• Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.

WindUp

Member
Oct 30, 2017
1,396


I'm probably reading this incorrectly, but does "emulators and ROMS are treated differently" actually apply here? Since Slippi is an emulator modification and not a ROM modification. I'm certain that as a copyright lawyer, David has a better grasp of the situation than I do, just want to understand what I'm missing here.
 

h0mebas3

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
424
The right to host a video game event is not worth the ruination of one's life and the loss of one's rights. Which is what happens when you go to jail, and even after you are released. You lose your rights.

This isn't Nintendo taking away someone's citizenship, or family, or right to vote. It's a fucking video game event.

Financial ruin isn't something you can just shrug off and move on from, lmao. Can't believe people expect others to ruin their lives as if it's nothing from the safety of your room, lmao. You can't say "I think they should sacrifice everything, if they lose everything so be it." How about YOU sacrifice everything?

All I'm saying is that if they feel they are being wronged as they stated they have they should stand their ground. Maybe they are responsible for a landmark court case. Maybe not and they lose everything they've worked for. Either way, they have their principles and piece of mind and that is priceless.
 

EllipsisBreak

One Winged Slayer
Member
Aug 6, 2019
2,152


EnN9pWtVkAIe1Me

This is so frustrating. Slippi is an emulator, not a mod. And emulators absolutely do not require illegal copies of games. That is a basic fact, and is well-established in court already.

Besides, we're talking about competitive Melee players here. Do you really think they don't own a copy of Melee? Come on.
 

EllipsisBreak

One Winged Slayer
Member
Aug 6, 2019
2,152
All I'm saying is that if they feel they are being wronged as they stated they have they should stand their ground. Maybe they are responsible for a landmark court case. Maybe not and they lose everything they've worked for. Either way, they have their principles and piece of mind and that is priceless.
It's more complicated than that. Bleem stood its ground and went to court, and won, and it was a landmark case that we talk about to this day. But they lost everything anyway. You pretty much have to be rich to go up against a massive company like this.
 

Elfforkusu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,098
i would wager a lot of melee players in the scene do not own a copy, yes
How many is "a lot"? Let's talk %s here...

Also, this is such a specious argument. They aren't making new copies of melee, piracy and the used market are making nintendo exactly the same $0 at this point. The money they're "losing" is whatever interest is in the old game instead of their new game (which is their real basis for this, most likely)
 

Raccoon

Member
May 31, 2019
15,896
This is so frustrating. Slippi is an emulator, not a mod. And emulators absolutely do not require illegal copies of games. That is a basic fact, and is well-established in court already.

Besides, we're talking about competitive Melee players here. Do you really think they don't own a copy of Melee? Come on.
technically there is no such thing as a legal copy of a game

that's what they're talking about, ROMs aren't strictly legal. when you buy a game you buy the license to use it on original hardware, that's it

edit: probs not true as pointed out below
 
Last edited:

Elfforkusu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,098
All I'm saying is that if they feel they are being wronged as they stated they have they should stand their ground. Maybe they are responsible for a landmark court case. Maybe not and they lose everything they've worked for. Either way, they have their principles and piece of mind and that is priceless.
It's much easier to say this when you're an anonymous internet guy and not the person who's going to spend the rest of their life paying legal fees from capitalist debtor's prison.

Fwiw
 

Raccoon

Member
May 31, 2019
15,896
How many is "a lot"? Let's talk %s here...

Also, this is such a specious argument. They aren't making new copies of melee, piracy and the used market are making nintendo exactly the same $0 at this point. The money they're "losing" is whatever interest is in the old game instead of their new game (which is their real basis for this, most likely)
emulation is at odds with their future business. look at how many people derided the mario collection because they could just emulate the games for free. what if Nintendo wanted to make a Melee Online at some point down the line and the fan scene had done it for free already?

it sucks, but it's perfectly reasonable from a business perspective
 

WindUp

Member
Oct 30, 2017
1,396
technically there is no such thing as a legal copy of a game

that's what they're talking about, ROMs aren't strictly legal. when you buy a game you buy the license to use it on original hardware, that's it
Is this true? My understanding of the issue comes from the Bleem! case, which protected the consumer right to copy a legally purchased game.
 

EllipsisBreak

One Winged Slayer
Member
Aug 6, 2019
2,152
technically there is no such thing as a legal copy of a game

that's what they're talking about, ROMs aren't strictly legal. when you buy a game you buy the license to use it on original hardware, that's it
No.
en.wikipedia.org

Bleem! - Wikipedia

Two days after Bleem! started taking preorders for their emulator, Sony filed suit against them alleging that they were violating their rights and that providing access for PlayStation games to run on non-Sony hardware constituted unfair competition.
Ultimately Bleem! won in court and a protective order was issued to "protect David from Goliath". Sony lost on all counts, including Bleem!'s use of screenshots of PlayStation games on its packaging. The court noted that Bleem!'s use of copyrighted screenshots was considered fair use and should be allowed to continue.
It is legal to play a game you own on hardware it wasn't intended to be played on. This was established long ago.
 
OP
OP
Soulflarz

Soulflarz

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,803
whoa, I could be wrong there

it could be just what Nintendo wants you to believe, similarly to how warranty void stickers are actually not binding in the US
That's why its annoying as shit, Nintendo's basically going against what courts have ruled. Their only ground would be we all pirated melee or some shit, which is not in good faith to us as consumers.
 

Dymaxion

Member
Sep 19, 2018
1,138
Nintendo sucks for having poor online infrastructure, not providing good access to their legacy content (GameCube games in particular), and not supporting Melee fans despite the very vocal demand. They are wasting so much potential for competitors and spectators alike, and it's maddening.

That said, I'm not a fan of the competitive Smash community either for reasons others have already mentioned. While they really need good online tournaments to mitigate some of the harm and abuse they hurl to each other, and it sucks that they can't get that from Nintendo, I honestly don't mind the competitive scene going dark until Nintendo and that community gets their shit together.
 

Deleted member 76797

Alt-Account
Banned
Aug 1, 2020
2,091
2 things I truly don't understand

1. why is melee still so popular
2. why hasn't nintendo released an online version to capitalize on its popularity
 
OP
OP
Soulflarz

Soulflarz

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,803
Don't blame them. Whole community is a zest pool

Can we not.

2 things I truly don't understand

1. why is melee still so popular
2. why hasn't nintendo released an online version to capitalize on its popularity

Extreme creativity is allowed in a competitive game that's still 1:1 like a fighting game. There's honestly nothing like it with such a high mechanical skill ceiling without needing said level of mechanics to get anywhere. It's extremely interesting.

Hell it's why I love it and Rocket League.

They're also extremely beginner unfriendly for a competitive game, in terms of actual improvement and ability to "jump right in", which is not a good thing in Nintendo's book surely..
 

Hailinel

Shamed a mod for a tag
Member
Oct 27, 2017
35,527
just wanna say "it's within their legal rights" is the same BS Rudy is using to spread the voter fraud shit. just because nintendo "can" doesn't mean they should, or that you should just support them
Comparing this to the Trump campaign's dumbfuck legal attempts to overturn the U.S. presidential election that get laughed out of court is not as solid a comparison as you seem to think.
 

TimeFire

Avenger
Nov 26, 2017
9,625
Brazil
2 things I truly don't understand

1. why is melee still so popular
2. why hasn't nintendo released an online version to capitalize on its popularity

1. game is good

2. nintendo doesn't like 1. because they want everyone to play the latest smash but they also refuse to make the latest smash similar to the only one with lasting impact
 

h0mebas3

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
424
It's more complicated than that. Bleem stood its ground and went to court, and won, and it was a landmark case that we talk about to this day. But they lost everything anyway. You pretty much have to be rich to go up against a massive company like this.

Funny you mention Bleem--I actually found a brand new copy of MGS for Bleem in my garage that I never opened...but I digress

It is complicated but if they are willing to leverage their home, their savings, their vehicle, etc...they could legitimately make a stand even if it was just for a few months until they ran out of money and conceded. If they stood up to Nintendo even if they became destitute it would send such a strong message about what the FGC won't stand for.
 

SpaceCrystal

Banned
Apr 1, 2019
7,714
They want to send a message that Slippi is not condoned for online tournaments under any circumstance.

Nintendo is (and hopefully still is, even after this) a big sponsor of previous Big House tournaments and that probably played a big part in this C&D. Don't want their name on a tournament with 3rd-party mods.

It's their fault for not wanting to give Ultimate better online multiplayer in the first place. Had they done so, then 3rd party mods with better online wouldn't be needed.
 

delete12345

One Winged Slayer
Member
Nov 17, 2017
19,665
Boston, MA
Slippi is an emulator, not a mod.
According to the wiki page, it's a Melee netcode tool. It's not emulating any functionality. I think you're mixing it up with the custom Dolphin branch with Slippi integration, which is the emulator.

www.ssbwiki.com

Project Slippi

Project Slippi is an ongoing project that aims to give Super Smash Bros. Melee several major quality of life features originally not present in the game. As of June 2020, the features currently included are automatically saved replays, live match...
 

Theanine

Member
Oct 3, 2020
147
Slippi was apparently coded by a single person and does online play better than Ultimate. That potentially makes Nintendo look really pathetic. And the irony is that I would never have learned about it if they hadn't taken this action against it.

This is one of those cases where, even though they might be legally in the right, the damage to their reputation and image is greater from taking action on it vs. just letting the community do its thing.
 

h0mebas3

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
424
It's much easier to say this when you're an anonymous internet guy and not the person who's going to spend the rest of their life paying legal fees from capitalist debtor's prison.

Fwiw

They implied they feel victimized and said this is wrong. The only way to fight what is wrong is to take a stand even if it means you and your loved ones lose everything in the process. They will forever be remembered for taking on Nintendo.
 

etrain911

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,807
A lot of people in this thread are conflating legal arguments with moralistic arguments, just because Nintendo CAN push around tournament holders like this with their army of lawyers even though the claim itself is legally ambiguous, doesn't mean they SHOULD or that it is a moral good. Smash is billed as being a celebration of gaming history and culture. To treat the most ardent fans of the franchise like this leaves a sour taste in my mouth and comes off as Nintendo salty that Melee has better netcode than anything Ultimate has to offer because fans know how to do it better. What did Sega do when they saw passionate fans making projects that inspired their developers? They brought them aboard as new talent. Arguably Sega's relationship with the fans is part of what keeps the Sonic franchise financially viable. Now, Nintendo doesn't have to worry about that because Smash stands atop the shoulders of titan IPs but maybe they should care a little more about fan sentiment and image.
 

spam musubi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,380
It's their fault for not wanting to give Ultimate better online multiplayer in the first place. Had they done so, then 3rd party mods with better online wouldn't be needed.

That's capitalism for you. The "free market" is a lie - Nintendo have no incentive to build a better product when they can just use their dominant market position to crush independent competition.
 

Hailinel

Shamed a mod for a tag
Member
Oct 27, 2017
35,527
It's their fault for not wanting to give Ultimate better online multiplayer in the first place. Had they done so, then 3rd party mods with better online wouldn't be needed.
The Slippi modification is for Melee and has no effect on Ultimate. The TO could have cut the online Melee tourney at Nintendo's request and still run Ultimate.
 

Kadey

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
6,672
Southeastern PA
This is why hungrybucks moved onto Ultimate. Nintendo clearly does not want anything to do with melee anymore in any shape or form. Nor do they want anybody else to do anything with it.
 

Raccoon

Member
May 31, 2019
15,896
1. game is good

2. nintendo doesn't like 1. because they want everyone to play the latest smash but they also refuse to make the latest smash similar to the only one with lasting impact
they probably just can't

melee was a glorious accident, the product of the most insane crunch in the industry's history and wonky misbehaving code
 

2ndTuXx

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
671
User Banned (permanent): inflammatory trolling; numerous prior bans for inflammatory behavior including a severe ban for sexism
Last edited:

etrain911

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,807
They implied they feel victimized and said this is wrong. The only way to fight what is wrong is to take a stand even if it means you and your loved ones lose everything in the process. They will forever be remembered for taking on Nintendo.

You can't eat "forever being remembered for taking on Nintendo" and it's cold comfort as you suffer from extreme financial debt. This isn't a movie, they're not fucking Braveheart, they're some passionate fans running a tournament (which builds hype for Nintendo games and products) for free. This is some "why don't they simply pull themselves up by their bootstraps" rhetoric.
 

EllipsisBreak

One Winged Slayer
Member
Aug 6, 2019
2,152
We'll probably never know the official reasoning as to why but with what happened last summer it's not hard to imagine Nintendo being done with Smash an the esport community
If that's really what this is about, then Nintendo won't just stop Slippi. They'll also stop Ultimate tournaments in general. After all, many (I think most, by far) of the players implicated in that travesty were Ultimate players.

Given that Nintendo's statement focuses on Slippi specifically, I don't think those allegations are the motive here.