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Window

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,283
China Is Maneuvering for International Leadership as the United States Falters

With hundreds of millions of people now isolating themselves around the world, the novel coronavirus pandemic has become a truly global event. And while its geopolitical implications should be considered secondary to matters of health and safety, those implications may, in the long term, prove just as consequential—especially when it comes to the United States' global position. Global orders have a tendency to change gradually at first and then all at once. In 1956, a botched intervention in the Suez laid bare the decay in British power and marked the end of the United Kingdom's reign as a global power. Today, U.S. policymakers should recognize that if the United States does not rise to meet the moment, the coronavirus pandemic could mark another "Suez moment."

It is now clear to all but the most blinkered partisans that Washington has botched its initial response. Missteps by key institutions, from the White House and the Department of Homeland Security to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC), have undermined confidence in the capacity and competence of U.S. governance. Public statements by President Donald Trump, whether Oval Office addresses or early-morning tweets, have largely served to sow confusion and spread uncertainty. Both public and private sectors have proved ill-prepared to produce and distribute the tools necessary for testing and response. And internationally, the pandemic has amplified Trump's instincts to go it alone and exposed just how unprepared Washington is to lead a global response.

The status of the United States as a global leader over the past seven decades has been built not just on wealth and power but also, and just as important, on the legitimacy that flows from the United States' domestic governance, provision of global public goods, and ability and willingness to muster and coordinate a global response to crises. The coronavirus pandemic is testing all three elements of U.S. leadership. So far, Washington is failing the test.

As Washington falters, Beijing is moving quickly and adeptly to take advantage of the opening created by U.S. mistakes, filling the vacuum to position itself as the global leader in pandemic response. It is working to tout its own system, provide material assistance to other countries, and even organize other governments. The sheer chutzpah of China's move is hard to overstate. After all, it was Beijing's own missteps—especially its efforts at first to cover up the severity and spread of the outbreak—that helped create the very crisis now afflicting much of the world. Yet Beijing understands that if it is seen as leading, and Washington is seen as unable or unwilling to do so, this perception could fundamentally alter the United States' position in global politics and the contest for leadership in the twenty-first century.

...
www.foreignaffairs.com

The Coronavirus Could Reshape Global Order

China is maneuvering for international leadership during the coronavirus crisis as the United States falters.
 

Shoeless

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,000
That's not an outcome I would like to see, and yet at the same time, China in its current shape taking on the current US administration... I can't see how this won't go badly for the US.

Still, these things do take time. Maybe the US can turn it around with a new President, or maybe the damage is done and it's all slow decline from here.
 

Fulminator

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,202
honestly with Trump as our leader and no good leadership prospect ahead of us (unless Bernie can somehow pull it off :/) , I'm not so sure the US should be in that position anymore anyways
 

NTGYK

Attempted to circumvent ban with an alt-account
Banned
Oct 29, 2017
3,470
Yep, Russia and China are gonna take major advantage of this. Just like America and Russia were the only ones really left standing in the aftermath of WW2, China and Russia will likely come out of this strongest, while the EU, UK, and USA suffer immensely.
 

TheMadTitan

Member
Oct 27, 2017
27,235
Trump's whole Presidency is what did it; Russia has been doing this from the beginning and China was playing their hand even before this nonsense. This pandemic just afforded them an opportunity for easy exploitation to accelerate things.
 

Drakeon

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,274
I mean, we could not have picked a worse time to be a kakistrocracy. Although there's no telling what kind of things Trump would've fucked up if he would've been elected in 2008 or 2012... Really, I don't blame the international community for looking elsewhere given who's running the US. We don't deserve to be "leader of the free world" with Trump as President. He's a fucking awful leader in basically every category.
 

LegendofJoe

Member
Oct 28, 2017
12,084
Arkansas, USA
Yep, Russia and China are gonna take major advantage of this. Just like America and Russia were the only ones really left standing in the aftermath of WW2, China and Russia will likely come out of this strongest, while the EU, UK, and USA suffer immensely.

The EU will be fine. Germany is a bright star in all of this mess.

The days of the Anglosphere dominating the world are over though.
 

Deleted member 49482

User requested account closure
Banned
Nov 8, 2018
3,302
We are going to be reaching a crossroads very soon. If Trump tries to put pressure (and subsequently succeeds) in getting certain states to open businesses back up, there is a real possibility that the world turns its back on us and our recklessness while we simultaneously juggle a deep recession/depression. That's a recipe for losing both soft power and economic power.
 
Oct 25, 2017
13,128
Yeah, a pretty different world could emerge from this pandemic in a year. As with most geopolitical disasters, power always shifts.
 

Deleted member 1476

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,449
Sigh. 5G will be the nail in the coffin.

Yep, Russia and China are gonna take major advantage of this. Just like America and Russia were the only ones really left standing in the aftermath of WW2, China and Russia will likely come out of this strongest, while the EU, UK, and USA suffer immensely.

Russia? Don't think so, they might use it to spread more chaos but they're not getting out as good guys out of thi.
 

krazen

Member
Oct 27, 2017
13,147
Gentrified Brooklyn
Of course. That said, I think the mileage may vary; if it just involves the pandemic response and just the immediate economic fallout from the shock then nah, people's memories aren't THAT short and China took hella economic blows too.

But if the US continues to bungle our response which means a real depression here while China just flicks a switch and continues to powerhouse along in a few weeks...fuck. What they were hoping would have taken a few more decades as far as global power supremacy might just take a couple of years
 

FaceHugger

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
13,949
USA
To start: I'm old, seen these same cycles a few times.

A democrat is elected president and often a democrat led chamber of Congress (usually not both) along with them, and they fix things. Or at least get things moving in the right path. Then four years later the US people for some bizarre reason elects a republican and they proceed to wreck things again. Because that's what they do: they're stupid and believe in easily disprovable things.

We're in the middle of one these cycles now. If we the people do the right thing and elect a democrat crisis can be converted. If we fail to do so and keep a completely incompetent person in office, well, who knows.
 

Chindogg

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,241
East Lansing, MI
It really kinda depends. China is sitting on a massive economic bubble right now and with markets weary of products manufactured there having the virus it further hurts their economy.

Everything's exceptionally fragile which is why Jinping was quick to squash any news of Covid-19 when it became an epidemic in Wuhan.

That said, Trump is absurdly incompetent and I'm unsure if Biden will do any better. At this point it seems who can fuck up the least.
 

Lump

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,025
Even though it's not a war, the current pandemic is statistically headed into a place where the human lives and treasure used to fight could be comparable to any given year in either of the World Wars. And here we are with the Apprentice host as the President of the United States. It's basically China's opportunity to lose.
 

Brazil

Actual Brazilian
Member
Oct 24, 2017
18,431
São Paulo, Brazil
To start: I'm old, seen these same cycles a few times.

A democrat is elected president and often a democrat led chamber of Congress (usually not both) along with them, and they fix things. Or at least get things moving in the right path. Then four years later the US people for some bizarre reason elects a republican and they proceed to wreck things again. Because that's what they do: they're stupid and believe in easily disprovable things.

We're in the middle of one these cycles now. If we the people do the right thing and elect a democrat crisis can be converted. If we fail to do so and keep a completely incompetent person in office, well, who knows.
It's acutely telling that you say you're old and have lived through the cycle a few times and still blame it on "some bizarre reason" as if there's no possible explanation for it or a way that cycle could change.

America can either actually embrace the values it claims to champion and change completely in doing so, or be left behind. One or the other will happen within our lifetimes.
 

ChippyTurtle

Banned
Oct 13, 2018
4,773
literally all Biden needs to do to restore America's stability, is rehire all the NSA, State, Pentagon people Trump fired. (not literally but the point is restore the administrative state)
 

Kernel

Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,882
Russia? Don't think so, they might use it to spread more chaos but they're not getting out as good guys out of thi

Lots of propaganda online on how Russia is sending assistance to Italy where the EU did not.

They're totally going for the good guy image.

I'd say it's almost inevitable that China ends up on top within 20 years.
 

chrisPjelly

Avenger
Oct 29, 2017
10,496
Yes, China, the government responsible for Corona and other diseases happening in the first place because of irresponsible policies.
 
Oct 27, 2017
16,580
It's acutely telling that you say you're old and have lived through the cycle a few times and still blame it on "some bizarre reason" as if there's no possible explanation for it or a way that cycle could change.

America can either actually embrace the values it claims to champion and change completely in doing so, or be left behind. One or the other will happen within our lifetimes.
Simple as this. Enough of the bs, we need to actually fight for The People and not corporations. Enough of the center and right shit, we need left policies and we need them now. It's not just the US at stake, it's humanity.
 

Shoeless

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,000
The EU will be fine. Germany is a bright star in all of this mess.

The days of the Anglosphere dominating the world are over though.

The combination of Brexit and the way the UK is handling the pandemic pretty much pushes them all the way to the margins. They're really not going to recover from this, and will be a lot like their old aristocrats. Forced to open up their Stately Manors to tourists and act as a tour guide.
 

rsfour

Member
Oct 26, 2017
16,769
With the current people in charge of China, Russia, and the US, that's not the kind of leadership I'd be looking forward to.
 

ginger ninja

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,060
This is one of those articles that wants to jump the gun and cash in with quick hits during trying times.

Could it happen ? Yes.
Is it too early to tell ? Fuck yes.
Are there better, important things you could be talking about in terms of international affairs and corona virus ? Go fuck yourself yes
 

2PiR

alt account
Banned
Aug 28, 2019
978
Not going to happen. America is going to remain superpower as long as they have literally the best companies in every industry. Apple, Microsoft, Google, Boeing, Tesla, Walmart, Amazon, Starbucks, FB, Intel, AMD, NVDA, Lockheed Martin JUST to name the few.

These companies not only are great but THE best in the world. Entire world uses their products. On top of that you have the best research facilities like NASA and universities like Harvard, MIT, Yale etc. and the biggest movie industry.

Ask any kid from emerging market where he wants to go when he grows up. Yes thats right, AMERICA. Worlds brightest and best minds will always be attracted to USA and not China or Russia.

yes Trump is an asshole and there is lot that needs to be fixed in the country but lets get real. USA is going to stay superpower
 
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chrisPjelly

Avenger
Oct 29, 2017
10,496
The "source" is China literally reporting that it originated in a wet market in Wuhan, but the idea and history of how it was able to happen is generally here


Not saying the OP's article is advocating for this, but the world is in a much bleaker and dumber place than I thought if this is the leadership they want to step in place of the US
 

FaceHugger

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
13,949
USA
It's acutely telling that you say you're old and have lived through the cycle a few times and still blame it on "some bizarre reason" as if there's no possible explanation for it or a way that cycle could change.

I'm just an observer like most others. We keep seeing this happen time and time again in the US and nothing changes. It is bizarre because democrats constantly fix things, but then people vote in republicans again who proceed to ruin everything as they have in the past. There doesn't seem to be any rhyme or reason as to why people keep voting in republicans every eight or so years while it is demonstrable that they always, always fuck things up.

What would be the explanation to you? Because I can't figure one out aside from a terribly uninformed electorate.
 

Kernel

Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,882
China is already building toward this with their belt and road initiative.

So I don't see this as fear mongering.
 

ChippyTurtle

Banned
Oct 13, 2018
4,773
China is already building toward this with their belt and road initiative.

So I don't see this as fear mongering.

well that was already getting pushback, for example in Africa, states have been walking away from the debt traps (not that the IMF or the U.S does not have debt traps either) China offers.
 

electricblue

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,991
They might throw some more money around but China's government isn't going to project soft power. I'm not convinced.
 

Bigjig

Member
Jun 4, 2018
1,212
Countries are fighting tooth and nail against the virus so of course they are going to be grateful to any help they can get in the middle of an outbreak. They are not going to magically forget that the virus originated from, and was covered up by China when all is said and done though.

I think China's big problem is that it has trade partners looking to be part of China's economic boom, but it doesn't really have allies. Other Asian countries despise China, while Western countries turn a blind eye to its human rights abuses for profit. Nobody outside of China actually likes China, they just put up with it. I get the feeling that other Western countries might hate Trump, but they don't loathe the US as a country. A change back to an Obama-style administration and with the virus behind us, the sheer soft culture power of the US would at least keep it in a driving position on the international stage.
 

electricblue

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,991
I'm just an observer like most others. We keep seeing this happen time and time again in the US and nothing changes. It is bizarre because democrats constantly fix things, but then people vote in republicans again who proceed to ruin everything as they have in the past. There doesn't seem to be any rhyme or reason as to why people keep voting in republicans every eight or so years while it is demonstrable that they always, always fuck things up.

What would be the explanation to you? Because I can't figure one out aside from a terribly uninformed electorate.

Racism and fuck you got mine
 
OP
OP
Window

Window

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,283
well that was already getting pushback, for example in Africa, states have been walking away from the debt traps (not that the IMF or the U.S does not have debt traps either) China offers.
They've been providing material assistance in response to COVID19 as well. An extract from the article on China's efforts (which I don't think many have read):
Xi understands that providing global goods can burnish a rising power's leadership credentials. He has spent the last several years pushing China's foreign policy apparatus to think harder about leadingreforms to "global governance," and the coronavirus offers an opportunity to put that theory into action. Consider China's increasingly well-publicized displays of material assistance—including masks, respirators, ventilators, and medicine. At the outset of the crisis, China purchased and produced (and received as aid) vast quantities of these goods. Now it is in a position to hand them out to others.

When no European state answered Italy's urgent appeal for medical equipment and protective gear, China publicly committed to sending 1,000 ventilators, two million masks, 100,000 respirators, 20,000 protective suits, and 50,000 test kits. China has also dispatched medical teams and 250,000 masks to Iran and sent supplies to Serbia, whose president dismissed European solidarity as "a fairy tale" and proclaimed that "the only country that can help us is China." Alibaba co-founder Jack Ma has promised to send large quantities of testing kits and masks to the United States, as well as 20,000 test kits and 100,000 masks to each of Africa's 54 countries.

Beijing's edge in material assistance is enhanced by the simple fact that much of what the world depends on to fight the coronavirus is made in China. It was already the major producer of surgical masks; now, through wartime-like industrial mobilization, it has boosted production of masks more than tenfold, giving it the capacity to provide them to the world. China also produces roughly half of the N95 respirators critical for protecting health workers (it has forced foreign factories in China to make them and then sell them directly to the government), giving it another foreign policy tool in the form of medical equipment. Meanwhile, antibiotics are critical for addressing emerging secondary infections from COVID-19, and China produces the vast majority of active pharmaceutical ingredients necessary to make them.

...

Crisis response, however, is not only about material goods. During the 2014–15 Ebola crisis, the United States assembled and led a coalition of dozens of countries to counter the spread of the disease. The Trump administration has so far shunned a similar leadership effort to respond to the coronavirus. Even coordination with allies has been lacking. Washington appears, for example, not to have given its European allies any prior notice before instituting a ban on travel from Europe.

China, by contrast, has undertaken a robust diplomatic campaign to convene dozens of countries and hundreds of officials, generally by videoconference, to share information about the pandemic and lessons from China's own experience battling the disease. Like much of China's diplomacy, these convening efforts are largely conducted at the regional level or through regional bodies. They include calls with central and easternEuropean states through the "17 + 1" mechanism, with the Shanghai Cooperation Organization's secretariat, with ten Pacific Island states, and with other groupings across Africa, Europe, and Asia. And China is working hard to publicize such initiatives. Virtually every story on the front page of its foreign-facing propaganda organs advertises China's efforts to help different countries with goods and information while underscoring the superiority of Beijing's approach.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,473
Countries are fighting tooth and nail against the virus so of course they are going to be grateful to any help they can get in the middle of an outbreak. They are not going to magically forget that the virus originated from, and was covered up by China when all is said and done though.

I think China's big problem is that it has trade partners looking to be part of China's economic boom, but it doesn't really have allies. Other Asian countries despise China, while Western countries turn a blind eye to its human rights abuses for profit. Nobody outside of China actually likes China, they just put up with it. I get the feeling that other Western countries might hate Trump, but they don't loathe the US as a country. A change back to an Obama-style administration and with the virus behind us, the sheer soft culture power of the US would at least keep it in a driving position on the international stage.
What helps China is they are just so huge, helps having over a billion people.
 

Kernel

Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,882
well that was already getting pushback, for example in Africa, states have been walking away from the debt traps (not that the IMF or the U.S does not have debt traps either) China offers.

Well yes they are but how many countries have already signed on?

There's even a term for this.

Time will tell.

They might throw some more money around but China's government isn't going to project soft power. I'm not convinced.

I think Blizzard found out about China's soft power.

Nobody outside of China actually likes China

I'm sure many people inside don't like it much either, but you can't say much or you disappear.
 

Shoeless

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,000
They might throw some more money around but China's government isn't going to project soft power. I'm not convinced.

That's definitely a MAJOR stumbling block in their bid for more global prestige. So far they don't have anything that convinces me they've overcome this hurdle.

Japan has managed to garner an impressive amount for themselves, however.
 

Terra Torment

Banned
Jan 4, 2020
840
literally all Biden needs to do to restore America's stability, is rehire all the NSA, State, Pentagon people Trump fired. (not literally but the point is restore the administrative state)
The CIA, NSA, and the others are not anyone's friends. This is an incredibly bad take. Those folks are enemies of justice. We should not have a sector that is practically above the law. The notion of using them to restore order is appalling to me given that their idea of restoring order included things like assassinating members of the black panthers and COINTELPRO
 

Prine

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
15,724
Not seeing liberal democracies welcoming or relaxing thier government policy towards China and especially Russia. More like they're taking measures into thier own hands until they're confident US isn't run by a clown.