The climbing in Sony First Party games is boring and bland game design

[More_Badass]

I never get comparisons like this. It's like using Mirror's Edge to say that Halo has bad jumping

Using Prince of Persia as a comparison doesn't make sense because Prince of Persia was a platformer. Challenging traversal and movement puzzles was the core of the game; combat moved more to the forefront in the later games, but it was always a 3D platformer first and foremost.

Uncharted, Horizon, Assassin's Creed, etc are not platformers and aren't trying to be. The traversal in them exist as a means to an end: to reach rooftops, to be stealthy, to escape, to explore, and so on. The climbing and jumping are tools in your arsenal, not the central mechanics around which the gameplay, levels, and challenges are designed like the movement in Prince of Persia and other platformers are.

 

[RexNovis]

I never get comparisons like this. It's like using Mirror's Edge to say that Halo has bad jumping

Using Prince of Persia as a comparison doesn't make sense because Prince of Persia was a platformer. Challenging traversal and movement puzzles was the core of the game; combat moved more to the forefront in the later games, but it was always a 3D platformer first and foremost.

Uncharted, Horizon, Assassin's Creed, etc are not platformers and aren't trying to be. The traversal in them exist as a means to an end: to reach rooftops, to be stealthy, to escape, to explore, and so on. The climbing and jumping are tools in your arsenal, not the central mechanics around which the gameplay, levels, and challenges are designed like the movement in Prince of Persia and other platformers are.

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Just because a specific element of a game is not part of the core design doesn't mean its ok if it is more of a chore than an actually fun interactive activity. Were it just something that happened in a specific series fine I can deal with that. But its the fact that the same minimal player agency systems are being utilized across a variety of different games that is really upsetting. Its gotten to the point where I dread the reveal of the climbing systems in modern western developed AAA games these days because they are so incredibly BORING to play. I don't understand why I should just accept feeling like there are these bland, predictable repetitive hurdles I just have to deal with in modern games to get to the fun parts. Why should that be something we just accept?

 

[More_Badass]

Just because a specific element of a game is not part of the core design doesn't mean its ok if it is more of a chore than an actually fun interactive activity. Were it just something that happened in a specific series fine I can deal with that. But its the fact that the same minimal player agency systems are being utilized across a variety of different games that is really upsetting. Its gotten to the point where I dread the reveal of the climbing systems in modern western developed AAA games these days because they are so incredibly BORING to play. I don't understand why I should just accept feeling like there are these bland, predictable repetitive hurdles I just have to deal with in modern games to get to the fun parts. Why should that be something we just accept?

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Because that's all extremely subjective. You feel it's something people are just "accepting", that it's bland and boring, a chore and a hurdle, while others don't find it bland and boring, find it fun and enjoyable, or just don't even think about it because the climbing isn't there as to be challenging but as a means to get to a location more directly. Like that's really all there is to it.

And it also implies that "minimal player agency" is inherently a bad thing. Like what exactly would change about Horizon's climbing for example that it would be less of a chore? I imagine that having to worry about in-depth platforming mechanics while you're trying to get to a vantage point in a stealth/combat section would be much more of a chore than just being able to quickly and easily climb to where you want to go.

 

[NediarPT88]

As far as I'm concerned, God of War's combat is the new gold standard, and character action titles would do well to learn from it.

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Not with that camera.

I'm close to finishing my GMGOW run and the combat can be extremely frustrating in some moments due to it. You have to spend more time repositioning yourself while using Atreus than actually hitting the enemies. Facing multiple enemies at the same time when some of them are projectile type just doesn't work well in this game and there were times when I took damage where I just wondered what the fuck was I supposed to do because the screen gets absolutely cluttered with all kinds of shit coming from everywhere and the threat indicator will do you no good. Parrying is also extremely risky because right at the end of the animation you can take damage so if you get unlucky because a projectile is coming at the wrong time then you'll get hit no matter what.

It can work with less enemies but it's definitely not ideal with this many when you have to deal with attacks coming off-screen. There's a reason why other game don't use a camera this close, and you also have examples like DMC or Bayonetta where enemies off-screen don't even attack you.

I have to mention another thing that's completely awful, enemies "slide" through the floor to get to you. This shit is the absolute worse and has no place in a action game like this, it reminded me of some of the enemies in Darksiders 2, it's just poor design. It doesn't really matter if you learn the range of the enemy sword swing animation for example because even if you dodge and put enough distance to them the game will "magically" transport them to you so their attack connects.

Ftr I really like the game and I should be close to 100h played at this point, the camera while not being ideal in the circumstances I mentioned makes you really appreciate the work that was done with the animations, and it really shines with 1vs1 combat like the Valkyries (best thing in the game by far), it certainly allowed for some really amazing moments but personally it's not a trade-off I want to make all the times. I wish they are able create a more dynamic camera in the sequel.

The potential is certainly there so this franchise can have a truly and complete enjoyable combat system in the future, but calling a gold standard at this point is just nonsense imo. I don't think that even exists tbh, different games can and should be their own thing.

 

[Yoshi]

I gotta confess I never actually played warrior within. The shift in art style and tone really turned me off the game completely so I never picked it up. Maybe I should look into doing that. Wonder what the easiest way to play it these days is.

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There is a trilogy release on PS3 and PC, other than that you'd need a GameCube, Wii, PS2 or Xbox.

 

[gfxtwin]

Agreed, but they finally made it fun in Uncharted 4 and LL. The way you move your arm with the analog stick, the piton spike, and the swinging mechanics made climbing the most fun part of those games for me.

But there's a lot of idea-borrowing going on in Sony first party games that's probably gonna be seen as antiquated very soon. Focus on cinematic presentation, the Uncharted-style climbing, RE4/GOW-style camera and aiming and interaction, etc. It feels too much like Sony first party studio's inspiration begins and ends with PS3-era Naughty Dog and Bloodborne. There needs to be a shake-up soon, and I'm gonna guess the first titles to do it in a major way will be Spider-Man and Death Stranding.

 

[JigglesBunny]

Boring, yes. Bad game design, no.

 

[Kumomeme]

probably devs didnt want to tire out player

they targeted wide range of audience..from casual to hardcore,from young to old
i believe they designed the game with that target in mind

they want to make sure their game sold well

 

[Melchiah]

probably devs didnt want to tire out player

they targeted wide range of audience..from casual to hardcore,from young to old
i believe they designed the game with that target in mind

they want to make sure their game sold well

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And it was the right decision. A couple of my friends actually had problems with the rather challenging combat, eventhough one of them has played Bloodborne halfway through, and decided to play the game on easy. If the platforming had been equally challenging, it's highly likely they would have just dropped the game.

As much as the OP and some others want to think it's objectively bad and unenjoyable, it's far from it for many, if not the majority.

 

[Kumomeme]

And it was the right decision. A couple of my friends actually had problems with the rather challenging combat, eventhough one of them has played Bloodborne halfway through, and decided to play the game on easy. If the platforming had been equally challenging, it's highly likely they would have just dropped the game.

As much as the OP and some others want to think it's objectively bad and unenjoyable, it's far from it for many, if not the majority.

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yep..whats important is this game reached and playable by wide range of audience...they want horizon zero down widely accepted like skyrim...and i rather spend most of time in combat than climbing..i think that is one of reason
in game like horizon,climbing merely is one of traversal method..its not their main core gameplay attention

 

[RexNovis]

With so many pointing out that these climbing parts are a method devs use to hide loading I'm hoping that the advent of fast loading SSDs in Sony's next project will minimize these. Here's hoping more of these minimally interactive scenes will be present in their games going forward.

 

[Deleted member 9584]

With so many pointing out that these climbing parts are a method devs use to hide loading I'm hoping that the advent of fast loading SSDs in Sony's next project will minimize these. Here's hoping more of these minimally interactive scenes will be present in their games going forward.

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Doubtful. They would still use slow climbing scenes as a way to still have "gameplay" why characters talk to each other to help push the story.

 

[Butterworth]

Can't say I disagree either honestly. HZD climbing was a let down for me, as it's semi automated, if that makes sense.

Would love for HZD 2 to implement something similar to BotW climbing.

GoW climbing felt like it was there for loading and additional paths for their level design.

 

[RexNovis]

Doubtful. They would still use slow climbing scenes as a way to still have "gameplay" why characters talk to each other to help push the story.

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That can be accomplished in more interactive segments though. It doesn't have to be done in simple tilt the control stick segments. At least I'd hope that'd be the case. There's also a lot more climbing in God Of War than was necessary for dialogue or story purposes. Perhaps if it's reduced substantially it wouldn't be quite so off putting. I don't know but at the very least I'm hopeful the faster loading times might improve one of my biggest gripes with their design choices

 

[Jakisthe]

It's always seemed incredibly clear to me that it was never meant to be "challenging platforming". It's replacement for navigating a space on an entirely flat plane. What fail states are there to walking? Where'd the challenge? Nothing and nowhere. Traversal, be it in GoW, Horizon, Uncharted, whatever, is absolutely a positive and people thinking it's supposed to be some sort of PoP 3D platforming seem to have missed an obvious point of the design.

 

[Mechaplum]

Falling to death is probably one of the most frustrating way to die in an adventure game.

I honestly would not have finished GoW if this is possible. I don't mind something like that in a game like Dark Souls but to me it's just something annoying and increases friction to enjoy the story or the action.

 

[StrappingYoungLance]

I don't really remember any extended climbing sections in God of War, just brief parts getting from a to b that weren't long enough to be boring to me. I wasn't super fond of the climbing in Horizon and Tall Necks certainly could have done with being a little more puzzley.

Uncharted long had this problem but UC4 at least felt more like a lot of the time you were finding your way a bit more.

I don't really mind that the climbing isn't anything particularly engaging in these games (Uncharted would benefit from leaning into the platforming a little more since it's already such a huge part of the series). In the cases of Horizon and God of War the climbing sections are very small facets of the game and so I don't really expect much from them. I don't need everything with climbing to be Prince of Persia.

 

[Prine]

I've only played UC4 to completion out of those mentioned, but yes, the lowest point of that game was the simplistic, unrewarding automated traversal, i hated it

 

[Andromeda]

I agree. A great example of climbing done right are Far Cry 4 towers.

 

[TyrantGuardian]

I never get comparisons like this. It's like using Mirror's Edge to say that Halo has bad jumping

Using Prince of Persia as a comparison doesn't make sense because Prince of Persia was a platformer. Challenging traversal and movement puzzles was the core of the game; combat moved more to the forefront in the later games, but it was always a 3D platformer first and foremost.

Uncharted, Horizon, Assassin's Creed, etc are not platformers and aren't trying to be. The traversal in them exist as a means to an end: to reach rooftops, to be stealthy, to escape, to explore, and so on. The climbing and jumping are tools in your arsenal, not the central mechanics around which the gameplay, levels, and challenges are designed like the movement in Prince of Persia and other platformers are.

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I mean, you're right but... that's exactly what makes those games so awful to play IMO.

Seeing new vistas is perhaps somewhat interesting, but once you've seen it - that's it. You move along and there's not any gameplay around it. The stealth is completely uninteresting and vapid, the exploration is extremely unsatisfying with most levels being completely linear while having minor collectibles hidden away in nooks and crannies at best.

Their claim to fame is usually having well produced set pieces and story. The gameplay clearly comes second and for those of us who primarily enjoy the latter these games are just boring to play.

 

[Spring-Loaded]

It's always seemed incredibly obvious to me that it was never meant to be "challenging platforming". It's replacement for navigating a space on an entirely flat plane. What fail states are there to walking? Where'd the challenge? Nothing and nowhere. Traversal, be it in GoW, Horizon, Uncharted, whatever, is absolutely a positive and people thinking it's supposed to be some sort of PoP 3D platforming sound completely insane to have missed such an obvious point of the design.

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It can be easy without being boring though, and it often is functionally uninteresting.

There are myriad moments where that traversal is presented thematically as being dangerous or tense and it last for a significant chunk of time.

I found traversal in Horizon and GoW to occasionally be a bit dull, but it was mostly a problem in Uncharted 4 where it's absolutely treated as a pillar of gameplay rather than for transitions. If its main purpose is to make getting from point-to-point more interesting like you say, then those points of actual interest don't need to be as far apart as they often are in UC4—the rumors that there was a stamina meter removed late in development would help explain why there are so many overly long climbing sections without

• Choices of where to go
• Some timed element (collapsing structures, pursuing enemies)
• Significant dialogue/plot advancement
• A puzzle element/non-obvious path forward

Other Uncharted games (namely 2 and Lost Legacy) had more of the above along with its pure traversal segments, and the long climbing portions had more spectacle and story significance (e.g. the ice caves in 2 have more going on than the static climbing portions of Scotland in 4, yet both are significantly long), and they take place after exciting portions of the game (stuff like Tibet village is a welcome change of pace and doesn't overstay its welcome).

You imply walking would boring, and that it's better we're getting climbing instead , but if there's nothing more engaging about it than walking down a hallway, it is as boring as walking. And neither has to be boring even if it's easy—you can have items or secrets useful to the player to find during walking/traversal transitions, or meaningful dialogue choices, or crafting options, multiple paths to take that shape the player's experience with the game in ways that feed back into the gameplay in some way (selling treasure and getting something the player can use in-game, like in Uncharted: The Lost Legacy).

If these portions of the game are 5-10 minutes long and they're as frequent as the much more fleshed out action/challenge-driven sequences, then it needs to have something beyond pretty vistas, because without any other value to the player, that isn't enough for many, hence the thread. People aren't confused about why these segments exist like you implied—they just don't like how they're handled.

 

[Makeno]

I mean, you're right but... that's exactly what makes those games so awful to play IMO.

Seeing new vistas is perhaps somewhat interesting, but once you've seen it - that's it. You move along and there's not any gameplay around it. The stealth is completely uninteresting and vapid, the exploration is extremely unsatisfying with most levels being completely linear while having minor collectibles hidden away in nooks and crannies at best.

Their claim to fame is usually having well produced set pieces and story. The gameplay clearly comes second and for those of us who primarily enjoy the latter these games are just boring to play.

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What.. which game are you talking about here?

 

[Karateka]

The climbing in BOTW is worse imo but mainly because it is so darn slow

 

[RexNovis]

The climbing in BOTW is worse imo but mainly because it is so darn slow

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the climbing in BOTW is actual gameplay thought with specific mechanics, user feedback and actual user input. It's leagues better than the ones I'm comparing it to in regards to the points made in the OP no matter how much slower it is.

The primary difference is that climbs in BOTW is actual gameplay and it's a core part of the games gameplay whereas the climbing in these games just acts as a slow bridge to the next gameplay segments which is ... not ideal.

 

[Harlequin]

You can go back even further for good examples. The PS1 Tomb Raider games have some of the best 3D platforming mechanics/level design I've ever encountered. They're based around actual three-dimensional movement, as opposed to the two-dimensional movement of most modern action-adventure climbing sections (where you're usually just moving along a pre-defined path on a two-dimensional surface).

Some people may dislike them because the games' controls felt a bit slow and sluggish but the basic concept of their platforming mechanics and level design can still work with faster controls, as proven by Mirror's Edge.

That game's platforming is very reminiscent of the old Tomb Raider games, just faster and in first-person. You still have the platform-based level design (whereas modern climbing sections tend to be based around ledges/beams/pipes), the three-dimensional movement, the lack of magnetism (in most modern games, ledges tend to pull you towards them even if your aim was off), the consistent jump distances (meaning players actually need to accurately judge distances because the game won't artificially lengthen their jumps to help them), etc.

This kind of platforming is challenging, rewarding and fun to play as opposed to the climbing in games like Uncharted, Horizon, God of War or the Crystal Dynamics Tomb Raider games which is a boring, tedious chore.

 

[Kaguya]

Uncharted, Horizon, Assassin's Creed, etc are not platformers and aren't trying to be. The traversal in them exist as a means to an end: to reach rooftops, to be stealthy, to escape, to explore, and so on.

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Assasin's Creed and Horizon open world sections are understandable. Ucharted and some Horizon indoor sections were clearly meant to be platforming sections, you almost spend as much time platforming in Uncharted as you do shooting. There's no excuse for them, either implement better more engaging platforming or remove the platforming, as they are now, they're just big chunks of poor boring gameplay.

GoW2018 is the worst offender though, it's on a whole different level, I'm at the point where I'd take a black loading screen over GoW platforming.

 

[Wackamole]

Yeah it's boring. Especially in Uncharted 4.

 

[TyrantGuardian]

What.. which game are you talking about here?

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The ones mentioned in comparison to PoP in the post I was replying to. Open world games have linear designs too, as it turns out. The platforming during story sections in particular (and throughout Uncharted, obviously).

 

[Exist 2 Inspire]

Disagree. I found BOTW climbing to be tedious and annoying most of the time for example. I like it when climbing is mostly smooth, quick and straightforward.

 

[dead souls]

Yeah it's boring. Especially in Uncharted 4.

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Everything in Uncharted 4 is boring.

 

[Wackamole]

Everything in Uncharted 4 is boring.

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I liked the gameplay mechanics in combat. But somehow it's a very forgettable game. Gorgeous though.

 

[Bulebule]

The problem with Uncharted-like climbing is not the challenge (as it was never meant to be difficult), but it's predictability. It's very easy to tell when you survive although it looks like close call. Maybe they were looking for a spectacle, but because you can notice it from far away, it becomes very boring quickly.

 

[get2sammyb]

The walking in Sony First Party Games™ is also boring and bland game design: they should make it more like QWOP where you have to move each limb independently and maintain your balance.

I'm obviously being facetious and I do understand the criticism to an extent, but I think the climbing is a means to an end. That doesn't mean it can't be deeper, but it could also be frustrating to add intense platforming segments when the climbing is being used as either a story development device or a means to an end.

For example, in Assassin's Creed you're climbing to get a vantage point to improve your stealth tactics. If this was an extremely challenging platforming segment, then this could get very irritating when you just want to survey your surroundings in order to plan your attack.

 

[Deleted member 40102]

Sony always tries to follow realistic physics in the least with first party games and its totally acceptable. Not everything needs to be like a fucking cockroach walking on the wall just so you could feel good about your gameplay then the whole concept of "realizim" in sony games to be destroyed.

 

[Linus815]

All I can say is that I enjoy nu-Tomb Raider's climbing much more as it's more "mechanical" than Uncharted's. It's not difficult either, but it feels more involved - I used to love "auto climbing" because I thought it was slick as hell, but that was 10 years ago, I think it's time to move on from it. I liked in the Death Stranding trailer, how scaling an obsticle was something that the player needs to do manually, with tools they have, rather than the game automatically doing everything.

 

[RexNovis]

Disagree. I found BOTW climbing to be tedious and annoying most of the time for example. I like it when climbing is mostly smooth, quick and straightforward.

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That's because climbing as it is currently in these games is just the thing you have to get through to get to the next gameplay segment. Were the climbing themselves a compelling gameplay loop your desire for them to be as short as possible would (hopefully) change as they'd be (ideally) fun to play through.

My theory is that a lot of the folks who are fine with them as they are are fine with them because they don't realize they could be better. It has essentially been long enough that we've had thus sort of climbing being common place that folks just see it as the way things are now and perhaps have forgotten that these sorts of segments can genuinely be fun and engaging parts of game design.

 

[ket]

That's because climbing as it is currently in these games is just the thing you have to get through to get to the next gameplay segment. Were the climbing themselves a compelling gameplay loop your desire for them to be as short as possible would (hopefully) change as they'd be (ideally) fun to play through.

My theory is that a lot of the folks who are fine with them as they are are fine with them because they don't realize they could be better. It has essentially been long enough that we've had thus sort of climbing being common place that folks just see it as the way things are now and perhaps have forgotten that these sorts of segments can genuinely be fun and engaging parts of game design.

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nah i think ppl just have different opinions than you

 

[RexNovis]

The walking in Sony First Party Games™ is also boring and bland game design: they should make it more like QWOP where you have to move each limb independently and maintain your balance.

I'm obviously being facetious and I do understand the criticism to an extent, but I think the climbing is a means to an end. That doesn't mean it can't be deeper, but it could also be frustrating to add intense platforming segments when the climbing is being used as either a story development device or a means to an end.

For example, in Assassin's Creed you're climbing to get a vantage point to improve your stealth tactics. If this was an extremely challenging platforming segment, then this could get very irritating when you just want to survey your surroundings in order to plan your attack.

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Except even walking has more player control and feedback than these climbing segments do since they allow for total control of movement.

There are other ways to deliver snippets of story and dialogue than to strip player control back to the minimum possible extreme. These segments offer less user control than any other form of traversal and that makes them exceedingly tedious especially when you are navigating back through areas later on.

 

[mogwai00]

Yep.
And it influenced the whole gaming scene.
Hopefully it will die, at a certain point.

 

[TyraZaurus]

As far as I'm concerned, God of War's combat is the new gold standard, and character action titles would do well to learn from it.

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Yes, let's make all combat button mashing with only a few actual weapons that make little difference in the long run

God of War's combat is stale and brainless

 

[ClarkusDarkus]

Why is there two threads on the front page discussing the same thing, Some weird fascination with climbing all of a sudden in Sony games, For the love of god give us E3 and new consoles asap.

Now were at saying GOW combat is bad.....

 

[TheThreadsThatBindUs]

I never get comparisons like this. It's like using Mirror's Edge to say that Halo has bad jumping

Using Prince of Persia as a comparison doesn't make sense because Prince of Persia was a platformer. Challenging traversal and movement puzzles was the core of the game; combat moved more to the forefront in the later games, but it was always a 3D platformer first and foremost.

Uncharted, Horizon, Assassin's Creed, etc are not platformers and aren't trying to be. The traversal in them exist as a means to an end: to reach rooftops, to be stealthy, to escape, to explore, and so on. The climbing and jumping are tools in your arsenal, not the central mechanics around which the gameplay, levels, and challenges are designed like the movement in Prince of Persia and other platformers are.

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Agreed. This is my view.

 

[Stef]

After Breath of the Wild every climbing feel bland.

 

[Huey]

Would definitely echo sentiments to play The Last Guardian - platforming failure in that game is very possible and it makes the jumps and climbing have real stakes. The boy very much seems to be working when he's climbing as well. Someone compared it previously to Tomb Raider of all things, but it's strangely accurate.

Def count me among those who were disappointed in GOW 2018's movement away from platforming. I understand removing jump was core to the new combat system but it removed some of the soul of the series for me - part of its DNA for Jaffe was adventure films like Indiana Jones.

 

[Deleted member 56266]

I actually found it quite fun in GoW and I think that's due in large part to two factors:

1) IIRC most were quite short
2) Kratos just felt so weighty and it was satisfying to jump from ledge to ledge.

But yea Uncharted climbing is zzzzzz...

 

[NippleViking]

I know it's not first-party, but the recent Death Stranding footage kinda feels like an antidote to this problem lol

 

[Keldroc]

the climbing in BOTW is actual gameplay thought with specific mechanics, user feedback and actual user input. It's leagues better than the ones I'm comparing it to in regards to the points made in the OP no matter how much slower it is.

The primary difference is that climbs in BOTW is actual gameplay and it's a core part of the games gameplay whereas the climbing in these games just acts as a slow bridge to the next gameplay segments which is ... not ideal.

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This is nonsense. The climbing in BOTW is a gating mechanic that slowly eases as you upgrade the stamina meter, and is no more interesting than climbing in any other game with climbing. It just has a built in annoyance in the form of a time limit. The climbing in Sony games at least accomplishes its goal of being either a cover for load time or a shift in traversal used to deliver dialogue without interruption from combat. BOTW's climbing only succeeds at being an irritant. It's the polar opposite of the Prince of Persia example, and the pinnacle of boring climbing mechanics.

 

[HellofaMouse]

if all climbing segments in modern aaa games worked like the ps2 pop games, the world would be a better place.

 

[RexNovis]

I know it's not first-party, but the recent Death Stranding footage kinda feels like an antidote to this problem lol

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Yep you're not wrong. I'm hoping that maybe it will help usher in a new era of traversal design the way past Kojima titles helped usher in new design ideas with stealth and combat mechanics. Time will tell I suppose. It's certainly infinitely more interesting that's for sure.

 

[RexNovis]

if all climbing segments in modern aaa games worked like the ps2 pop games, the world would be a better place.

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It's been far too long

Edit: bah sorry double post. Got too excited seeing a kindred spirit