Uh no.
This isn't a "solution". It is telling us not to fight for change and be happy with nothing. Nintendo is a very big international company and can improve. They consider themselves for "everyone" and they need to deliver.
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89 Characters & Not a Single Black Character: The Anti-Blackness of Super Smash Bros. Ultimate
- Thread starter Neoxon
- Start date
This isn't a "solution". It is telling us not to fight for change and be happy with nothing. Nintendo is a very big international company and can improve. They consider themselves for "everyone" and they need to deliver.
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It's still a clear whataboutism that dismisses the topics of this thread. You're free to make a thread on Sony's failings regarding PSASBR. But to derail this thread dismissing it as useless isn't the way. As Richter said, you're basically telling us to be happy with nothing. And that ain't it, chief.
I'm sorry you see it that way. But that's not what I intend. It's simply a different strategy to bring change.
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To turn a blind eye to Smash's anti-Blackness in the hopes of an unlikely PSASBR sequel (to my knowledge, the studio that worked on the game is now shut down) forcing Nintendo's hand? Again, that ain't it.
I hope we see more diversity in Smash Bros., not least because the game is about celebrating a diverse cast of characters. <3
It is funny that the "solution" to this is wishing that Sony would revive a fighter that bombed, for some weird reason out of the blue, just so Nintendo (a separate competitor company) just to fix Smash's problems and Nintendo as a whole.
I mean, in terms of wishful thinking, hoping someone could come up with a game to compete with Smash Ultimate is pretty up there.
We have Brawlhalla and that's about it?
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Generally speaking, every game that attempts to compete with Smash doesn't get close to the highs of Smash. Smash is just in a league of its own, all the more reason why we need to make our voices heard rather than be silent & hope that change will eventually come.
This post serious? What does Sony or MS have to do with this thread about the lack of black characters in Smash?
Best response post ever. Man what even was that?
inarguably
I'm going to mentally rewrite this post replacing white with pale/light skin because nearly half the cast are inarguably chinese coded.
We're getting Sumera as the 4th new region which is based on MENA so we'll likely get brown characters there. And the 6th region Natlan's preview character is named after a Yoruba spirit (Iansan) so we've got atleast 1 black character to look forward to.
Hopefully we get more black/brown characters before Sumera.
Surprised Code Name STEAM didn't get a Smash rep back then as a marketing tool (it most likely would've been Henry first but I could've seen them fitting John in there). It had a diverse cast so it's not like it's a total blind spot for Nintendo.
Surprised Code Name STEAM didn't get a Smash rep back then as a marketing tool (it most likely would've been Henry first but I could've seen them fitting John in there). It had a diverse cast so it's not like it's a total blind spot for Nintendo.
That game bombed hard, and Sakurai seems reluctant to just add new franchises to Smash that haven't proven themselves somewhat.
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Not to mention that the main character was voiced by a known shithead who helped get GamerGate going in the first place (Adam Baldwin). Though I guess you could argue that Smash is already no stranger to asshole VAs (see Ken's English VA). But still, they should be avoided whenever they're known to be pieces of shit.
Seems like Twintelle and Marina are the only acceptable recommendations, or at least the ones with the least pushback here. Dragalia Lost is a Nintendo IP and was very successful, maybe they could pull a Black character from there. https://www.resetera.com/threads/more-jrpgs-need-black-dark-skin-protagonists.221023/post-36116860
Last I heard, Draglia Lost hasn't released in Europe. (I don't know if that's still the case or not, but I would think they wouldn't release a character from a game that hasn't released in such a major territory if it were.)
Do you mean among Nintendo's stable or just in the industry in general?
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There are more to choose from than Twintelle & Marina, as noted in the OP (especially once you factor in third-party characters). They just so happen to be the most popular options with the least amount of red tape.
I wish Byleth's Claude color gave him Claude's skin color. I would actually use it if it did.
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That's actually a good question, & it took me a while to think about it. I definitely respect the efforts of the community with such alts (both in Smash & DBFZ). But I personally wouldn't change the skin tone of existing characters too much in the same way I don't like how Ramlethal has light-skinned alts in GG Strive. If anything, it further illustrates the need for Black characters on the roster.
Industry in general, but it gets a lot smaller when you round it out to "characters that actually can be in smash because they are notable video game characters"
Well, I imagine many (but not all) of the "best" candidates would come from the fighting game genre. Regardless of "prevalence" in his series, I'd love to see King from Tekken in Smash Ultimate.
I think you overestimate how notable the character has to be. This is a game where Terry Bogard and Joker got in through what appears to be notability alone--as opposed to Nintendo connections like Bayonetta. The character obviously does not need to be some industry defining icon, just from a fairly successful game series. At this point, I think the most notable Japanese video game series not yet in Smash can be represented by a POC pretty comfortably.
This has to be the most defensive post I've ever seen in recent memory? Hell I'm not even sure what this is.
Michael fucking Chain.
Fuck Samurai Goroh and his shitty sword (eugh, such a Sakurai choice). Make Michael Chain more prominent in the next F-Zero and put him into Smash! Dude has his own gang and has the best chapter music in F-Zero GX.
Fuck Samurai Goroh and his shitty sword (eugh, such a Sakurai choice). Make Michael Chain more prominent in the next F-Zero and put him into Smash! Dude has his own gang and has the best chapter music in F-Zero GX.
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In Bayonetta's case, she got in because she won the Smash Ballot.
Michael fucking Chain.
Fuck Samurai Goroh and his shitty sword (eugh, such a Sakurai choice). Make Michael Chain more prominent in the next F-Zero and put him into Smash! Dude has his own gang and has the best chapter music in F-Zero GX.
If we're talking F-Zero then give me Kate Allen (In her good costume, not that shit they put her in in GXl
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This makes me miss F-Zero even more. ;_;If we're talking F-Zero then give me Kate Allen (In her good costume, not that shit they put her in in GXl
Wonderfully constructed OP. I had no idea about the spirit representations. It's shocking.
I do feel that a long-term solution to this problem involves greater awareness of the non-racist factors that also contribute to the problem. Some of these might also be less provocative and easier for some people to discuss.
First, the Japanese gaming industry has traditionally been heavily Japanese-centric, while the Smash roster prioritises franchise longevity. Therefore, Nintendo's character choices favour time-honoured Japanese characters, which reduces the extent of racism involved in the non-selection of primary, humanoid black characters (but in no way invalidates any racist elements already discussed above).
Second, for the purpose of accuracy and integrity of argument, the full roster of "84 characters" should not be emphasised to add weight to the argument. Only non-ambiguous humanoid characters should be emphasised. That would reduce the total roster number and more accurately represent the argument.
Third, as a minor point, it appears some posters are incorrectly categorising Japanese characters as white characters, which is unintentionally dismissive of Japanese-centrism. This doesn't invalidate previously highlighted existing racism behind non-selection of primary, humanoid black characters, but it perhaps overestimates the extent of it.
I'm aware these are all minor points, but I already agree with most of the major points previously discussed, and these seem to increase argument accuracy. If I should reconsider even thinking about exploring non-racist factors behind this problem, then please let me know and I'll think about it further.
I do feel that a long-term solution to this problem involves greater awareness of the non-racist factors that also contribute to the problem. Some of these might also be less provocative and easier for some people to discuss.
First, the Japanese gaming industry has traditionally been heavily Japanese-centric, while the Smash roster prioritises franchise longevity. Therefore, Nintendo's character choices favour time-honoured Japanese characters, which reduces the extent of racism involved in the non-selection of primary, humanoid black characters (but in no way invalidates any racist elements already discussed above).
Second, for the purpose of accuracy and integrity of argument, the full roster of "84 characters" should not be emphasised to add weight to the argument. Only non-ambiguous humanoid characters should be emphasised. That would reduce the total roster number and more accurately represent the argument.
Third, as a minor point, it appears some posters are incorrectly categorising Japanese characters as white characters, which is unintentionally dismissive of Japanese-centrism. This doesn't invalidate previously highlighted existing racism behind non-selection of primary, humanoid black characters, but it perhaps overestimates the extent of it.
I'm aware these are all minor points, but I already agree with most of the major points previously discussed, and these seem to increase argument accuracy. If I should reconsider even thinking about exploring non-racist factors behind this problem, then please let me know and I'll think about it further.
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Neoxon addressed this in the section called "OPTIONS EXIST FOR POTENTIAL BLACK CHARACTERS ". That section gives suggestions for Black characters and reasons why they fit within the framework Smash already uses.
Neoxon also addressed this in the section called "BUT SMASH IS A ROSTER FILLED WITH ANIMALS, ROBOTS, ALIENS, & OTHER UNIQUE CREATURES. WHY COMPLAIN ABOUT THE LACK OF BLACK CHARACTERS?"
User Banned (1 Month): Concern Trolling Around Representation; Account in Junior Phase
I re-read the above sections and noticed something that wasn't addressed in the OP.
There is a lack of primary, humanoid darker-skinned characters in Smash. Why is this the case? The exaggerated paleness of Japanese characters is evidence for Japanese-centrism.
Academic papers support the connection of Japanese paleness as a Japanese cultural bias, so in the absence of darker-skinned Japanese characters, it cannot be said that paleness is unrelated to Japanese-centrism.
I support diversity in all situations, but I don't support imposing Western values on other cultures.
I really don't know what to do about this issue.
Does anyone know how to reconcile these two seemingly opposing concepts?
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Japanese centrism is just a cover for racism. There are many Japanese people with black skin, and they are underrepresented in Japanese media in the same way as black people are in western media. This is not a western value being pushed on Japan. This is an ethical issue being pushed on the unethical.
Japanese colorism doesn't preclude anti-blackness in Japanese game dev or game dev at large. Preference for lighter skin isn't "Japanese-centrism" as darker-skinned, full-blooded Japanese people are discriminated against in media as well.
Furthermore, if Japanese businesses want to thrive continue to thrive in a global market then they need to get hip to the world at large, not just their tiny island. Diversity isn't a "Western value," it's what someone should see when they take a quick look around at the real world.
Given there are some hints of actual racism on the game (the Spirit portion explained by the OP) I don't think we are "pushing Western values on other cultures". The people working on Smash need to be more inclusive, period. And they will only listen if consumers keep insisting on it. If in the process we offend an entire culture by asking them to be less racist, well, that's THEIR problem.
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Even then, that's not an excuse for anti-Blackness. Especially when there are legitimately racist things in Smash. At the end of the day, Nintendo is a global company who happens to operate out of Japan. It's time that they & Sakurai start acting like the rest of the world matters.
Who, aside from Elma, would be a major character from a game that's suitable for Smash? Urbosa is not black (technically she's the same race as Ganondorf). Even so, what about the other champions? You can't have Marina without Pearl, and Twintelle....I'm sorry. Min Min got chosen over you for some reason. If Bayonetta got a second rep, it would either be Jeanne or Rodin. I really don't see Punch Out getting another rep, though Doc Louis should appear in Little Mac's taunts.
Pokemon X/Y and Sun/Moon were the first Pokemon titles in which you change your skin color. Pokemon Trainer's 7th and 8th slots (which represent X/Y and Sun/Moon respectively), could have been white, according to the official art. They're black in Smash.
Prior to New Horizons, you couldn't even change your skin color in New Leaf. The only options were: getting a tan, or using a Mii face. This was resolved in the newest title, but was added in Smash firsthand. If we're getting a next Smash game, looking at the official art for the player characters in New Horizons, we'll be getting even more diversity.
Pokemon, Animal Crossing, Splatoon, ARMS, and even Ring Fit Adventure are examples of Nintendo titles that have done a great job with diversity. Is it Nintendo's fault? That I cannot answer.
Pokemon X/Y and Sun/Moon were the first Pokemon titles in which you change your skin color. Pokemon Trainer's 7th and 8th slots (which represent X/Y and Sun/Moon respectively), could have been white, according to the official art. They're black in Smash.
Prior to New Horizons, you couldn't even change your skin color in New Leaf. The only options were: getting a tan, or using a Mii face. This was resolved in the newest title, but was added in Smash firsthand. If we're getting a next Smash game, looking at the official art for the player characters in New Horizons, we'll be getting even more diversity.
Pokemon, Animal Crossing, Splatoon, ARMS, and even Ring Fit Adventure are examples of Nintendo titles that have done a great job with diversity. Is it Nintendo's fault? That I cannot answer.
Happy Home Designer was actually the first Animal Crossing game to fix the skin tone problem
but who wants to play Happy Home Designer
You can't break up Marina and her wife.
Pyra and Mythra were more shaking off the dead weight.
Honestly I wouldn't be entirely surprised at this point if for the next Smash game they just have Marina and Pearl appear as assist trophies, essentially taking over the role that the Squid Sisters currently have.
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Yes, Nintendo does bear a chunk of the responsibility, just as much as Sakurai does. Granted, the industry is largely to blame. But Nintendo could have specifically asked for a Black character, & the fact that they didn't is just as much of an issue as Sakurai not considering the options that exist. Nobody's hands are clean.
On the topic of the options that exist, a lot of the limitations that you & others bring up are based on self-imposed restrictions on Nintendo & Sakurai's end (as well as us in the fanbase). For Marina in particular, she'll likely have a big role in Splatoon 3's story if 2's handling of the Squid Sisters is any indication. Also, I never suggested Urbosa within the context of this thread talking about the need for a Black character, but rather Urbosa being a cool person of color who would be a great add on her own. I recognize that Urbosa is not Black.
Off topic but I am open minded to having Michael Jordan as a character in Smash Bros
This post serious? What does Sony or MS have to do with this thread about the lack of black characters in Smash?
This is my wish as well. I was afraid to bring it up because I thought it would be in poor taste (you can get away with it bc you're a dog)
I also really like the Sandman/Mr. Dream and Doc Louis ideas.
Honestly I wouldn't say no to Anthony from Other M. I played it for the first time a while ago and he was the only good character.
Sandman would be legit hard to design for. Mac is already feast or famine in the areas Sandman would be. I've been wracking my brain for a design that would feel like Sandman and not just be worse Mac. Other than making the Dreamland Express his side b (it's the three hit version, but you get the four hit version with invulnerability like in Banjo's side be once per stock) I've come up dry.
Maybe Smash's first fakeout character, following along with that theme. Make a bunch of his moves have similar looking variants or even full in feints.
Sandman and Mr. Dream are two entirely different characters, by the by.