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Tigress

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,155
Washington
Erf that's because you're misreading me. Xbox is certainly not getting a pass. But I cant blame a manufacturer for the policies on another platform. And it's not because something makes money in a wrong way somewhere that it needs to be done elsewhere.

Should Microsoft be blamed for introducing online paywall ? Definitely. They introduced that idea. And people are to be blamed for paying it and complaining about its effects.

Should Microsoft be blamed for introducing online paywall on PS4 ? I don't think so. Nothing is forcing Sony to do so. And people had the occasion to say no. In fact, Microsoft tried to introduce always online on consoles. Does it mean Sony should've tried to ? Absolutely not. And they made a marketing argument on not doing it.

It's easier to protest when something has yet to happen. And people choosed to subscribe to PS+ despite the online paywall. In fact, it made very little noise because of that video indeed.

Should have and will are two different things. You seem to forget they are both companies out to make money. If one company sees another company is essentially getting free money for doing something, you really expect they aren't going to try too? Sorry, but it's the reality of it. I will blame the company that comes up with it and proves it's a good way of making money (just like I really wish people had more blowback on EA for MTs cause they are the ones who really pushed it for AAA games and showed other companies they are being left behind. I would say Rockstar also showed this with GTA online being such a money maker).

Yeah, I wish Sony hadn't caved, but it really wasn't unexpected. I'm going to guess PS+ was a way to slowly introduce us to the idea (and get us used to the "free" games so we wouldn't want to give that up when they introduced the mandate). And, well, as for the announcement... the way I felt about it was that I wanted Sony (and other companies, keep in mind other companies watch other companies) to see how happy I was they were staying with discs and not online DRMing them. ANd to me that was more important than pay for online (it helps that I'm mostly an SP player). I didn't want to get messages mixed (uproar at Sony for that meant that the goodwill they got from the other thing gets hidden and when a lot of companies stand to benefit from making online a way of DRMing that would make it easy for them to say it didn't give Sony a good enough benefit).

I'm still way more concerned with the trend to make games online only and microtransactions over charging for MP games. MTs imho are way more harmful in many many ways (including encouraging bad game design, as in game design to make the game purposely imbalanced so it's less fun unless you pay to fix the balance). I'll settle with at least MS had to get rid of the ridiculous requirement that you needed Gold for Netflix or web browsing. That's at least a small win.
 

GhostTrick

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,316
Should have and will are two different things. You seem to forget they are both companies out to make money. If one company sees another company is essentially getting free money for doing something, you really expect they aren't going to try too? Sorry, but it's the reality of it. I will blame the company that comes up with it and proves it's a good way of making money (just like I really wish people had more blowback on EA for MTs cause they are the ones who really pushed it for AAA games and showed other companies they are being left behind. I would say Rockstar also showed this with GTA online being such a money maker).

Yeah, I wish Sony hadn't caved, but it really wasn't unexpected. I'm going to guess PS+ was a way to slowly introduce us to the idea (and get us used to the "free" games so we wouldn't want to give that up when they introduced the mandate). And, well, as for the announcement... the way I felt about it was that I wanted Sony (and other companies, keep in mind other companies watch other companies) to see how happy I was they were staying with discs and not online DRMing them. ANd to me that was more important than pay for online (it helps that I'm mostly an SP player). I didn't want to get messages mixed (uproar at Sony for that meant that the goodwill they got from the other thing gets hidden and when a lot of companies stand to benefit from making online a way of DRMing that would make it easy for them to say it didn't give Sony a good enough benefit).


Gacha and Gambling make a lot of money. Does it mean it's right to do it ? After all, it's free money.

That a company wants to try something, right. That the pushback is inexistent when said change has yet to be introduced is wrong.
 

Tigress

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,155
Washington
Gacha and Gambling make a lot of money. Does it mean it's right to do it ? After all, it's free money.

That a company wants to try something, right. That the pushback is inexistent when said change has yet to be introduced is wrong.

Yeah, and honestly I blame xbox fans who were completely fine with MS doing it (I was arguing with them way before PS4 was existant. So many telling me that they got better service because of it and defending it including needing it for Netflix). Sony saw people will accept it and did it too. By that time it really was a lost cause.. as I said people in general were fine with it already before Sony introduced it. They even saw MS as generous for rescinding the requirement for netflix and internet access.
 

oni-link

tag reference no one gets
Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,032
UK
I think you're mistaken in what i am getting at here. If you take care of your discs, they'll last a long time barring some cases of defect.

What i mean to highlight is, i can always go and grab my disc and get the data from it.

But if company X loses a license, decides its' not profitable, gets bought by someone who mis-uses the property or lets it just fade away, you're fucked.

When we are talking about "digital future" when it comes to games, be real, we're not talking about stuff on our drives. We're talking about stuff on accounts, digital storefronts, and the cloud. You're more concerned with trying to call me a hypocrite than addressing my point. And my one really good example is just a "well that one case sucks" but you don't address it.

Yeah it sucks, but people have Scott Pilgrim, people have it on PS3 and backed up on hard drives, and when PS3 emulation takes off the game will end up online and people will be able to play it

They shouldn't, because that would be piracy, but it won't be lost

You're bang on the money with regards to info/data being kept on accounts though, and through streaming services

You're not a hypocrite, but if someone personally wants to back up and ensure they have their games available for them, digital copies are a safer bet

My backed up version with all the patches and DLC sitting on an external hard drive is going to be better than someones disc rip of 1.0 with no patches and DLC, more so when I can keep updating my hard drive and adding more backed up copies. You disc breaks or is lost, and you're fucked
 

Deleted member 21411

Account closed at user request
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
4,907
I actually bought the collectors edition of tabula rosa.... after the servers closed for 15 dollars. Like it was a waste but I was so fascinated getting a new copy of a dead game
 

GhostTrick

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,316
Yeah, and honestly I blame xbox fans who were completely fine with MS doing it (I was arguing with them way before PS4 was existant. So many telling me that they got better service because of it and defending it including needing it for Netflix). Sony saw people will accept it and did it too. By that time it really was a lost cause.. as I said people in general were fine with it already before Sony introduced it. They even saw MS as generous for rescinding the requirement for netflix and internet access.


It wasn't the xbox fans subbing to PS+ though. And the idea that a bad practice exists on another platforms means it's inevitable on others is silly.
 

Tigress

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,155
Washington
It wasn't the xbox fans subbing to PS+ though. And the idea that a bad practice exists on another platforms means it's inevitable on others is silly.

It's reality. Companies are there to make money. if the idea makes money (especially with little effort on the companies part), they are going to do it. Even better if some one else test marketed it first to see if people will object so that company got to taek the risk. Then it's even almost risk free (This is why I said the time for people to have stopped it was when MS introduced it and it wasn't an almost risk free proposition at the time). It's the exceptional company that will refuse to do something that makes free money. For example, even CDPR is dipping their toes into MP (every company that does this is because that's where you can easily charge for MTs... people have already been shown to be accepting of it on MP games... not so much SP games). And Bethesda caved to it when they introduced Fallout Shelter (I warned people that was Bethesda testing the waters... no one listened). And then introduced Fallout 76 (oh look, an MP game from a company that before soley did SP games and a publisher who just claimed they wanted to save SP... oh, and guess what, it has microtransactions which are honestly as exploitive as any MT is, even if they were still purely cosmetic - they're not *cough* repair kits *cough*). So even the holdouts are wanting in on that MT money because they see they are leaving money on the table by not doing it.

You're overly idealistic to expect companies not to do things that make money. For their point of view it's not a bad practice if it makes them more money. It's a bad practice to ignore ways to make more money.

(and this is why unfettered capitalism is a bad thing. Companies will not do the right thing if it doesn't make them money or worse loses them money. And teh general public will only rarely agree enough that some thing is bad enough to boycott to affect their bottom lines to convince them not to do the wrong thing. In general you will always find enough people that at best don't care and at worst endorse the company doing it that the few people putting their foot down won't lose more money than doing the bad thing).
 

GhostTrick

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,316
It's reality. Companies are there to make money. if the idea makes money (especially with little effort on the companies part), they are going to do it. Even better if some one else test marketed it first to see if people will object so that company got to taek the risk. Then it's even almost risk free (This is why I said the time for people to have stopped it was when MS introduced it and it wasn't an almost risk free proposition at the time). It's the exceptional company that will refuse to do something that makes free money. For example, even CDPR is dipping their toes into MP (every company that does this is because that's where you can easily charge for MTs... people have already been shown to be accepting of it on MP games... not so much SP games). And Bethesda caved to it when they introduced Fallout Shelter (I warned people that was Bethesda testing the waters... no one listened). And then introduced Fallout 76 (oh look, an MP game from a company that before soley did SP games and a publisher who just claimed they wanted to save SP... oh, and guess what, it has microtransactions which are honestly as exploitive as any MT is, even if they were still purely cosmetic - they're not *cough* repair kits *cough*). So even the holdouts are wanting in on that MT money because they see they are leaving money on the table by not doing it.

You're overly idealistic to expect companies not to do things that make money. For their point of view it's not a bad practice if it makes them more money. It's a bad practice to ignore ways to make more money.

(and this is why unfettered capitalism is a bad thing. Companies will not do the right thing if it doesn't make them money or worse loses them money. And teh general public will only rarely agree enough that some thing is bad enough to boycott to affect their bottom lines to convince them not to do the wrong thing).


It's also reality that people can reject a practice. And it actually worked in the past: Xbox Live Gold on Windows, Paid Mods on Steam, Always online DRM on Xbox One. Lootboxes in Battlefront II.

Companies are there to make money, right. But people can also say no. And no one forced them to accept it.

I'm not "overly idealistic". I'm actually taking notes from actual exemples in the gaming industry.
 

Tigress

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,155
Washington
It's also reality that people can reject a practice. And it actually worked in the past: Xbox Live Gold on Windows, Paid Mods on Steam, Always online DRM on Xbox One. Lootboxes in Battlefront II.

Companies are there to make money, right. But people can also say no. And no one forced them to accept it.

I'm not "overly idealistic". I'm actually taking notes from actual exemples in the gaming industry.

But my original point still stands, it's easier to make that stand and reject the practice when it's an untested idea. Once it already has shown to make money, companies are just going to be sneakier about introdcuing it. Why do you think Sony introduced PS+ in the first place (before PS4 was out)? They already made their bets that the uproar was going to be less than the money they would make (they made that decision before MS fucked up everything.. that was just a gift that made it easier for Sony to hide the bad news in good news). The risk had already been shown to be not that bad as MS got almost no blowback from it (I'd say Sony got more blowback from it than MS did.. but I still remember how frustrated I was trying to argue with xbox users that they shouldn't be ok with it). And honestly, I'd bet they were right. You had people even then be happy Sony introduced pay for online cause they argued maybe their online service would be now comparable to MS's. Also... they got a lot of previous xbox people who were already used to the idea.

My point is that it would have been much better to take a stand when MS introduced it rather than wait for another company to follow suit. Ultimately this is more on MS for introducing it and the people who were ok with that more than anyone else. By the time Sony did it you already had plenty of people ok with the idea and even used to it (to the point they thought it was generous when MS removed the requirement for Netflix and internet).

Edit Oops, that was some one else I beleive (in the spoiler I randomly remembered some one saying that and thought it was you)
And... a bit hypocritical are you... cause earlier you let Nintendo off the hook because Sony did it and blamed Sony for Nintendo doing it. I'm just very confused why you are so adamant that Sony take the blame for this over anyone else.
 
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Shen

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
2
User Banned (Permanent): Using unverified personal information to attack someone
[Mod Edit: Post containing unverified information removed]
 
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regenhuber

Member
Nov 4, 2017
5,215
Here's my CoD MW story (fuck that game btw)

- managed to buy my copy one day early (yay!)
- 20-30min disc install
- 35 GB day one update
- 4 GB 1.03 update (game wasn't even on shelves, but already at 1.03... okay)
- multiple restarts because of in-game updates

tl;dr: I paid 60€ at 14:00 and didn't get to play until ca. 21:00
 

ShinNL

Banned
Nov 27, 2017
389
We have plebs trying to make the Switch online more expensive for more features. Like, fuck off, will ya? I'm already on a full shared family plan with friends and still think it's a rip off to pay for online. I traded away Splatoon 2 when paid online was introduced. Even though I have a membership now, I won't be getting that nonsense back.
 
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