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Jersey_Tom

Banned
Dec 2, 2017
4,764
Terry was wrong, but also you can't get the full experience or be able to talk on the full experience of being a man from a book.

I think prople should be exposed to all views growing up, especially a male perspective for boys, but it can come from any man, preferably many. Also many other points of view for a balanced perspective.

My point being that you don't have to be X to talk about Y. Just as that reporter didn't have to be a football player/man to talk about route running, the person who wrote that Op-Ed didn't need to be a man to talk about expectations and the role of masculinity in society.

The real problem would be if either of these women attempted to represent themselves as something that they're not. You'd obviously and rightly take umbrage with the reporter asking questions in a way that would suggest she'd played in the NFL. Or the Op-Ed writer claiming "based on my personal experiences of being a woman I understand exactly what it's like to be a man." Neither says that or represents their points as such. In academia, one often pulls from the research and experiences of others in order to make and defend a point. Given simple laws of averages you will almost certainly come across a man in your daily life. You may even build a relationship with that person. Getting their perspective is of course important and can help shape our understanding on the experience of being a man. That then allows that person to speak from a more enlightened place, especially when weighing that experience against others and possibly even combining that with trusted academic works on the subject in order to form a greater understanding of the subject.

We therefore don't need to resort to the notion that only certain people are allowed to talk about certain things based solely upon such shallow criteria as "you aren't the correct gender to discuss this topic."
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,959
User banned (2 weeks): misandry + history of inflammatory posting
I don't believe children require any male influence / father figure / paternal figure.

Seriously dads [especially baby boomers and preceding] are fucking morons who just fuck up their kids.

Men are irrelevant outside semen.

Sad to see Terry isn't perfect after all :/
 

Corky

Alt account
Banned
Dec 5, 2018
2,479
I don't believe children require any male influence / father figure / paternal figure.

Seriously dads [especially baby boomers and preceding] are fucking morons who just fuck up their kids.

Men are irrelevant outside semen.

Sad to see Terry isn't perfect after all :/
Well after all he is one of those men you hate so much
 

Merv

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,460
I don't believe children require any male influence / father figure / paternal figure.

Seriously dads [especially baby boomers and preceding] are fucking morons who just fuck up their kids.

Men are irrelevant outside semen.

Sad to see Terry isn't perfect after all :/

Thanks for saying my kids don't need me. Maybe we can all just be raised by an AI.
 

i-hate-u

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,374
I don't believe children require any male influence / father figure / paternal figure.

Seriously dads [especially baby boomers and preceding] are fucking morons who just fuck up their kids.

Men are irrelevant outside semen.

Sad to see Terry isn't perfect after all :/

baINLAUH.jpg


Imagine if someone said the same about women on this forum.
 

Deleted member 10060

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
959
I don't believe children require any male influence / father figure / paternal figure.

Seriously dads [especially baby boomers and preceding] are fucking morons who just fuck up their kids.

Men are irrelevant outside semen.

Sad to see Terry isn't perfect after all :/

I'm glad you're up front and honest about your asinine views. The sad thing is that you are just being a useful idiot for all the alt righters who think every leftie and feminist want men dead.

Thanks, I guess?
 

Merv

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,460
My point being that you don't have to be X to talk about Y. Just as that reporter didn't have to be a football player/man to talk about route running, the person who wrote that Op-Ed didn't need to be a man to talk about expectations and the role of masculinity in society.

The real problem would be if either of these women attempted to represent themselves as something that they're not. You'd obviously and rightly take umbrage with the reporter asking questions in a way that would suggest she'd played in the NFL. Or the Op-Ed writer claiming "based on my personal experiences of being a woman I understand exactly what it's like to be a man." Neither says that or represents their points as such. In academia, one often pulls from the research and experiences of others in order to make and defend a point. Given simple laws of averages you will almost certainly come across a man in your daily life. You may even build a relationship with that person. Getting their perspective is of course important and can help shape our understanding on the experience of being a man. That then allows that person to speak from a more enlightened place, especially when weighing that experience against others and possibly even combining that with trusted academic works on the subject in order to form a greater understanding of the subject.

We therefore don't need to resort to the notion that only certain people are allowed to talk about certain things based solely upon such shallow criteria as "you aren't the correct gender to discuss this topic."

I get what you are saying and I agree in the context of a professional sports announcer discussing plays or a woman speaking on mens issues. I just don't think disconnecting men from child rearing as others have said(not you) is the right way. It doesn't have to be the father obviously.
 

Mona

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
26,151
I don't believe children require any male influence / father figure / paternal figure.

Seriously dads [especially baby boomers and preceding] are fucking morons who just fuck up their kids.

Men are irrelevant outside semen.

Sad to see Terry isn't perfect after all :/

well aint that some shit
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,293
I think getting defensive is a pretty normal reaction when people push back hard. I know I have in the past with some shitty views of my own. Challenging someones beliefs can feel like an attack against you as a person when its not. Letting go of something you feel is right isn't always easy at first, or obvious when you are wrong. When the dust settles is when a lot of people are able to gather their thoughts and do a little introspection.

I at least hope this is true in his case.

As someone who has dealt with abuse and discrimination in the past, I would hope that he can empathize and see more clearly after giving it some thought about this whole thing.
That's what I'm saying - I expected more of him specifically because he has shown great awareness of how toxic those types of reactions often are.

Unrelated edit: Oh, we're banning people "for misandry" now? Yikes.
 
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zashga

Losing is fun
Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,200
I'm struggling to read this in a way that's not nakedly homophobic. At the very least, it seems like Crews has some weirdly dissonant beliefs about gender and parenting. Toxic masculinity is bad, but traditional gender roles (and role models) are essential. Kids can find role models outside of their parents or immediate family, but same sex parents can't provide for their kids emotionally. None of this is a good look, and now it looks like he's reflexively falling in with the anti-SJW crowd.
 

Jersey_Tom

Banned
Dec 2, 2017
4,764
I get what you are saying and I agree in the context of a professional sports announcer discussing plays or a woman speaking on mens issues. I just don't think disconnecting men from child rearing as others have said(not you) is the right way. It doesn't have to be the father obviously.

Well I think that goes back to again what I mentioned previously that Crews did a poor job of articulating his point. Having a positive man in your life growing up is of course valuable.

This issue Crews had (aside from suggesting a woman couldn't talk on the subject of manhood based solely on her gender) was his insistence on using the terms "father/father-figure/paternity" etc., especially when juxtaposed with the concept of same-sex couples who happen to be women. It flirted with many of the same right-wing nonsense about how same-sex couples are inherently inferior to heterosexual couples because of the abscense of a mother/father, a notion which has been thoroughly debunked.

We've gotten to the point now where in Crews' Twitter comments we can generally piece together what his larger point was; the importance of children having positive men to look up to in their lives, which isn't something that I think many reasonable people would disagree with. Unfortunately it's buried underneath some problematic language and him not wanting to understand the actual problem with what he was saying/nor treat people as having legitimate concerns. Instead he treated it like a joke and fell back on some Kanye-esque "I'm an independent thinker" nonsense that doesn't actually address what he's talking about, but acts as a way for himself to eject from the conversation without confronting and defending what he says based on the substance.
 
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teacup

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
686
That's what I'm saying - I expected more of him specifically because he has shown great awareness of how toxic those types of reactions often are.

Unrelated ddit: Oh, we're banning people "for misandry" now? Yikes.
I mean do you think that post is acceptable in a progressive forum?


I feel for crews but the take here shouldn't be the blunt and short sighted "crews is homophobic!" But rather a more nuanced take about how crews is African American in a country that regular takes down Black men, jails them, doesn't employ them and as a result has a lot of absent fathers. It's something that a lot of black people have talked about it tv, music, movies etc.

Yes words matter etc and he's apologised. But if this is the level to think he's horrible or disappointing or to be cancelled or whatever then I'd wonder who we have left.
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,293
I mean do you think that post is acceptable in a progressive forum?

I don't think being mean to the ruling class should be unacceptable, but whatever. Not my call.

On the other half of your post; I agree with you in a sense, but that excuse goes for a lot of men out there and as someone preaching for men to take responsibility, so should he in this case.
 

teacup

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
686
I don't think being mean to the ruling class should be unacceptable, but whatever. Not my call.

On the other half of your post; I agree with you in a sense, but that excuse goes for a lot of men out there and as someone preaching for men to take responsibility, so should he in this case.

I'm a big proponent of power being considered when it comes to punishment and I get it but this isn't some trump style both sides shit, that post was straight up just troll posting and deserved a ban. I'm not even offended but it's just so deliberately on the nose you kind of have to do something.
 

Shpeshal Nick

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,856
Melbourne, Australia
He seems to be apologizing for the wording, not the intent, which still seems to be that children need a father and a mother in order to get proper love.

Which I disagree with.

He didn't say mother and father. He said maternal and paternal love. Technically not the same.

You can have two mothers and get paternal love from say...an uncle. Or grandfather.
 

Musubi

Unshakable Resolve - Prophet of Truth
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
23,611
Extremely disappointing. His "apology" is really flaccid as well. If you wanna deal with toxic masculinity Terry you have to LISTEN to people. You can't sit there and say your cool with gay people and then say they can't properly raise a child. Like WTF is that shit? Obviously being a father means a whole lot to him but he is projecting his emotions about fatherhood onto other people in a really harmful way here.
 

joecanada

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,651
Canada
I don't think being mean to the ruling class should be unacceptable, but whatever. Not my call.

On the other half of your post; I agree with you in a sense, but that excuse goes for a lot of men out there and as someone preaching for men to take responsibility, so should he in this case.
Men aren't the ruling class specific groups are
That poster was shitposting pure and simple .
 

AgonyRon

Member
Nov 27, 2017
687
In the end i believe everybody got an opinion that will upset somebody. I really think nobody only says perfect stuff.
 

RedMercury

Blue Venus
Member
Dec 24, 2017
17,655
In the end i believe everybody got an opinion that will upset somebody. I really think nobody only says perfect stuff.
I mean there's levels. I hate tomatoes, I think they are gross - that opinion which someone may not like is a far cry from what TC said. Opinions that are objectively wrong and harmful aren't okay, nobody expects perfection, but we do expect people to apologize and learn why they were wrong.
 

AgonyRon

Member
Nov 27, 2017
687
I mean there's levels. I hate tomatoes, I think they are gross - that opinion which someone may not like is a far cry from what TC said. Opinions that are objectively wrong and harmful aren't okay, nobody expects perfection, but we do expect people to apologize and learn why they were wrong.
I understand what you mean, but why would he apologize if he thinks he's right?
 

Deleted member 13645

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
6,052
Ah man, Terry needs to do a bit of learning. I understand what he's trying to say, but the way he said it was really bad and he's doubling down and getting defensive rather than just stepping back and listening. I imagine that can be pretty hard though, especially on a platform like Twitter where you have thousands of people able to bombard you.

I think Terry Crews had done a lot of good, and he has been a good role model in a time where it seems increasingly hard to find those, but no one is perfect and hopefully he learns from all this.
 

Einchy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
42,659
I mean there's levels. I hate tomatoes, I think they are gross - that opinion which someone may not like is a far cry from what TC said. Opinions that are objectively wrong and harmful aren't okay, nobody expects perfection, but we do expect people to apologize and learn why they were wrong.
Nobody? Really? Cancel culture is all about finding people who slip up and are no longer perfect.
 

Opto

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
4,546
Terry has to stop being on twitter right now, talk to smart people about what he said, and come back better.
 

Xiaomi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,237
It seems like a very odd thing to say unless you believe that queer parents are making a choice to live outside heterosexual norms. Like, if someone came and said that children without Asian or Jewish parents are malnourished because they will statistically have lower education, income, etc., no one would even entertain the thought, nor would you see well-meaning liberals rush to say "Well it is important for children to have a good Jewish or Asian rolemodel somewhere in their lives." But unfortunately with traditional gender and sexual roles there are people who will say "Now hang on a minute, maybe they're onto something..."
 
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elenarie

Game Developer
Verified
Jun 10, 2018
9,811
Got to love it when people are edgy, apologise, and then continue to ramble on.
Where is the logic in that? What the hell are you doing, dude?
Someone seems to be working hard on making themselves look even more idiotic.
 

John Rabbit

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,104
Whether he's executing his message "correctly" or not, his actual message still sucks. Men don't own masculinity any more than women own femininity. Both are halves to a whole and can be expressed by all genders. There's also no Universal rule that someone must be a perfect balance of the two either. A person is not less-than because he isn't as 'masculine' as he could be, and vice versa. His reductionist nuclear-family thinking is archaic and silly.
 

RedMercury

Blue Venus
Member
Dec 24, 2017
17,655
Nobody? Really? Cancel culture is all about finding people who slip up and are no longer perfect.
"Cancel culture" is a funny way to frame people finally waking up to progressive values and pushing back against regressive ones. Who would have an issue with that? Besides, TC made his comment of his own volition, and it wasn't like it was years ago, plus he refuses to apologize for it.
 

Deleted member 20284

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
2,889
I just don't get why people can't stick to their own. You want the traditional dad and mum raised kids, cool, go for it. How in the fuck does that equate to spouting it out loud on twitter about demeaning how others live their life or raise their kids? There isn't a one size fits all to raising kids.

My wife and I prefer dad and mum roles but we support others with whatever they deem "right" for their lives/families. Why would I care if two dads or mums raise their kids to the best of their ability? In my observations usually same sex couples really want their kids and put a shit-ton of effort into raising them, rather than the traditional dad/mum oh we're supposed to have kids now progression after marriage. Any kid that has two parents loving and caring for them is lucky, gender has little to do with it and I've seen far too many "phone it in" or not even present parents that it's not an automatic pass for being a good parent to just have the boxes ticked as male dad and female mum roles.

Silly stuff there Terry and not a hill you need to die on.
 

Einchy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
42,659
I can't keep up with all the dismissive terminology people are using to describe progressive action these days, what's your definition of cancel culture exactly?
Cancel culture is not dismissive and I've never seen anyone but leftist use it. This quote I found goes over it pretty well:
We're in a culture now where we're discarding people before we actually decide: Do we want to create healthy room for people to learn from their mistakes and show us through their actions that they have changed or do we want to cancel this person, ostracise them from the community, and then be angry with them for not trying to win us back? Yes, that might be necessary in certain, extreme circumstances but for the most part it just creates more difference and misunderstanding.

This "cancel culture" is not only applicable to disagreements online, but can also be an outcome of the kind of intense idolatry that an online following encourages, Eggerue says.
"When you idolise someone you say that you find them a role model, that they're goals, but then you're dehumanising them at the same time because you're robbing them of the ability to be wrong, the ability to make mistakes. So when the person you've been adoring eventually slips up, which we all do, then it's like 'I'm so let down by this, I can't believe this.

https://www.vogue.co.uk/article/chidera-eggerue-interview

Cancel culture is all about wanting people to be perfect and throwing them away the second they reveal themselves to be human who aren't perfect.
 

Speevy

Member
Oct 26, 2017
19,351
As a teacher, I have to conclude that having two parents in the household can make a difference if the parents to their job.

I'm sure gay couples do just as fine (or bad) a job as straight couples.