Tech Is Splitting the U.S. Work Force in Two (NYT)

[entremet]

Tech Is Splitting the U.S. Work Force in Two
https://nyti.ms/2DSI2KZ?smid=nytcore-ios-share

Very good article on how tech is creating a very well paid subsection of the job sector.

Problem is tech companies don't create as much jobs as other industries, which make the backbone of the US job market.

Using this point of view, topics like poor wage growth makes more sense.

PHOENIX — It's hard to miss the dogged technological ambition pervading this sprawling desert metropolis.

There's Intel's $7 billion, seven-nanometer chip plant going up in Chandler. In Scottsdale, Axon, the maker of the Taser, is hungrily snatching talent from Silicon Valley as it embraces automation to keep up with growing demand.

Start-ups in fields as varied as autonomous drones and blockchain are flocking to the area, drawn in large part by light regulation and tax incentives. Arizona State University is furiously churning out engineers.

And yet for all its success in drawling and nurturing firms on the technological frontier, Phoenix cannot escape the uncomfortable pattern taking shape across the American economy: Despite all its shiny new high-tech businesses, the vast majority of new jobs are in workaday service industries, like health care, hospitality, retail and building services, where pay is mediocre.

The forecast of an America where robots do all the work while humans live off some yet-to-be-invented welfare program may be a Silicon Valley pipe dream. But automation is changing the nature of work, flushing workers without a college degree out of productive industries, like manufacturing and high-tech services, and into tasks with meager wages and no prospect for advancement

 

[Deleted member 23850]

The tech industry definitely needs am ethical reconstruction. I love technology as much as the next guy, but with the way the industry is now, its many economic spillover effects (gentrification, rising housing prices, disparaging differences between wealth) are bad.

 

[Viewt]

The tech industry definitely needs am ethical reconstruction. I love technology as much as the next guy, but with the way the industry is now, its many economic spillover effects (gentrification, rising housing prices, disparaging differences between wealth) are bad.

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As someone who works in tech, I agree. It's provided me with a good life, but there's a TON of gatekeeping and there's a lot of wildly unethical shit that goes down in companies of all stripes and sizes (though start-ups are the worst offenders, BY FAR).

There's also the clear fact that a lot of the bigger companies have totally bilked the cities they operate it with ridiculous, unsustainable tax incentives. Amazon HQ2 threw a spotlight on it, but it's been going on for a long, long time and it sucks.

 

[feline fury]

I'm not sure why the healthcare industry is lumped in with the rest of those "mediocre" paying industries with no advancement prospects

 

[finalflame]

In before the deluge of thinly veiled envious posts about tech employees and the industry.

 

[Deleted member 23850]

There's also the clear fact that a lot of the bigger companies have totally bilked the cities they operate it with ridiculous, unsustainable tax incentives. Amazon HQ2 threw a spotlight on it, but it's been going on for a long, long time and it sucks.

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I loathe the whole tax incentive thing with cities too. Great cities like Austin and San Francisco have been fucked hard by these damn tax breaks.

 

[ss1]

As someone who works in AI, I am very conscious of the fact that the work I am doing will automate the jobs of people out of existence. However, in the end of the day I still need to make a living and we can't wish away automation.

 

[Ether_Snake]

This is an overpopulation problem. Not saying people need to disappear, but the actions that could mitigate or eliminate the issues that come with increased automation and increased education levels needed are much easier to take in a smaller more cohesive population. Big populations will be unable to deal with this, leading to an erosion of democracy and independence movements in an attempt to find solutions.

 

[entremet]

I'm not sure why the healthcare industry is lumped in with the rest of those "mediocre" paying industries with no advancement prospects

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Article addresses that. There are high paying jobs there obviously, but more jobs are generated in the lower paying roles.

 

[SaveWeyard]

The larger question we must ask ourselves: should livelihood be tied to work?

 

[Cymbal Head]

I've been saying this for years: giglocks and apploi

 

[onyx]

Well I went into tech for the money because the future was clear in the early 2000s. I blame Cities for giving into the tax incentives to bring these companies in. They could use those funds to offer free college and/or healthcare instead.

The tech industry is just exposing problems that existed already and automation is going to make things worst.

 

[entremet]

Well I went into tech for the money because the future was clear in the early 2000s. I blame Cities for giving into the tax incentives to bring these companies in. They could use those funds to offer free college and/or healthcare instead.

The tech industry is just exposing problems that existed already and automation is going to make things worst.

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I'm in tech myself. I lucked into it, though.

 

[Deleted member 2226]

The tech industry definitely needs am ethical reconstruction. I love technology as much as the next guy, but with the way the industry is now, its many economic spillover effects (gentrification, rising housing prices, disparaging differences between wealth) are bad.

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I don't see how an industry gets an "ethical reconstruction". It's up to the voters and their reps to stop bending over backwards to draw them to their cities.

Stuff like gentrification and the wealth gap have nothing to do with the tech sector specifically, they're symptoms of other issues (bad urban policies, lack of progressive taxation, ineffective government oversight.)

 

[ezrarh]

Article addresses that. There are high paying jobs there obviously, but more jobs are generated in the lower paying roles.

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More jobs in lower paying roles isn't necessarily a problem. While lower paid workers could and should be paid more, cities have the ability to change how we live so that isn't so expensive to live where the jobs are. You're as well aware as anyone that housing is the primary cost for most low income people. Cities can do lot to change that scenario by not artificially limiting housing construction. In addition, we can do things like invest in public transit so people don't require a car which is another high cost to living in the states.

We can complain all about the tech sector as much as we want but cities can already do things presently to make the lives of lower income people better. Higher wages doesn't mean anything if it's more money chasing the same limited number of housing.

 

[killerrin]

I'm in tech myself. It's a good career path and I really, really enjoy doing it. But the main thing that is clear as day is that the reason we earn the big bucks is because ultimately management wants something that is going to allow them to run their operations more efficiently with less people. And on the consumer side of the business, it's because there is a ton of money to be made in mining user data for providing a service.

These extremely generous tax incentives that cities, states, and even entire countries keep on throwing out there to attract and maintain these companies is a huge problem. The big tech companies are running laps around our governments and they are all too happy to bend over and take it because they'll be long out of power before the repercussions of their actions are felt. This shouldn't be happening. This is the very revenue stream that is desperately needed so that the government can provide for its citizens. It's what will ultimately be responsible for paying for Healthcare, Expansive Public Transit, UBI and many other programs that are necessary today and in the near future.


On the topic of automation we are trying to warn everyone. Automation is a problem that is only going to get worse. But as we see time and time again, people just want to keep on pretending the problem doesn't exist, or that it is in any way the same as the kind of automation we saw with factories when it quite simply is not. People have this misguided view that they'll be perfectly fine. That their job is 100% safe. That even if it gets taken away, they'll just retrain into something else. Not realizing that automation affects everyone and everything. Hell, it even affects the programmers writing the code, but that said we are all too happy to automate away portions of our own jobs to make our lives easier.

Retraining isn't going to be easy. In fact, if you aren't already in the field, it's probably going to be near impossible for most because by the time you retrain automation will have already taken that new job you were going into. In fact even if they retrained as a tech, a company only needs so many people to write and maintain the software and hardware. So the solution quite literally needs to be something like UBI. Which goes back to my earlier point that we need to stop giving out absurd tax advantages. Because that very money is going to be needed to pay for all the retraining and safety nets that will need to exist in an automation filled world.

 

[onyx]

There are low paying jobs in tech too. A lot of people don't make it to the high end jobs. Sometimes I'm shocked at how far I made it with no degree or certs, but that was due to networking. I've met people with certs and degrees that got stuck in low paying tech jobs for years and not being able to pay their student loans. Then if they finally do manage to climb up the ladder they do all they can to dig out the hole.

 

[TheHunter]

Water/WasteWater treatment is a well paying field with much needed job options to be filled job openings.
Just saying.

 

[entremet]

More jobs in lower paying roles isn't necessarily a problem. While lower paid workers could and should be paid more, cities have the ability to change how we live so that isn't so expensive to live where the jobs are. You're as well aware as anyone that housing is the primary cost for most low income people. Cities can do lot to change that scenario by not artificially limiting housing construction. In addition, we can do things like invest in public transit so people don't require a car which is another high cost to living in the states.

We can complain all about the tech sector as much as we want but cities can already do things presently to make the lives of lower income people better. Higher wages doesn't mean anything if it's more money chasing the same limited number of housing.

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I agree with all your points.

I just thought the case study using Phoenix was rather illuminating. But we've known tech doesn't create tons of job. I'm more concerned about stuff like subsidizes.

But I also share your concern with housing. Housing and the automobile are the biggest budget killers in the US, yet we don't focus more affordable housing and public transportation investments. The automobile is particularly insidious for the lower classes since cheaper vehicles are less reliable and require more upkeep in both time and money.

 

[larrybud]

even a degree is no guarantee. I have a bullshit English BA and what can I do with it? dead end awfulness. Or teach. I'm fucked!

 

[RastaMentality]

There are low paying jobs in tech too. A lot of people don't make it to the high end jobs. Sometimes I'm shocked at how far I made it with no degree or certs, but that was due to networking. I've met people with certs and degrees that got stuck in low paying tech jobs for years and not being able to pay their student loans. Then if they finally do manage to climb up the ladder they do all they can to dig out the hole.

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Like entry level SWE jobs? Or business side?

 

[entremet]

even a degree is no guarantee. I have a bullshit English BA and what can I do with it? dead end awfulness. Or teach. I'm fucked!

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Did you work in college? Internships?

Lots of companies just want entry level people no matter the degreee.

 

[Deleted member 6582]

Tech can't sustain everybody but there are far more jobs than there are people to fill them which is why companies have been pulling in people from around the world. Americans complaining about tech employers is bizarre, we're literally taking our place in the world for granted to the point we protest opening a new campus. Not only do we have the lion's share of jobs but we also have to work less hard than anywhere else to get them and they pay far more than anywhere else. I think part of the problem is that we've conflated our government failings with tech. We keep looking to companies to take care of the poor when realistically we should just guarantee certain amenities for everyone regardless of their employment status. The wage you earn should be your luxuries, not your livelihood. What's also weird is red states wiping out taxes so that high-tech blue state companies get richer. Just fucking tax corporations. Stop whining about them trying to make more money, that's exactly what they are designed to do, what they are supposed to do, stop pretending to be an idiot like it's unexpected. What is unexpected is want them to be pseudo-governments and take care of housing, transportation, health care, telecommunications and all that other stuff that competent governments take care of. Anyone asking what Amazon should do about homelessness has completely lost the plot.

 

[TissueBox]

I just don't think the comparison to the industrialization of modern society referenced in the article holds. The current status of the 'industry', government, trade, living (and amount of people living), and technology as it is now is leagues away from agrarian parameters.

In any case, it's a circular issue. America's working class problem has been a growing symptom of an overflowing bucket for years now, but with the pending shadow of automation and the like, it's only going to be further illuminated. Technological utility isn't inherently a parasite, but as it will cater to a certain subset in the job sector above all else at first there may be disparity. It will come down to how financial sanctions try to meet the common man halfway in the future.

 

[Dunk]

I work in the field of industrial automation, and while jobs are replaced they are typically more mundane, repetitious tasks.

If you don't automate some other company (or country) will, and then your facility will have 0 jobs.

Feels wrong to artificially hold back improvements in production, but not sure how society will deal with a potential lack of jobs. Hopefully there will always be something to repurpose into like with other industry revolutions.

With capitalism you just need to produce something that somebody else wants or needs, and trade for something you want or need. That provides a lot of variability in opportunity, but is society saturated with their needs/wants being met? Seems like there is always something new society will desire

 

[Veliladon]

The larger question we must ask ourselves: should livelihood be tied to work?

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The obvious answer in an ideal world is no but the problem is, and this happens with all "utopias", is that someone has to clean the toilets.

 

[SeanBoocock]

even a degree is no guarantee. I have a bullshit English BA and what can I do with it? dead end awfulness. Or teach. I'm fucked!

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With that attitude, you might be. An English degree doesn't have as clear a career path as other paths but that doesn't mean it is useless. You demonstrated you could complete a four (?) year program of study. You spent a considerable amount of time developing critical thinking skills. You learned to closely read texts and synthesize them. You likely developed better than average skills in persuasive communication. All of those are skills that are crucial to any number of jobs, including many in tech. Don't sell yourself short.

 

[Deleted member 6230]

People are right to point out that local governments are actually the real cause of the problems the article pointing but I wouldn't let trench companies off the hook completely

 

[Osa15]

As someone who is working in the tech industry, I can say the only split in the work force that tech is causing is between United States and India as a lot of tech companies are hiring Indian workers, while Americans get shafted. Rather than build the wall their should be build the firewall. Copyright 2019

Anyway, it isn't easy to land a tech job unless you live and breath coding or that talent is innate. Most companies administer white boarding assessments which cuts out lots of the candidates. And even if they get past that, there are still many more assessments to go through. After all of that, it makes it hard to get into the one spot that nearly 1000 are applying for.

 

[killerrin]

The obvious answer in an ideal world is no but the problem is, and this happens with all "utopias", is that someone has to clean the toilets.

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Do they though? I mean not a couple months ago there was a thread on here, pointing to an article of Walmart automating the cleaning of their bathrooms with a more industrial rhoomba like machinery

And as for actually scrubbing the toilets. One of these in every building/bathroom

What it really comes down to is that there is and can be a robot for nearly every task a human can do. The only limiting factor up until now has been the processing power and data backends needed to do real time computer vision, object recognition and voice recognition. But that's not really an issue anymore for 2/3 and the third is rapidly getting there.

 

[texmechanica]

As someone who is working in the tech industry, I can say the only split in the work force that tech is causing is between United States and India as a lot of tech companies are hiring Indian workers, while Americans get shafted. Rather than build the wall their should be build the firewall. Copyright 2019

Anyway, it isn't easy to land a tech job unless you live and breath coding or that talent is innate. Most companies administer white boarding assessments which cuts out lots of the candidates. And even if they get past that, there are still many more assessments to go through. After all of that, it makes it hard to get into the one spot that nearly 1000 are applying for.

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There's more than just software engineering jobs in the tech Industry. This seems a little short sighted.

 

[Tetrinski]

The obvious answer in an ideal world is no but the problem is, and this happens with all "utopias", is that someone has to clean the toilets.

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My solution to this problem is that in every company, every single employee, from top to bottom, take turns to clean the toilets. The world would be a much better place if everyone knew what cleaning a toilet is like.

I would also force everyone to spend one year of their lives living paycheck to paycheck while working shitty jobs. Again, the world would be a much better place.

 

[Ether_Snake]

My solution to this problem is that in every company, every single employee, from top to bottom, take turns to clean the toilets. The world would be a much better place if everyone knew what cleaning a toilet is like.

I would also force everyone to spend one year of their lives living paycheck to paycheck while working shitty jobs. Again, the world would be a much better place.

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Then everyone can say they did their part, that they know how it's like but worked thrir asses off to avoid staying in such a situation. Wouldn't do much really.

 

[Thorn]

Those of us who can't "learn to code" are soooo fucked.

 

[Tetrinski]

Then everyone can say they did their part, that they know how it's like but worked thrir asses off to avoid staying in such a situation. Wouldn't do much really.

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I think the life of retail workers and servers would be much nicer, to begin with.

 

[Deleted member 10551]

I'm hoping I can ride my current job out long enough to not have to work again, because I know I'd never get a good job again, and because I know it's a possibility I might not even get a bad one.

Ten more years and president Bernie, Warren followed by AOC please.

 

[norwegiandude86]

Speaking of the gentrification it seems many diverse neighborhoods in San Francisco have become yuppie neighborhoods these are the tech-bros and gentrification have absolutely ruined it.

And given the out of control real estate prices it's only gonna get worse unless you are super rich and this shit is spreading across the planet.

It's gonna come to a head sooner than later not everybody can work in the tech industry and there are only so many jobs available and with millions of people who are not working in tech what are they all gonna do if their jobs are lost to automation.

I am not sure anybody wants to find out what happens if somebody does not start to work on a solution, next to climate change this is gonna become a huge challenge for humanity.

 

[Pixels]

It already has and it's going to get worse.

 

[Ether_Snake]

Speaking of the gentrification it seems many diverse neighborhoods in San Francisco have become yuppie neighborhoods these are the tech-bros and gentrification have absolutely ruined it.

And given the out of control real estate prices it's only gonna get worse unless you are super rich and this shit is spreading across the planet.

It's gonna come to a head sooner than later not everybody can work in the tech industry and there are only so many jobs available and with millions of people who are not working in tech what are they all gonna do if their jobs are lost to automation.

I am not sure anybody wants to find out what happens if somebody does not start to work on a solution, next to climate change this is gonna become a huge challenge for humanity.

Click to shrink...

At first the reaction will be to divide: kick people out, raise walls, separate, hoping that by getting rid of "the others" they will be able to work together and fix their problems, get a better control over their government. In some places it will work. In others there will be too much resistance or it will simply fail to solve the problems, leading to the elemination of democracy as we know it as action is deemed necessary regardless of laws and rights in order to safeguard a sustainable socio-economic framework. All of this has already been emerging but people associate the situation to the wrong causes.

 

[Ominym]

Those of us who can't "learn to code" are soooo fucked.

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There are plenty of meaningful jobs in tech that don't require you to touch code.

 

[Zen]

Tech is the new gold. Not surprised that there's rampant gatekeeping and snobbery.

 

[Thorn]

There are plenty of meaningful jobs in tech that don't require you to touch code.

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Not sure what I can find. I've considered computer repair but I dunno. I'm also 29 in 2 weeks so its probably too late.

 

[Nordic4tKnight]

There are plenty of meaningful jobs in tech that don't require you to touch code.

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Yep like being a Project Manager for example. Great wages, no coding required.

 

[Ominym]

Not sure what I can find. I've considered computer repair but I dunno. I'm also 29 in 2 weeks so its probably too late.

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Nonsense, aside from the fact it's legitimately never too late, the average age of employees at the bigger companies is older than you probably think.

Not sure what your skill set is, but there's plenty of need for technical and copy writers, marketing people, project and program managers (helps to understand programming but not in-depth), design, research, etc. And that's just to name a few types of roles.

While this doesn't address the problem in the OP, which is absolutely a problem, there are ways to make it in with limited to no development knowledge. And quite frankly tech needs these types of people.

 

[Spinluck]

Tech is pretty lucrative overseas too.

 

[Ominym]

Yep like being a Project Manager for example. Great wages, no coding required.

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And good Project Managers are worth their weight in gold. Large and small companies alike are such a cluster fuck. Something as simple as keeping dozens of people on the same page straight up improves work quality and people's sanity.

 

[Thorn]

Nonsense, aside from the fact it's legitimately never too late, the average age of employees at the bigger companies is older than you probably think.

Not sure what your skill set is, but there's plenty of need for technical and copy writers, marketing people, project and program managers (helps to understand programming but not in-depth), design, research, etc. And that's just to name a few types of roles.

While this doesn't address the problem in the OP, which is absolutely a problem, there are ways to make it in with limited to no development knowledge. And quite frankly tech needs these types of people.

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Well how would I go about finding these jobs ? I got an associates in IT Business from a Community College because after I found out I couldn't code, its all I could really push for. Its basically IT + Business Degree if it wasn't obvious from the title.

I also live in Suburban Michigan which has fuck all for intro level IT jobs.

 

[Deleted member 23850]

Speaking of the gentrification it seems many diverse neighborhoods in San Francisco have become yuppie neighborhoods these are the tech-bros and gentrification have absolutely ruined it.

And given the out of control real estate prices it's only gonna get worse unless you are super rich and this shit is spreading across the planet.

It's gonna come to a head sooner than later not everybody can work in the tech industry and there are only so many jobs available and with millions of people who are not working in tech what are they all gonna do if their jobs are lost to automation.

I am not sure anybody wants to find out what happens if somebody does not start to work on a solution, next to climate change this is gonna become a huge challenge for humanity.

Click to shrink...

+1.

Although New Olreans has shown that it's not just tech that have been destroying housing markets. Yes, AIrBnb is rampant in New Orleans, but the median income in New Orleans is low compared to other cities with rising housing costs.

Having said that, I'm interested in seeing how tech can make urban planning better. GIS has already made planning better by making the process a lot less tedious. And spatial analysis has become al ot more powerful.

 

[Ominym]

Well how would I go about finding these jobs ? I got an associates in IT Business from a Community College because after I found out I couldn't code, its all I could really push for. Its basically IT + Business Degree if it wasn't obvious from the title.

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On the bright side, tech doesn't care too much about what your degree is in as long as you've got the skills to back up what you want to do. So don't limit yourself based on your educational background. Would it be harder to get your first tech job at Google? Sure, but after some experience you won't need to worry about that at all.

Regarding what you should go after? That's ultimately up to you. Based on the limited knowledge I have about you your skill set could be transferable to IT, project management, or perhaps a business analyst. But all of that is a guess, I would suggest looking up some resources on the roles to see if they appeal to you.

Outside of that it really just depends on what kind of market you're in. A lot of smaller markets outside of the major tech centers (NYC, Bay Area, Austin, and Atlanta) would be willing to take a shot on someone more green for these roles than others. If you're open to considering internships, most in tech are paid pretty decently too.

 

[Thorn]

On the bright side, tech doesn't care too much about what your degree is in as long as you've got the skills to back up what you want to do. So don't limit yourself based on your educational background. Would it be harder to get your first tech job at Google? Sure, but after some experience you won't need to worry about that at all.

Regarding what you should go after? That's ultimately up to you. Based on the limited knowledge I have about you your skill set could be transferable to IT, project management, or perhaps a business analyst. But all of that is a guess, I would suggest looking up some resources on the roles to see if they appeal to you.

Outside of that it really just depends on what kind of market you're in. A lot of smaller markets outside of the major tech centers (NYC, Bay Area, Austin, and Atlanta) would be willing to take a shot on someone more green for these roles than others. If you're open to considering internships, most in tech are paid pretty decently too.

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I guess I'll take a peek, but last time I checked no where in my area offered ANY Intro IT jobs, and I don't think I'm ready to move out. But I'll look for those kinds of jobs.