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Jodez99

Member
Jan 1, 2018
3,595
It's a common theme across media to have heroes being the underdogs and being outnumbered and underpowered when compared to the bad guys. The villains/antagonists forces are always larger in number and more powerful, and include all manner of things that the heroes don't have like superior technology or weapons or powerful monsters/creatures. In Harry Potter, Voldemort doesn't just have the support of the death eaters, he also has giants, werewolves, dementors and other 'evil' creatures fighting for him. In Star Wars, the empire has significantly more troops than the rebels, they have AT-AT's and AT-ST's, Star destroyers and not one, but two Death Stars. You get the idea.

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In the Lord of the Rings though things are a bit different. Yes, Sauron's forces include trolls, wargs, giant mammoths, Nazgul fellbeasts, the ringwraiths and the Witch King. Plus other threats like the Balrog are also extremely powerful and dangerous. However, the good guys arguably have even more overpowered allies than the bad guys. For starters, the Ents and their moving trees are complete powerhouses that take over Isengard with almost no effort. Sure, Saruman's army was out at Helm's Deep but there weren't that many Ents attacking the tower and they completely wrecked the place. Then there's the eagles who seemingly have no real problems when fighting against the fellbeast in the skies over Mordor. However, the biggest and most overpowered force that the heroes have on their side is the army of the dead. Sauron's superior numbers, giant trolls and mammoths meant jack against an army of ghosts who could attack and kill but could not be attacked in return. Nowhere in Star Wars or Harry Potter do the good guys get such an overpowered resource to help them out. An unstoppable, unkillable army is more in line with what bad guys would have rather than good guys but Tolkien gave them to Aragorn as a secret weapon.

lord-of-the-rings-the-return-of-the-king-2003-army-of-the-dead-viggo-mortensen-review.jpg


Are there other examples of the good guys having better 'stuff' than the bad guys?
 

Deleted member 59109

User requested account closure
Banned
Aug 8, 2019
7,877
The clone wars kind of come to mind, during that phase the republic and separatists are pretty evenly matched with the republic even having some advantages.
 

Hella

Member
Oct 27, 2017
23,398
Ehhh, Sauron has the greatest piece of technology in the Middle-Earth: he has the One Ring.

LotR is still fundamentally an underdogs vs. an oppressor battle, even if the Races of Men have better-quality equipment. The intervention of the Ents and the ghost people were extraordinary circumstances that nearly didn't happen. All the while, Sauron has an immense advantage in manpower, giving him more troops and equipment than anyone else could hope to spare, as he slowly chokes off the fractious peoples of Middle-Earth one by one--up until the end.
 

zoggy

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
1,203
Avengers endgame after all the portals looked way stronger than thanos army
 

Aurica

音楽オタク - Comics Council 2020
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
23,482
A mountain in the US
Zeon suits in Mobile Suit Gundam are often much cooler/more powerful, though the Feds do have some great stuff. And good guys in all the AU Gundam series get upgrades to become ridiculously overpowered often.
 

AlexFlame116

Prophet of Truth - One Winged Slayer
Member
Nov 17, 2017
23,177
Utah
Yeah why can't the good guys in Star Wars get something besides the usual single bladed saber?

The baddies get a cross saber, dualbladed saber, and a nice curved hilt for another saber.
 

Era Uma Vez

Member
Feb 5, 2020
3,205
Yeah, but all the evil wizard wands are cooler than the good guy wands.
Bro, this is the wand of the top baddie Bellatrix:
latest

It literally looks like she found a twig in the middle of the forest and went with it.

More of a plot twist taking effect no?
Kinda, but at the same time, he owned the 3 Deathly Hallows at one point, making him "Master of Death", also he had a protective spell from his mother that wouldnt allow Voldemort to kill him.
Altough, Voldemort did have 7 lifes, so yeah, he had cool stuff too.
 

mbpm

Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,553
I feel like most power fantasy fiction does this?

Like, when you play XCOM, by the end Earth has better weapons than the enemy.
 

Veelk

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,705
In Tolkien's Mythos, the forces of good are inherently superior to the forces of evil. It's just that they both degrade as times goes on.
 

Grunty

Member
Oct 28, 2017
7,342
Gruntilda’s Lair
Ehhh, Sauron has the greatest piece of technology in the Middle-Earth: he has the One Ring.

LotR is still fundamentally an underdogs vs. an oppressor battle, even if the Races of Men have better-quality equipment. The intervention of the Ents and the ghost people were extraordinary circumstances that nearly didn't happen. All the while, Sauron has an immense advantage in manpower, giving him more troops and equipment than anyone else could hope to spare, as he slowly chokes off the fractious peoples of Middle-Earth one by one--up until the end.

But in The Lord of the Rings he doesn't have the One Ring. Frodo may not be able to completely use it to his advantage, but Sauron himself is crippled without it.
 

Rodney McKay

Member
Oct 26, 2017
12,189
Bro, this is the wand of the top baddie Bellatrix:
latest

It literally looks like she found a twig in the middle of the forest and went with it.


Kinda, but at the same time, he owned the 3 Deathly Hallows at one point, making him "Master of Death", also he had a protective spell from his mother that wouldnt allow Voldemort to even touch him.
Altough, Voldemort did have 7 lifes, so yeah, he had cool stuff too.
Eh, hers isn't great, but Voldemort's OG carved bone wand, Lucious Malfoy's sweet snake head cane wand, random death eater wands with snakes/skulls/thorns/etc.

Most of the good guy wands are even worse than Bellatrix's, at least hers has a curved handle.

Admittedly, I don't really think many of the HP wands are all that good, but the few I do like are all bad-guy wands.
 

Tuorom

Member
Oct 30, 2017
10,907
It's a common theme across media to have heroes being the underdogs and being outnumbered and underpowered when compared to the bad guys. The villains/antagonists forces are always larger in number and more powerful, and include all manner of things that the heroes don't have like superior technology or weapons or powerful monsters/creatures. In Harry Potter, Voldemort doesn't just have the support of the death eaters, he also has giants, werewolves, dementors and other 'evil' creatures fighting for him. In Star Wars, the empire has significantly more troops than the rebels, they have AT-AT's and AT-ST's, Star destroyers and not one, but two Death Stars. You get the idea.

maxresdefault.jpg


In the Lord of the Rings though things are a bit different. Yes, Sauron's forces include trolls, wargs, giant mammoths, Nazgul fellbeasts, the ringwraiths and the Witch King. Plus other threats like the Balrog are also extremely powerful and dangerous. However, the good guys arguably have even more overpowered allies than the bad guys. For starters, the Ents and their moving trees are complete powerhouses that take over Isengard with almost no effort. Sure, Saruman's army was out at Helm's Deep but there weren't that many Ents attacking the tower and they completely wrecked the place. Then there's the eagles who seemingly have no real problems when fighting against the fellbeast in the skies over Mordor. However, the biggest and most overpowered force that the heroes have on their side is the army of the dead. Sauron's superior numbers, giant trolls and mammoths meant jack against an army of ghosts who could attack and kill but could not be attacked in return. Nowhere in Star Wars or Harry Potter do the good guys get such an overpowered resource to help them out. An unstoppable, unkillable army is more in line with what bad guys would have rather than good guys but Tolkien gave them to Aragorn as a secret weapon.

lord-of-the-rings-the-return-of-the-king-2003-army-of-the-dead-viggo-mortensen-review.jpg


Are there other examples of the good guys having better 'stuff' than the bad guys?

Eagles and Ents are technically neutral iirc. Like the eagles only help Gandalf because they like him. The Ents only engage because Saruman cut down a bunch of them.

The ghost army is a movie invention iirc (them attacking).
 

Scullibundo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,679
Erm, in LotR the good guys don't really 'have' those things, because all the legions of good are fractured from each other. It's only through incredible hardship and work that those forces come together to make something of a worthy force.

I mean, Rohan almost told Gondor to go fuck themselves.
 
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Jodez99

Jodez99

Member
Jan 1, 2018
3,595
The clone wars kind of come to mind, during that phase the republic and separatists are pretty evenly matched with the republic even having some advantages.
This is a good one yep, especially with the Jedi acting as generals. The Droid army couldn't match that.
Ehhh, Sauron has the greatest piece of technology in the Middle-Earth: he has the One Ring.

LotR is still fundamentally an underdogs vs. an oppressor battle, even if the Races of Men have better-quality equipment. The intervention of the Ents and the ghost people were extraordinary circumstances that nearly didn't happen. All the while, Sauron has an immense advantage in manpower, giving him more troops and equipment than anyone else could hope to spare, as he slowly chokes off the fractious peoples of Middle-Earth one by one--up until the end.
He doesn't actually have the one ring throughout the trilogy though. But yes it definitely was still an underdog story. Even the final battle at the end was only to give Frodo time as they had no hopes of winning outright. But if they still had the army of the dead on their side they would have strolled into mount doom with ease.
Avengers endgame after all the portals looked way stronger than thanos army
This is true, but I wouldn't really hype up Thanos' army that much. The Chitauri lost in NY to a group of 6 people, 2 of whom were just regular humans fighting with guns and arrows. And then in Wakanda, the outriders and black order were all killed against the army of a single nation (that were already under strength because they lost some men from the border tribe) and a couple Avengers and Thanos himself had to show up to get the job done. Only Thanos himself was a threat, his army not so much
 
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Jodez99

Jodez99

Member
Jan 1, 2018
3,595
Eagles and Ents are technically neutral iirc. Like the eagles only help Gandalf because they like him. The Ents only engage because Saruman cut down a bunch of them.

The ghost army is a movie invention iirc (them attacking).
Erm, in LotR the good guys don't really 'have' those things, because all the legions of good are fractured from each other. It's only through incredible hardship and work that those forces come together to make something of a worthy force.

I mean, Rohan almost told Gondor to go fuck themselves.

In Star Wars, the rebels destroy the Death Star by exploiting a weakness in it's design not by getting their own bigger and more powerful Death Star. In LotR they literally get big powerful Ents that are stronger than trolls, and eagles that can beat fell beasts, and a large undefeatable army that can beat Sauron's large undefeatable army to help them out. The eagles and ents are neutral in the grand scheme for sure but they definitely came through when needed.
 

WillyFive

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
6,976
Yes, Harry Potter owns the Elder Wand and Voldemort doesn't.

That was only at the very end, and only happened because of many moving pieces and plot twists. Up to that very final battle, until he realized the truth, Harry was outmatched.


The clone wars kind of come to mind, during that phase the republic and separatists are pretty evenly matched with the republic even having some advantages.

That still works though since they are both the bad guys. In reality, Palpatine owns both armies, and the heroes, the Jedi, are surrounded by their very future murderers.

Avengers endgame after all the portals looked way stronger than thanos army

Yeah, but that was the end result of the heroes completing their goal. The heroes' mission was to bring everyone back to life, and the resolution was that they got everyone back. Up till that point, it was only Captain America against the entire army,
 

Scullibundo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,679
In Star Wars, the rebels destroy the Death Star by exploiting a weakness in it's design not by getting their own bigger and more powerful Death Star. In LotR they literally get big powerful Ents that are stronger than trolls, and eagles that can beat fell beasts, and a large undefeatable army that can beat Sauron's large undefeatable army to help them out. The eagles and ents are neutral in the grand scheme for sure but they definitely came through when needed.
The good guys were about to get their shit rocked in LotR until Frodo dropped the ring into Mt. Doom. Call that the exhaust port moment, if you like.