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Deathbysound

Member
Oct 27, 2017
612
"....Opponents of her return say she is a threat to the country's security and must live with the consequences of her actions, while critics of her exile say greater human rights principles are at play, and the UK must not shirk its responsibility to administer justice for any alleged crimes she may have committed."

Who is Shamima Begum?

"Ms Begum is one of three east London schoolgirls who travelled to Syria to join the Islamic State group (IS) in February 2015. She was born in the UK to parents of Bangladeshi heritage and was 15 when she left. Ms Begum travelled via Turkey to IS headquarters in Raqqa, where she married a Dutch recruit. Police released CCTV footage of Shamima Begum and her two friends from Gatwick Airport Ms Begum, now 20, lived under IS rule for more than three years. She was found, nine months pregnant, in a Syrian refugee camp in February 2019. The baby later died of pneumonia and Ms Begum said she had previously lost two other children. After she was found, the then home secretary, Sajid Javid, cancelled her British citizenship on security grounds. You can appeal in court against such a decision. Ms Begum did, and the Court of Appeal ruled that she should be allowed to return to the UK to make her case. One of the other girls who travelled with her, Kadiza Sultana, was reportedly killed in a bombing raid, but the fate of the third - Amira Abase - is unknown."

Source: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/explainers-53428191#:~:text=Ms Begum is one of,she married a Dutch recruit.

Was her decision to live under Islamic state a mistake?

"In a way yes but I don't regret it because it changed me as a person, it's made me stronger, tougher you know? I married my husband. I would not have found someone like him back in the UK. I had my kids, you know? I did have a good time there. It's just that at the end, things got harder and I couldn't take it anymore and had to leave."

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wt0bWAWM9sc

Timeline of events in Begum's story

August 1999

Shamima Begum is born in England to parents of Bangladeshi heritage.

February 2015

British counter-terrorism police launch an international hunt to find Begum, then 15, and two other girls, who slipped out of their homes in east London and caught a flight to Istanbul, Turkey, in an attempt to reach Syria. By late February, the Metropolitan police confirm Begum and her companions have reached the conflict-torn country. It is understood Begum has entered the country with the intention of swearing allegiance to Isis, and 10 days after arriving in Syria she marries Yago Riedijk, a Dutch-born convert to Islam and a convicted terrorist.

October 2017

The Syrian city of Raqqa, once considered the de-facto capital of the Isis's self-declared caliphate, falls to US-backed forces. The capture of the city marks a symbolic victory against the terror group, which has been diminished to pockets of remaining fighters spread across Syria and Iraq.

13 February 2019

After a silence of nearly four years, an interview with Begum appears in the Times. The newspaper's correspondent had found Begum, then 19, in al-Hawl refugee camp in north-east Syria. Begum reveals she is nine months pregnant and hopes to return to the UK to raise her child, but does not regret her decision to join Isis. She reveals she had two other children who died of malnutrition.

15 February 2019

A couple of days after the interview is published, Begum gives birth to her third child, Jarrah.

19 February 2019

The UK government serves notice it intends to strip Begum of her citizenship and a deprivation order is made.

The then home secretary, Sajid Javid, writes to her family informing them he has made such an order, believing the fact her parents are of Bangladeshi heritage means she can apply for citizenship of that country – though Begum says she has never visited it.

1 March 2019

Begum's lawyer in the UK, Tasnime Akunjee, confirms Begum has been moved from al-Hawl camp to a different location nearer the Iraqi border following threats made against her.

7 March 2019

Begum's baby son dies in al-Roj camp, sparking a debate over the impact of stripping her of her UK citizenship.

19 March 2019

Her family formally starts court challenges against the home secretary, saying Javid's decision to strip the teenager of her citizenship is unfair.

3 May 2019
Begum applies for "leave to enter" the UK. This is a process under which a person who is neither a British citizen nor a Commonwealth citizen can apply to enter the UK. A limited period and various conditions can be imposed on the individual.

13 June 2019

The government refuses the leave to enter application.

25 June 2019

Begum appeals against the decision to refuse leave to enter.

October 2019

Begum starts appeal against the Home Office's move to revoke her citizenship and prevent her from returning to London. At a partially secret hearing before the Special Immigration Appeals Commission (Siac), lawyers for Begum allege she has been left stateless, is unable to mount a "fair and effective" legal challenge and is at risk of "death, inhuman or degrading treatment".

February 2020

Begum loses the initial stage of her appeal against the Home Office's decision to revoke her UK citizenship. A unanimous judgment by Siac finds against her on three preliminary grounds, including that she had not been improperly deprived of her citizenship. The judgment prevents her from returning to London.

June 2020

Begum's lawyer's challenge Siac's ruling that she has not been rendered stateless because she is entitled to Bangladeshi citizenship. At a two-day online hearing at the court of appeal, her lawyers argue she cannot effectively challenge the government's decision to deprive her of British citizenship while she is in the detention camp in northern Syria.

July 2020

Court of appeal judges rule that Begum should be allowed to return to the UK to challenge the Home Office's decision to revoke her British citizenship in person, partially overturning the earlier ruling by Siac. The government says it will appeal against the ruling and applies for the court's judgement to be stayed until then.

The case continues.

Source: https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/jul/16/shamima-begum-how-the-case-developed
 
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subpar spatula

Refuses to Wash his Ass
Member
Oct 26, 2017
22,124
She was groomed, raped, and basically brain washed. She should be rehabilitated. Anything else is just cruelty.
 

Fiction

Fanthropologist
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,759
Elf Tower, New Mexico
I think that if someone had convinced a 14/15 year old girl to run away and marry them here in the states it would be considered kidnapping/grooming. Given my lack of knowledge on UK consent laws, I can't claim to be an authority on this, but children can be talked into anything, and it seems like these guys target young girls on line to do exactly this.
 

Sibylus

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,728
She was groomed, raped, and basically brain washed. She should be rehabilitated. Anything else is just cruelty.
Could not agree more strongly. The outspoken throng that wants her thrown into a dark hole reminds me of the Khadr case in Canada (he was a child soldier that had his rights violated and sent through Gitmo). Out of sight, out of mind! We're so civilized.

The bloodthirsty howling when the courts ruled that he deserved compensation was something fucking else. It was bad enough in their eyes that he wasn't in a dark cell for the rest of his days, they wanted revenge.

Mod edit: Content removed
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Oct 25, 2017
12,319
She was groomed, raped, and basically brain washed. She should be rehabilitated. Anything else is just cruelty.
Can't disagree, there obviously needs to be some action taken to make sure she is fit to return to society, and I can't imagine it being any time soon, but calls to kill or jail her forever are absolutely disgusting.

Even worse is that we apparently can't discuss or have a topic on it because nobody wants to address why a Mod was banning people who disagreed and tried to take over the conversation.
 

JediTimeBoy

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,810
It's amazing that someone can be brainwashed and still be at risk of having their nationality stripped and yet at the same time, people can openly volunteer to go abroad and fight for the terrorist idf, with no repercussions...
 

Opto

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
4,546
According to previous thread precedent, the following is an acceptable statement in regards to her: She should be imprisoned for the rest of her life.

Of course, anyone who actually thinks that, and pardon the hostility, is a jerk.
 
A Reminder

Nepenthe

When the music hits, you feel no pain.
Administrator
Oct 25, 2017
20,694
This thread is about the case of Shamima Begum. It is not a thread to relitigate dissatisfaction with moderation; if you have any concerns, direct them to administrators. Begum deserves a discussion. Prior posts will be edited; any posts after this that try to derail or are direct attacks on staff will be moderated accordingly.
 

Betty

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
17,604
To anyone, like me, who is letting their emotions and passions interfere with approaching this case calmly and rationally I'd highly suggest choosing to 'ignore' the thread.

Good job on the OP.
 

Opto

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
4,546
User Banned (3 months): Trolling, derailing a sensitive thread to modwhine, prior ban for dismissing racism, a long history of egregious infractions
That's so disappointing to see.

See, I understand the government's position. It's a messy situation, and perhaps unpopular with the power brokers and gammons propping them up. But rather than deal with the facts and have to grapple with the ugliness, they want to push it aside, keeping it out of the view of the citizenry, not deal with her and her actions head on with honest assessment. And with the papers catching wind of this situation, I'm sure the government wishes the appeal on Shamima's side's process was much quieter, and not have their abuse of power exposed. I'm sure if the Begums privately appealed to the ministers, everything would be work out for the better.
 

Cantaim

Member
Oct 25, 2017
33,349
The Stussining
Did some reading on this after I last heard about this woman. Yea I definitely have the opinion that the UK government has the blood of her third child on their hands. I am confident that the kid would still be alive had she been able to come back.

She also really deserves rehabilitation and not more punishment.
 

Heromanz

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
20,202
User Banned (1 month): Derailing a sensitive thread to modwhine, an incredibly long history of egregious infractions
This thread is about the case of Shamima Begum. It is not a thread to relitigate dissatisfaction with moderation; if you have any concerns, direct them to administrators. Begum deserves a discussion. Prior posts will be edited; any posts after this that try to derail or are direct attacks on staff will be moderated accordingly.
So are yall not going to unban
Salty_Josh
Lord of Ostia
Inapplicable

or will the mod team continue to lock threads or remove post?
 

Papa Satanás

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
863
no
User Banned (permanent): Derailing a sensitive thread to modwhine, a long history of attacking staff
She deserved a discussion and might have had one before you know who said something you know stupid.
 

Prine

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
15,724
Crazy that we can trial serial killers, murderers, repeat rapists, IRA/Nazi terrorist but need to debate if our courts can cope with her? The threat to the public would be the same as those mentioned or other local extremist, we have procedures to handle them, with the main point being is that she's known and under the eye of our security service. Our courts and laws are robust enough to see her put to trial, she's not a special case that we need to revoke her citizenship and deny her human & birth right, unless they want to admit that a she's special case to them due to obvious reasons.
 
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Kay

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
2,077
Governments shouldn't be able to take away your citizenship period imo. Too much of a slippery slope.
 

Absolute

Banned
Nov 6, 2017
2,090
Thank you Deathbysound for making this thread to discuss this very serious topic that is a major issue in western europe as well as the UK. Also thanks to mods for moderating and not shutting down the discussion of the topic. I would hope that the bans could be less severe though given how heated people still are.
 

Z-Beat

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
31,846
I think that if someone had convinced a 14/15 year old girl to run away and marry them here in the states it would be considered kidnapping/grooming. Given my lack of knowledge on UK consent laws, I can't claim to be an authority on this, but children can be talked into anything, and it seems like these guys target young girls on line to do exactly this.

US does have its own history of people being pulled out of cults and being de-brainwashed. Granted whether or not that was attempted seems to be based on severity of your actions, among other things (racist things). In this case they probably should've brought her and her 3rd kid back, and the kid probably would've been put with the relatives while Begum got sent to a psych ward for some serious de-brainwashing.
 

Absolute

Banned
Nov 6, 2017
2,090
Do it really matter to the tories that this might go bad for them? That shithead Boris has weathered so much crap and they have a big majority for the next 4 years. Just look at the handling of Dominic Cuntings. They can just ignore criticism. All that is important that this woman is given her rights as a human and tried fairly which would mean she is not left to rot in prison for the rest of her life like scumbag gammons want.
 

FF Seraphim

Member
Oct 26, 2017
13,724
Tokyo
She should be allowed back in to be rehabilitated. Anyone who disagrees with that is insane in my eye. She was only what 14/15 years old and at that age, super easy to manipulate.
Also the government should not be able to easily take away someone's citizenship without some trial.
 

Menchi

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,143
UK
She deserves a trial, and her citizenship should never have been revoked.

Whilst I fully believe she is a victim of grooming/sexual abuse, I also don't believe that absolves her of her actions in supporting a genocidal death cult. It isn't in the OP, but there are enough of her own statements that can give legitimacy to the idea that she still harbours support for ISIS, and referred to those murdered by ISIS as "enemies of Islam" - It suggests a massive level of radicalisation remains, even more so when informed of the Manchester bombings, she "whatabout'ed"

Further, there have been reports over the years that she wasn't just a house wife, but actually took part in enforcement of ISIS ideologies, and stitched fighters into suicide vests, that couldn't be removed without exploding.

When she had her citizenship unfairly revoked, she was abandoned by the UK Gov and so was her child, who sadly died, so in essence was killed by the UK Gov. this is unforgivable. She remains the responsibility of the UK, and deserves to go on trial for her crimes, with whatever mitigating circumstances there are.

My problem specifically with the last thread, was there was an almost black and white approach taken with no nuance whatsoever in an extremely complex case that has many factors.

I believe you can 100% believe she is a victim of grooming/indoctrination and sexual abuse, whilst also acknowledging that her statements and alleged actions are abhorrent, and that said abuse does not absolve her of those actions.

I'm unlikely to believe said punishment for those actions, given the mitigating factors, should result in life imprisonment, rather a program of deradicalisation, mental health support, and confinement until it is deemed safe for her to return to society. How long that would take is up to the mental health professionals who treat her. I suspect given the death of her child, which she'd be 100% correct to blame on the UK Gov, could contribute to lengthening this, as would the reaction of the UK to her in general.

She is further a victim of media destruction, no doubt owing to her young age and gender, being an easy target for right wing media in playing her as the ideal "jihadi bride" who willingly gave an interview which in essence indicted herself further. It is shown in them failing to show the same level of condemnation for ISIS members (often men, sometimes white) who returned, and received prison time with little fanfare.

It is a terribly sad case, but as stated, I simply can't agree that she is absolved of everything given her being a victim
 

sirap

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,210
South East Asia
galv made an excellent post in the previous thread that I'd love to repost, but won't, for obvious reasons. The gist of it is that this situation is a lot more complex than the tabloids or people make it out to be, and giving her chance is the right and humane thing to do. Those so quick to shut her down should ask themselves why they think that way (and I admit, ignorance made me one of them not too long ago).

She deserves a fair trial and rehabilitation.
 

Zellia

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,769
UK
User banned (1 month): ignoring staff post, derailing a sensitive thread to modwhine
It's wrong that a person's privileges can be revoked because the powers that be find them inconvenient.

But enough about Ostia, Inapplicable and Salty_Josh, Begum deserves to have a fair trial too.
 
Oct 26, 2017
6,572
The publicity stunt of stripping this woman of her citizenship was ridiculous from the get go. That much was never in question by anyone with even a shred of understanding or a working brain cell left in their skulls.
The phenomenon of groomed terror brides is one that should be researched thoroughly by authorities. I don't believe she should get off without repercussions.
Her being groomed doesn't absolve her of the abhorrent shit she did and supported however.
A person can be both a victim and a criminal. One does not erase the other.
But this judgement should be made in the UK by a court, after examining the evidence and expert testimony. The Tories made this woman an undeserved martyr by throwing away the rule of law because of their raging racism.
 

olag

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
2,106
Yea this is going to get messy. She should definitely be tried, imprisoned and eventually rehabilitated here but I fear that tory controlled government and media will use her to pretty much rally the core racist conservative base and consolidate influence :(
 

AHA-Lambda

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,802
The loss of citizenship is a real messy precedent to set, so no surprise courts have pushed back on that

In her particular case otherwise though, she should absolutely be in jail imo
 

iapetus

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,078
Further, there have been reports over the years that she wasn't just a house wife, but actually took part in enforcement of ISIS ideologies, and stitched fighters into suicide vests, that couldn't be removed without exploding.

As pointed out in the last thread, these reports only come from incredibly suspect sources. When asked, nobody could show any story about this that wasn't directly or indirectly sourced from the Daily Mail or Telegraph, or that has any actual evidence behind it.

My problem specifically with the last thread, was there was an almost black and white approach taken with no nuance whatsoever in an extremely complex case that has many factors.

I don't agree with that. There were a lot of people taking the view that she had been groomed, indoctrinated and sexually abused (all pretty much undeniably true) and that she should be treated as a victim, but should also face consequences for what she had done.

There were also, sadly, people explicitly denying her victim status because of her actions (or alleged actions) subsequent to what happened when she was 14 or less and reacting aggressively to any suggestion that targeted grooming of a child made any difference. That's where the lack of nuance clearly lay in the previous thread.
 

iapetus

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,078
A thought experiment for any parents out there who cling to the "at that age you're old enough to know what you're doing" line. From the age of, say, twelve did you or are you planning to give your child free and unfettered access to the internet with no oversight and no checks on what they're doing?

If not, why not?
 

Menchi

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,143
UK
As pointed out in the last thread, these reports only come from incredibly suspect sources. When asked, nobody could show any story about this that wasn't directly or indirectly sourced from the Daily Mail or Telegraph, or that has any actual evidence behind it.

The apparent sources for those papers were anti-ISIS activists - https://twitter.com/aghiad_alkheder?lang=en - That's the twitter for the source quoted, and it seems pretty legitimate. I don't have any qualms beleiving the claims from the activist, given we're arguing she was groomed/indoctrinated, so if we accept that, we can accept that she'd also be prepared to go along with what the indoctrination asked of her, no? Especially tied with her own verified statements in interviews.

I don't agree with that. There were a lot of people taking the view that she had been groomed, indoctrinated and sexually abused (all pretty much undeniably true) and that she should be treated as a victim, but should also face consequences for what she had done.

There were also, sadly, people explicitly denying her victim status because of her actions (or alleged actions) subsequent to what happened when she was 14 or less and reacting aggressively to any suggestion that targeted grooming of a child made any difference. That's where the lack of nuance clearly lay in the previous thread.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. Some of the banned posters never once referred to Shamima as being guilty of anything other than being a victim. Maybe the need to point that they felt she was a victim, but also needed to be held accountable was lost in the shitstorm that commenced, but I didn't see it in a number of posts.

There was also a very suspect post, that was never responded to when I quoted it, which seemed to equivocate victims of sex rings with Shamima. That removed any sense of wrong doing from Shamima and made her seem wholly a victim that didn't go on to join a genocidal death cult.

The thread is still available for others to read, and I'd rather not talk too much about it, as it was truly a shitshow, but there were clearly people who both failed to recognise her as a victim and all, and those who failed to recognise her as having any accountability either.
 

Westbahnhof

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
10,105
Austria
The loss of citizenship is a real messy precedent to set, so no surprise courts have pushed back on that

In her particular case otherwise though, she should absolutely be in jail imo
I wouldn't go with "absolutely", because even besides the citizenship loss, there is a LOT of messy stuff to unpack here.
A 15 year old girl gets groomed (abused) into the role of a child bride. That's not a healthy basis for development, as you might guess, and just sending her to jail is ignoring that this woman needs help, first and foremost, and that everything she did, she did in a state of needing help.
I'm not trying to absolve her of any and all guilt, here, but "she should absolutely be in jail" is... a bit too simple, no? How long? And what should happen after that?
 

Timmm

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,888
Manchester, UK
As pointed out in the last thread, these reports only come from incredibly suspect sources. When asked, nobody could show any story about this that wasn't directly or indirectly sourced from the Daily Mail or Telegraph, or that has any actual evidence behind it.

Quite. The fact that this has been ignored and these statements still repeated is extremely suspect to be honest

The Mail and the Telegraph are both extremely islamophobic and should not be trusted as primary sources on Begum's case (or anything for that matter)
 

Menchi

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,143
UK
Quite. The fact that this has been ignored and these statements still repeated is extremely suspect to be honest

The Mail and the Telegraph are both extremely islamophobic and should not be trusted as primary sources on Begum's case (or anything for that matter)

The statements were sourced from an anti-ISIS activist. His twitter is here https://twitter.com/aghiad_alkheder?lang=en. If you're going to make implications on peoples characters, have the decency to quote them.
 

Ferrs

Avenger
Oct 26, 2017
18,829
She deserves a trial, and her citizenship should never have been revoked.

Whilst I fully believe she is a victim of grooming/sexual abuse, I also don't believe that absolves her of her actions in supporting a genocidal death cult. It isn't in the OP, but there are enough of her own statements that can give legitimacy to the idea that she still harbours support for ISIS, and referred to those murdered by ISIS as "enemies of Islam" - It suggests a massive level of radicalisation remains, even more so when informed of the Manchester bombings, she "whatabout'ed"

Further, there have been reports over the years that she wasn't just a house wife, but actually took part in enforcement of ISIS ideologies, and stitched fighters into suicide vests, that couldn't be removed without exploding.

When she had her citizenship unfairly revoked, she was abandoned by the UK Gov and so was her child, who sadly died, so in essence was killed by the UK Gov. this is unforgivable. She remains the responsibility of the UK, and deserves to go on trial for her crimes, with whatever mitigating circumstances there are.

My problem specifically with the last thread, was there was an almost black and white approach taken with no nuance whatsoever in an extremely complex case that has many factors.

I believe you can 100% believe she is a victim of grooming/indoctrination and sexual abuse, whilst also acknowledging that her statements and alleged actions are abhorrent, and that said abuse does not absolve her of those actions.

I'm unlikely to believe said punishment for those actions, given the mitigating factors, should result in life imprisonment, rather a program of deradicalisation, mental health support, and confinement until it is deemed safe for her to return to society. How long that would take is up to the mental health professionals who treat her. I suspect given the death of her child, which she'd be 100% correct to blame on the UK Gov, could contribute to lengthening this, as would the reaction of the UK to her in general.

She is further a victim of media destruction, no doubt owing to her young age and gender, being an easy target for right wing media in playing her as the ideal "jihadi bride" who willingly gave an interview which in essence indicted herself further. It is shown in them failing to show the same level of condemnation for ISIS members (often men, sometimes white) who returned, and received prison time with little fanfare.

It is a terribly sad case, but as stated, I simply can't agree that she is absolved of everything given her being a victim

For what I know about this story this is where I stand. This story is very very complicated.
 

Timmm

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,888
Manchester, UK
The statements were sourced from an anti-ISIS activist. His twitter is here https://twitter.com/aghiad_alkheder?lang=en. If you're going to make implications on peoples characters, have the decency to quote them.

And yet, the only papers that will quote this activist are The Mail and The Telegraph. If these are the only newspapers willing to quote that source then I would suggest that source isn't all that
 

SupremeWu

Banned
Dec 19, 2017
2,856
User Banned (Permanent): Derailing a sensitive thread to modwhine, a history of egregious infractions including severe bans for dismissing racism and transphobia
Is it modwhine to point out that the fact that you need a specific enfraction named after perceived modding issues -- that may be indicating a larger problem?
 

chancellor

Member
Oct 26, 2017
141
We should not be stripping the fighters who went to join ISIS of their citizenship, they are the UK's problem to deal with.

Re Begum - Bring her back and put her on trial for terrorism charges. Her grooming is a mitigating factor when it comes to her sentence if found gulty but she has still joined ISIS - an terror organisation which caused a lot of suffering for the citizens in Syria - so a criminal case should still be brought against her.

I think one of the reasons her citizenship will have been revoked will be that the evidence needed to put her on trial in the UK will be limited. She might come back and not face any criminal sanctions which many people will be apoplectic about and would be embarrassing for the UK government
 

Westbahnhof

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
10,105
Austria
And yet, the only papers that will quote this activist are The Mail and The Telegraph. If these are the only newspapers willing to quote that source then I would suggest that source isn't all that
Google showed me that Falter(a left-liberal magazine in Austria) interviewed him too. Whatever that's worth, but I felt I should point that out.
 

MrCibb

Member
Dec 12, 2018
5,349
UK
I don't see how their should even be a debate. If they're a British citizen, they're Britain's problem. They should return to the country to stand trial and be sentenced accordingly based on what they did and their current state of mind e.g. can they be rehabilitated? End of. Begum is no exception, and we could have saved an innocent baby if acting properly.

Regarding Begum herself, she was a victim of grooming and manipulation at 15 years of age. That needs to be taken into account. However I don't believe that absolves her of joining and supporting a terrorist group. She is also 21 years of age now, and last year in her interview with the The Times she still espoused various ISIS view-points. A child is a product of those around them, but I hold an adult responsible for what they say and think. I wouldn't want a child to interact with her saying those things, that'd be dangerous. So I don't see her as a victim today and she should return to the UK to be given a fair trial, but I do consider her somewhat of a tragedy. All those years ago when she was first manipulated and first got onto a plane to go to Syria, a young person was failed that day.

The debate should be more how to protect our children from online grooming, imo. I'd rather stop what happened to Begum from happening to other children, rather than discuss what to do with them after its already happened. And sadly it happens every day still.
 
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Menchi

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,143
UK
And yet, the only papers that will quote this activist are The Mail and The Telegraph. If these are the only newspapers willing to quote that source then I would suggest that source isn't all that

So the point I made about the thread being black and white before applies pretty damn well in this case. You're essentially trying to whitewash Shamima of any wrongdoing or accountability. The source is an anti-ISIS acitivist, can you elaborate on why exactly he'd be uhh... attacking Shamima's character? What exactly would he gain from that? He has been quoted by other papers in different countries. He is the co-founder of an org dedicated to opposing Assad, ISIS and seeks to empower the people of Syria...

Could you please tell me why his word is so easy for you to dismiss when you're talking about someone who had been indoctrinated/groomed into thinking in a certain way, someone who referred to people murdered by ISIS as "enemies of Islam" on footage you can still see to this day. Is it not very possible, considering even after the fall of ISIS, she was saying such things, that whilst she was actually in ISIS that'd she'd be along with the ideology?
 

Doukou

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,530
Rehabilitating could lead to some positives like learning about the indoctrination/combating the tatics while also having a voice that could fight against it. Punishment doesn't really benefit anyone. She should at least be given the chance and could serve time(or probably some form of house arrest) while being rehabilitated.

I mean lets be real here if she gets put in a prison without any real rehabilitation effort she'll probably end up becoming a bigger problem.
 

Deleted member 3196

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,280
She is a British citizen, so we need to take responsibility for her. That means not removing her citizenship (which was a plainly racist thing to do so - what're the chances a white girl would have her citizenship removed?), bringing her back into the country, de-radicalising her if possible and putting her on trial for any crimes she may have committed. That is the responsibility of a modern society when wrongs have been committed against and by individuals.

This is such a complex issue that I'm not going to go through the morality of whether she's a victim or a perpetrator or both, and where her responsibility begins and ends, as that's for our justice system to decide. But the one immutable fact is that she holds British citizenship, and for that reason alone we should've brought her back. From there, any treatment and prosecution is another matter.

While I think everything about this story is a tragedy, the biggest one is the death of her baby. I don't know if we could've prevented his death, but it's like we didn't even try. What did he do wrong to die in a refugee camp?