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Oct 26, 2017
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Here's a question. Is there a YouTube video documentary on how games are made in dev kits as thorough as possible? I'd also love to see how those old SGI units were used for games. I feel like a lot of dev kits are just never truly shown off other than the bare minimum it feels like. Could be for legal reasons.
 
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Here's a question. Is there a YouTube video documentary on how games are made in dev kits as thorough as possible? I'd also love to see how those old SGI units were used for games. I feel like a lot of dev kits are just never truly shown off other than the bare minimum it feels like. Could be for legal reasons.

here's a neat one from one of my friends:



Here's a small demo of a Sega Dreamcast integrated dev kit I built myself:



A series of videos walking you through the homebrew Sega UMDK:

 
Oct 25, 2017
12,192
This makes me wonder:
Was the acquisition of new development hardware part of the reason extra gadgets (32X, 64DD, etc) never took off?
 
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Sony sold a homebrew PlayStation development kit for $750 USD that could work with home PCs.


I'm guessing you'd still need a beefy home computing setup to do "AAA" development.

The Net Yaroze is extremely stripped down. It doesn't offer any hardware debugging, no official sony libraries, no assembler, no extra ram for development overhead, no special software for playstation tools, etc. It was basically just a retail sony PSX that could be linked to a PC and sent executables. Also, the net yaroze couldn't access any of the CD-Rom hardware, so the entire game had to fit in 2 MB of ram and 1 MB of VRAM.
 

JahIthBer

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Jan 27, 2018
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These devkit set ups, so god damn expensive, i think this is the reason we had more PC exclusives back in the day lol.
 

Speely

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Oct 25, 2017
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What an amazing read this thread has been. I just learned some fundamental elements of game development that were previously 100% unknown to me.
 

MrCunningham

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Nov 15, 2017
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Nice info. Those SGI workstations were expensive back then. After Donkey Kong Country became a smash hit, it was like publishers/ developers were all investing in SGI machines. But SGi workstations hit their peak with the 32bit consoles as well as the N64. But those SGI workstations were really supplanted by the fast evolution of PC video cards and CPU's. These days high end PC's are becoming reasonably cheap, the threadripper and 3900/3950 CPU's are only making things even cheaper.

I wonder what PS1 dev kits cost in comparison, have any idea?


Again: This is why things like steam were mindblowing and revolutionary. It provided a way to get your game from your bed room to the same "shelf" as AAA blockbusters, with zero development cost. It costs $100 flat rate to get a game on steam these days.

All that lead to "indie" programs at the console manufacturers, starting with XBLIG on the Xbox 360. With these indie programs, the console manufacturers will allow people who register as developers to relax their home consoles restrictions to use them as stripped down dev kits. This dramatically lowered the cost and barrier to entry.

it's legitimately a great thing that it's easier to get games out there and made at much, much cheaper costs. If you still want a big, high end devkit for AAA development, though, those still exist and are different than the kits you'll use for an indie game.


One thing that people tend to forget, or maybe not know about. is the huge affect that Apple had on indie gaming in 2008. back in 2008, it was much harder to get published on Steam than it is now. Valve use to curate their store front, and they were very picky about what got in to their servers.

But in 2008, Apple opened up the App store on iOS. I remember back when they were calling out for developers to support iOS, and they would basically take anything with little to no submission process at all. Apple wanted to flood iOS with as many games and apps as possible on day one. They were even boasting through PR that the app store would launch with more games than the DS and PSP combined. The majority of them made by small independent teams. Which did cause a flood of upstart indie developers to jump to their platform. In 2008 the App Store was the easiest platform to publish on. I think the development software was basically free as well. And Apple actually gave quite a bit of exposure to indie games through TV adverts. I remember the iPod Touch commercials, that were advertised directly a kids, pre-teens, teens. They would feature all sorts of indie games in the commercials, with the odd title from Sega or EA slipped in as well.


Those commercials were seen by millions on a regular basis. Apple would advertise the odd-ball random indy game at their Apple Events, which would give them sales boosts from the free advertising. Even the Unity engine gained traction on iOS. The first Unity powered games that I ever played were on the iOS platform. And they were small titles with 2D graphics. Android back then wasn't really much of a gaming platform at all. The Play Store didn't come into fruition until 2012. The popularity of indy gaming on iOS was what lead Valve to create their greenlight program and open up their storefront to just about anyone.

Indy gaming was also on the verge of taking off on pre-smart mobile phones. But it wasn't until iOS where it started to become a big thing.
 
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Oct 29, 2017
4,721
Oh neat, I also have a cost breakdown of an N64 dev kit as well:

SGI O2 - $25000
Softimage/Alias Power Animator - $20000
System Development PartnerN64-PC - $3600
Partner-N64PC PCI Interface board - $350
IS-Viewer NUS - $1600
Control Deck Assembly1 - $200
Control Deck Assembly2 - $200
4 Meg Memory - $20
PC Sound Tools - $1500
Flash Rom Gang Writer - $2425
256M Flash Cartridge - $461
16k Eeprom - $2
IC 7101 CIC - $1
N64 Disk Drive + 5 disks - $ 650
Additional Disk for N64 Disk Drive - $20

Total Cost: $56,029

Like the Saturn, they also recommend an Indigo 2 for 3D modeling.

Wouldn't you need to get a Softimage license for the other platforms anyway? Back in 1994-1996 it was basically your only real option if you wanted a professional 3D modelling suite anyway.

Also, couldn't you use an Indy, or an Indigo instead of an O2? I recall hearing that the N64 pre-launch dev board was a plug-in for the Indy/Indigo?
 
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Wouldn't you need to get a Softimage license for the other platforms anyway? Back in 1994-1996 it was basically your only real option if you wanted a professional 3D modelling suite anyway.

The Sega Saturn devkit comes with a sega built modeling suite called SGL. In addition to being a library object you could link into your executable, it was also a suite of tools for MAC and Windows 95.

EDIT: Actually looking through the Cart.Dev book, it also came with a SoftImage license! Neat!

Also, couldn't you use an Indy, or an Indigo instead of an O2? I recall hearing that the N64 pre-launch dev board was a plug-in for the Indy/Indigo?

The N64 dev breakdown recommends an Indigio 2. But an O2 was way, way cheaper.
 
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How many devkits did a developer need to make a game on average?

devkits are used to deploy the game code, assets, etc, and also to do realtime step-through debugging on the console. So anybody who touches any part of production will need some sort of kit -- programmers, sound team, graphics team, debugging, QA, etc.
 

Atolm

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Oct 25, 2017
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My conclusion is that since Sony was able to sell Net Yaroze in reasonable quantities, kits for PSX were much cheaper, which may have had an impact back then.
 
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My conclusion is that since Sony was able to sell Net Yaroze in reasonable quantities, kits for PSX were much cheaper, which may have had an impact back then.

Net Yaroze is in no way suitable for retail game development. The actual PsyQ Sony PSX devkits were still tens of thousands of dollars.
 

Ninge

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Oct 26, 2017
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"Development" is how console makers make their money. The console market exists, in so much that it creates a market for them to sell their equipment and licensing for. They make money from every game developed for their ecosystem, not just games sold.

Yeah this is totally wrong. If you sign up for ID@Xbox you'll get two free devkits and unity pro for free - the only other thing you'll need is a PC and some talent ;) Nobody is making money off development kits.
 

MegaMix

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Oct 27, 2017
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Yeah this is totally wrong. If you sign up for ID@Xbox you'll get two free devkits and unity pro for free - the only other thing you'll need is a PC and some talent ;) Nobody is making money off development kits.
Competition from Steam and just the gaming market in a 20 year period in general may have changed things.
 
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Yeah this is totally wrong. If you sign up for ID@Xbox you'll get two free devkits and unity pro for free - the only other thing you'll need is a PC and some talent ;) Nobody is making money off development kits.

that's their independent developer program. Their full devkits are not the same as what you get at ID@Xbox. Nor are the development fees indies pay the same as retail releases.
 

Ninge

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that's their independent developer program. Their full devkits are not the same as what you get at ID@Xbox. Nor are the development fees indies pay the same as retail releases.

They are exactly the same. On Xbox a game is a game, we don't treat independent developers any differently to traditional publishers. Same hardware, same software.
 
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They are exactly the same. On Xbox a game is a game, we don't treat independent developers any differently to traditional publishers. Same hardware, same software.

Absolutely isn't true. Using a retail xbox one for development purposes, by nature of the hardware, restricts you to retail memory. The commercial XDKs have more ram for debugging overhead. Example: The Xbox One X SDKs have 24 GB GDDR5 ram.

EDIT: To clarify, I'm talking about the "every console is a devkit" stuff.
 
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Ninge

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Absolutely isn't true. Using a retail xbox one for development purposes, by nature of the hardware, restricts you to retail memory. The commercial XDKs have more ram for debugging overhead. Example: The Xbox One X SDKs have 24 GB GDDR5 ram.

EDIT: To clarify, I'm talking about the "every console is a devkit" stuff.

Ah I see the confusion - The "every console is a devkit" stuff is talking about the Xbox creators program, it's a seperate app you download on a retail kit. That is not the same as ID@Xbox. The Creators Program is really for hobby or student development. Games published through creators go into their own section of the store. ID@Xbox absolutely provides full devkits, and ID@Xbox games live in the full retail store.
 
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Ah I see the confusion - The "every console is a devkit" stuff is talking about the Xbox creators program, it's a seperate app you download on a retail kit. That is not the same as ID@Xbox. The Creators Program is really for hobby or student development. Games published through creators go into their own section of the store. ID@Xbox absolutely provides full devkits, and ID@Xbox games live in the full retail store.

so the creators program is more like the old XBLIG program, and ID@Xbox is a different program?

So then, I'm a registered company, with game development under my belt, I can register for ID@Xbox and microsoft will send me a full debug unit, no strings attached? Is it like the old days where it technically does not belong to me and I have to return it after the dev period?
 

Ninge

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so the creators program is more like the old XBLIG program, and ID@Xbox is a different program?

So then, I'm a registered company, with game development under my belt, I can register for ID@Xbox and microsoft will send me a full debug unit, no strings attached? Is it like the old days where it technically does not belong to me and I have to return it after the dev period?

Yes and no - let's take this to DM ;) but basically you can sign up at Xbox.com/ID
 

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Hahah the SGI workstation recommendations reminded me that we used SGI workstations to model and build levels for OG PlayStation games which is still crazy to me.
 
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Hahah the SGI workstation recommendations reminded me that we used SGI workstations to model and build levels for OG PlayStation games which is still crazy to me.

Part of the reason I'm getting this for free, is because I nabbed someone else an SGI Indigo 2 last saturday:

EJhaHswWsAAFfDP


5vvrH45.jpg


cyc7cuF.jpg


I'm actually gonna grab an SGI O2 next weekend, didn't think I'd have a reason to own one last time haha. Figure it'll pair nicely with the Cart.Dev.

That indigo 2 was a $100k machine at one point, though. More expensive than a Ferrari at the time.
 

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The size of that thing!

We only had O2's but everyone on the team had them other than the coders. Madness!
 

Cheerilee

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How many devkits did a developer need to make a game on average?
I have zero firsthand knowledge, but I saw some devs talking about devkits once.

Apparently everyone working on the game should ideally have a devkit. But if you're trying to make a launch game for the platform, then maybe you were only able to buy one handmade prototype dev kit, and you consider yourself lucky to get that much. So then your entire team crowds around the dev kit and tries to figure out how it works as a communal activity. The instructions are sometimes handwritten in Japanese, and are just a collection of "Oh, you need to know this. Oh shit, you need to know this too!" without very much in the way of structure or editing or streamlining. Eventually people figure out what kind of work can be done on their PCs back at their desks, but everything they make needs to be tested through the dev kit, so people start lining up to try and get a turn at using the dev kit. Maybe there's some more work you can do on your PC, but if you don't know if the thing you're doing is correct, then you're just wasting your time running down the wrong road. So there's a HUGE bottleneck as people try to get on the devkit. The lack of devkits at this point is literally costing your company money through lost productivity.

Eventually your boss is able to buy a second devkit, and a third, and a fourth. Eventually some important people get to work with their own dedicated dev kit, but there are always some people sharing a dev kit, because dev kits are expensive, and the lowest-ranking people at the company aren't worth the expense. You can just go share with Steve. Two people can share a dev kit without tripping over each other that much.

And each new dev kit that your company picks up is better and more refined than the ones that were bought earlier. So the first dev kits become the worst dev kits, the ones that nobody wants to work on. Unless you have just been promoted from sharing a dev kit to having your own dev kit. They might drop the old piece of junk on your desk, but it's your piece of junk now, which makes it amazing.
 
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The size of that thing!

We only had O2's but everyone on the team had them other than the coders. Madness!

That Indigo 2 is 19" x 19" x 7" big, weighs like 70 lbs. It's *huge*

The O2 by comparison is like the size of a toaster lol. They have some Iris Personals as well, but I think the O2 is more modern.

Do you happen to know what the unique monitor connection SGI machines uses is? Can I buy a converter to get them working with a VGA monitor?
 
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I have zero firsthand knowledge, but I saw some devs talking about devkits once.

Apparently everyone working on the game should ideally have a devkit. But if you're trying to make a launch game for the platform, then maybe you were only able to buy one handmade prototype dev kit, and you consider yourself lucky to get that much. So then your entire team crowds around the dev kit and tries to figure out how it works as a communal activity. The instructions are sometimes handwritten in Japanese, and are just a collection of "Oh, you need to know this. Oh shit, you need to know this too!" without very much in the way of structure or editing or streamlining. Eventually people figure out what kind of work can be done on their PCs back at their desks, but everything they make needs to be tested through the dev kit, so people start lining up to try and get a turn at using the dev kit. Maybe there's some more work you can do on your PC, but if you don't know if the thing you're doing is correct, then you're just wasting your time running down the wrong road. So there's a HUGE bottleneck as people try to get on the devkit. The lack of devkits at this point is literally costing your company money through lost productivity.

Eventually your boss is able to buy a second devkit, and a third, and a fourth. Eventually some important people get to work with their own dedicated dev kit, but there are always some people sharing a dev kit, because dev kits are expensive, and the lowest-ranking people at the company aren't worth the expense. You can just go share with Steve. Two people can share a dev kit without tripping over each other that much.

And each new dev kit that your company picks up is better and more refined than the ones that were bought earlier. So the first dev kits become the worst dev kits, the ones that nobody wants to work on. Unless you have just been promoted from sharing a dev kit to having your own dev kit. They might drop the old piece of junk on your desk, but it's your piece of junk now, which makes it amazing.

I know a lot of people who worked on Atari Jaguar development, and the stories they've told me about the Jag SDK are honestly amazing, in all the bad ways. Documentation is an enormous part of an SDK, the actual hardware part is pretty rote. Being real, the hardware here is basically massively overpriced, no way was Saturn debugging hardware worth $70k in 1995, but they were the only game in town. The SGI workstation.... yeah, that was probably worth $100k, but the hardware to debug a saturn? No way. All a debugger really needs to do is be able to issue a non-maskable interrupt to the CPU to halt execution, read the registers, dump memory, and probably have a way to upload things to the console. Most retail consoles have some vestigial form of this built in already.

What really separates SDKs are the tools and resources and documentation. Microsoft has basically been the king of this world since around 1995, that is what this old meme is about:



People focus on him being sweaty and goofy in the video, but miss what the presentation actually was. Microsoft went all in on building world-class tools for their platforms, amazing documentation, stuff like that. Valve currently does similar stuff with their development libraries. I'd say Microsoft and Valve are pretty much the best in class in this field today.

Part of the reason the Saturn was so much harder to develop for than the Playstation was because Sega's SDK shipped with poor documentation, often in japanese, with poor tools. So much had to be remade by hand from devs. By contrast, Sony shipped an amazing, easy to use C compiler and SDK, with tons of english documentation, that made working with the PSX a snap. Consider this -- to this day, there is still no real homebrew Playstation dev kit, primarily because the official tools were so advanced and great. Even today, if you want to make playstation homebrew, your best bet is to grab a PSX SDK. By contrast, there are tons of Sega open source devkits out there, because as time went on, the cross products Megadrive dev kit, for example, was long in the tooth compared to, say, a modern UMDK.

Anywho, back to the Jaguar: It basically shipped with no documentation. The Devkit itself was full of bugs, the hardware itself actually did not work correctly. For example, the atari jaguar actually has a super advanced controller port, it works like a parallel port and can do all sort of two way communication. Known as the Atari Advanced Joystick port, it was honestly one of the most advanced communication protocols on any console for many, many years. EXCEPT, the early launch Jaguars had a hardware bug which made reading in two directions from the joystick near impossible. So the very feature of the joystick ports, wouldn't reliably work between revisions of the console, so no dev could ever use it. On top of this, different revisions of the console actually run at different speeds. Certain games will run faster on certain consoles.

So when you got a Jaguar SDK, they dump a very bare bones system, with no documentation, that didn't work, and told developers to "make it work" and pump out games in like 6 months time. Insane that any jaguar games ever got made.
 

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That Indigo 2 is 19" x 19" x 7" big, weighs like 70 lbs. It's *huge*

The O2 by comparison is like the size of a toaster lol. They have some Iris Personals as well, but I think the O2 is more modern.

Do you happen to know what the unique monitor connection SGI machines uses is? Can I buy a converter to get them working with a VGA monitor?
No, I don't, sorry. I do remember it was my first big (and dual!) monitor dev experience, the monitors were huge! Having to learn UNIX commands was a real headfuck and seeing someone remote into your workstation to fix my schoolboy errors was also mindblowing. And all for sub-100 poly modelling XD

What a time to be alive!
 

XboxCowdry

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Ridiculous. How would small developers afford that kind of a kit? Only if business people realized subscription business models back then. Sega could have rented these kits out to mid/small developers and would have had more native games for the system itself.

Cheaper than the N64 full development kits or the early cost of the PS2 Performance Analyzer I would imagine ;). If you were a small 3rd party you no doubt have gone for the Psy-Q system which came in at £3,000 to £7000 (for the full spec) or use the SNASM2 kit.
Even the basic PS development kit wasn't cheap coming in at £12,000 for the twin ISA card.




I
 
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No, I don't, sorry. I do remember it was my first big (and dual!) monitor dev experience, the monitors were huge! Having to learn UNIX commands was a real headfuck and seeing someone remote into your workstation to fix my schoolboy errors was also mindblowing. And all for sub-100 poly modelling XD

What a time to be alive!



Literally the computer they are using in this scene. Also, the UI in mario 64 is based off of the UI in that scene, which is actually a real SGI Iris UI. Awesome, awesome stuff. When I go back and play with hardware of this era, it takes me back to when my dad and I were first getting heavy into computers. This was like 1994-ish, we had just built our first 486, right before we upgraded to a pentium-class Cyrix for Windows 95. Back then, there were no computer parts stores, and no real websites to order stuff from online. We had the internet since 1988, but BBSes just weren't for that kind of thing. But, living in Houston, we were lucky and there was a shop called MicroCache that sold, directly, PC equipment. The way it'd work is they'd put out a flyer with parts at their store, and you'd go and order from them, and then a week later, they'd have it in stock and you could pick it up. So you could buy PC parts bespoke, like motherboards, socketed RAM, weird cards, etc. We bought lots of stuff to make PCs at the time, but just as often would dive in and buy weird, off the wall crap, like super early cameras (before the "web" existed so they couldn't be webcams) or TV tuner cards or other strange things from that era that just didn't exist.

Through that scene, I met a guy who went on to be a developer on Deus Ex, and got to see his dev rig as he was working on Deus Ex and a bunch of other crazy stuff. All this stuff reminds me of that wild west time, going back to when it felt like the possibilities of computing we endless, and if you looked hard enough you could find some crazy hardware to play with out there.
 
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Cheaper than the N64 full development kits or the early cost of the PS2 Performance Analyzer I would imagine ;). If you were a small 3rd party you no doubt have gone for the Psy-Q system which came in at £3,000 to £7000 (for the full spec) or use the SNASM2 kit.
Even the basic PS development kit wasn't cheap coming in at £12,000 for the twin ISA card.

I knew some people who built their own Megadrive dev kits from those days. Down in brazil, well after the MD market should have died. They used a xilinx fpga to mirror writes across the bus to the genesis hardware, so they could stop execution and examine memory through the FPGA. They said that the FPGA hardware to do that back around 1996 was crazy expensive, though.

That's actually the same method the UMDK uses, too. Funny how I put together two UMDKs a couple of years back for under $100, when 25 years ago, this tech would have been worth tens of thousands of dollars.
 

Mantrox

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Developing for these older platforms was\is a REAL challenge.
A really obtuse kind of puzzle.
I'm gonna get there one of these days *shakes fist*

I want to sit on time travelling santa's lap and ask for one of these kit's.
dxKAltqL5nu5zsKQCL9fFg_img_1.jpg


Those SGI machines look kinda cool.
 

XboxCowdry

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I knew some people who built their own Megadrive dev kits from those days. Down in brazil, well after the MD market should have died. They used a xilinx fpga to mirror writes across the bus to the genesis hardware, so they could stop execution and examine memory through the FPGA. They said that the FPGA hardware to do that back around 1996 was crazy expensive, though.

CORE Design used to use an Atari ST to talk the Mega Drive and Delux Paint on the Amiga to handle their Mega Drive art at the start.CORE also said too much was made of the Saturn tools. No toolchain was given to Mega Drive developers (other than a rubbish sound system) or any PC developer for any of the console generations . You just got on with it.

Funny how being hard to code for wanting the best tools and libraries went out with the window with the PS2; Then it was how great it was to code to metal and not have restricted access to the Hardware via the tools
 

RPTGB

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Here's a question. Is there a YouTube video documentary on how games are made in dev kits as thorough as possible? I'd also love to see how those old SGI units were used for games. I feel like a lot of dev kits are just never truly shown off other than the bare minimum it feels like. Could be for legal reasons.
The models and animation data would be exported in a format the target machine would use.
It's been a long long time since I got my hands dirty with Alias Poweranimator but I think we used to export our models as .ob's and the textures as .tiffs, then the coders would build and compile the hose files into whatever it was the PSX needed.
One of the days I'll get this damn DAT tape that's been in the corner of my office drawer for 20+ years looked at, there's all sorts of stuff on there from an unreleased title. ;)
 
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CORE Design used to use an Atari ST to talk the Mega Drive and Delux Paint on the Amiga to handle their Mega Drive art at the start.CORE also said too much was made of the Saturn tools. No toolchain was given to Mega Drive developers (other than a rubbish sound system) or any PC developer for any of the console generations . You just got on with it.

Funny how being hard to code for wanting the best tools and libraries went out with the window with the PS2; Then it was how great it was to code to metal and not have restricted access to the Hardware via the tools

I talk to Sarah Jane Avory on twitter about this stuff, as our interests align greatly (C64 + Sega CD + Jag CD development). Hearing her stories about Soul Star to the Jaguar blow my mind.

I have an Amiga 1200 that's all super charged for graphics creation on old systems, like the Megadrive. I could technically use Gimp -- and do, actually, for parts -- but part of the charm is making graphics on actual old hardware of the time. A few months ago, I recreated the intro to Fantasy Zone II DX in raw 68000 programming on the Amiga and Genesis, and used Deluxe Paint to handle the graphics:

Ds72jJaUcAANjgE.jpg


DtAI_xoVsAEFqrS


All that said, working with the hardware directly is a lot of fun, I love writing in pure ASM, but I have to admit working with the Dreamcast is so, so much better. All 3 SDKs, actually -- Katana, Windows CE, and the homebrew KOS. I've tried all 3 and they're all so easy to use.

Whats funny is that the Dreamcast has both ports of an ancient version of Direct X, AND an ancient version of OpenGL via GLdc. Both of which are so old now that they don't resemble the current iterations of either API in any way lol.
 

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Literally the computer they are using in this scene. Also, the UI in mario 64 is based off of the UI in that scene, which is actually a real SGI Iris UI. Awesome, awesome stuff. When I go back and play with hardware of this era, it takes me back to when my dad and I were first getting heavy into computers. This was like 1994-ish, we had just built our first 486, right before we upgraded to a pentium-class Cyrix for Windows 95. Back then, there were no computer parts stores, and no real websites to order stuff from online. We had the internet since 1988, but BBSes just weren't for that kind of thing. But, living in Houston, we were lucky and there was a shop called MicroCache that sold, directly, PC equipment. The way it'd work is they'd put out a flyer with parts at their store, and you'd go and order from them, and then a week later, they'd have it in stock and you could pick it up. So you could buy PC parts bespoke, like motherboards, socketed RAM, weird cards, etc. We bought lots of stuff to make PCs at the time, but just as often would dive in and buy weird, off the wall crap, like super early cameras (before the "web" existed so they couldn't be webcams) or TV tuner cards or other strange things from that era that just didn't exist.

Through that scene, I met a guy who went on to be a developer on Deus Ex, and got to see his dev rig as he was working on Deus Ex and a bunch of other crazy stuff. All this stuff reminds me of that wild west time, going back to when it felt like the possibilities of computing we endless, and if you looked hard enough you could find some crazy hardware to play with out there.

Haha that's reminded me that when I got into BBS based, modem DOOM Deathmatches, people would call me out for running it on a 486, slowing down their Pentium games :(

Like, latency wasn't the issue there, it was my fucking processor.
 

Bomi-Chan

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Nov 8, 2017
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How much do dev kits cost today? I'd be interested in comparing it. Or are games just developed on PCs and tested on actual consoles?
i think these days anyone can program for switch/ps4/xbox from their homes with no additional hardware. it comes down to the licencing.
when it comes to demanding games(AAA) then there kits, which still cost around 25k.

edit: misinformed. they still range in those regions around 50-100k.
unbelievable, that they still charge you this much.
 
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Haha that's reminded me that when I got into BBS based, modem DOOM Deathmatches, people would call me out for running it on a 486, slowing down their Pentium games :(

Like, latency wasn't the issue there, it was my fucking processor.

I remember when I finally saw doom available on BBSes, our brand-new, less-than-a-year-old 486 technically couldn't run it, and it blew my mind how fast PC tech was iterating. I can remember going down to the old man down the street's house and watching him play Doom on his desktop computer which was, in retrospect, kind of creepy because how the hell did I know that dude had Doom? Lol
 
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Dude who is getting the Indigo 2 is putting together a very impressive N64 devkit. He's the guy who wound up with the beta N64 controller:

EFBb46jU0AAx-f7.jpg


Just showed me a pic that he's gotten some code compiled and ready to run, all he needs is the Indigo 2 to have the complete N64 devkit.
 

XboxCowdry

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Sep 1, 2019
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I talk to Sarah Jane Avory on twitter about this stuff, as our interests align greatly (C64 + Sega CD + Jag CD development). Hearing her stories about Soul Star to the Jaguar blow my mind.

I have an Amiga 1200 that's all super charged for graphics creation on old systems, like the Megadrive. I could technically use Gimp -- and do, actually, for parts -- but part of the charm is making graphics on actual old hardware of the time. A few months ago, I recreated the intro to Fantasy Zone II DX in raw 68000 programming on the Amiga and Genesis, and used Deluxe Paint to handle the graphics:

Ds72jJaUcAANjgE.jpg


DtAI_xoVsAEFqrS


All that said, working with the hardware directly is a lot of fun, I love writing in pure ASM, but I have to admit working with the Dreamcast is so, so much better. All 3 SDKs, actually -- Katana, Windows CE, and the homebrew KOS. I've tried all 3 and they're all so easy to use.

Whats funny is that the Dreamcast has both ports of an ancient version of Direct X, AND an ancient version of OpenGL via GLdc. Both of which are so old now that they don't resemble the current iterations of either API in any way lol.

Yeah Sarah wonderful and will always take the time to answer any questions She did wonders with SoulStar on the Mega CD and also like pointed out she liked how SEGA gave a full technical break down on their systems and what each chip did not like Nintendo. Nice too she's a huge SEGA fan :)

I read that the Atari Lynx was the 1st console system to came with what one could call development tools and libraries. Is that true?
 
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Yeah she's wonderful and will always take the time to answer any questions She did wonders with SoulStar on the Mega CD and also like she pointed out she liked how SEGA gave a full technical break down on their systems and what each chip did not like Nintendo. Nice too she's a huge SEGA fan :)

I read that the Atari Lynx was the 1st console system to came with what one could call development tools and libraries. Is that true?
it wouldn't surprise me given the talent and team behind the Lynx, but I think you could say the Sega Master System, at least in japan, had a devkit that sega used. Seen pics of their graphics board, not the scrapped consumer one but the one they used for internal dev. Omar Cornut, aka BOCK from WonderBoy Dragon's Trap fame, has one IIRC.

The Amiga itself also had a devkit they sent out to people, but I dunno if you'd call that a game console.
 

SharpX68K

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It's too bad that Sega did not wait until 1996 to give its 3rd major console some capable and easy to develop for architectures like PowerPC CPUs and Real3D GPUs, which would made third party devs very happy.