Who is "people"? Exactly one poster in this thread brought up Dan's unrelated opinions and was promptly blown off
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The Daily Dot: Why did Netflix erase the queerness of ‘Evangelion’? (Spoilers)
- Thread starter Deleted member 3812
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...these are very different groups of people, is the thing?
Sure, you might see some slight overlap. But do you really think, speaking on a broader level, that the people who whine about the slightest bit of localization, perceived "censorship", etc. are the same people that are criticizing something because they think there's queer erasure? Because they absolutely aren't.
What you're seeing is like... the opposite sides of fandom? Of course they want different things, haha. I don't want to be mean, but it's very silly to me to act like this is somehow hypocritical when it only seems that way because you're generalizing so much.
Mate, I flat out didn't exist in the context of your post. No sense in arguing semantics.
The word sect has two meanings in Japanese - one refers to a militant left wing movement such as the New Left: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Left_in_Japan and the other is the traditional meaning of the word as in English. I'm not sure there was intentional malice in the translation but I do believe it was wrong to translate it as leftist terrorists rather than the regular definition in other languages.
I don't think Netflix has a say in this translation, from all indications, this new English translation was commissioned by Khara. The guy has been working as a contracted translator for Khara for over a decade.
I think it's ridiculous to call it straight washing when the scene is gay as fuuuuuuuuuuuck and simply removing the L-word doesn't change that. I think that's erasure in it's own right, to pretend something isn't gay if it doesn't drop the L-bomb. It's not like they pulled a Funimation-Dub Dragon Maid and had a character literally say "no homo" when that wasn't in the script.
I know that there are different people asking for different things. My point is, when translators try to adapt it for their target audience, people complain, when they take a more literal approach, again, people complain. There's no winning there, just accept the work knowing there are other takes.
I'm just giving my take on the debacle. I'm not a supporter of literal translations because I feel they're too dry and often misses the mark with nuances, as with this instance. On the other hand, I think a literal translation such as this one is useful for comparing the original dialogue, as well as ADV's translation for those who one to delve deeper into the meaning of the show.
Did you read the article? A good portion of it talks about people digging up his other interests and trying to make him out to be some right-wing lolicon. The posts pointing it out on Twitter are often passed around, leading people to jump to conclusions. While the lolicon part is correct, people are trying to create an impression of his political leanings as an explanation of reasoning behind the translation choices and I don't think it's correct.
I suppose, but I don't think it was Netflix who hired the guy.
I did. The level of discourse on Era about this is at a much higher level than the Twitter conversations imo, which I why I asked who you're referring to.
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Sorry, I was referring primarily to the article and the general outrage on the broader internet in my original post. I'm not entirely up to date with the debate here.
You misunderstand what i mean by default (which i admit, isn't the most accurate term for me to use)
Firstly, you're entitled to nothing. That's the problem with fandom.
And the impact of the art isn't lost with this new translation. (or any in the future to come) All you have to do is look in the disscution thread to see that.
You're arguing for nostalgia, which isn't the same thing.
And just to make myself clear. I like the ADV dub. I'm just not going to put it on a pedestal.
Have you talked about you experience in this thread ?
If you hadn't, i think you should.
I'm really enjoying how people new to the series are getting on with it.
If you don't mind me asking, why do you think it's straight-washing ? Because apart from that line, while yes, as Kittens McMittens (as well as others) have pointed out, it removes the directness from what Kawrou is saying. It doesn't remove the homoerotic aspect of their relationship at all.
You'd have to re-write (as well as re-animate) parts of the series and films, to do that.
I listened to the waypoint pod about them being hyped for the rerelease and how they were going to have ongoing episodes talking about the show. They specifically said no spoilers past the first two episodes and then 45 minutes in Austin Walker drops that shinji is gay and how he is finding his sexuality through out the series.
I was on episode 12 at that point. Shinji had just "expanded" when Asuka and misato were bathing on the other side of the wall as he's tossing them soap. Don't fucking spoil huge character developments in a podcast you say your not going to spoil shit in. Fucking Austin... I was halfway through this when you dropped that bomb.
Sorry to bitch in this thread everyone. It is kinda germane to the thread.
I was on episode 12 at that point. Shinji had just "expanded" when Asuka and misato were bathing on the other side of the wall as he's tossing them soap. Don't fucking spoil huge character developments in a podcast you say your not going to spoil shit in. Fucking Austin... I was halfway through this when you dropped that bomb.
Sorry to bitch in this thread everyone. It is kinda germane to the thread.
You haven't really been spoiled as much as you think if that helps. Just keep going and you'll find out.
I think you need to take a closer look at what I said. I didn't say I'm entitled to anything; I said that I feel about as entitled to change how the work is interpreted as the original creator is -- which is to say the complete opposite: I don't feel entitled at all. That's the reality to contend with when you have a work that's been in the public consciousness for as long as something like EVA; it takes on a life of its own, and it starts to mean something to a particular bloc of people. For what it's worth, I'm not some EVA mega-fan or something; I saw a version of it when I was 14 or 15, and have watched the movies since, but I'd probably struggle to come up with the names of minor characters in it. But I certainly do have a preference between the versions I've seen here, and would opine that the Netflix version is mostly inferior, but that's neither here nor there.
Now, I would argue that insofar as the new translation contributes to queer erasure, that at the very least impacts the art (negatively, in my opinion) even if it doesn't reduce the piece on a more holistic level. The versions aren't different enough to bring nostalgia into the equation, though. We're looking at a few changes that either rank as mostly irrelevant, or ones that -- at their worst reading -- reduce gay overtones in a character. There's absolutely value in watching NGE in whatever version is readily available, and I'd rather have a version of it available than no version, but it's not "gatekeeping" or hand-waved nostalgia that would have me cleanly land in a camp that isn't thrilled with the new translation and presentation.
Oh I finished the series. I binged the last 14 or so over the next two nights.
A question about end of Evangelion though. I haven't watched it but I ended up reading the wiki about it and it said that it starts with shinji masterbating next to Asuka when she's recovering in that hospital. Is that true or did someone edit the wiki? And if that's true did anno change his sexual orientation in the movie or is shinji bi? And why would he be doing that. Like the end of the TV series was already confusing and came at you super fast so I wanted a bit of clarification.
I had to take a break after powering through the last episodes.
Ahh, i see.
Then i fully and completely apologise for the misunderstanding (which is my fault)
It's no problem. I'm happy people even have an option of watching it, since right now it's prohibitively difficult to (legally) view the movies or the show. I'm happy for everyone who is getting to see it for a first time.
This whole discussion for me just seems off.
Not because of the legitimacy of "straight-washing", but because everyone treats this as a cultural discussion when it should be a linguistic discussion. If the source was any other language than Japanese, we wouldn't be having those articles and threads in this way. But because 99.9% of people participiating in the discussion don't speak, read or write a single letter of Japanese we end up with endless posts about the implications and outrage over the resulting message of this translation.
Here is for starters what JDic says about the word suki 好き:
As you can see this has a rather broad usage. It can be used to describe whether you would like ice-cream or cake for dessert, or it can be used when confessing your love. The word is so common, it has been translated a billion times in all kinds of media, but there is no sure-fire 100% translation that works every time. It is always about context, so if anything we should be looking for similar situations and scenes in similar media and see how they were translated instead of reposting the same three screenshots all the time.
Not because of the legitimacy of "straight-washing", but because everyone treats this as a cultural discussion when it should be a linguistic discussion. If the source was any other language than Japanese, we wouldn't be having those articles and threads in this way. But because 99.9% of people participiating in the discussion don't speak, read or write a single letter of Japanese we end up with endless posts about the implications and outrage over the resulting message of this translation.
Here is for starters what JDic says about the word suki 好き:
As you can see this has a rather broad usage. It can be used to describe whether you would like ice-cream or cake for dessert, or it can be used when confessing your love. The word is so common, it has been translated a billion times in all kinds of media, but there is no sure-fire 100% translation that works every time. It is always about context, so if anything we should be looking for similar situations and scenes in similar media and see how they were translated instead of reposting the same three screenshots all the time.
As someone already posted:
There is no "straight-washing" happening here. The VHS release of the subbed version by ADV back in the day also translated the line as "like". This also has nothing at all do do with Netflix. Time to move on.
...I don't get what that picture is supposed to prove?
The translation with the word "love" is better writing, truer to the spirit of the scene, and has been the definitive interpretation for quite some time. The existence of a previous translation that used the word "like" doesn't meaningfully change anything.
Those aren't mutually exclusive, though.
What needs to be understood here is that the "love" translation is the starting point from which most people are approaching this. Using "like," along with all the other changes, feels like a retreat into literalism for the purpose of opening up the possible range of interpretation.
In the abstract, "I like you" and "I love you" can both be either romantic or platonic. In this context, though, they aren't fully interchangeable, and it makes a difference which one is used.
Now, as I've said a couple times in this thread, I also believe that these scenes are still very, very gay. But the new translation can still feel like an attempt at straightwashing, like someone made those changes through a heteronormative lens.
I do see where you're coming from and I think that's true if you're intent to present the media as a media, but if your purpose is also provide insight into Japanese language and culture then the awkward translation and grammar is essential. It just depends on what your aims are.
I know exactly what you mean cheers.
My counter is that people who consume this type of media either already understand those differences and don't need or want them to be translated.
This whole discussion for me just seems off.
Not because of the legitimacy of "straight-washing", but because everyone treats this as a cultural discussion when it should be a linguistic discussion. If the source was any other language than Japanese, we wouldn't be having those articles and threads in this way. But because 99.9% of people participiating in the discussion don't speak, read or write a single letter of Japanese we end up with endless posts about the implications and outrage over the resulting message of this translation.
Here is for starters what JDic says about the word suki 好き:
As you can see this has a rather broad usage. It can be used to describe whether you would like ice-cream or cake for dessert, or it can be used when confessing your love. The word is so common, it has been translated a billion times in all kinds of media, but there is no sure-fire 100% translation that works every time. It is always about context, so if anything we should be looking for similar situations and scenes in similar media and see how they were translated instead of reposting the same three screenshots all the time.
Full disclosure, I do not really speak Japanese but I have spent a considerable amount of time in Japan.
好きis kind of a tricky one. It usually translates as 'like'. It's frequently used in romantic situations - i.e. between couples. It's sort of characteristic of a Japanese tendency to avoiding PDAs and over-expression of emotion, I suppose.
愛するis the more literal 'love'. It's pretty much only used in romantic situations but is actually rarely used between couples.
So, you can kind of split the difference. Literally, it should be translated as 'like', but tonally it kind of conveys something a bit more than 'liking' (but a bit less than 'loving', as it were).
I'd think most people don't want their enjoyment of a narrative subjected to unnecessary constraints simply for the purpose of maintaining some kind of idealized notion of genealogical purity. And if they were that passionate about that, they'd probably feel compelled to consume it in its original language.
This. I get that it's a subtle thing, but it still feels like regress. It may not be straight washing, but it's 'straight-washy', and most of the arguments to the contrary don't really hold up (the translator saying that ambiguity is exciting when it really isn't in the context of queer representation, rendering suki as either like or love in different cases with no apparent rationale as to why, except that one is between people of the same sex and the other of the opposite sex respectively, etc.) Life basically conditions queer people to be hyper-vigilant to this stuff, yet despite that you'd be surprised how uncommon false flags are, because the sad fact is it does happen all the god damn time.
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Straightwashing as a phrase derives it's roots from the term whitewashing, which is an absolute erasure. A lot of people are treating this change from Love to Like as absolute erasure, and this term is the result of that. That's extremely problematic. You don't need to defend yourself or others if that's not what you're doing and you also think that's problematic as well.
If we're actually going with the whitewashing metaphor, then whitewash as a coating is also archetypally a cheap, superficial, or unsatisfying attempt at coverage or concealment. Just saying.
Not even whitewashing has to mean complete erasure. Just think to the casting of Zoe Saldana as Nina Simone. Saldana is a black woman, but for a lot of people it felt like she was casted for the purpose of making Nina Simone more appealing to a white audience.
To the extent that absolute erasure has been brought up, I also disagree this is an example of that. But something doesn't have to be absolute erasure to be worth criticizing.
^
I would assume the the existence of a previous translation using like instead of love would show that the translator or Khara isn't just changing things to make it "less gay", but the internet has already turned this into something else.
Why? It's not in question that "like" is a plausible translation, and it's certainly not shocking that this or that version of the series (especially in the 90s...) went with it. It's funny that you're scapegoating "the internet" when the evidence you've presented can only possibly seem compelling with some serious confirmation bias.
The Platinum translation was an improvement over the VHS translation. We're now in 2019, and the "love" translation has been definitive for years. That's the context in which people are criticizing the Netflix version.
If you think that was what I was saying then I think you need to read what I said again.
...worth criticizing on the basis of being straight-washy, as umop 3pisdn put it. I know you aren't saying that the only way something can ever possibly be worth criticizing is if it results in absolute erasure. :P
And I'm also not saying you shouldn't criticize it if you think it's minimizing the themes. You should absolutely do that.
What I'm saying is that the people treating it as absolute erasure are engaging in some really problematic lines of thinking, ableit I said that in a pretty clunky way. What's there is super, super gay. To say that the removal of "Love" removes that gayness is pretty hostile to the themes and presentation of the show. It's also a bad minsdet to have for representation.
Personally I thought the use of the word "Love" as a starting point in English was pretty creepy considering the characters barely knew each other, and were teenagers. In our language, "Like" is a word teenagers use in subsittute of "Love" and seems to feel more natural in absense of adequate buildup. But that's honestly beside the point and kind of irrelevant.
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As someone who never saw the original translation before watching it the whole "grace" thing made more sense in the long run. Even though those 2 lines were changed you could very clearly tell there were still feelings between the both of them that weren't strictly platonic.
The character turns out to be an Angel so his use of "grace" didn't seem all that odd to me
Gonna be honest, I hate the new translation, but I don't think replacing love with like makes the scene suddenly not have gay undertones. Shinji and Kaworu are literally butt naked sitting 5 feet from each other and Kaworu tries holding hands with Shinji. Like, I have a hard time seeing the gay undertones not being present.
Rather, I dislike it because love has the gay connotation, but it also has the unconditional love connotation. When Shinji said "no one ever told me they loved me before", that goes far beyond romance. It goes back to issues with how he and his father relate to one another, and how his relationship with those at Nerv aren't giving him what he really needs: unconditional love. And this is present all throughout the series, and is especially present in End of Eva. It's why Asuka caressing Shinji's cheek at the end is so powerful to me, because Shinji has finally found unconditional love from someone who has the full capacity to hurt him back (since he's strangling her and has ever right to make that stop).
Rather, I dislike it because love has the gay connotation, but it also has the unconditional love connotation. When Shinji said "no one ever told me they loved me before", that goes far beyond romance. It goes back to issues with how he and his father relate to one another, and how his relationship with those at Nerv aren't giving him what he really needs: unconditional love. And this is present all throughout the series, and is especially present in End of Eva. It's why Asuka caressing Shinji's cheek at the end is so powerful to me, because Shinji has finally found unconditional love from someone who has the full capacity to hurt him back (since he's strangling her and has ever right to make that stop).
You're being really weird refusing to let this go. The italian poster said "The translator is an idiot". The person you're replying to (808s & Villainy ) is just clarifying that it is probably a different translator (because it doesn't have the same mistranslation) than the thread topic. That's all. You seem to have completely misread their posts
Subtext turned into text when people had literally 20 years to chew on it and discuss it. Future depictions of Kaworu and Shinjis relationship has als colored peoples view, look at how they're depicted in 3.0 vs the original series.
I think all we are seeing here is the original ambiguity bro g returned even theough everyone already knows whats up.
I think all we are seeing here is the original ambiguity bro g returned even theough everyone already knows whats up.
The original translations were flat out wrong with the "grace" line. The new version did the right thing there.
I haven't seen the thing but if someone can post the Japanese version I can interpret it real quick lol.
Assuming you're not taking the piss.
Here's the only version i could find in Japanese that's on YT. It's subbed, and the video is poor quality. The line is at the very very end.
Imo, basically 好き(suki) in that context would be closer to "like" (in a romantic sense), kinda like "crushing on", and 好意(koui) could be "love"....but not strictly in a romantic sense. So at first I think the Shinji guy is confused like "does he mean I deserve love in a human sense or a romantic sense", but then Kaworu basically confesses his love for him.
I think love works tbh. I always see people making a big deal out of "I love you" in American media though, like it's super serious. If people get that "like" comes with "romantically", then like works as well.
Does it transition well in translation to our culture? Does it mean the same thing? Is it integral to the plot?
Wow, what translation is this? That's terrible.
好意 (koui) shouldn't be translated as "love" (Khara used "grace" and I thought ADV used "regard" and "empathy"). The whole point is that Shinji isn't quite grasping what Kaworu is saying, so he dumbs it down to 好き(suki - "like"/"love").
Afterwards Shinji only uses the simple word when talking about what Kaworu said to him, which is something that the new Khara translation changed for an unknown reason and we probably should be talking about that since that's an actual weird change, but here we are, stuck forever in the like/love hole...
I was just confused by 808s initial reply to TronLight, because it seemed to address an implication that was never made. TronLight initially asked whether the gay censorship extends to the English subs (as opposed to just the dub script) and then started talking about the botched Italian translation as a separate issue that was unrelated to the topic at hand, other than the broader point of Netflix's poor handling of the localization in multiple languages. I didn't take that as TL implying that it could have been the same translator in English and in Italian, whereas 808s reply to them read as if that were the case.
I just tried to lay out my thought process and at the same time understand 808s', as it seemed that we were talking past each other. I'm sorry if trying to clear the initial confusion makes me weird.
Now, if i've misread their posts, i suppose i'll take solace in the fact that it fits right into the topic of the thread.
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LOL. I don't know, it was the only vid that i saw that had the scene in Japanese.
I don't care about the japanese creators pushing for a more "accurate" translation, if tiny little ADV can tell Gainax no on some things, a billion dollar corp like Netflix can also.
The dub wasn't bad but this change is a big stain on it, even ignoring it represents some form of queer representation in an era that had almost none, why would Shinji be suicidal in EOE because Kaworu said "i like you"
The dub wasn't bad but this change is a big stain on it, even ignoring it represents some form of queer representation in an era that had almost none, why would Shinji be suicidal in EOE because Kaworu said "i like you"
I meant what you said, of course they're different translators, it's just that they're both bad so I was bringing it up, I didn't want to take away from the main discussion.
"It has gone Berserk" should have been translated into something like "It has lost control", because it's not an italian word and it also isn't an well known english word, so it needs to be translated, but the italian translator chose to translate it into "It has entered fury state" which is a really stilted and poor translation.
I think that Berserk state is something that could be used in fantasy/science fiction to refer to cases of violent rage as a way to add flavour to the writing (unless there is a better word in the language) since it is a reference to this https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berserkr. Is more a myth than just a word.
Yeah but not many people know that and Evangelion is all about christian imagery and not norse mythology.