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FriskyCanuck

FriskyCanuck

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,063
Toronto, Canada
I believe what Tesla did was fair.

I think Tesla customers needed that information ASAP to know what went wrong & how to prevent crashes of their own; along with piece of mind.

I don't think they are free from scrutiny or consequence though.

Seems like some rules need to be rewritten to allow important information to be released ASAP though.
If the NTSB finds that there is an urgent safety issue that needs to be addressed, they will issue the appropriate recommendation immediately. They did that in the case of a helicopter crash investigation last month.

https://www.resetera.com/threads/he...ork-citys-east-river-5-passengers-dead.29057/
 

whatsinaname

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,054
I believe what Tesla did was fair.

I think Tesla customers needed that information ASAP to know what went wrong & how to prevent crashes of their own; along with piece of mind.

I don't think they are free from scrutiny or consequence though.

Seems like some rules need to be rewritten to allow important information to be released ASAP though.

I don't agree. They were given a courtesy of helping in the investigation. We don't know what happened for that to have been retracted. NTSB, NHTSA, FAA and other such organizations have been doing a great job and and I trust them over a company whose best interest is getting their own "take" out first to the public. If they were so concerned, they would have put in a stop-sale order which is fairly standard for car manufacturers. If GM or Toyota were in the same situation, people would not be so quick to jump to their side.
 
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FriskyCanuck

FriskyCanuck

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,063
Toronto, Canada
Let's also make clear that all NTSB investigations are completely transparent. At the approriate time, they make available all collected data, interviews, correspondences, etc publicly available on a government website. All their board meetings are livestreamed and open to the public. This is a federal agency that has served the public good for over 50 years.
 
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FriskyCanuck

FriskyCanuck

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,063
Toronto, Canada
I love how they are doing this while at the same time trying to pretend it was their choice
It is very concerning to me that Tesla seems intent on badmouthing the NTSB, and accusing them of seeking press headlines. How often if at all, do you see anything relating to the NTSB make headline news on the major news networks or newspapers? Again, this is an agency that has served the public interest for more than 50 years, to suggest that the NTSB's top priority is anything but ensuring the safety of the travelling public is ludicrous.
 

Dingens

Circumventing ban with an alt account
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
2,018
It is very concerning to me that Tesla seems intent on badmouthing the NTSB, and accusing them of seeking press headlines. How often if at all, do you see anything relating to the NTSB make headline news on the major news networks or newspapers? Again, this is an agency that has served the public interest for more than 50 years, to suggest that the NTSB's top priority is anything but ensuring the safety of the travelling public is ludicrous.

well... nobody said manipulation of public opinion was exclusive to the bad guys on the political right. People just like to turn a blind eye when it comes to certain actors. It sure is quite concerning, cause this kind of behaviour is usually associated with right wing parties, badmouthing critical journalists.
 
Oct 25, 2017
20,207
People are surprised by this even when Tesla specifically tells them this. I don't know how they can be more clear about Autopilot. If a plane hit a mountains on autopilot I wonder if they would blame the manufacture or the pilot?

Do airplane autopilot systems update overnight without notifying the drivers? People on Tesla subreddit have stated they to have had fine experiences and then an OTA updates makes the autopilot wacky again. That is a huge problem

It is very concerning to me that Tesla seems intent on badmouthing the NTSB, and accusing them of seeking press headlines. How often if at all, do you see anything relating to the NTSB make headline news on the major news networks or newspapers? Again, this is an agency that has served the public interest for more than 50 years, to suggest that the NTSB's top priority is anything but ensuring the safety of the travelling public is ludicrous.

This situation reminds me a lot of the Toyota investigation from the early 00s with the floor mats and unintended acceleration. IIRC Toyota defended themselves, but not by outright blaming the drivers of their cars. It was a long and weird investigation, but Toyota's overall reputation easily rebounded and they're still here.
 
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Oct 25, 2017
20,207
Then that feature needs to be removed. It's unreliable at best and fatal at worst.

Yes, exactly. Which is why Tesla's outright victim blaming is so disgusting with this. A driver can be totally confident in their AI and then an OTA comes down, and suddenly it's unreliable. There's videos of people showing how even when at attention the behavior is erratic and not very safe.
 

Deleted member 10612

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,774
The victim blaming in this thread is quite something.

Tesla , Elon himself, has posted (fake) videos of their cars driving by themselfs. But now people need to know that when they engage autopilot it actually can't drive by itself?
 

captive

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,990
Houston
The victim blaming in this thread is quite something.

Tesla , Elon himself, has posted (fake) videos of their cars driving by themselfs. But now people need to know that when they engage autopilot it actually can't drive by itself?
lmao this post butted up with thr update is kind of funny.

Dude was playing video games. Smh
 
Oct 28, 2017
966
Then that feature needs to be removed. It's unreliable at best and fatal at worst.

It's reply's like this that make me believe people don't really understand what EAP actually is in a Tesla at all.

Should cruise control be removed from automobiles because accidents occurred while it was engaged? Be serious.
 

Deleted member 48897

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 22, 2018
13,623

geomon

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,007
Miami, FL
It's reply's like this that make me believe people don't really understand what EAP actually is in a Tesla at all.

Should cruise control be removed from automobiles because accidents occurred while it was engaged? Be serious.
And it's responses like this that make me firmly convinced that some people don't actually fucking read the entire posts they are replying too and instead immediately need to jump to a conclusion based on their emotions. Thank you so much for your input.
 

pj-

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,659
It's reply's like this that make me believe people don't really understand what EAP actually is in a Tesla at all.

That's exactly the problem.. People, including many who use it, don't know what it is

NTSB Chair Sumwalt: "if you own a car with partial automation, you do not own a self driving car. Don't pretend that you do."
 
Oct 28, 2017
966
That's exactly the problem.. People, including many who use it, don't know what it is

NTSB Chair Sumwalt: "if you own a car with partial automation, you do not own a self driving car. Don't pretend that you do."
This is honestly on owners acting irresponsibly. As an owner I don't know how people can feel even slightly comfortable treating this more than a driver assist. It's really amazing and wonderful but it is simple an assist feature.
 
Oct 28, 2017
966
And it's responses like this that make me firmly convinced that some people don't actually fucking read the entire posts they are replying too and instead immediately need to jump to a conclusion based on their emotions. Thank you so much for your input.

In what way did I demonstrate not having read the post?
 

captive

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,990
Houston
This is honestly on owners acting irresponsibly. As an owner I don't know how people can feel even slightly comfortable treating this more than a driver assist. It's really amazing and wonderful but it is simple an assist feature.
As an owner I don't have EAP, but thye did give us a month trial and a few other trials. I want to know how people circumvent the nag. Even with two hands on the wheel it said I wasn't applying enough pressure and was therefore beeping and flashing at me that I didn't have my hands on the wheel.

In what way did I demonstrate not having read the post?
You didn't.
 

pj-

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,659
This is honestly on owners acting irresponsibly. As an owner I don't know how people can feel even slightly comfortable treating this more than a driver assist. It's really amazing and wonderful but it is simple an assist feature.

It's human nature. Auto pilot is good enough at highway driving, in some places, that an average person could easily lose focus from boredom. Maybe not to the extreme of taking a nap or playing a game on their phone, but it's going to happen to some degree for a lot of people.

It is stupid that a tesla's only requires you to have your hand on the wheel to convince it that you're ready to take over at any moment. If chevy can have a camera based eye tracking system that makes sure you're paying attention, surely tesla can.
 

pj-

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,659
As an owner I don't have EAP, but thye did give us a month trial and a few other trials. I want to know how people circumvent the nag. Even with two hands on the wheel it said I wasn't applying enough pressure and was therefore beeping and flashing at me that I didn't have my hands on the wheel.


You didn't.

I believe it's torque based. If you have a hand on each side of the wheel the net torque would be close to 0. If you put 1 hand at 3 or 9 oclock then that would satisfy the nag
 

SapientWolf

Member
Nov 6, 2017
6,565
As an owner I don't have EAP, but thye did give us a month trial and a few other trials. I want to know how people circumvent the nag. Even with two hands on the wheel it said I wasn't applying enough pressure and was therefore beeping and flashing at me that I didn't have my hands on the wheel.


You didn't.
You can put your knee on the wheel and the nag messages go away.
 

grand

Member
Oct 25, 2017
24,899
The NTSB's action means Tesla may not gain access to some information obtained by the agency's investigators before it is made public, but frees the company to vigorously defend the Autopilot technology.

...

Tesla "violated the party agreement by releasing investigative information before it was vetted and confirmed by the NTSB," the safety board said in a statement. Releasing incomplete information often leads "to speculation and incorrect assumptions about the probable cause of a crash, which does a disservice to the investigative process and the traveling public," the agency said.
oh, so Tesla did this on purpose. I see
 

lint2015

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,809
That's exactly the problem.. People, including many who use it, don't know what it is

NTSB Chair Sumwalt: "if you own a car with partial automation, you do not own a self driving car. Don't pretend that you do."
Tesla bears much of the blame for that. It very likely has changed now with all their updates, but if you go back to 2018, their website boasts of all the planned capabilities of both EAP and FSD without making it clear which features are actually currently available and which are not. On the other hand, yes there are a lot of notices in the car UI that tell you the driver is responsible and must be alert at all times.

I just can't believe people are not just not paying full attention while EAP is enabled, but think it's ok to be on their phones or nap. It's literally a death wish. Maybe they have a mistaken belief of the car's capabilities based on what Tesla touts, and brush off the in-car warnings as merely regulatory requirements?

You can put your knee on the wheel and the nag messages go away.
I mean, you can, but you're an idiot if you're doing that rather than having your foot ready to engage the pedals at anytime.
 

Slayven

Never read a comic in his life
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
93,024
I still say this mostly a marketing issue, calling something "autodpilot" is just going to make most people assume the car can drive tiself. It should be driver assist or driveaid or something
 

Carbon

Deploying the stealth Cruise Missile
Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,846
I still say this mostly a marketing issue, calling something "autopilot" is just going to make most people assume the car can drive tiself. It should be driver assist or driveaid or something
But then Musk loses cool points as being the guy to first release self-driving cars to the masses.

You're absolutely right, but Elon has always hid behind the technical definition of "autopilot", something which 99% of the public has no idea about. I'm honestly surprised no one has successfully sued them to stop using the name.

The technology behind it is undoubtedly cool. It's also not real self-driving, or even what the public understands to be "autopilot". However "Advanced Lane Keep assist with Fully-adaptive Cruise control and limited path tracking" isn't a catchy or marketable a term.
 

Deleted member 8741

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
4,917
I had a Tesla loaner with autopilot this lat week and I decided to mess with it some variously because all ya'll on here told me how unsafe it is.

When you first turn it on a message pops up and beeps loudly to "keep your hands on the wheel."

If you take your hands off the wheel it will still work, but after about 30 seconds a message pops back up "Please apply gentle pressure to the wheel by placing your hands on it."

At any point you can override it by steering a bit harder than normal or by accelerating or braking.

If the conditions are bad the autopilot immediately shuts off and won't engage because of the conditions.

Some of y'all have clearly never tried it in this thread and believe what you want to. It makes you look like fools.
 

Darknight

"I'd buy that for a dollar!"
Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,798
As an owner I don't have EAP, but thye did give us a month trial and a few other trials. I want to know how people circumvent the nag. Even with two hands on the wheel it said I wasn't applying enough pressure and was therefore beeping and flashing at me that I didn't have my hands on the wheel.

I believe this changed to be more nagging since the accident and other complaints.
 

plagiarize

Eating crackers
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
27,508
Cape Cod, MA
I still say this mostly a marketing issue, calling something "autodpilot" is just going to make most people assume the car can drive tiself. It should be driver assist or driveaid or something
Autopilot is now the basic entry level option. The more advanced option is called 'Full Self-Driving' and includes features like navigate on auto-pilot where the car will change lanes to overtake slow moving traffic and take the exit from one highway to another.

Or to put it another way... Auto pilot is the tip of the iceberg.
 

Carl2282

Member
Oct 25, 2017
188
This is honestly on owners acting irresponsibly. As an owner I don't know how people can feel even slightly comfortable treating this more than a driver assist. It's really amazing and wonderful but it is simple an assist feature.
but its called autopilot... With emerging technology there's going to be a lot of issues that we haven't run into yet. We don't have a lot of automated technology, but its up to the manufacturer to generally make their products safe to use and marketed in a way that a reasonable person can understand its purpose.

In many cases regarding product liability a manufacturer can have responsibility even if a product is used in a way not intended or contemplated.
 

Deleted member 8741

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
4,917
but its called autopilot... With emerging technology there's going to be a lot of issues that we haven't run into yet. We don't have a lot of automated technology, but its up to the manufacturer to generally make their products safe to use and marketed in a way that a reasonable person can understand its purpose.

In many cases regarding product liability a manufacturer can have responsibility even if a product is used in a way not intended or contemplated.

They can call it something else, but they warn you so many times that it's not a final product, it's in beta, keep your hands on the wheel, pay attention, etc. Someone is willfully ignorant if they still believe they can play games and let the car drive.
 

DrEvil

Developer
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
2,628
Canada
Its in the damn car menu, if you own or use a tesla with Autopilot, and willfully do not educate yourself / maintain ignorance on how the features work, that's fully on you.

Before you can even activate the feature for the first time you get these screens and warnings.

"Similar to the autopilot function in airplanes, you need to maintain control and responsibility of your vehicle while enjoying the convenience of Autopilot".


"it is particularly important that you remain vigilant and in control when using driver assistance features"


Tesla_Enhanced_Autopilot_release-notes-1.jpg

tesla_autopilot.jpg
 

Carl2282

Member
Oct 25, 2017
188
They can call it something else, but they warn you so many times that it's not a final product, it's in beta, keep your hands on the wheel, pay attention, etc. Someone is willfully ignorant if they still believe they can play games and let the car drive.
I'm not disagreeing with you, but that doesn't absolve manufacturers of making safe products. There's going to be a lot of debate over what a safe product is as we see more automated vehicles. beta testing a videogame is one thing, but when it comes to a car that could plow through a school playground or bus full of nuns I do believe there should be more scrutiny.
 

Deleted member 8741

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
4,917
I'm not disagreeing with you, but that doesn't absolve manufacturers of making safe products. There's going to be a lot of debate over what a safe product is as we see more automated vehicles. beta testing a videogame is one thing, but when it comes to a car that could plow through a school playground or bus full of nuns I do believe there should be more scrutiny.

Gotcha. Yes. No disagreement on that.
 

DrEvil

Developer
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
2,628
Canada
Honestly, I don't think we should be putting features like this in the hands of the customer when they're knowingly calling it beta and a bad result can end up in someone dying.

If you're seriously defending someone willfully using their cellphone and FULLY diverting their attention from driving a 2400kg tank down a highway at 80mph to play a cellphone game while sitting in the drivers seat by saying "but its beta", then man, I don't know what to say.

There are plenty of responsible Tesla owners out there (myself included) who know wtf the feature is and how it works. And honestly, I bet the driver did too, and he took advantage of what is most of the time a pretty safe feature, and he lost that gamble.. I would imagine a lot of this fallout and outrage is coming from his family not fully understanding how it worked and trying to find ways to not accept that their own family member wasn't being anything less than a perfect driver.

If he took the time to complain about Autopilot in that specific area multiple times to Tesla, he knew how it worked. Plain and simple.

It is not full autonomy, and owners know that, if you purchase the upgrade, the delivery specialists make it a VERY important point to inform you of that and how the feature works, how you need to be aware at all times and that it DOES NOT absolve you of being responsible while behind the wheel.

You can either

a) not buy the upgrade
b) not use it

if you really wouldn't want to use a 'beta' feature. It is not forced on you in any way during your drive.
 

nillapuddin

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,240
I had a Tesla loaner with autopilot this lat week and I decided to mess with it some variously because all ya'll on here told me how unsafe it is.

When you first turn it on a message pops up and beeps loudly to "keep your hands on the wheel."

If you take your hands off the wheel it will still work, but after about 30 seconds a message pops back up "Please apply gentle pressure to the wheel by placing your hands on it."

At any point you can override it by steering a bit harder than normal or by accelerating or braking.

If the conditions are bad the autopilot immediately shuts off and won't engage because of the conditions.

Some of y'all have clearly never tried it in this thread and believe what you want to. It makes you look like fools.

Absolutely hilarious how most of these posters continuously ignore posts like yours just to keep harping on the same anti Tesla narrative.

Personally it's clear as day, the car gives you a ton of warnings and the guy was too focused on wanting to play freaking mobile phone games than actually continue living.

Cell phone records for Huang's iPhone 8-plus show he was active on the "Three Kingdoms" video game, his hands off the steering wheel in the six seconds before impact, and that he was on the game driving to work each day that week.

Combined with the demonstration video from the guy with the X, yeah it's not a huge amount of distance but for goodness sake it's plenty to realize and course correct.

Some folks just ignore the truth when it's directly in front of them. Blaming the name of the feature instead of the hard fact that it was owner misuse.
 
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Darknight

"I'd buy that for a dollar!"
Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,798
If you're seriously defending someone willfully using their cellphone and FULLY diverting their attention from driving a 2400kg tank down a highway at 80mph to play a cellphone game while sitting in the drivers seat by saying "but its beta", then man, I don't know what to say.

There are plenty of responsible Tesla owners out there (myself included) who know wtf the feature is and how it works. And honestly, I bet the driver did too, and he took advantage of what is most of the time a pretty safe feature, and he lost that gamble.. I would imagine a lot of this fallout and outrage is coming from his family not fully understanding how it worked and trying to find ways to not accept that their own family member wasn't being anything less than a perfect driver.

If he took the time to complain about Autopilot in that specific area multiple times to Tesla, he knew how it worked. Plain and simple.

But I'm not defending the driver in this incident?

I'm talking about the pure notion of if we should be putting this type of functionality in the hands of the end user in the state it's in especially when they're calling it being in beta form. I think companies are trying to shove this out too soon to the end users in order to get themselves a leg up on their competition and I think that's a bit dangerous to do.
 

nillapuddin

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,240
Holy shit, not only that but after reading the article the barricade was busted and unsafe to begin with, smh, so much at fault and *whispers* none of it was teslas fault you goofs

"The board faulted the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration for lack of oversight, and state agencies for another big failure. A Prius driver hit that same barrier at 70 miles an hour and waked away, 11 days before Huang died. But the CHP did not report the damage to CalTrans. Highway workers eventually put up some cones in the area, but did not fix the safety cushion or "crash attenuator" before Walter Huang's Tesla slammed into it.

NTSB Investigator Dr. Thomas Barth said, "Had the previous collision that happened prior to this one not collapsed the attenuator and had it been operational, the driver would have likely survived.""
 

DrEvil

Developer
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
2,628
Canada
But I'm not defending the driver in this incident?

I'm talking about the pure notion of if we should be putting this type of functionality in the hands of the end user in the state it's in especially when they're calling it being in beta form. I think companies are trying to shove this out too soon to the end users in order to get themselves a leg up on their competition and I think that's a bit dangerous to do.


How do you propose it gets out of beta then? Autopilot has billions upon billions of miles driven purely from informed drivers WILLFULLY participating in the program which has led to the incredible leaps that Tesla has been able to make with the software itself.

It is not perfect. I have had my fair share of ghost braking moments when going under an underpass on an overly bright day, but guess what? I was paying attention, and I continue to pay attention while using the feature. I am always prepared to take over for the car - Just like it tells me to every time I activate the damn feature - at a moments notice.


Imagine how much in this world wouldn't exist if we didn't test it en masse first.

Autopilot has been around since 2012. Eight years of testing. How many AP accidents have led to an actual death? Wiki says 5. - one of which being the one this thread is discussing. ( I wouldn't be surprised if we dug into news stories surrounding the other four, that there were probably circumstances that were unavoidable. Much like this one where a truck crossed a highway and slowed down in a way where the Tesla couldn't stop/avoid.)

I wouldn't even consider this one an AP accident because - checks notes - he was on his fucking phone.
 
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Darknight

"I'd buy that for a dollar!"
Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,798
How do you propose it gets out of beta then? Autopilot has billions upon billions of miles driven purely from informed drivers WILLFULLY participating in the program which has led to the incredible leaps that Tesla has been able to make with the software itself.

It is not perfect. I have had my fair share of ghost braking moments when going under an underpass on an overly bright day, but guess what? I was paying attention, and I continue to pay attention while using the feature. I am always prepared to take over for the car - Just like it tells me to every time I activate the damn feature - at a moments notice.


Imagine how much in this world wouldn't exist if we didn't test it en masse first.

Autopilot has been around since 2012. Eight years of testing. How many AP accidents have led to an actual death? Wiki says 5. - one of which being the one this thread is discussing.

I wouldn't even consider this one an AP accident because - checks notes - he was on his fucking phone.

How many things in this world do we put in the hands of the end user to beta test that could potentially lead to death in a manner like this? I think for starters, instead of pushing it out to the end user trying to promote this automated driving functionality long before it's ready since they're still calling it in Beta, they could have not allowed the functionality and gathered data and simulated it on the car and collected the results over time before actually allowing it to be live in the hands of the end user. People are dumb; they're going to do things they shouldn't do with the technology but I think it isn't the wisest course of action to put such functionality in the hands of the end user to beta test in this way. Personally, I think Google/Wavemo have been more responsible about how they've handled this and haven't rushed to get it to the mass market in the hands of the end user.
 

Ryno23

Banned
Dec 13, 2017
1,097
How many things in this world do we put in the hands of the end user to beta test that could potentially lead to death in a manner like this? I think for starters, instead of pushing it out to the end user trying to promote this automated driving functionality long before it's ready since they're still calling it in Beta, they could have not allowed the functionality and gathered data and simulated it on the car and collected the results over time before actually allowing it to be live in the hands of the end user. People are dumb; they're going to do things they shouldn't do with the technology but I think it isn't the wisest course of action to put such functionality in the hands of the end user to beta test in this way. Personally, I think Google/Wavemo have been more responsible about how they've handled this and haven't rushed to get it to the mass market in the hands of the end user.

This fails to consider just how many accidents prevented and lifes saved because of Autopilot. How many people that fell asleep behind the wheel are still around because they had Autopilot on. All the data shows Autopilot+human paying attention is far FAR safer than just a human driver.

Around 6 times safer than average car on road:
In the 4th quarter, we registered one accident for every 3.07 million miles driven in which drivers had Autopilot engaged. For those driving without Autopilot but with our active safety features, we registered one accident for every 2.10 million miles driven. For those driving without Autopilot and without our active safety features, we registered one accident for every 1.64 million miles driven. By comparison, NHTSA's most recent data shows that in the United States there is an automobile crash every 479,000 miles.*

www.tesla.com

Tesla Vehicle Safety Report | Tesla

At Tesla, we believe that technology can help improve safety. That’s why Tesla vehicles are engineered to be the safest cars in the world. We believe the unique combination of passive safety, active safety, and automated driver assistance is crucial for keeping not just Tesla drivers and...
 
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DrEvil

Developer
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
2,628
Canada
How many things in this world do we put in the hands of the end user to beta test that could potentially lead to death in a manner like this?

One could say that experimental medical procedures, clinical drug trials, or Genetically altered foodstuffs (meat/vegs) could fit that bill.

I think for starters, instead of pushing it out to the end user trying to promote this automated driving functionality long before it's ready since they're still calling it in Beta, they could have not allowed the functionality and gathered data and simulated it on the car and collected the results over time before actually allowing it to be live in the hands of the end user.

They did exactly that, and also opened it up to fleet use for those who were aware of the early testing phases when it first became available on the Model S. Even when they did hardware revisions from AP1 to AP2 they had a very large information campaign for owners that certain features didn't make it to the new version and were still under testing / not performing as expected.


People are dumb; they're going to do things they shouldn't do with the technology but I think it isn't the wisest course of action to put such functionality in the hands of the end user to beta test in this way.

Darwinism is a thing that exists. You can't save everyone from themselves.
See: Paying attention to Three Kingdoms instead of the road while operating a motor vehicle.
 

Darknight

"I'd buy that for a dollar!"
Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,798
One could say that experimental medical procedures, clinical drug trials, or Genetically altered foodstuffs (meat/vegs) could fit that bill.

Not quite the same thing. When someone goes for experimental medical procedures or drug trials, they're agreeing to it knowing the risks and those risks are limited to the person who is taking on that risk. If a car crashes into someone else due to an edge case or bug from the beta software, the person on the other end who gets killed didn't agree to the beta testing.

They did exactly that, and also opened it up to fleet use for those who were aware of the early testing phases when it first became available on the Model S. Even when they did hardware revisions from AP1 to AP2 they had a very large information campaign for owners that certain features didn't make it to the new version and were still under testing / not performing as expected.

The fact that you've stated it's done something wrong in your presence though tells me they're pushing it out too fast. Sure you caught it, but that doesn't mean having that type of experimental beta functionality should be in the hands of the masses at this point in time. It's great that you like to be on the cutting edge and believe this is how we should further it, but that doesn't mean this is actually something we should actually be placing in the hands of the users. Uber tried to rush their shit and it ended in someone dying. Now I'm not saying Tesla's current state is anywhere near as shitty as Uber is, but it's a sign that these companies are trying to push things out in order to beat the competition, and let's face it, Tesla is trying to push it out as fast as they can in order to get the leg up on everyone else. Let's also face the fact that it was only recently with the Model 3 where this started spreading to be in the hands of significantly more people. I personally would have preferred that Tesla would have had more cars on the road collecting data before enabling it. The massive uptick in users is something that shouldn't be ignored from suddenly allowing to have access to beta functionality.

Darwinism is a thing that exists. You can't save everyone from themselves.

No, but we can regulate it and make sure this isn't being pushed out faster than it should be. Again, Google/Wavemo haven't pushed it out to the masses. They're doing it more responsibly in my opinion.