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Convasse

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Oct 26, 2017
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Before we begin, I just want to remind you all that partial credit is available to students who can at least show me how they reached their conclusion. If you put the answer down without explanation and it's wrong ... I will award you no points and may God have mercy upon your soul.
Right, so as the discussion about PlayStation 5 and Xbox Series X rages, the discussion around teraflops seems to, for the most part, lack specificity. What do these numbers mean, Mason?

TERA-FLOP/S:
TERA - Metric system unit prefix that indicates multiplication by 10^12 or 1,000,000,000,000 (1 Trillion with a capital T); Derived from Greek TERAS (τέρας), which can be taken to mean "monster"
I can't quite put my finger on where I've heard that before ... anyways, what'd you have for breakfast?
FLOP/S - Measure of computing performance that stands for floating-point operations per second; fixed-point operations handle integers (positive and negative whole numbers) while floating-point operations do that AND handle rational/irrational numbers and decimal points. Floating point arithmetic is more complex, therefore the higher the (prefix)flop number, the more theoretical computing power it has.*1,2
Cool, so Xbox Series X can do 12.1 Trillion floating-point operations per second while the PlayStation 5 can to 10.3 Trillion floating-point operations per second. So that's just a *checks notes* 16% difference.
Did not I ask you to show your work?

A teraflop is function. Do you remember what a function is? Mathematically speaking, a function is a relationship or expression involving one or more variables. Much of our TF/s discussion is missing study of these variables. So let us look at the inputs that go into the output of the TF/s we love so dearly.

TF/s = # of compute units * 64 shaders * 2 instructions per cycle (or clock) * clock speed/frequency

Let me write this out on the whiteboard:
XSX: 52 compute units * 64 shaders * 2 IPC * 1.825 = ~12.1 TF/s
PS5: 36 compute units * 64 shaders * 2 IPC * 2.230 = ~10.3 TF/s
Ahh hell! Where did all these new numbers come from? You mean we can't just boil this whole discussion down to 1 simple-to-understand number?!
Why yes, that is an astute observation there, student!

You see, in order to calculate computing power, you need to include the workforce behind the computing. What's pushing these numbers? That would be the shaders (or shading units). Compute units (CU) are just clusters of 64 shaders each. These shaders are involved in rasterization. What's rasterization you ask?
With rasterization, objects on the screen are created from a mesh of virtual triangles, or polygons, that create 3D models of objects. In this virtual mesh, the corners of each triangle — known as vertices — intersect with the vertices of other triangles of different sizes and shapes. A lot of information is associated with each vertex, including its position in space, as well as information about color, texture and its "normal," which is used to determine the way the surface of an object is facing.

Computers then convert the triangles of the 3D models into pixels, or dots, on a 2D screen. Each pixel can be assigned an initial color value from the data stored in the triangle vertices.*3
Back to the whiteboard:
XSX: 52 compute units * 64 shaders per compute unit = 3328 shaders
PS5: 36 compute units * 64 shaders per compute unit = 2304 shaders

A different picture begins to form now. We are looking at a 36% shading gulf between the two console GPUs. Think of this situation as two factories: Factory X has 3,300 workers, Factory P has 2,300 workers. Factory X is going to do more work. Obviously. We are in agreement there. It's obvious. Right? Just to reiterate, you cannot magically make up for 1,000 missing workers. These numbers cannot lie.

But wait, we are still missing some context. What about the IPC and how do we account for the clock speed? Let's continue with the factory analogy. We must factor in how quickly these workers ... work.

Assume that each worker at Factories X and P is capable of packing 2 boxes per shipment (instructions per clock). Factory P's workers pack those shipments faster (2.23 GHz clock speed) while Factory X's shipment processing speed is slower (1.825 GHz clock speed). A downside to Factory P's speed is that the workers move so quickly, there may be moments of productivity dips (variable frequency) where Factory X's workers have a more standard pace (locked frequency).
Hold the phone, where was all of this information in the soundbites on YouTube or the hot takes on Twitter and Reddit and here?!
Well, you would have to read what the Xbox team published for their XSX specs, you would have to pay attention to Mark Cerny's lecture on PS5, and you would have to read Digital Foundry's excellent write-ups on both consoles as well. Let's face it. We have short attention spans aaaaaand that's a lot of research aaaaaand it's easier to go X is bigger than Y therefore X is better, full stop.

And mind you, this is to say nothing about how ROP count (render output units) or TMU count (texture mapping units) contribute to overall factory productivity. But it does help frame and contextualize our discussion more appropriately.

What We Learn?

I've been following the TF/s discussion since it rose to prominence in late 2012/early 2013 with the PS4 GPU leaks. Over the years, many technical experts and developers have talked, in passing and in detail, about the importance of the variables that make up the "teraflop." Shaders and frequency are important to a rendering pipeline, which is why they must be considered when talking about TF/s.

It seems clear to me that the Xbox and PlayStation groups had different design priorities when it came to designing their consoles.

Xbox Series X isn't going to approach things with a mere "brute force" approach. Perhaps some forget that consoles have never been about brute force; that is PC GPU domain, and NVIDIA will be demonstrating that with the sheer power of the RTX 3000 line eventually. The engineers behind the XSX have already done basic outlining of the optimizations and specializations that can be found in the upcoming console. Let's not forget the work MS and AMD have done together on the machine. XSX is as strong as is it because Microsoft seems poised to offer a lower-end SKU.

In the same breath, M. Cerny and the PlayStation 5 engineers clearly centered their vision for the console around an absurdly fast customized NVMe SSD and their impressive Tempest Audio engine. PlayStation 5 also has a number of specializations and optimizations that give it room to maneuver as well, as Cerny so eloquently described in his THE ROAD TO PS5 lecture yesterday.

I hope that I made the case that the TF/s discussion requires more nuance.

Since both consoles are using very similar parts from AMD and are direct competitors, technical comparisons are appropriate. It is obvious at just a glance that XSX is stronger from what we understand for traditional rasterization and ray-tracing, but as always is the case, we will see how these machines do things in practice.

NVMe storage is being hailed as a paradigm-shift for game design. If it is, the team that bet heaviest on it could make significant gains. At the same time, raytracing is the HOLY GRAIL for lighting and as advancements are made, the team that has more resources in place for it could make heavy gains as well.

Some developers, both 1st and 3rd party, are going to get more from both AND either of these machines than others.

At the same time, holistically speaking, we're coming off of 8th generation consoles with weak CPUs and HDDs and upgrading to 9th generation consoles that BOTH have custom NVMe SSDs, strong Zen 2 8-core SMT-enabled CPUs, RDNA2 GPUs, and fast GDDR6 RAM.

That alone is worthy of community celebration, methinks. Thanks for reading!

Footnotes:
*1: The Scientist and Engineer's Guide to Digital Signal Processing: Chapter 28: Digital Signal Processors - Steven W. Smith, Ph.D.
*2: Fixed-Point vs. Floating-Point Digital Signal Processing
*3: What's the Difference Between Ray Tracing and Rasterization? - Brian Caulfield

Percentage Difference formula: The absolute value of the change in value, divided by the average of the 2 numbers, all multiplied by 100.
E.G. [ |12.1 - 10.3| / (12.1 + 10.3) /2 ] * 100
 
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Deleted member 2441

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I made the point in the thread yesterday after reading so many armchair systems engineers say "well basically it's 9.2 TFLOPs" as if they had a clue what that actually means or how they could have possible arrived at that conclusion.

Bringing the word "Teraflop" into the standard gaming vernacular was one of the worst hardware marketing trends of last generation, as uneducated people make ill-informed, kneejerk judgements based off a number and concept they don't even truly understand.

And this is with no commentary on the boxes themselves.
 

Jerm411

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Oct 27, 2017
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I made the point in the thread yesterday after reading so many armchair systems engineers say "well basically it's 9.2 TFLOPs" as if they had a clue what that actually means or how they could have possible arrived at that conclusion.

Bringing the word "Teraflop" into the standard gaming vernacular was one of the worst hardware marketing trends of last generation, as uneducated people make ill-informed, kneejerk judgements based off a number and concept they don't even truly understand.

And this is with no commentary on the boxes themselves.

If I never heard the word Teraflop again, I'll be just fine...just tired of hearing about them lol.

Sad part is, it's all we'll hear about until the consoles launch.
 

Coma Ecliptic

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Oct 25, 2017
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The introduction of Teraflop's into gaming reminds me of the rush for Megapixels.

While Megapixels make up a part of the story, there's a reason why Canon's Mark 5D III crushes other cameras that have MUCH higher Megapixel counts.

TFlops was a dumb marketing gimmick that Microsoft introduced with Scorpio, unfortunately, it's been latched on to as the end all be all of the performance. This couldn't be further from the truth.
 

Dokkaebi G0SU

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Nov 2, 2017
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definitely helped me understand more. thank you

The introduction of Teraflop's into gaming reminds me of the rush for Megapixels.

While Megapixels make up a part of the story, there's a reason why Canon's Mark 5D III crushes other cameras that have MUCH higher Megapixel counts.

TFlops was a dumb marketing gimmick that Microsoft introduced with Scorpio, unfortunately, it's been latched on to as the end all be all of the performance. This couldn't be further from the truth.

mm i thought it started with the ps4? the talk about 1080p and their powergulf was the breadth of playstation during that time.
 

Corralx

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Aug 23, 2018
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The real question is why are TFs so crucial to hardcore gamers and console fanatics while actual graphics programmer don't ever use it as a metric for... anything?
 

Deleted member 64290

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The introduction of Teraflop's into gaming reminds me of the rush for Megapixels.

While Megapixels make up a part of the story, there's a reason why Canon's Mark 5D III crushes other cameras that have MUCH higher Megapixel counts.

TFlops was a dumb marketing gimmick that Microsoft introduced with Scorpio, unfortunately, it's been latched on to as the end all be all of the performance. This couldn't be further from the truth.

No it wasn't, people were talking about terraflops around the beginning of eighth gen.

I must say that it's pretty that your disdain for a company has affected your way of thinking.
 
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Convasse

Convasse

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Oct 26, 2017
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The introduction of Teraflop's into gaming reminds me of the rush for Megapixels.

While Megapixels make up a part of the story, there's a reason why Canon's Mark 5D III crushes other cameras that have MUCH higher Megapixel counts.

TFlops was a dumb marketing gimmick that Microsoft introduced with Scorpio, unfortunately, it's been latched on to as the end all be all of the performance. This couldn't be further from the truth.
This is actually not true. TF/s became a talking point in 2013 when the PS4 GPU leaked. 1.84 TF/s was a standard part of the 8th generation technical discussion for some time before Microsoft even announced Project Scorpio. And the reason MS went so hard with the TF/s messaging for Xbox One X was because Xbox One was 1.23 TF/s, which was computationally quite a shortfall from PlayStation 4 (12CU/768SU for XB1 vs 18CU/1152SU for PS4).

Additionally, it is said (and I've tried to find receipts for this, to no avail) that Epic wanted 8th generation consoles to be 2 TF/s or more and initially saw both Xbox One and PlayStation 4 as anemic, especially Xbox One.
So yeah, it's not a simple story as to how this measure got stuck in the collective conscious.
 

Fisty

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Oct 25, 2017
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MS could have better ray tracing on XSX, but it will likely have zero ray tracing on Lockhart. I dont like what that means for RT next gen, tbh. Features that only work on "premium" hardware are almost always the lowest priority in development, and devs wont be able to rely on RT for lighting or whatever if Lockhart cant handle it so they will likely be stuck with double work if they want to support RT
 

DanteMenethil

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Oct 25, 2017
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You guys have funny memories with the tflops thing being new. I remember talking about flops back when I bought an hd5850 a decade ago
 

StudioTan

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Oct 27, 2017
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The introduction of Teraflop's into gaming reminds me of the rush for Megapixels.

While Megapixels make up a part of the story, there's a reason why Canon's Mark 5D III crushes other cameras that have MUCH higher Megapixel counts.

TFlops was a dumb marketing gimmick that Microsoft introduced with Scorpio, unfortunately, it's been latched on to as the end all be all of the performance. This couldn't be further from the truth.

Teraflops are a marketing gimmick? Now I've heard everything LOL. It's literally how computers work. Before teraflops we measured in gigaflops and before that megaflops. You know what the next gimmick is? Petaflops! You heard it here first, it will be the marketing speech of the future!

Your camera comparison is not remotely the same thing since the differences there are physical differences that have nothing to do with megapixels at all. If your Canon had higher megapixels pictures would look even better.
 

zombiejames

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Oct 25, 2017
11,921
The real question is why are TFs so crucial to hardcore gamers and console fanatics while actual graphics programmer don't ever use it as a metric for... anything?
It's the modern day equivalent of the bit wars of the 90s. TFLOPS are far, far more accurate than bits ever were, but we're pretty much reaching that point where it's not the be-all, end-all when it comes to judging an entire system.
 

Deleted member 18161

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In the most basic terms a teraflop is shorthand and a good general measurement of a GPU's peak ability to render pixels.

A 12 tflop GPU will always be able to render more native pixels in a game than a 10 tflop GPU especially if both systems have a very similar CPU / RAM set up / clock speeds.*

*I'm buying a PS5 at launch.
 
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Convasse

Convasse

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Teraflops are a marketing gimmick? Now I've heard everything LOL. It's literally how computers work. Before teraflops we measured in gigaflops and before that megaflops. You know what the next gimmick is? Petaflops! You heard it here first, it will be the marketing speech of the future!

Your camera comparison is not remotely the same thing since the differences there are physical differences that have nothing to do with megapixels at all. If your Canon had higher megapixels pictures would look even better.
Well said, this needs to be pointed out. FLOP/S are objective mathematical measures. My concern is that people are either ignorantly or maliciously pushing this narrative that FLOP/S are unimportant and just became a big deal for console wars. That's false.

OP..

XSX is 12.155 TF
PS5 is 10.28 TF

but hey whose counting..
I was trying to keep things simple with just 3 significant digits. Losing a couple billion FLOP/S doesn't detract from the point being made lol
 
Oct 27, 2017
9,420
Well said, this needs to be pointed out. FLOP/S are objective mathematical measures. My concern is that people are either ignorantly or maliciously pushing this narrative that FLOP/S are unimportant and just became a big deal for console wars. That's false.


I was trying to keep things simple with just 3 significant digits. Losing a couple billion FLOP/S doesn't detract from the point being made lol
The actual number is 9.2 boosted to 10.2 so who knows where it lands.
 

vivftp

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Oct 29, 2017
19,754
Hey Ricky Ricardo were you snooping around in my mind earlier when I was thinking about creating a thread where knowledgeable people could clarify the topic of the fast and narrow vs. slow and wide approaches and the benefits of each? Great write-up, thanks :)

Gonna be interesting to see the results once we finally get some side by side comparisons of games on both boxes as well as games purpose built to take full advantage of each platform.
 

vivftp

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Oct 29, 2017
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The introduction of Teraflop's into gaming reminds me of the rush for Megapixels.

While Megapixels make up a part of the story, there's a reason why Canon's Mark 5D III crushes other cameras that have MUCH higher Megapixel counts.

TFlops was a dumb marketing gimmick that Microsoft introduced with Scorpio, unfortunately, it's been latched on to as the end all be all of the performance. This couldn't be further from the truth.

Hmm, what metric or group of metrics do you think should be looked at for those who do wish to perform comparisons? Or is this a situation where the complete package of each solution has to be analyzed on its own merit to get a clear picture of performance, and only then can the comparisons be made?

So GPU, RAM, API, CPU, SSD, TFLOPS, WTFBBQ... all these motherfucking acronyms, do we truly need to see everything working together to get a realistic idea of what these boxes can do? Based on seeing other people talk about it I was under the impression that TFLOPS are decent metric for performance, but not the be-all, end-all as there can be many more factors involved in deriving real world performance. That seems to be a hot topic at the moment with people trying to figure out the whole fast/narrow vs.slow/wide approaches. The problem I think is that very few people on this forum (relatively speaking) probably know what they're actually talking about (I'm definitely not one of them! lol) so the rest of us are trying to muddle our way through all of this info to try and gain a better understanding from those relatively few people. Unfortunately there's a buttload of console warring going on, which for the most part is shutting down any real discussion on the subject so it's damn near impossible for us dummies to have a proper discussion. I'm glad the OP put together an informative post like this to help us out a bit :)
 
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Convasse

Convasse

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The actual number is 9.2 boosted to 10.2 so who knows where it lands.
I've seen no proof of this yet, so I won't speculate about it, but I am interested in seeing how variable CPU and GPU clocks play out under load.

Hey Ricky Ricardo were you snooping around in my mind earlier when I was thinking about creating a thread where knowledgeable people could clarify the topic of the fast and narrow vs. slow and wide approaches and the benefits of each? Great write-up, thanks :)

Gonna be interesting to see the results once we finally get some side by side comparisons of games on both boxes as well as games purpose built to take full advantage of each platform.
About that ...
its_classified_barack_obama.gif
 

RowdyReverb

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Oct 25, 2017
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I think just as people are sleeping on the nuances of the teraflop difference and looking only at the numbers, people are also looking at the SSD speed difference numbers and sleeping on the Velocity Architecture and specifically Sampler Feedback Streaming in XSX.
 

HebrewHammer

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Oct 27, 2017
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Every single generation, we make the same mistake.

On-paper specs are irrelevant.

It's 1) THE GAMES and 2) EASE OF USE AND FLEXIBILITY for devs.
 

Horp

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Nov 16, 2017
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Every single generation, we make the same mistake.

On-paper specs are irrelevant.

It's 1) THE GAMES and 2) EASE OF USE AND FLEXIBILITY for devs.
Why do you say this?
Take the current gen. Standard has been 1080p vs 900p and more stable framerate for Ps4.
Because of the on-paper specs.
Ofc this only applies to multiplats, but thats a huge chunk of all games.
The difference will not be as striking for this gen (could mathematically be an even bigger difference but the visual difference becomes less apparent with higher res).
 

panda-zebra

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Oct 28, 2017
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Assume that each worker at Factories X and P is capable of packing 2 boxes per shipment (instructions per clock). Factory P's workers pack those shipments faster (2.23 GHz clock speed) while Factory X's shipment processing speed is slower (1.825 GHz clock speed). A downside to Factory P's speed is that the workers move so quickly, there may be moments of productivity dips (variable frequency) where Factory X's workers have a more standard pace (locked frequency).
Worth mentioning that the gaffer at factory P said the larger your workforce, the harder it is to manage your staff and keep them all busy, all the time. (This factory analogy really works, lol.)

Variable frequency wouldn't necessarily be a productivity dip though, it'd depend on what was being produced. It'd be more akin to having a mobile, multi-skilled workforce that can perform both the tasks of production and packaging when required, to ensure the business as a whole performs at peak capacity. The full workforce can be at peak staffing levels in both areas simultaneously, it's all dependent on what's being asked of them in any instance. But yes, assembling some components requires the staff to work harder than normal and they need a helping hand, so they can ask for help from the other section of workers. It's an efficient factory that works at or near capacity inherently.
 

Deleted member 12790

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In the most basic terms a teraflop is shorthand and a good general measurement of a GPU's peak ability to render pixels.

A 12 tflop GPU will always be able to render more native pixels in a game than a 10 tflop GPU especially if both systems have a very similar CPU / RAM set up / clock speeds.*

*I'm buying a PS5 at launch.

Teraflops have absolutely nothing to do with rasterization or a measurement of pixel throughput. You can put pixels on the screen without doing a single floating point calculation, in fact. Pixel throughput is an entirely separate bottleneck that teraflops doesn't measure at all, which is part of the reason why teraflops are a poor metric to begin with.

A teraflop is nothing more than a mathematical operation on a non-whole number. You can, for example, perform rasterization entirely with fixed point arithmetic, i.e. 0 teraflops. And in fact there are many, many reasons why one would want to do that. I.E. a buffer atlas for point-sampled lookup.
 

Deleted member 18161

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Teraflops have absolutely nothing to do with rasterization or a measurement of pixel throughput. You can put pixels on the screen without doing a single floating point calculation, in fact. Pixel throughput is an entirely separate bottleneck that teraflops doesn't measure at all, which is part of the reason why teraflops are a poor metric to begin with.

A teraflop is nothing more than a mathematical operation on a non-whole number. You can, for example, perform rasterization entirely with fixed point arithmetic, i.e. 0 teraflops. And in fact there are many, many reasons why one would want to do that. I.E. a buffer atlas for point-sampled lookup.

And yet from PS3/360 to Wii U to PS4/XB1 to Switch to PS4 Pro to XB1X the average native rendering resolutions directly scale with Tflop count.
 

Deleted member 12790

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And yet from PS3/360 to Wii U to PS4/XB1 to Switch to PS4 Pro to XB1X the average native rendering resolutions directly scale with Tflop count.

Native rendering resolution is a function of memory available.

Again, a FLOP is literally nothing more than a mathematical operation on a non-whole number. Pixels are excusively the domain of integers, entirely whole numbers. Floating point operations have absolutely nothing to do with pixel throughput.
 

Horp

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Native rendering resolution is a function of memory available.

Again, a FLOP is literally nothing more than a mathematical operation on a non-whole number. Pixels are excusively the domain of integers, entirely whole numbers. Floating point operations have absolutely nothing to do with pixel throughput.
This is word salad level stuff. Expected more from a dev.
 

Deleted member 12790

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I work as a graphics optimization engineer. Used to work at Microsoft in that role. This topic is not one I struggle with.
Either you're doing some kind of poetry or you're just flailing.

You're struggling mightily to get any sort of point across, actually. You aren't really saying anything. What exactly is 'word salady' about my post? You're so offended by it, and have made two swiping posts about how you don't struggle, but you're communicating extremely poorly. Perhaps instead of talking about how you are a "graphics optimizing engineer" you demonstrate it?
 

19thCenturyFox

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It's the same GPU architecture, by the same manufacturer bound by the same thermal limitations. There is nothing wrong with comparing Teraflops or comparing the CPU speeds of Series X and PS5, in fact those are the things that make the most sense to compare. It's also inaccurate to say that Teraflops don't matter, they do, they just don't tell the whole story.
 

Horp

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Nov 16, 2017
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You're struggling mightily to get any sort of point across, actually. You aren't really saying anything. What exactly is 'word salady' about my post? You're so offended by it, and have made two swiping posts about how you don't struggle, but you're communicating extremely poorly. Perhaps instead of talking about how you are a "graphics optimizing engineer" you demonstrate it?
Pixels are rendered using pixel shaders. Each pixel is processed with a small program that runs on the GPU. In any normal case, that program will do some kind of calculation. A normal one is a texture lookup or some kind of interpolation. That will of course involve floating point numbers. Therefor, FLOPS have everything to do with pixel throughput. Most architectures these days doesn't even support fixed point math; instead that is done using floating point numbers behind the scenes (some archs still do however).
FLOPS are perhaps the best indicator we have of raw throughput of "graphics"; where graphics in this case refers to vertex shaders, geometry shaders, pixel shaders or the new mesh shaders (which I am not very familiar with yet). Off course, higher clock speed with a lower CU count is not necesarily equivalent to the reverse, so FLOPS doesn't say everything.
 

Gemüsepizza

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Oct 26, 2017
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I just need to look at the two paragraphs below, and I know that this not a neutral explanation of the TF concept. You overemphasize the importance of the number of shading units, downplay the importance of clocks, and just can't help yourself to put in a dig at the PS5's variable clock with a false equivalency. Also you fail to explain the effect of other parts of the GPU, which puts the importance of TF in a context. Then you start a defense of the Xbox design approach, linking two articles from Xbox.com, highlighting the optimizations Microsoft engineers have done and how great Microsoft worked together with AMD. Basically your message is, TFs are really, really important, meanwhile actual developers on social media cringe about all the discussion. Your topic does nothing to explain this discrepancy.

A different picture begins to form now. We are looking at a 36% shading gulf between the two console GPUs. Think of this situation as two factories: Factory X has 3,300 workers, Factory P has 2,300 workers. Factory X is going to do more work. Obviously. We are in agreement there. It's obvious. Right? Just to reiterate, you cannot magically make up for 1,000 missing workers. These numbers cannot lie.

Assume that each worker at Factories X and P is capable of packing 2 boxes per shipment (instructions per clock). Factory P's workers pack those shipments faster (2.23 GHz clock speed) while Factory X's shipment processing speed is slower (1.825 GHz clock speed). A downside to Factory P's speed is that the workers move so quickly, there may be moments of productivity dips (variable frequency) where Factory X's workers have a more standard pace (locked frequency).
 

Deleted member 61469

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I just need to look at the two paragraphs below, and I know that this not a neutral explanation of the TF concept. You overemphasize the importance of the number of shading units, downplay the importance of clocks, and just can't help yourself to put in a dig at the PS5's variable clock with a false equivalency. Also you fail to explain the effect of other parts of the GPU, which puts the importance of TF in a context. Then you start a defense of the Xbox design approach, linking two articles from Xbox.com, highlighting the optimizations Microsoft engineers have done and how great Microsoft worked together with AMD. Basically your message is, TFs are really, really important, meanwhile actual developers on social media cringe about all the discussion. Your topic does nothing to explain this discrepancy.

Not really. I don't know why this has to be black or white. Are TF the only useful metric? No one is saying that. They are however a useful indicator for performance. That is probably why cerny felt the need to point out that GCN flops != RDNA2 flops.
 
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Convasse

Convasse

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I just need to look at the two paragraphs below, and I know that this not a neutral explanation of the TF concept. You overemphasize the importance of the number of shading units, downplay the importance of clocks, and just can't help yourself to put in a dig at the PS5's variable clock with a false equivalency. Also you fail to explain the effect of other parts of the GPU, which puts the importance of TF in a context. Then you start a defense of the Xbox design approach, linking two articles from Xbox.com, highlighting the optimizations Microsoft engineers have done and how great Microsoft worked together with AMD. Basically your message is, TFs are really, really important, meanwhile actual developers on social media cringe about all the discussion. Your topic does nothing to explain this discrepancy.
"You overemphasize the importance of the number of shading units" - No, I don't. Every new GPU architecture from AMD and NVIDIA has increased shading units from predecessor to successor, i.e. 1070 (1920 shaders) to 2070 (2304 shaders). That is important for improving performance along with the hardware changes and software optimizations made by the companies. A gap in shading units doesn't disappear, we have seen this in action for years, with PS4 and XB1.

"Downplay the importance of clocks" - Absurd clock speeds cause increased heat. Heat shortens the life of electronic components and increase the risk of throttling. That is computer science, not downplay. Overclocking ALWAYS comes with the caveat, "twice as bright for half as long."

"Just can't help yourself to put in a dig at the PS5's variable clock with a false equivalency" - I am simply using the information that Cerny gave during his presentation. CPU and GPU can't operate at max simultaneously and to claw back some power usage, there will be more noticable performance dips than if it was not variable. We'll see how this looks in practice, but there's nothing false about that statement. Factory P moves more quickly, with a larger penalty than Factory X does.

"Also you fail to explain the effect of other parts of the GPU, which puts the importance of TF in a context. " - ROP and TMU information for RDNA2 is still pending, hence why they aren't mentioned in detail. They are also not directly related to the teraflop formula, which was spelled out clearly in the post.

"Then you start a defense of the Xbox design approach, linking two articles from Xbox.com, highlighting the optimizations Microsoft engineers have done and how great Microsoft worked together with AMD." - I specifically mentioned this because there was/is a narrative forming that Xbox Series X will simply brute force its workload when it is clear from a basic reading of the text that there is nuance engineered into the machine at a software and hardware level. An assertion of fact is not the same as a defense. We only need look at the PC market to see what brute force truly looks like. The 2080 Ti has 4352 shaders, 272 TMU, and 88 ROP. It outperforms everything else on the market and the RTX 3080 Ti will do the same.

"Basically your message is, TFs are really, really important, meanwhile actual developers on social media cringe about all the discussion." - I made it very clear that teraflops are a function and that the components of the function are just as important as the function itself.
 
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Cloud-Strife

Alt-Account
Banned
Sep 27, 2019
3,140
SSD tech will rule the next gen.. Teraflops will just mean a little more detail and a few more reflections.
 

Horp

Member
Nov 16, 2017
3,709
SSD tech will rule the next gen.. Teraflops will just mean a little more detail and a few more reflections.
SSD does nothing for any game that can fit into the RAM, or doesn't need asset streaming faster than what the Xbox allows. I.e most games.
More flops helps any game. All games (that aim for any kind of fidelity) start out unoptimized and sluggish, then they are optimized to fit into the performance profile of the device. More flops means fewer compromises, and higher fidelity.