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The AI and NPCs in Hitman 2 are ridiculously last-gen

BlackJace

BlackJace

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
5,452
Sande said:
There is a middle ground between 100% authenticity where you get caught within 5 seconds and NPCs literally not reacting to others getting their head blown off 2 feet away.

"Stealth AI has to be this way" just doesn't fit here.
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How many more people are we going to get coming into this thread spouting complete inaccuracies? Hell, inaccuracy is putting it lightly. Saying that the NPCs do not react to player actions in this game is completely false.

If an AI sees you:
  • Pick a lock
  • Climb a gutter/pole
  • Brandishing a weapon/illegal item
  • Choke someone
  • Punch someone
  • Poison food or drink
  • Tamper with something
  • Steal something
...you will get in trouble. This is all before an AI seeing you outright murder someone, which will cause them to ask WTF you're doing and sprint to the nearest guard.

It's obviously absurd to suggest the game has no more room for improvements on the AI end, but if you seriously think the AI doesn't react appropriately for a game this size, then I'm not sure what game you were playing/expecting.
 
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Emerson

Emerson

Member
Oct 25, 2017
521
USA
In most games the NPC behavior is a secondary game system which can be changed significantly between releases.

In Hitman the NPC behavior is the primary game system, and the way in which NPCs react is expected to be at least recognizable from game to game. It's not shooting for realism, it's a relatively consistent set of arbitrary rules which you use to manipulate the environment to complete your objectives.
 
Turin Turambar

Turin Turambar

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,780
I agree with some of your points, not with others. As some people have already said, some actions or events are gameplay elements that are good if they are consistent and predictable.

But you are right in that some npc behavior could improve. For example if you shoot at someone in the middle of a crowd, they will shout and run away. Good reaction. But somehow they don't behave the same when someone dies in a horrific way.
 
JarrodL

JarrodL

Member
Oct 27, 2017
247
TheIdiot said:
First off, whenever you assassinate your targets publicly... The NPCs don't react. In the Miami level, I murdered Sierra Knox by poisoning her chili shot with the octane booster. What did this do? Cause her to engulf in flames and scream until dying on the spot in a club. What did the NPCs previously watching her play the drinking game do? Immediately turn around and continue their conversation. No-one reacted except one NPC feeling her pulse. I was expecting an Oblivion Imperial soldier to walk up and gasp, saying, "Body's still warm. Killer's on the loose". The people in the club were still dancing. Here's a video showing it, at the 10:18 mark.
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This does look weird, and I don't think it works as intended - I've played over 100 hours of Hitman Legacy Pack/Hitman 2 recently, and I don't recall anything like this death happening. Normally, NPCs should always react to deaths within their line of sight, targets or not. "Accident" kills are treated a bit more mildly - while flat-out shooting a target in plain sight will send everyone running in panic, only a few people closest to the deceased might react to an accident. Perhaps something like that is happening here, but it still looks off to me.

TheIdiot said:
As for the AI, there are countless examples. NPCs investigate things that don't concern them, even waltzing into a private place because they heard a radio turn on. Even in a club with blaring music, if you throw a coin or small metallic object you have people react with a question mark over their head, doing a 180 without shifting their feet. Is it really strange to hear a screwdriver fall to the floor near a racetrack? And murdering people and "hiding" literally 6 feet away and hearing the bodyguard immediately say "Nothing to report here sir" does nothing but remind me of the Metal Gear Solid 1 days.
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Like others here have pointed out already, these games are essentially a puzzle to be solved and looked at from different angles/approaches. For this to work, the AI kind of needs to be more or less predictable. However, I do agree it could stand to be *a bit* less predictable at times. As it stands, suit only/knock-out heavy runs tend to get boring as you follow the same unchanging routine and abuse the same mechanics to clear room after room (toss a coin, wait for it, knock out, drag, repeat).
 
matimeo

matimeo

UI/UX Game Industry Veteran
Verified
Oct 26, 2017
979
I remember reading where they experimented with machine learning for their AI. The problem was the Azi got so smart so fast it killed the fun and made it pretty much impossible to play. They then realized the AI had to forget random things or their formula fell apart pretty fast.
 
Aftermath

Aftermath

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,756
It's a fun arcade game with action/puzzle/stealth elements which is a bit silly, it is not a true murder simulator good grief.
 
Mesoian

Mesoian

â–˛ Legend â–˛
Member
Oct 28, 2017
26,524
If the AI wasn't inherently manipulatable, the game wouldn't be fun.

I'd say the thing that most stealth games get wrong is being way too rigid when it comes to what it allows the player to get away with. Hitman has the perfect level of both, making you stay on your toes, but also giving you a little wiggle room if you screw up.

There's always master mode if you want the game to punish you for experimenting.
 
Turin Turambar

Turin Turambar

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,780
The thing is, I suspect they prefer for their AI to not behave realistically when they find a body or see someone die.

Do you know why? Because usually in every mission there are 2 or 3 targets, if they would behave realistically, the map would be evacuated of civilians (because who the hell would stay in a party, a model show or any event where a murder just happened?), making the remaining targets much more boring to do. Fun > realism.
 

Deleted member 16908

Oct 27, 2017
9,377
The AI is deliberately designed this way to make the game fun to play.
 
KalEl814

KalEl814

Member
Nov 3, 2017
98
out about Boston
The AI in the recent Hitman games is absolutely dialed into the "fun" side of things as opposed to the realistic. I think calling it "last gen" Is needlessly pejorative and implies this wasn't a deliberate design decision. Yes, the AI absolutely derps sometimes and the reactions to accident kills is occasionally silly. But I dunno, this is a game where when the game is functioning as intended, nobody gives a shit about you dumping rat poison into a wine glass because you happen to look like a waiter at the time, but god forbid that same waiter is seen in a kitchen holding a kitchen knife.
 
Hella

Hella

Member
Oct 27, 2017
23,406
Hitman isn't aiming to be an immersive thing to be experienced, so much as a challenge to be beaten. It is a puzzle game at heart, and IMO that's why the newest Hitman games (2016 and 2) are so good, because they embrace that. They're truly engaging once you understand how everything is connected.

In other words: it's not a bug, but a feature.

And as a bit of an aside, Hitman's take on social stealth is the best stealth gameplay I've ever seen. (Yes, even better than MGSV. Because the levels are actually designed around said stealth.)
Crazymoogle said:
Generally speaking, the same player who thinks they want more realism there is the same one who is going to complain about getting kicked by a horse or 1500 other random things in a bigger simulation. As designers the only way to compensate for extreme complexity is by rethinking how the player lives though it. For example, we could call the SWAT team and permanently wreck the level because you triggered a loud accident, but the reality is that's not fun: it's just going to trigger a reload instead.

So Hitman is actually a really good level of complexity in that it's predictable 1-on-1 but quickly too complex in groups. The trick is to fix the bugs (seems like there is 1 or 2 in the video above) and the occasional "obvious, but probably scripted before the audio" issue like dropping a coin in a loud venue. But generally speaking what holds up Hitman as a simulation is that it's simulating those core 200 or whatever NPCs. They don't despawn, they don't hide in exchange for cops, they don't have one script and then stay still.

To take that video to task, it *was* surprising. It required characters in specific positions and occluded by specific hit boxes. If I choke out a character that close, typically a gun drops, everyone looks around, the NPCs start panicking...and it's time to run. May as well take Kotaku split screen videos as common occurrences if you're going to make a game quality judgement call.
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Just want to add, this is a great post.

There's probably a good thread to be had about the white whale of "realism" in video games. I really don't think it's something players actually want, so much as expect as a side-effect of the photorealism arms race in AAA gaming. Though I feel I should note that I, too, am a player... just not one that wants this.
 
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MazeHaze

MazeHaze

Member
Nov 1, 2017
8,583
This hasn't been my experience at all. Yesterday in the cambodia level I electrocuted a guy by overflowing a sink that was near a power outlet. Every surrounding NPC came and investigated to see what was going on, and the hippie I had been stalking to try and get his outfit immediately ran to two guards and told them there had been a terrible accident and he needed help. The guards then went to investigate. I kept following the hippie cuz I needed his clothes and he ran to ANOTHER set of guards around the corner and explained the situation to them and they went to investigate as well. Then some guys came and zipped the dead guy up in a body bag and dragged him away.
 
Semfry

Semfry

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,956
Calling it "last-gen" would require there to be a current gen stealth game with "good" AI.
 
Mercenary09

Mercenary09

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,395
Someone else who doesn't understand that if games were made to be realistic they wouldn't be fun. It's why we get stuff like RDR2 that is a damn chore to play due to it's insistence on trying to be realistic.
 
Hella

Hella

Member
Oct 27, 2017
23,406
Mercenary09 said:
Someone else who doesn't understand that if games were made to be realistic they wouldn't be fun. It's why we get stuff like RDR2 that is a damn chore to play due to it's insistence on trying to be realistic.
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I'd say RDR2 commits an even greater crime than just chasing realism: it's inconsistent in how things work.

Hitman 2, meanwhile, is highly consistent, going back to the puzzle thing I mentioned above.
 
Agent 47

Agent 47

Banned
Jun 24, 2018
1,840
I think it's exactly what they intended to create, AI that's easy to manipulate cause you're a master assassin. Creating overly realistic AI would ruin the fun and purpose of the game. It's not in anyway trying to be realistic or believable.

Also, I find it sad that realism is a seen as a sign of quality. Hitman 1/2 are outstanding games regardless of the level of realism.
 
Popetita

Popetita

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 29, 2017
1,957
TX|PR
I'm saying this coming off of RDR2 but... Wow the AI and NPCs are horrible in this game.
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Would you rather have dozens of Witnesses? I love RDR2 and looking forward to Hitman 2, but I think it is not a fair expectation/comparison. RDR2 is not only a different game but with a budget that most likely eclipsed Hitman.
 
doof_warrior

doof_warrior

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,431
NJ
this is by design, hitman is a game first, an "immersive experience" second
and i dont even mean that to sound condescending. different games have different goals. i absolutely dont want "realism" in hitman. it's a massively complex puzzle game, and you NEED things to be relatively reliable in order for it to work.
 
Gelf

Gelf

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,311
Given the size of the maps and the amount of variable NPC actions the game has to track at one time without despawning them I'd argue the opposite, it may not have been possible last gen.
 
Akita One

Akita One

Member
Oct 30, 2017
4,628
TBH, this covers almost every low-action cover based 3rd person shooter. Only games like Vanquish or Gears of War that ignore the stealth requirements can avoid this because the AI just has to see you and shoot.
 
Linus815

Linus815

Member
Oct 29, 2017
19,789
Hitman is just quirky and embraces its own stupidity. Its designed delibaretely to be predictable for the sake of gameplay.
 
Joe Spangle

Joe Spangle

Member
Nov 1, 2017
1,845
I don't think i want a game thats about murdering people to be ultra realistic. I like the fact that its very much a video game and you can work out the AI paths and behaviour etc. The shear number of crazy ways you can off people and the general tone of the game is quite tongue in cheek and for me it works very well as a video game.
 
Agent 47

Agent 47

Banned
Jun 24, 2018
1,840
Linus815 said:
Hitman is just quirky and embraces its own stupidity. Its designed delibaretely to be predictable for the sake of gameplay.
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Exactly this, if you make the AI more realistic and in turn unpredictable, it ruins the gameplay and it wouldn't be very fun.

It's good to know exactly what will happen when you throw a coin.
 
Turin Turambar

Turin Turambar

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,780
Skyball Paint said:
You can set the guards in Dishonored 2 to be very perceptive/persistent with the custom difficulty settings

don't try to ghost levels if you want to enjoy yourself though
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That's not intelligence, that's just some values (cone of vision degree, vision distance, hearing distance, time in suspicious mode, etc) amped to the max.

It's like in a FPS, it's trivial to make the enemies have a great aim, that's not good AI.
 
Skyball Paint

Skyball Paint

Member
Nov 12, 2017
1,667
Turin Turambar said:
That's not intelligence, that's just some values (cone of vision degree, vision distance, hearing distance, time in suspicious mode, etc) amped to the max.

It's like in a FPS, it's trivial to make the enemies have a great aim, that's not good AI.
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I was talking about how intelligently the NPCs behave from the player's perspective, how it is achieved behind the scenes literally does not matter.
 
Crossing Eden

Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
53,380
Skyball Paint said:
I was talking about how realistically the NPCs behave from the player's perspective, how it is achieved behind the scenes literally does not matter.
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I mean when you set those values so high it doesn't make them behave more realistically, it just makes them behave much more aggressively, to the point of literal cheating on the part of the AI as they become essentially omnipotent.
 
Mesoian

Mesoian

â–˛ Legend â–˛
Member
Oct 28, 2017
26,524
Crossing Eden said:
I mean when you set those values so high it doesn't make them behave more realistically, it just makes them behave much more aggressively, to the point of literal cheating on the part of the AI as they become essentially omnipotent.
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Yurp. And much like fighting games where the game is literally cheating in order emulate an intelligent opponent when the difficulty is maxed out, it's almost never fun to play that way.
 
KORNdog

KORNdog

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
8,001
i think it's actually better than most games in the systemic gameplay sense, i'd love AI and freedom like this in a GTA game. it's just not very smart in the individual intelligence sense. very few games have this much stuff going on at the same time and this many options of approach. so i'm happy to give it a pass.

plus, it's ultimately a stealth game. they're not supposed to be too smart otherwise enemies stop being obstacles in a larger puzzle and instead turn into a frustrating barrier that prevents you enjoying it. i don't think i've ever played a stealth game where i'd say the enemy AI was "smart".
 
EvilBoris

EvilBoris

Prophet of Truth - HDTVtest
Verified
Oct 29, 2017
16,684
The game relies on the NPCs responding in a repeatable manor, it would be a rogue-like if they just changed everything every time.

The same thing happened with the non-scripted enemies in non-infinity ward COD games. You could rely on a specific enemy throwing a grenade in a certain spot if you had killed a specific other enemy and moved to a specific spot.
A cascading series of events that was repeatable if you carried out the same actions.

Then they gave the enemies 'AI' and it was literally just luck whether you'd die or not on the hardest difficulty setting.


It's the same ree
 
Kyra

Kyra

The Eggplant Queen
Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,254
New York City
I do wish there was more spontaneity in the way ppl patrol in this game. I feel like part of the fun is getting into unexpected trouble and improvising a way to get out of it. It mostly works here but i wish there was a tad more randomness. There is some very light variation as to where certain ppl stand sometimes but that's about it.


This is why elusive targets are the best.
 
Roy

Roy

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,471
TheIdiot said:
So, considering the 50% off deal one month after launch, I decided to go for it and try out Hitman 2 due to its positive reviews. Now, I know the game isn't necessarily known for it's realism but the game does try to aim for immersion and maybe I'm saying this coming off of RDR2 but... Wow the AI and NPCs are horrible in this game.

First off, whenever you assassinate your targets publicly... The NPCs don't react. In the Miami level, I murdered Sierra Knox by poisoning her chili shot with the octane booster. What did this do? Cause her to engulf in flames and scream until dying on the spot in a club. What did the NPCs previously watching her play the drinking game do? Immediately turn around and continue their conversation. No-one reacted except one NPC feeling her pulse. I was expecting an Oblivion Imperial soldier to walk up and gasp, saying, "Body's still warm. Killer's on the loose". The people in the club were still dancing. Here's a video showing it, at the 10:18 mark.




As for the AI, there are countless examples. NPCs investigate things that don't concern them, even waltzing into a private place because they heard a radio turn on. Even in a club with blaring music, if you throw a coin or small metallic object you have people react with a question mark over their head, doing a 180 without shifting their feet. Is it really strange to hear a screwdriver fall to the floor near a racetrack? And murdering people and "hiding" literally 6 feet away and hearing the bodyguard immediately say "Nothing to report here sir" does nothing but remind me of the Metal Gear Solid 1 days.

Now, Hitman 2 may not focus fully on immersion as opposed to other AAA games but it's undeniably trying to immerse you into a living, breathing world while you assassinate people in public places inspired by real life-locations. While some assassinations and characters are outlandish, a lot of it is grounded if not a bit exaggerated for theatrical effect. I think for the next game to be successful, they really need to keep up with the competition.

What does Era think?
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Lol you are right but it's funny and I think *unintentional* humour is a huge draw for the game.
 
Jeronimo

Jeronimo

Member
Nov 16, 2017
2,377
I haven't played the new missions yet, but manipulating the predictable clockwork reactions is how the game works. It's actually not a "living, breathing world".
 
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