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The Bear

Forest Animal
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
4,198
The writing and story of Kingdom Hearts series has always been a fairly discussed topic in video game forums. That said, in this topic I want to talk about a specific point – the writing of women in the series.

NOTE: There will be some spoilers of Kingdom Hearts III here. I have spoilered these sections clearly, and tried to use as vague wording as possible inside these spoiler tags. If you see anyone else post accidental or non-accidental KH3 spoilers, report those posts. That said, if you are absolutely trying to avoid all KH3 content, your best bet is to evade this thread till you have played it. I'm hoping everyone can still read this thread with these guidelines though.

So I want to concentrate on the four main heroines of this series so far: Kairi, Namine, Xion and Aqua. There are more women in the series that I'm omitting here, including all disney characters, and few minor original ones. Reason I am omitting them from this OP is due to them either being originally a disney property, or having a relatively minor role in the series as a whole. I'll look at the main women who have a fairly substansial role in the series (to the point that they all appear in the cover art of KH3).

I am expecting you to have basic understanding of the plot of the series, so I'm not going to explicitly explain the plot.


Kairi

Kairi is introduced in the first Kingdom Hearts game as one of the major protagonists of the game. She is introduced with some mystery to her, and her personality is established pretty well in the opening hours of the first game. After this though, she disappears, and one of the main objectives of the game becomes finding and rescuing her.

'Rescuing a friend' plots aren't necessarily a bad thing – and I don't think KH1 does a bad job with it, doing some subversion about it with the 'She was travelling with Sora all along' twist. That said, she has pretty minimal agency of her own in the game, and acts mostly as a plot obstacle for Sora and Riku to fight towards. After she is rescued near the end of the game, her role doesn't evolve much from there. She and Sora are separated at the end, as she returns back to Destiny Islands without Sora. At this point her role is established, and there is room for her to evolve and have an actual character arc.

However, instead her role is greatly disminished from here on out in the later games. In KH2 she is kidnapped, and becomes a plot obstacle for Sora to rescue once again. She has even less agency of her own here in my opinion, her only scene of any actual independence is running away from Axel at one point. It's fairly disappointing, but she is given a Keyblade at the end, hinting at potentially future heroism for her.

…Afterwhich she is almost completely MIA until the epilogue of Dream Drop Distance. In general the handling of Kairi until DDD has been a regression from the first game onwards overall. She doesn't get to do really anything except be the love interest for Sora, and not much else. She hasn't shown any real personality traits since first game either.

In Kingdom Hearts III she is rendered again into a plot obstacle for Sora to fight towards. She has few scenes of her own independence, but there is nothing very substansial over there – in the end she seems to only exist to be the Love Interest, and to be rescued. It is very disappointing overall.


Namine

Namine is introduced in Kingdom Hearts: Chain of Memories. Her role for the most part of the game is to act as a goal for Sora to reach – it seems apparent that the organisation has captured her, and Sora tries to climb Castle Oblivion to save her. The situation ends being bit more complex that that – Namine was forced to manipulate Sora to do just that by the antagonists of the game. After this revelation though, her role doesn't change much. Sora (and Riku Replica) both still end up defending her, and she ends up being a pretty passable player in the end. Still, the aspect of manipulation and her being shown to feel guilty about it does add an interesting layer to her characterisation.

In 358/2 Days she mostly exists as caretaker of Sora's recovery process. She doesn't do much here, except for having few exposition-heavy cut-scenes with Riku and Xion. She mostly fills the same role in Kingdom Hearts 2, giving some exposition to Roxas in the prologue, and then mostly disappearing from the story until the ending save for few scenes. She does show some agency of her own in KH2, when she helps Kairi out near the end of the game, so it's not all bad. Still, her writing is fairly bland, and she doesn't do anything meaningful that doesn't involve Sora or Riku somehow.

After this she mostly disappears from the series. She briefly appears in Re:Coded in data form, but there isn't much substance to it. I don't know about her role in KH3 at this time, so I won't put any spoilers about it. All in all I think she fares in Chain of Memories bit better than Kairi as a whole, but it's not much. She still exists mostly to be a plot obstacle in that game, and her further appearances have been fairly shallow.


Xion

Xion appears in 358/2 Days as a major protagonist, first one in the series. She is introduced as another Keyblade wielder in the game who you go into missions with, and befriend.

While I have issues with writing in Days as a whole, it does do some elements fairly well in my opinion – it shows the friendship of Roxas and Xion and Axel building with gameplay in missions rather than just exposition of 'well they are super best friends'. It's more "show, don't tell" type of storytelling that actually works here, in my opinion.

Xion also has active agency of her own, compared to Kairi and Namine. She leaves the organisation, fights back people trying to capture her and has will of her own (for the most part). It's nice to see a character with some actual agency for a change.

That said, she has her fair share of problems. Most of her character is tied to Roxas and Sora, and she doesn't serve much of a purpose in the grand story as a whole but to motivate Roxas and be a plot objective for him, much like Kairi is for Sora. The only way for her to fit the overall narrative of the Kingdom Hearts plot also means that she dies (again, for the sake of Sora and Roxas), and if erased from everyone's memories at the same time to make any sense in the context of KH2. This is pretty bad writing, and it's sad that her writing ends up being defined by Sora and Roxas for the most part. She has a brief cameo in Dream Drop distance, but there isn't much content there to talk about.

I don't have full knowledge of her role in KH3, so I won't discuss it here in the OP. Remember to use spoiler tags in the thread if you want to discuss that part!


Aqua

Aqua was introduced in Kingdom Hearts Birth By Sleep as one of the three protagonists of the game. She becomes a Keyblade Master at the start of the game, and has lot of pretty awesome scenes in the game, including the final boss fight. One would assume she is the best written female character of the game.

However, there are quite a few issues with how she is written in BBS. Biggest problem is that she has no proper character arc of her own. The game doesn't establish any proper personality or goals for her outside of wanting to protect her friends. This is a fine goal, but the problem comes that the friendship she shares with Ven and Terra isn't well established. This comes back to the 'Show, don't tell' principle that was handled fairly well with Xion – we are told multiple times over the game that Aqua is friends with Ven and Terra, yet are never shown in outside the opening tutorial, which frankly isn't enough due to the writing being quite bad.

So what does that leave with Aqua in BBS? Frankly, not much. The game doesn't really establish any meaningful personality traits for her, any wants or needs or anything. For most of the game she is a fairly blank character whose only agency is tied to the characters of Ventus and Terra. The only scene that I remember in the whole game where she shows anything character traits that are not tied to the flawed 'I love my friends' theme is when she turns down Zack Fair's invite for a date. Other than that, all she does in the game is tied to the male characters in the game. This is pretty disappointing, and makes her very bland and forgettable character as a whole. Almost all of her role in BBS as a whole is to serve the plots of Ventus and Terra, and not have any actual character of her own outside of that, which is very disappointing for many reasons.

To note, she does fare a bit better in KH0.2 – A Fragmented Passage. Her character is still mostly only tied to talking about how big friends she is with Ventus and Terra, but there is at least the added layer of fighting with her feelings of desperation, loneliness and darkness. It's not much, but it's at least something.

Her role in KH3 is mostly again is to serve Ventus' and Terra's plots. The idea of her darkness is explored again to some extent, but other than that she is there in relation to Ventus and Terra. In a weird point of regression, she actually has to be saved multiple times by other male characters, even though she has some agency of her own, including a boss battle. Still, it's nothing to write home about.



So why does this matter?

So the Kingdom Hearts' series writing as a whole isn't that great, so it's not that surprising that the writing of women isn't good either. But it is very disappointing to me, since most of the main male characters of this series does get at least some layer of characterization that makes them more interesting, and gives them agency.

Sora has layers of self-doubt and being something of a 'Plan B' for the Keyblade, which while not always well explored, gives him at least some depth. Riku has a fairly interesting redemption arc and fighting with the darkness that has spanned the whole series. Terra has his own internal struggle as well, as does Ventus to a lesser extent. Roxas has an interesting arc in KH2, and Axel has his struggles with Saix and Roxas. None of these plot points aren't amazing, but it is definitely lot better than how the women in this series have been written. The women are mostly treated as plot objectives for the male heroes to reach, or their agency and interests are completely tied to the male heroes. I don't think it's wrong to expect more from the writing of this series.

I know this is a long OP, but I hope you have read most of it (maybe skipping the few KH3 spoiler tags). What do you think about this subject? Do you disagree with my interpretations? Do you have other characters you'd want to talk about (like Larxene?).
 

DNAbro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
25,928
I feel like this conversation will be more productive and meaningful after more people have played and finished KH3.

There are definite issues in how female characters are written though and KH3 doesn't really change that.

Though now that I think about it, Ava of the Foretellers seems okay.
 

Albatross

Member
Nov 11, 2017
197
I haven't read the KH3 part since I didn't even watched the trailers to avoid any spoilers, but for the rest I completely agree.

I was pretty young when I first played most of the series so I didn't really think about it (though I do remember clearly that I was very happy and pleasantly surprised when Kairi got her keyblade at the end of KH2), but when I recently re-played them on PS4 this was the thing that sticked out and annoyed/frustrated me the most.
 

Renteka-Bond

Chicken Chaser
Member
Dec 28, 2017
4,273
Clearwater, Florida
No, you're pretty much spot on (I avoided looking at the KH3 sections of your post, though, since I'm going in relatively blind). I've been clamoring for Kairi to do something since she got the keyblade in 2 (one of my favorite scenes is when she does come charging into the final boss segment of 2 but gets knocked out when Xemnas throws the skyscraper at them. Bless her heart, she tried) and it feels like it's taken longer than it has simply because we've gotten so many pre-kh2 games since 2, even though it's only really been maybe a few weeks in story time since KH2 ended. One thing that I do think is good about Kairi, to sum it up, is that she has always been willing to try and be helpful. Even though she ha no skills, in both one and 2 she's eager to try and help Sora and, later on, Riku so that they don't have to do it alone. Her getting an active role, even if it turns out kinda lame, is what I and many others have been waiting for for her for years.

I have my own issues with Xion similar to you, primarily being that I think she's a pointless character largely for the reason you put; she only exists to fuel Roxas' (and now Lea's) angst. She added further complication to an issue that largely had a simpler solution (the question of how does Roxas have 2 keyblades) while not doing much to actually effect the series outside of that due to the nature of her integration into the story.

Namine has been dead weight since 2, no 2 ways about it. I do, however, like how it's actually Namine that breaks Kairi out of prison initially in 2 and, even though they would have lost, they were willing to try and fight Saix when he confronted them.

Aqua's bland personality in BBS is part of the reason why, even though he's dumb as a brick, I vastly prefer Terra in BBS (playstyle gripes notwithstanding). 0.2 fixes that a little bit by having her be so depressed about it, but she's not a particularly interesting character, imo.

I don't think there's much negative to say about Larxene. She's one of the most expressive and distinct members of the cast in general, imo, due to her bitchy, sadistic personality. Can't wait to see her in 3.
 

Inuhanyou

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
14,214
New Jersey
Kairi aside, i objectively disagree with Aqua, Xion and especially Namine, as her entire role in KHCOM defined the events of the series to come. To handwave that away is just unfortunate.
 

Budi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,883
Finland
I've never played any of the games, so I won't chime in with my own take on them of course. But it was interesting to read and I understand the points you brought up.
 

LAA

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,336
I was one of the lucky ones who got a copy early, so I'll give my thoughts on them.
I will say I'm someone who does like KH story too, at least I'm invested in it and I think I'd be a lot less interested in the series without it being the way it is.

With Aqua.. I have no problem with her portrayal really. I feel she is one of the better written female characters.
She fights Xehanort bare handed, she's determined to carry out her promises asap, and I don't really see it that she suddenly becomes "weak" after being saved.
Don't really see a problem with her needing to be saved from the RoD, the whole point of BBS was everyone being led to a sad fate really or being saved by Ven later either, as she put herself in that danger trying to protect him in the first place anyway.
The only point I could complain about, (Which I didn't consider when seeing this, but saw a post which made me think, was that Terra was basically told to look after Aqua/Ven, despite: 1. Aqua being the master and 2. Aqua's been looking after everyone since the start, ha, but I know Terra was seen as a son to Eraqus, so reasons for it.

With Kairi, I probably agree she's one of the weaker characters.
She trains for X time, and you don't really see much to suggest she improved, even if she was a "healer class" or something, think it would have been good to see her training show at one point, but it didn't really. Kairi has always been a character to save really, so would like more development there for her really.

Xion.. honestly I'm the most confused about, despite beating the game.
She joins Org. XIII, I have no idea why she'd want to help Xehanort and co and accept to fight Lea/Sora, I don't even know how she was summoned back to the world as her heart would surely still be with Sora?
I do like her design and the idea of her as a character, and agree we haven't seen as much of her since 358/2 and in 3 itself, she's just there without explanation how or why.

Namine...
A character that mostly doesn't show up or referenced for most of the game. I personally didn't find her so interesting sadly anyway, despite her significance in a few plots, I guess part of that is maybe you don't see her performing "actions" and she isn't really a "fighter" like the others kinda are and you mostly just see her before/after doing something memory-messing wise. They could do more with her, but as I say, don't really have much interest in her to be honest. It seems the direction they want to go in is possibly make her a Riku love interest? Or someone to be protected by Riku at least possibly because of Repliku's influence?
 
OP
OP
The Bear

The Bear

Forest Animal
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
4,198
Bit of a shameless bump, but I finished KH3 today, and well..

It's pretty awful in terms of how women are written in the game. Kairi get's basically fridged, Aqua is mostly there to be saved by men in all situations she is in, and Xion... well she has few scenes, but nothing substansial. Namine barely appears, and is mostly just another plot device.

I don't know what I expected.
 

MsMuerta

Member
Nov 8, 2017
622
It's quite worrying that the best written woman in KH3 isn't one of the main cast members but freaking Rapunzel.
 

Golnei

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,823
Like I said in the spoiler thread -

Not-Stella in the "Verum Rex" teaser being bundled up and so unceremoniously thrown offscreen really torpedoes any hope that Nomura ever intended anything different for her than Luna or Kairi despite that one scene with her vs. Noctis that fans clung to for 13 years.
 

Famassu

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,186
Like I said in the spoiler thread -

Not-Stella in the "Verum Rex" teaser being bundled up and so unceremoniously thrown offscreen really torpedoes any hope that Nomura ever intended anything different for her than Luna or Kairi despite that one scene with her vs. Noctis that fans clung to for 13 years.
That happens to everyone in KH, men & women. In many parts, they all seem very weak and incompetent, being thrown around by the bad guys.
 
OP
OP
The Bear

The Bear

Forest Animal
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
4,198
That happens to everyone in KH, men & women. In many parts, they all seem very weak and incompetent, being thrown around by the bad guys.

Sure, but even then...

The men /boys usually still get scenes where they get to be the ones to save the day and the moment, to rescue someone else. None of the ladies get that chance outside Kairis off-screen "she wished sora not to die" moment, which is very debatable on agency.
 

Famassu

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,186
Sure, but even then...

The men /boys usually still get scenes where they get to be the ones to save the day and the moment, to rescue someone else. None of the ladies get that chance outside Kairis off-screen "she wished sora not to die" moment, which is very debatable on agency.
Aqua gets plenty of such scenes and Namine & Xion have their moments too (in the one game where they are featured heavily).

Kairi is absent post-KHII and her handling in KHIII is ultimately pretty bad, but I don't think her journey up until KHIII is too horrible. She starts off as a kind of princess to be rescued but even then she shows willingness to fight once she has been rescued. She just isn't equipped with skills or a Keyblade to fight these forces of darkness, so she stays put. In KHII she gets fed up just waiting for Sora so she takes the first opportunity to go look for him instead of waiting around. Like, yeah, she isn't beating Xehanorts left and right like Sora does, but she isn't just sitting around waiting for things to happen (other than between 1 and 2 when she loses her memories of Sora). I think her longer story arc going from a princess of heart who has to be rescued to not wanting to sit around twiddling her thumbs and to finally training to become a Keyblade wielder is ok. She could have more screen time but overall her journey isn't a horrible one. Even if KHIII wastes most of it.
 

SugarNoodles

Member
Nov 3, 2017
8,625
Portland, OR
Just beat KH3 last night

I found it difficult to believe just how poorly written Kairi's role was in the final part of the story. She literally spends the entire game save for 2 cutscenes training off screen to be able to fight, and even has a couple of lines along the lines of "no, I'm going to fight for you this time, Sora" or "Let me protect you, Sora"

Yet every time she is depicted in combat, it is her flinching or whimpering, and ultimately she just gets dragged off by Xemnas, only to be literally fridged by a villain who gave a half assed reason for why that doesnt really add up when you think about it.

Another really bad moment was when Aqua was competently fighting off Vanitas but then decides instead of using her weapon to jump in front of Ven, spread her arms, and shield him with her chest. Like what the fuck. If you're going to knock someone out of a fight give me a half decent reason.

I didnt expect to be impressed with the ending sequence but I didnt think it would be THAT bad.