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"The British Museum is world's largest receiver of stolen goods", says QC
- Thread starter Sqrt
- Start date
No shocker, every time I think of a British museum, I picture stolen African artifacts in my head.
Queen's Counsel
Lawyer/barrister
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Queen's Counsel. A very highly respected lawyer or Barrister in the UK, Australia and probably other commonwealth nations. I've spoken to a QC who works at my university and if he's a standard for QCs, then they're pretty intimidating with just how measured, purposive and educated they are.
Way, way overdue.
I like the film, but its politics are problematic, like all of Marvel's movies really.
They made him the bad guy and the white CIA dude who help re-install the pro-western Monarch is a good guy.
I like the film, but its politics are problematic, like all of Marvel's movies really.
Absolutely agree... Geoffrey Robertson is good people, and a very smart thinker.
He's well known here in Aus... he had an excellent tv show over here.
That said... as a tourist, it's fantastic being able to learn about the cultures and art of the many places whilst going to only one city. The British museums are amazing and I thoroughly recommend them to everyone.
A lot of those goods were brought to Britain during a different time.
Should those items be repatriated... probably, but the UK could also offer to buy them, or offer some kind of cultural exchange.
He's well known here in Aus... he had an excellent tv show over here.
That said... as a tourist, it's fantastic being able to learn about the cultures and art of the many places whilst going to only one city. The British museums are amazing and I thoroughly recommend them to everyone.
A lot of those goods were brought to Britain during a different time.
Should those items be repatriated... probably, but the UK could also offer to buy them, or offer some kind of cultural exchange.
There's a really hilarious pamphlet near the Elgin Marbles, intended to justify not giving them to the Acropolis Museum, that seems to get longer every time I visit. It says something like "We feel that historical objects can offer different experiences in different contexts, and feel that [something something colonialism] provides an illuminating backdrop for these amazing reliefs..."
To be perfectly blunt, it's kind of a "no shit Sherlock" statement. Nearly every museum operates this way, especially when you consider how much of the rotating exhibits are part of private collections. The British Museum's just a lot more obvious about it with the winged Assyrian lions, the Greek frescoes, and the Rosetta Stone on permanent display. It is an amazing museum to visit because of the artifacts though.
Well yea obviously.
And the Kohinoor diamond in the Crown Jewels was taken from India/Pakistan...and while some Indians/Pakistanis have campaigned to get it back the Crown has firmly refused to do so. They say it was legally obtained but in reality it was just a coerced political takeover with confiscation of all royal properties and they even made a special mention of the Kohinoor in the treaty that was signed as part of this takeover.
And the Kohinoor diamond in the Crown Jewels was taken from India/Pakistan...and while some Indians/Pakistanis have campaigned to get it back the Crown has firmly refused to do so. They say it was legally obtained but in reality it was just a coerced political takeover with confiscation of all royal properties and they even made a special mention of the Kohinoor in the treaty that was signed as part of this takeover.
While QC does mean Queens Counsel, it doesn't literally mean they advise the Queen. It's more of a sign of esteem in the legal community. Also, when a king takes over, it will change to K.C.
I'm a little conflicted about this issue.
On one hand I totally get that it's weird to have cultural artifacts stuck in a foreign place. I would personally feel a little strange if the only surviving copy of the Magna Carta was locked away in Malaysia or something. On the other hand British museums are some of the best in the world and the artifacts there receive top notch care. Not saying every country making claims is dangerous or unstable, but when I watch videos of groups like ISIS destroying ancient artifacts left and right I can't help but wish they had been under better protection.
I also get that philosophically some might say that it's the right of the successor civilizations to control these artifacts, for better or for worse. If you're looking at things from a humanist "world heritage" perspective then care and accessibility should be the main concerns.
On one hand I totally get that it's weird to have cultural artifacts stuck in a foreign place. I would personally feel a little strange if the only surviving copy of the Magna Carta was locked away in Malaysia or something. On the other hand British museums are some of the best in the world and the artifacts there receive top notch care. Not saying every country making claims is dangerous or unstable, but when I watch videos of groups like ISIS destroying ancient artifacts left and right I can't help but wish they had been under better protection.
I also get that philosophically some might say that it's the right of the successor civilizations to control these artifacts, for better or for worse. If you're looking at things from a humanist "world heritage" perspective then care and accessibility should be the main concerns.
Funny how it is always the looters and colonizers that get to decide what is "humanist" and "world heritage".
1st thing I thought of.
This flim hits more of a racial nerve than most Spike Lee joints. 😉
this applies for everything right not just european museums holding non european artifacts but even intra-european
should Da Vinci's Mona Lisa go back to Italy? etc. etc. etc.
should Da Vinci's Mona Lisa go back to Italy? etc. etc. etc.
Groups like ISIS wouldn't exist if the British (and others) didn't treat those regions of the world like a shooting gallery for the past 500 years.
People need to stop saying this, it's not even remotely true. The Mona Lisa was sold to the French monarchy by its original owner, Da Vinci's assistant, it was by no means stolen
I pretty sure they grave robbed most of the eqyptian stuff themselves
False equivalence. There is zero evidence that the Mona Lisa was sold through coercion. Italy does not recognize any ownership over it and doesn't want it back. It's a horrible example that comes up all the time that muddies the water and weakens the case for things that should actually be repatriated.
We had a thread about that a while back. It got white man's burden-y real quick.
This is such an unresolvable debate. The diamond had changed hands literally dozens of times as war booty, with Victoria affectively being the final recipient. The transfer to Victoria via the EIC is just notable , for the pretence of legalism. Because of its history, India, Pakistan, Afghanistan and arguably Iran all could make a claim that it is "theirs". There is no equitable solution that will satisfy all claimants.
It's not about things being sold through coercion. In fact I'm sure many of the people who sold their artifacts to the British for, relative to their local circumstances, likely very generous amounts were more than happy to do so and would not describe their situation as coercion. How is that any different from Da Vinci's poor assistant Salai selling the Mona Lisa he inherited to the French monarchy? Either they're both wrong or neither are.
Also you're wrong about Italy not recognizing ownership - they have asked many times if there was a way to have it returned and the French government has refused.
There is a an example sort of similar to what you say with the Magna Carta. The 1800s London Bridge is now in Arizona. It was sold to some rich guy in the 1960s since the bridge could not handle modern traffic in London.
I'd actually be very curious to see if in a few hundred years the people who inhabit the land of Great Britain want the bridge back. I could see some people saying the City of London was coerced into selling London Bridge to a rich capitalist and it is effectively stolen property and they demand it be returned since it is a culturally significant artifact in British history.
Well it would be the country where it spent most of its time and has the longest history with which would be India/Pakistan. The Afganistan claim was made by Taliban, hardly a credible source. Whereas the earliest reliable documentation of the gem goes back to the 15th century where the founder of the Mughal empire talks about receiving it from the previous ruler who in turn said that he got it from Southern India (which is often claimed to be its origin point though no one knows).
But I know it's unresolvable
You're missing the point. Italy does not want it. They don't recognize it as it stolen. Salai was not a particularly poor man, he inherited a large portion of Da Vinci's land, paintings, and property. He could have easily lived of off that without selling them if he had so chosen. There is no evidence that he was forced to sell his Da Vinci paintings for any reason but his own personal enrichment and he had connections to the contemporary art world that would have ensured that he could have found a buyer anywhere that would have paid a sufficient price for them. It is not relevant to any discussion of repatriation. There are millions of objects that were in the position you are describing, but the Mona Lisa is not one of them, and by bringing it up it distracts from their plight
It doesn't ends in the UK without colonialism, it's a symbol of Britain's greatest crime and to put in on the head of the monarch is I think kinda gross.
I personally don't think legal documents signed under colonialism should hold no sway on our modern world, but even if you do, even if you think it is "legally" belong to the UK, think of it as the first down payment on the reparation the UK owe India.
The UK is still going to be deeply in the red after that.
Yeah. They wrote him as the bad guy, that's my point.
But maybe we shouldn't derail this thread further.
Italy -regularly- petitions to have the Mona Lisa returned and sees it as one of their cultural artifacts, so I don't know what you're talking about. It is also the popular position in Italy to see it returned. It is a painting of an Italian created by an Italian for an Italian that was transferred to a private collection full of other stolen artifacts after the artist's death. And even if you think Francis I deservedly received it - what relation does that have to the Louvre today, and why do they deserve to have it any more than The British Museum deserves what they received from Thomas Bruce?
Learn how to watch movies.
As for this thread, I'll wait for the same jackasses from the similar thread we had last time to come with the same nonsense they were spouting before.
You see, these uncivilized brown folk just don't appreciate their own history. Truly a white man's burden.
OP
OP
The British Museum has gold crafts that belong to my ancestors on display . I say give them back.
The some pretty problematic stuff with involving Orientalism too but that isn't the thread for this
OT: NO FUCK SHIT. England is the king of swagger jacking
Well, this thing happened.
Some of the Summer Palace's history artifacts were return but many still remains at large in the west.
Some of the Summer Palace's history artifacts were return but many still remains at large in the west.
Yep. Pretty piss poor representation of scary muslin terrorists too. I cringed through all of that act.
I will say despite it's problems, it is the best Marvel movie and has a positive message overall.