What's your opinion on film critics who discuss (and praise) movies like Birth of a Nation, Gone With the Wind, Triumph of the Will, etc?
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Technical Warning for Ion Fury on Xbox One (all consoles?)
- Thread starter Xater
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User Banned (1 Week): Rhetoric rationalizing bigotry
Keep up the good work, John. I know it's hard to read shit like this when it's aimed to you for nothing. But don't let this get to you. The concept of separating art from politics can be tough for some people, but the best course of action is just to ignore them.
I don't think anybody here wants you to feel bad, at least that was not my intention.
I guess Youtube and this place can be full of negativity but I'd assume most people would be happy with maybe a short disclaimer distancing yourself from the views of the Devs.
At least in my opinion, it's perfectly valid to enjoy and discuss a product from a questionable artist if that's made clear upfront so that the... Questionable part of the audience doesn't get the wrong impression. Just like most good Lovecraft adaptions have a small blurb about his racist views.
I guess there are always people that are not satisfied with that but I assume those are in the minority. I loved your video on Ion Fury because I find the tech incredibly interesting but I would enjoy it more if I'd know you don't agree with the Devs on their transphobic stuff. That's basically all.
Please don't stress yourself too much over that.
(And generally a bug thank you for all the stuff you guys do at DF. I never replied to you personally as I feel you probably get enough messages all the time but well XD)
I find those comments about separating the art from the artist so f*****g insulting for the people that were targeted by the devs stupid comments. They scream "I'm not affected so I don't care". I know in any product or service someone down the line is crooked but once you are aware of it, shutting your eyes or mouth is irresponsible. The least you can do is let people know about it and be vocal.
who is talking about Birth of a Nation in 2020 and not spending 90% of the conversation around the controversial nature of the film? That's a false equivalency, if anything it's making an argument that you can talk about problematic art, but you should not ignore the problematic aspects.
This thread makes me so frustrated with this place.
If you watch John's content or ever read his posts there should be ONE conclusion you jump to from him talking about Ion Fury. It's a build engine game in 2020 on modern platforms, and he finds that fascinating.
Jumping to the accusations or insinuations that because he likes a game or makes content about something with problematic people involved means he endorses that or doesn't care about it is short-sided and not related to the conversation at all. This thread isn't even about that shit, it's about the technical performance of the game and John came in to talk about *that*.
I hate how it feels like every thread on this board can feel like a minefield where someone is just waiting for the chance to start tearing anyone down at any minute over something barely related to what they're even talking about.
John's a great person, this behavior drives people away from this board.
If you watch John's content or ever read his posts there should be ONE conclusion you jump to from him talking about Ion Fury. It's a build engine game in 2020 on modern platforms, and he finds that fascinating.
Jumping to the accusations or insinuations that because he likes a game or makes content about something with problematic people involved means he endorses that or doesn't care about it is short-sided and not related to the conversation at all. This thread isn't even about that shit, it's about the technical performance of the game and John came in to talk about *that*.
I hate how it feels like every thread on this board can feel like a minefield where someone is just waiting for the chance to start tearing anyone down at any minute over something barely related to what they're even talking about.
John's a great person, this behavior drives people away from this board.
Legit thought that the "technical warning" in the thread title was referring to this.
I bought this game during early access, but had i known of the devs transphobia i would have never gave the devs any of my money. I think the least Dark can do is provide a disclaimer for those that are not aware.
Turns out it's very possible to be a regular on the internet and knowledgeable about what's going on in the games industry and not catch all of the stupid shit people say from time to time. I really don't agree that talking about games or liking games is an endorsement of every view that developer has for this very reason.
I also didn't know any of this stuff about Ion Fury or its developers. It's a shame, but maybe we shouldn't default to attacking people about stuff like this because they might not know it either.
Also bear in mind that not all of us follow every single developer we like on every single social media platform, and you cannot expect every single Era member to be aware of every little thing that someone says, good or bad.
This thread is the first I've heard about any of this, and that's probably true for most of us.
This thread is the first I've heard about any of this, and that's probably true for most of us.
I love how the callouts in these threads are always phrased like "aren't these the guys who said X?" or "isn't this person racist?". You obviously already know the answer because you wouldn't have brought it up otherwise, and if you truly don't know then why would you make an accusation that heavy without doing your homework first?
Just to play devil's advocate here, but where is the line drawn on this? Are Valve, Sony, Microsoft and Nintendo all making the same statement by allowing the game on their respective platforms? I don't know the answer.
They might if enough of the media calls out the developers for being homophobic bigots to the point where more people know and question why the platform holders are hosting their products.
This is pleasing to read, thanks for all your hard work! I was hoping you'd do a video because I was wanting to check the game out, but wasn't sure if I should get it on Switch or Xbox.
You're an awesome, genuine dude who makes great, deep content on DF and a great poster on this site, it would be a shame to lose you. I think you are being really hard on yourself; I believe what people want are just heads up about asshole devs and their horrific views (if they have any) if you're going to praise their game.
For example, this is my first time hearing about this from the Ion Fury devs, and from your videos I got really excited about the game and was planning on purchasing it. Being a minority and a strong LGBTQ supporter, it would have gone against everything I believe to buy a product from such people. Of course you may not have known yourself, but perhaps moving forward you can mention such a disclaimer.
These are are just tough, hateful times, and vulnerable populations always feel attacked without any true defense. Sometimes boycotting is all we can do.
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I think the awful views of the developer is a discussion worth having, but it shouldn't spring out from sudden personal attacks. It's possible to bring subjects up in a more considerate manner, and I'm sure that will lead to a better discussion and understanding.
There's a lot of people who seem to always read the worst between the lines, even if there's nothing there. It leads to, as John calls is, walking a tightrope for many that don't want to upset anyone.
As for how folks should cover this game, I think a mention of the issue is a must. You can definitely talk about the good, but then it's important to also mention the bad.
No coverage at all can lead to issues not seeing the light of day, or being forgotten. And that isn't right either.
The biggest problem with era is that derailing is allowed. If you want to discuss what someone involved in the development of a game said, then make a thread about it.
User Banned (1 Month) Dismissing bigotry
Why are you guys picking on Dark so bad? DF are huge PC enthusiasts. And this game is significant for us for a couple of reasons. It's a damn good game and it's a BUILD engine game in 2019! it's interesting seeing what they were able to do from a technical perspective with such an old engine.
If you don't want to support the game due to devs views that's good for you and you have your right to do that. But don't go telling dark or anyone how they should handle their job!
Besides if era was to be consistent, several games from Japanese darlings should not be discussed here.
Keep up the good work dark!!
If you don't want to support the game due to devs views that's good for you and you have your right to do that. But don't go telling dark or anyone how they should handle their job!
Besides if era was to be consistent, several games from Japanese darlings should not be discussed here.
Keep up the good work dark!!
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User Banned (3 Months): Downplaying bigotry, misrepresenting moderation; prior serious ban for dismissing sexism
If you ever glance at OT or threads like the Women's Designs thread, you'll realize that Era is basically that. You can't get around discussing something here without the ancillary details being brought up and expanded as if they're what the game is all about. A content creator should be allowed to produce content without a forum thinking that it means a full endorsement of the messaging issues of a game. There's a reason that many, many devs and creators who were here when Era started have left.
I don't know about the console versions but I'm still waiting a patch for the PC version since the frame pacing is terrible, and I bought the game on last black friday so yeah, the game have issues even on PC.
I hope the patch will be out soon on PC too so I can finally play it ^^
You shouldn't be feeling like complete shit. Don't forget that you are on the internet where random people are just being shitty for no reason except to make you feel bad (generally speaking). What (apperently) happened is that you talked about something you love and other people called you out because you didn't do something they would have liked you to do (calling the devs out) and then accuse you to don't care about this issue. Which isn't true - you know this and shouldn't let this get to you. You would probably rather talk about the games (technical and gameplay wise) itself than the stuff surrounding them - and that's fine.
Most people love what you and the rest of the team are doing. Just look at how many subs the channel gained and you keep getting more and the content you created obviously is part of that.
Sure, a disclaimer wouldn't do any harm (quite the opposite) but I also believe that everybody should generally do their own research before buying games and not make anyone else responsible if they are unable to. Especially about stuff that you deeply care about. If people can find out if a game runs at 60fps on Xbox One X, they can sure find out if the devs or pubs are shitheads.
So the bigotry is also on full display in the game?
I played the demo on pc a while back and feel really dumb now that I didn't notice any of it.
There's a certain value in derails as seen in this very thread, where multiple people didn't know of the transphobia issue until it was brought up here. However, judging by the many staff posts in THQ topics, I'm pretty sure the guideline for these threads is supposed to be "don't attack posters for bringing up the issue and don't attack posters who choose to play the game anyway".
The user I was responding to has an issue with the game being discussed, period. The idea that promoting a product equates to you either supporting a creator's views or not caring about their views is completely ridiculous. If I promote a smartphone, do I support or not care about slave labor if I don't explicitly point it out? If dark1x chooses to discuss the problematic aspects of Ion Fury, that's fantastic (I'd love to see that, in fact), but to shame him if he doesn't is incredibly pathetic, especially when you consider Jon's character. We've all been here long enough to know he is nothing but a classy, kind hearted individual.
People should decide themselves if they can separate game and creator. I'd like to learn more about game tech.
Put a disclaimer about situation.
Any criticism can be interpreted as telling the creator how to do their job. That's beside the point.
Dark1x' videos are infotainment pieces. In his coverage, the (for me) most important piece of information about the game is absent, and his silence regarding this issue didn't help. In no way is this a non-salvageable issue. Now we definitely know he is aware of the problem, so he can decide if and how he wants to communicate it to his viewers. Based on this, people are free to agree or disagree with him and accordingly watch / don't watch his content.
There's also value in being able to discuss the topic at hand. If you can technically derail every thread about every game because someone involved in its production said something somewhere you may as well close gaming side at that point.
I did address that in another post, but you're right that I probably 'jumped the gun'.
I remembered it being mentioned quite a lot in discussion of John's "top games of 2019" video here, along with there being a 40-page topic on the devs, so I (wrongly) assumed that Dark1x must also have seen it - and I do want to apologize for that.
Not being familiar with those specific examples, I would say that things are complicated and you have to use your own judgement.
But these are all old works where their creators are not going to profit from anyone viewing them today, there are surely easy options to watch those films without anyone involved seeing a cent (buying used, or borrowing from a library), and I doubt that any discussion of them is going to ignore their controversial elements.
Viewing those movies is not going to help keep a studio afloat and enable them to put more hatred into the world, like buying an indie game where they keep 70% of the sale does. I find it difficult to see how anyone can "separate the art from the artist" when it involves direct financial compensation.
I think it's a lot easier for a smaller media outlet to say "we are choosing not to cover this game because of statements made by the development team" than a platform holder to deny access to a game if they don't have specific content guidelines barring it from the service.
But the platform holders should be held accountable, and those guidelines should be in place. Even if all that ends up happening is that the game is pulled from sale for a few days while that content is removed - it's a start.
I'm sure that a lot of people didn't know. It doesn't make you a bad person for having bought or even enjoyed the game if you had no idea about it - so long as it's not those specific elements about it that you liked.
But it's different if someone was aware of the developer's statements, and decided to buy the game anyway because those issues didn't affect them directly or they don't care.
You didn't do anything wrong buddy
Some of you guys need to calm down jesus
I've got a trans relative who recommended the game to me shortly after the controversy hit; she hadn't heard anything about it. Iirc, it's just a couple easter eggs, and the controversy is mainly around how the devs responded to complaints.
If dark1x wants to quit posting because of this, that's understandable. Keep on posting those videos though, bro! Somebody else will repost them here. You can still get the views, just minus the discussion from the "typical Era" person that most of this thread seems to dislike.
Skippable rant ahead...
All I know is if the Ion Fury devs were sneaking in little jokes something anti-black, I'd be totally against ANY signal boosting.
Don't care if its to break down the graphics or whatever, it would ruin the game and its discussion for me.
That's because I am black though, it's coded in me to be sensitive towards that.
Since these devs "only" had anti-trans and anti-gay stuff in their game... and I'm none of those, I feel I have less of a voice in the matter.
Doesn't mean I'm detached from the issue, still bugs me... I'm not a fan of "Say/do something offensive and then double-down" like these devs did.
That being said, I'd understand if somebody wanted me to explain my stance/decision making.
It would be as easy as saying "I dont support what they said, but since my job is to break down technical aspects of games, thats what I will do. My making a video breakdown is not an endorsement of anti-gay or anti-trans views in any way." Maybe that's not easy... But I'd prefer that to the opposite of "Oh wow, I cant make videos about my favorite things anymore, I'm a victim and this place is mean"
It's clear people need to chill with how they accuse and insinuate things, but on the flip side we should understand why people are bringing these concerns up so we can address them and not get our threads derailed. Why scoff at somebody who wants you to be clear that "I Like making videos about this game, I do not support the statements the developers have made, and apologize if anybody sees this as signal boosting"
Still theoretically if they said crude anti-black jokes like "oh monkey = black man", I'd have no problem lambasting somebody who signal boosts them. Just in context.
Skippable rant ahead...
All I know is if the Ion Fury devs were sneaking in little jokes something anti-black, I'd be totally against ANY signal boosting.
Don't care if its to break down the graphics or whatever, it would ruin the game and its discussion for me.
That's because I am black though, it's coded in me to be sensitive towards that.
Since these devs "only" had anti-trans and anti-gay stuff in their game... and I'm none of those, I feel I have less of a voice in the matter.
Doesn't mean I'm detached from the issue, still bugs me... I'm not a fan of "Say/do something offensive and then double-down" like these devs did.
That being said, I'd understand if somebody wanted me to explain my stance/decision making.
It would be as easy as saying "I dont support what they said, but since my job is to break down technical aspects of games, thats what I will do. My making a video breakdown is not an endorsement of anti-gay or anti-trans views in any way." Maybe that's not easy... But I'd prefer that to the opposite of "Oh wow, I cant make videos about my favorite things anymore, I'm a victim and this place is mean"
It's clear people need to chill with how they accuse and insinuate things, but on the flip side we should understand why people are bringing these concerns up so we can address them and not get our threads derailed. Why scoff at somebody who wants you to be clear that "I Like making videos about this game, I do not support the statements the developers have made, and apologize if anybody sees this as signal boosting"
Still theoretically if they said crude anti-black jokes like "oh monkey = black man", I'd have no problem lambasting somebody who signal boosts them. Just in context.
Oh well I feel less dumb since its very possible I missed them or they are not even in the demo but that's still shitty to what since I actually enjoyed the demo.
I saw something on Reddit indicating that they will add Invert Y axis in a patch. Will be out within 2 weeks. So weird to omit that at launch. It's not the first game to do that either. I also saw that frame hiccup as well on my Switch.
Dude, homophobia and transphobia are not political views.
Dark1x, you're a good dude and a great poster. And you have been for many years here on Era and on GAF before that.
I hope you stick around so we have you guys to nitpick your DF videos with!
Dark1x I, like many others on this forum, love your work and hope to see it continue. Seeing a new DF Retro is always a highlight of my week!
As someone of influence in the media (I don't know whether you'd consider yourself a journalist, but I wouldn't argue with you if you did!), I think you can elevate your work by mentioning the transphobic views espoused by the developers in their game. It's not about you being a bad person for not mentioning it previously - it's about an opportunity to be a better one by calling out the issue.
I think it's OK if you don't feel personally qualified to weigh in on the issue. Maybe you can reach out to some other Eurogamer folks who cover that space? Or some folks in the larger games community? There are many talented transgender games journalists who might be able to help you craft a short disclaimer or a run down about the issue that you can include in your next video covering this game.
Edit: Also, please don't leave Era! Join in the conversation. By stating that you think the devs are awful for their transphobic jokes, you took a great first step in letting the rest of us know that you don't approve of their behavior and that you're not willing to stay completely silent about it. Let us know how you feel John!
To EVERYONE on this forum who thinks you can separate politics from video games (or anything), wake up. Ion Fury isn't just a case of of a developer's politics divorced from the game, either: remember that this issue began because the developers left a transphobic joke in the game and then doubled down on keeping it in after it was discovered.
As someone of influence in the media (I don't know whether you'd consider yourself a journalist, but I wouldn't argue with you if you did!), I think you can elevate your work by mentioning the transphobic views espoused by the developers in their game. It's not about you being a bad person for not mentioning it previously - it's about an opportunity to be a better one by calling out the issue.
I think it's OK if you don't feel personally qualified to weigh in on the issue. Maybe you can reach out to some other Eurogamer folks who cover that space? Or some folks in the larger games community? There are many talented transgender games journalists who might be able to help you craft a short disclaimer or a run down about the issue that you can include in your next video covering this game.
Edit: Also, please don't leave Era! Join in the conversation. By stating that you think the devs are awful for their transphobic jokes, you took a great first step in letting the rest of us know that you don't approve of their behavior and that you're not willing to stay completely silent about it. Let us know how you feel John!
To EVERYONE on this forum who thinks you can separate politics from video games (or anything), wake up. Ion Fury isn't just a case of of a developer's politics divorced from the game, either: remember that this issue began because the developers left a transphobic joke in the game and then doubled down on keeping it in after it was discovered.
They didn't remove any of the offensive stuff in the PC version.
What happened is when all the bigoted content came to light, their publisher 3D Realms said that the offensive content would be removed and they didn't know about it and don't condone it.
Then the Discord chats with the developers spewing tons of bigoted bullshit came out, and in response the developers said they aren't removing any content.
Their publisher 3D Realms then put out a statement saying none of the bigoted material was being removed and they support the developers.
It was incredibly disheartening.
Kinda strange knowing that the engine itself is at least 25 years old and doesn't require much ram of cpu. That's one of the reasons Duke 3D is almost on all device known to mankind.
This is an adjusted version, I know, bit that should not make this suddenly thousands times more difficult.
Duke 3D was running 60fps on Vita by example. In core the same engine.
So it's even worse and people are saying "separate the art from the artist" bullshit
From the responses you'd think people had burned Dark's house down, not that like two people had called his support problematic.
If you want to discuss games with NO POLITICS ALLOWED there's a shitty forum for that.
If you want to discuss games with NO POLITICS ALLOWED there's a shitty forum for that.
