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The Batman (2022) |OT| Riddle Me This [TAG SPOILERS]

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SilverX

SilverX

Member
Jan 21, 2018
13,015
Nola said:
Sorry, hard disagree.

It was a well written character up until the film decided to make the Riddler go from someone that had clearly defined motives and reasoning behind their actions, with a hyper degree of focus(which also negates the notion the Riddler is just "irrationally crazy") to servicing Robert Pattinson's Batman character arc via writing the character in service of that plot instead of any established precedent the film had set forth.

The Riddlers motives all movie were calculating, clear, and concise toward seeking vengeance on the perceived perpetrators of his core trauma from his youth and seeking to target those in particular he saw as personally wronging him. Done with a serial killer like obsession and precision. A thought provoking contrast to The Batman's own misguided seeking of vengeance while also challenging the audience by subverting many of the Batman tropes and taking a slightly harder look at capitalism without the Nolan-style apologetics.

Then, instead of going further and exploring those ideas or the character to its natural conclusion, the film pulls back, pivots, completely abandons the Riddler's established character motives and turns the Riddler into a cheap prop that sets aside everything the movie established about him and just turns him into a super villain hell bent on destroying Gotham. Persumably because the writers wanted some sort of catalyst event to break The Batman's vicious cycle of vengeance and to see the light so to speak. But the problem with the third act is that it achieves that by creating a scenario that 1.) Doesn't really feel appropriate in this comparatively grounded movie we've established for nearly three hours, and 2.) does so by just abandoning what the movie had established about the chief villain to quickly get us there and create cheap shock value.

The most immediate comparison that comes to mind is when GoT just sort of heelturned Dany into a murderer of innocents without actually establishing that character leap, but clearly done to service getting the story to where the writers wanted it to be.
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You are overthinking it, The Riddler made a game out of his delusions that ultimately ended with his plan of flooding Gotham. One could argue that was always his real goal or just the ultimate fail-safe in case everything to did not fall into place (even he did not see he wouldn´t be able to get Bruce Wayne by the time he turned himself in). Above all, he did not give a shit about anyone in the corrupt city of Gotham, all he cared about were his followers and Batman who he believed to see his psychotic ¨truths¨. Like he said, it was a parting gift for his followers to have their ¨time to shine¨ when he was safe and away from the destruction of Gotham.

But his intentions were to create fear and panic in the city, just as Batman did for the criminals. Except Riddler saw most of the citizens as corrupted by how things are in Gotham. It made complete sense that something o catastrophic was woven into his clues right from the carpet tool that is focused on in one of the earliest shots in the film. The final act is a stark reminded this is still a blockbuster superhero film as well, Batman is too big to end on a note that doesn´t have him against impossible odds.
 
Lifejumper

Lifejumper

Member
Oct 25, 2017
25,319
Nola said:
Then, instead of going further and exploring those ideas or the character to its natural conclusion, the film pulls back, pivots, completely abandons the Riddler's established character motives and turns the Riddler into a cheap prop that sets aside everything the movie established about him and just turns him into a super villain hell bent on destroying Gotham. Persumably because the writers wanted some sort of catalyst event to break The Batman's vicious cycle of vengeance and to see the light so to speak. But the problem with the third act is that it achieves that by creating a scenario that 1.) Doesn't really feel appropriate in this comparatively grounded movie we've established for nearly three hours, and 2.) does so by just abandoning what the movie had established about the chief villain to quickly get us there and create cheap shock value.
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Riddler's intent was to wash Gothan clean with a biblical flood and restart it without the corrupt infrastructure that had been festering the city for decades. His own form of 'renewal' after the false promises of politicians.

Batman emerging from the water was also some sort of baptism according to Reeves.

All from the directors commentary.

edit: also found it hilarious that Reeves called the Batman/Riddler dynamic a "love story".
 
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Solo

Solo

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
15,750
When you think about it, The Batman is really a film about religion! Christianity is so hot right now.
 

Nola

Member
Oct 29, 2017
8,048
Lifejumper said:
Riddler's intent was to wash Gothan clean with a biblical flood and restart it without the corrupt infrastructure that had been festering the city for decades. His own form of 'renewal' after the false promises of politicians.

Batman emerging from the water was also some sort of baptism according to Reeves.

All from the directors commentary.

edit: also found it hilarious that Reeves called the Batman/Riddler dynamic a "love story".
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lol I mean he can say whatever he wants, just like Benioff and Weiss claimed Dany's sudden turn to madness and destruction of innocents had internal logic, but it really didn't. And because that was poorly established in the framework of the character itself, and the film. On top of just how over the top it was compared to the rest of the film, and how it just sort of didn't flow well structurally, it simply doesn't work for me.

I still enjoyed the film overall, and it's probably my favorite Batman film, but the third act is not a strength I would say.

SilverX said:
You are overthinking it, The Riddler made a game out of his delusions that ultimately ended with his plan of flooding Gotham. One could argue that was always his real goal or just the ultimate fail-safe in case everything to did not fall into place (even he did not see he wouldn´t be able to get Bruce Wayne by the time he turned himself in). Above all, he did not give a shit about anyone in the corrupt city of Gotham, all he cared about were his followers and Batman who he believed to see his psychotic ¨truths¨. Like he said, it was a parting gift for his followers to have their ¨time to shine¨ when he was safe and away from the destruction of Gotham.

But his intentions were to create fear and panic in the city, just as Batman did for the criminals. Except Riddler saw most of the citizens as corrupted by how things are in Gotham. It made complete sense that something o catastrophic was woven into his clues right from the carpet tool that is focused on in one of the earliest shots in the film. The final act is a stark reminded this is still a blockbuster superhero film as well, Batman is too big to end on a note that doesn´t have him against impossible odds.
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Much of this is post hoc stuff not actually established in the movie and much of his actions contradict what was established for most of the film about the character. Just adding a scene of dialogue and visual clues about the "ultimate mystery" isn't an establishing basis either

The final act is a stark reminded this is still a blockbuster superhero film as well, Batman is too big to end on a note that doesn´t have him against impossible odds.
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That's what it honestly probably came down to, and I agree. Reeves and the studio wanted their classic "epic" moment so they just forced one. And they did it at the betrayal of the character and tone they spent the rest of the film establishing. And the result is that it feels like two different films almost, with two different versions of the Riddler, and none of it really flows or lands with much impact cause it's just sort of inserted and not earned like the tension that was established building to the prison scene.
 
SilverX

SilverX

Member
Jan 21, 2018
13,015
Nola said:
Much of this is post hoc stuff not actually established in the movie and much of his actions contradict what was established for most of the film about the character. Just adding a scene of dialogue and visual clues about the "ultimate mystery" isn't an establishing basis either



That's what it honestly probably came down to, and I agree. Reeves and the studio wanted their classic "epic" moment so they just forced one. And they did it at the betrayal of the character and tone they spent the rest of the film establishing. And the result is that it feels like two different films almost, with two different versions of the Riddler, and none of it really flows or lands with much impact cause it's just sort of inserted and not earned like the tension that was established building to the prison scene.
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But they establish he loathes Gotham and its citizens, as the city functions with Falcone running everything and influencing all. The entire point isn´t just ¨vengeance¨, he wants to be remembered in infamy. And what better way than destroying the city he hates? Also, why would he just turn himself in after Falcone was shot when no one could catch him? Logically, there was going to be more and it was going to be something far worse than just specific .

And the strongest reason for raising the stakes so high is that they wanted to establish that this Riddler is not a vigilante like Batman. Killing Falcone being his endgame makes his cause appear way too ¨just¨ given that Falcone was responsible for the mass corruption. He is a supervillain as Batman is a superhero, hence the over the top final act.

I understand that people can see it feeling tonally different and struggling to shift gears when watching the film, but it never tries to hide what it ultimately is. Batman takes gunfire and literal bombs head on, he has a supercharged car that can drive through intense flames, and vanishes out of sight when people look away for a moment lol. But I think it really succeeds in existing as a gritty detective story and a superhero film simultaneously.
 

Nola

Member
Oct 29, 2017
8,048
SilverX said:
But they establish he loathes Gotham and its citizens, as the city functions with Falcone running everything and influencing all. The entire point isn´t just ¨vengeance¨, he wants to be remembered in infamy. And what better way than destroying the city he hates? Also, why would he just turn himself in after Falcone was shot when no one could catch him? Logically, there was going to be more and it was going to be something far worse than just specific .

And the strongest reason for raising the stakes so high is that they wanted to establish that this Riddler is not a vigilante like Batman. Killing Falcone being his endgame makes his cause appear way too ¨just¨ given that Falcone was responsible for the mass corruption. He is a supervillain as Batman is a superhero, hence the over the top final act.

I understand that people can see it feeling tonally different and struggling to shift gears when watching the film, but it never tries to hide what it ultimately is. Batman takes gunfire and literal bombs head on, he has a supercharged car that can drive through intense flames, and vanishes out of sight when people look away for a moment lol. But I think it really succeeds in existing as a gritty detective story and a superhero film simultaneously.
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They establish a personal connection and specific people he views as corrupting influences he wants to punish and expose as a means to cleanse the city, but they never clearly establish any burn it all mad man Joker stuff, which also undermines the entire point and motive established in the early part of the film for the character.

I also really don't care enough to continue relitigating it.

It's just not a well established or well executed third act IMO. And from a pacing standpoint doesn't work. Which has been an issue in a lot of superhero films and pretty much every Batman, so it is what it is. The need for grandiose spectacle and to tie up the protagonists arc tends to always get a bit forced and step over certain previously established characterizations. It is what it is. I'm not really going to Batman to see a filmmaking masterpiece. Like The Dark Knight, which also got a lot of worship and praise when it came out, it's a solid film, that amongst its peers is a step above, with some execution, technical, and narrative weak spots. But I think it's overall a stronger film than The Dark Knight
 
SilverX

SilverX

Member
Jan 21, 2018
13,015
Nola said:
They establish a personal connection and specific people he views as corrupting influences he wants to punish and expose as a means to cleanse the city, but they never clearly establish any burn it all mad man Joker stuff, which also undermines the entire point and motive established in the early part of the film for the character.

I also really don't care enough to continue relitigating it.

It's just not a well established or well executed third act IMO. And from a pacing standpoint doesn't work. Which has been an issue in a lot of superhero films and pretty much every Batman, so it is what it is. The need for grandiose spectacle and to tie up the protagonists arc tends to always get a bit forced and step over certain previously established characterizations. It is what it is. I'm not really going to Batman to see a filmmaking masterpiece. Like The Dark Knight, which also got a lot of worship and praise when it came out, it's a solid film, that amongst its peers is a step above, with some execution, technical, and narrative weak spots. But I think it's overall a stronger film than The Dark Knight
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But ¨cleanse the city¨ means that he had good intentions when he never did. He was delusional and made a game of his targets, releasing vids of victims in a similar fashion to TDK´s Joker. He was really just terrorizing the city. There was also a sick satisfaction he got from torturing his victims and watching the panic he created in others. The thing with psychopaths is that they will always have a bizarre reasoning for what they do that will be twisted on the fly to support their cause, so in a sense this Riddler is no different than Joker. I mean, people actually think him learning Batman and Bruce were the same person would break his mind, but Riddler would have warped that fact into another reason he had to do what he was doing. This is why no one should try to rationalize him or look at what actions match his behavior, especially since he would slip into his emotionally unstable, stunted other persona even with his mask on lol.

Remember, Riddler calls Batman his ¨friend¨ and convinces himself they are working together. Batman has to spell it out to him that nothing he is doing is as it seems in his mind and that they are on opposite sides (both figuratively and literally, with Riddler being incarcerate lol). Then later in the film, this universe´s Joker refers to himself as a ¨friend¨ which has the Riddler in glee. I mean, it is pretty clear that Riddler´s actions attracted the Joker (the same way it did all his followers) and that they parallel each other far greater than Batman and the Riddler do.

So as intricate and mysterious they make the Riddler, he is just another madman at the heart of it as he puts some greater cause at the front of his need to cause destruction and commit murders. I get what you feel about the third act though
 
Retromess

Retromess

Teyvat Traveler
Member
Nov 9, 2017
2,039
I watched it last night, it was neat!

A few questionable or downright silly scenes but I liked this take on Batman and the characters, for the most part.
The whole part of Riddler's bomb knocking him unconscious, and him ending up in Gotham PD, where not a single person unmasked him during that time... THEN he assaults Gordon and escapes without any real consequence was silly. I know near the end, with Falcone, Gordon mentioned those cops were on his side, or whatever, but what about the rest of the police?
I also really liked how it ended and how it sets up a sequel. It'll be interesting to see when the sequel takes place, if it's like, immediately after, a few weeks/months/years after, etc.
 
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SilverX

SilverX

Member
Jan 21, 2018
13,015
Thinking of future The Batman films, I REALLY hope we get Solomon Grundy as a villain. Reeves can totally pull it off
 

fr0st

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,492
Just watched it.

I thought I was watching Se7en with all the rain and riddle solving throughout the movie
 

Deleted member 10691

Banned
Dec 19, 2021
574
Finally watched this last night. Glad so many here enjoyed it but I found it to be completely joyless and about 45 minutes too long. There didn't feel like anything special about the plot or technical aspects of the film (the lighting team really punched above their weight on some of those scenes). The part where batman hits the bridge was ridiculous and didn't seem to have any long-term impact to the plot.
 
Hollywood Duo

Hollywood Duo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
41,964
Is it me or did some of the architecture feel a bit too British for Gotham. The overall aesthetic was good but some scenes felt a little off to me.
 
Jibbajabbawockky

Jibbajabbawockky

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,296
Retromess said:
I watched it last night, it was neat!

A few questionable or downright silly scenes but I liked this take on Batman and the characters, for the most part.
The whole part of Riddler's bomb knocking him unconscious, and him ending up in Gotham PD, where not a single person unmasked him during that time... THEN he assaults Gordon and escapes without any real consequence was silly. I know near the end, with Falcone, Gordon mentioned those cops were on his side, or whatever, but what about the rest of the police?
I also really liked how it ended and how it sets up a sequel. It'll be interesting to see when the sequel takes place, if it's like, immediately after, a few weeks/months/years after, etc.
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Regarding this Batman's mask, I do wish they had some sort of thing like The Dark Knight how it had a built in mechanism to stop people from just yanking off Batman's mask. Joker tries it in TDK and gets shocked. Something similar would have made sense here.

That's one thing I've enjoyed in the various Batman movies like Nolan's movies or even Snyder's- the little practical touches on Batman's suit. Like TDK's suit having some zapping mechanism to stop people from taking off Batman's cowl or the voice modulator in Snyder's movies (gets around Bale's overly gruff voice) or even Pattinson's taser gauntlets.
 
Solo

Solo

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
15,750
Just over 2 weeks until the glorious 4K physical release. Gonna be a reference quality disc.
 
Blitz

Blitz

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Oct 29, 2017
819
first 2 hours were good. last 1 hour was kinda stupid.

The Riddler just surrendering in the coffee shop seems stupid. I expected the villian to put up a good fight.
 
Poimandres

Poimandres

Member
Oct 26, 2017
6,870
I watched this the other night... ehhh... it was okay. I think I'm just plain done with super hero films. I found the Apes films infinitely more interesting. This just felt constrained by the source material. Like of course he has to grappel run down a building because it's bad ass. Of course there's an absurd chase scene with casualties up the wazoo to give Penguin a bit of a shake down?

The atmosphere was good, and it was pretty well done all over... but I'm just tired of this stuff. Don't think I'll check out the sequel.

I thought I might just be getting old and jaded, but then I watched Everything Everywhere All At Once today and that blew my socks off.
 
jelly

jelly

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
33,841
Watched this last night.

Thought it was pretty good, atmosphere, story, action etc. All actors were well cast, liked the slow pace, not lingering on same old, brass balls Batman among people.

I thought the Riddler was weirdly laughable at times, I couldn't take him seriously, great actor but he didn't do too well here.

Ending
Doesn't quite escape the super hero whatever ending, thought the Riddler followers and how they managed that spot was a bit far fetched. Guessing that's Joker in the cell.
 

rude

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,812
Smokey_Run

Smokey_Run

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
4,631
Irritated Best Buy never let me choose in-store pick up for the Steelbook. I kept checking, but never got an option. Now I'm locked in since it's preparing to ship.
 
Renpatsu

Renpatsu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
328
Blitz said:
first 2 hours were good. last 1 hour was kinda stupid.

The Riddler just surrendering in the coffee shop seems stupid. I expected the villian to put up a good fight.
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I dislike the movie, but this makes much more sense when you realise Riddler sees Batman as a kindred spirit and giving himself up there is him finally getting to meet him in person (hence the feelings of betrayal when Batman isn't as like-minded as he had envisioned).
 
Kaswa101

Kaswa101

Member
Oct 28, 2017
17,748
Renpatsu said:
I dislike the movie, but this makes much more sense when you realise Riddler sees Batman as a kindred spirit and giving himself up there is him finally getting to meet him in person (hence the feelings of betrayal when Batman isn't as like-minded as he had envisioned).
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Also Arkham would be one of the only places safe from the flooding, and Riddler had already teased Batman about meeting him there ("in hell").
 
TheDarkKnight

TheDarkKnight

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,530
I didn't know my Steelbook 4K edition already shipped from bestbuy. so I was surprised to see it arrive today at my doorstep. Gonna watch it tonight!
 

Deleted member 3208

Oct 25, 2017
11,934
Watched it the other day. I enjoyed it, although it was quite long. Sometimes it felt the movie overstayed its welcome.

The casting was good. Pattinson is a good Batman, same with Jeffrey Wrights as Gordon. Farrell did a superb job as the Penguin; in fact, many times he made me laugh.

Found interesting that the Riddler was basically a 4chan incel.
 
Solo

Solo

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
15,750
It's finally 4K physical disc day! Going to pick up a copy at lunch. Although I crushed this 5 times in theaters I've resisted watching it on streaming so I'm more than ready to jump back in.
 
Solo

Solo

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
15,750
Holy shit my local Best Buy only had ONE 4K (non-steelbook, but I don't care about that) copy, and I was there when it opened. Tons of Bluray and DVD (lol) copies, but only ONE fucking 4K version, which thankfully I snapped up.
 
AliceAmber

AliceAmber

Drive-in Mutant
Administrator
May 2, 2018
6,701
I can't wait to watch this again on Bluray! ahhhhh. I've been on a Batman kick since the movie came out
 
Solo

Solo

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
15,750
Gonna wait for a nice dark night (ho ho see what I did there?) to crank this up and soak in the glorious HDR and Atmos.
 
Jedi2016

Jedi2016

Member
Oct 27, 2017
15,687
Solo said:
Gonna wait for a nice dark night (ho ho see what I did there?) to crank this up and soak in the glorious HDR and Atmos.
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Yeah, that's the problem.. it doesn't get dark until like 8:30 or so, and it's a three-hour movie. I might end up waiting until autumn.. lol. But I do have my 4K copy coming today, of course.
 
HeyNay

HeyNay

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,495
Somewhere
RobotsAnger said:
Wow. I thought this movie was shot practically. No idea it was done in the Volume. That iconic scene from car chase being a part of the volume is a real shocker.
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If I recall, I believe it was shot partially on location. I remember they were filming for a while in London before the pandemic. I have no idea if they were planning to use the Volume at that time, but I do remember hearing how the pandemic changed their plans.
 
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