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.Detective.

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,660
On a recent Tuesday, Neal Fachan walked down a dock in Seattle's Lake Union and boarded a blue and yellow Harbour Air seaplane, alongside six other tech executives. He was bound for Vancouver to check on the Canadian office of Qumulo, the Seattle-based cloud storage company he co-founded in 2012. With no security lines, it was an easy 50-minute flight past snow-capped peaks. Later that day, Fachan caught a return flight back to Seattle.

Fachan began making his monthly Instagram-worthy commute when Qumulo opened its Vancouver office in January. Other passengers on the seaplanes go back and forth multiple times a week. Fachan says his company expanded across the border because Canada's immigration policies have made it far easier to hire skilled foreign workers there compared to the United States. "We require a very specific subset of skills, and it's hard to find the people with the right skills," Fachan says as he gets off the plane. "Having access to a global employment market is useful."

In the fractious battle over immigration policy, most of the attention has been directed at apprehending migrants at the southern border. Some tech executives and economists, however, believe that growing delays and backlogs for permits for skilled workers at America's other borders pose a more significant challenge to the U.S.'s standing as a wealth-creating start-up mecca. The risk of losing out on the fruits of innovation to Canada and other countries that are more welcoming to immigrants might be a bigger problem for our economic future than a flood of refugees. Half of America's annual GDP growth is attributed to rising innovation.

The backlogs in processing have particularly benefited our neighbor to the north. Canada has adopted an open-armed embrace of skilled programmers, engineers and entrepreneurs at the same time the U.S. is tightening its stance. Research shows that high-skilled foreign workers are highly productive and innovative, and tend to create more new businesses, generating jobs for locals. So each one who winds up in Canada instead of America is a win for the former, and a loss for the latter.

Canada's policies, in contrast, offer an alluring alternative. Canada permits companies with offices in the country to hire skilled foreign workers in positions such as computer engineers, software designers, and mathematicians, and have their visas processed within two weeks. These workers can soon after apply to be permanent residents and, within three years, become full-fledged citizens. (The path to permanent residency for foreign workers in the U.S., by contrast, can take decades.) Officials at the Canadian consulate in Seattle work with two to three companies a week trying to set up offices in Canada.

"The visa process is just completely unpredictable for us, and we were wrestling with it for so long, we decided we needed to have some certainty," says Thor Kallestad, the CEO of DataCloud, which uses technology to help mining companies better assess land potential. He already had offices in Silicon Valley and Seattle, but decided to open up shop in Vancouver and close his Silicon Valley office so he could more easily hire foreign workers. "In the U.S., we just couldn't get clear answers about what the process looked like, what we as a company needed to do to rectify it."

The Canadian option offers workers more certainty — and a near-guaranteed path to citizenship — while many U.S. skilled workers have no idea when and if they will get approved to stay in the United States. Given the choice, talented entrepreneurs with cutting-edge companies are choosing Canada. "They really make it easy to come in and start a business," said Nat Cartwright, one of the founders of Finn.AI, an artificial intelligence company that powers virtual assistants for banks around the world. Cartwright and her two business partners, who are from Australia and India, met in business school in Spain. When they graduated, they considered locating their new company in Silicon Valley, but ultimately chose Vancouver because they knew they would qualify for a start-up visa there, and that they would be able to quickly hire AI experts from around the world. Of the company's 60 workers, 60% were born outside Canada. Seven of Cartwright's business school classmates from Spain have since relocated to Canada.

The above is just a small portion, of a crazy long article. Good read, though. Canadoes what American't?

 

B'z-chan

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,107
Build programs for low income/undereducated individuals that already live in/near your companies then! The problem is easily solvable if you actually try to solve it. No offense to my Canadian neighbors, I know you guys need jobs too.
 

Felt

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
3,210
Aren't most of the top universities in AI/tech research in the US? Why wouldn't there be a bunch of highly skilled workers here?
 

Masoyama

Attempted to circumvent a ban with an alt account
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
5,648
Aren't most of the top universities in AI/tech research in the US? Why wouldn't there be a bunch of highly skilled workers here?

After PhD you get 1+2 years of OPT under your F1 and then you need to have an H1-B lined up, a path to a green card or move out of the country. If you let your F1 lapse, you have to jump into the lottery.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,973
Aren't most of the top universities in AI/tech research in the US? Why wouldn't there be a bunch of highly skilled workers here?
There are many foreign students coming out of tech fields from US universities. It's hard for them to stay employed afterwards due to how insanely convoluted and difficult for them to get permanent residency, as other posters have pointed out.

For example: I'm a foreign student currently less than 1 year out from finishing my PhD in aerospace engineering. In order to stay, I would have to get a job that is willing to sponsor me, work for them until the whole process is through, etc etc.

As opposed to immigrating to countries like Canada or NZ, who would gladly take someone like me without much hassle.
 
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sprsk

Resettlement Advisor
Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,450
Aren't most of the top universities in AI/tech research in the US? Why wouldn't there be a bunch of highly skilled workers here?

Cause a good portion of those students are immigrants. And even the act of changing a student visa is difficult in this dumbass country.
 

Brakke

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,798
Build programs for low income/undereducated individuals that already live in/near your companies then! The problem is easily solvable if you actually try to solve it. No offense to my Canadian neighbors, I know you guys need jobs too.

Easily solvable to create a bunch of math phds?

Because they want cheaper labor by using foreign workers under the guise of saying there is no skilled workers

That's not a guise, that's directly the plan. Which, anyway, this segment of the labor market is at full employment. It's not like the alternative — bid these people up to zillion-dollar salaries — is especially desirable.
 
OP
OP
.Detective.

.Detective.

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,660
Aren't most of the top universities in AI/tech research in the US? Why wouldn't there be a bunch of highly skilled workers here?

I think possibly most just do their time in a US(or unforunately are not able to stay longer due to the restrictions in place), and thus don't find much/any reason for long term reasons to stay afterwards due to complications. Whether that also has to to do with the overall quality of life in the US, is another question. The article mentions that a ton of tech companies offer super high starting salaries in the 100k plus range plus perks, but most folks don't stick around longer than a couple of years before moving on.

And then there is stuff like this:

Canadian officials have deftly responded to the changing climate in the U.S. In 2017, the Trudeau government announced Global Skills Strategy, the program that allows companies to get work permits for foreign talent in less than two weeks. Their spouses can also receive work permits; the U.S. Department of Homeland Security this year proposed revoking work permits of the spouses of skilled foreign workers in the U.S. In 2018, the Trudeau government also made permanent the Start-Up Visa program, which allows immigrant entrepreneurs to live and work in the country provided their start-up has secured funding from venture capitalists or angel investors. A similar start-up visa program in the United States was approved in the last days of the Obama administration, but the Trump administration is in the process of ending it. "By helping Canadian companies grow, this strategy is creating more jobs for Canada's middle class and a stronger Canadian economy," said Ahmed Hussen, Canada's Somali-born Minister of Immigration, earlier this year.

The United States allows about 140,000 immigrant skilled workers to become permanent residents annually; Canada, a company with one-tenth of the population, welcomed 160,000 skilled workers on the track to permanent residency in 2017 and hopes to get that number to nearly 200,000 by 2021.

While Canada has a lower average salary for super high end jobs than the US, our middle class wealth is strongest in the world. And quality of life is different here. It's not perfect by any means, but it's way different than other places.
 

Nesotenso

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,072
Aren't most of the top universities in AI/tech research in the US? Why wouldn't there be a bunch of highly skilled workers here?


The grad population in the US is mostly international students. Look at the PhDs from all the big schools. For citizens of India and China the wait to get a green card is excruciatingly long. Most Americans just don't go to grad school even in STEM
 

mugurumakensei

Elizabeth, I’m coming to join you!
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,320
Because they want cheaper labor by using foreign workers under the guise of saying there is no skilled workers

Not really. H1-B carries a premium actually. The lawyer/filing fees, average rate of salary + bump to offset additional taxation amounts to a higher cost for most companies where the average employee is not an H1B hire.

I know at my old company it cost about more than 10k in handling the paperwork for an H1B hire. He also made about 20k higher than everyone else in before tax income. Made about the same after taxes though. About the only ones gaming the system are some IT consulting firms.
 

Becks'

Member
Dec 7, 2017
7,432
Canada
Aren't most of the top universities in AI/tech research in the US? Why wouldn't there be a bunch of highly skilled workers here?

It could be due to multiple reasons. Maybe some people care about security due to loose gun laws or they want to easily immigrate and settle into North America. We have a merit based immigration system in which these highly skilled workers easily get their permanent residence due to their work experience, education, age and English proficiency.

Some people avoid maybe because of Trump and ICE crackdown.
 

Becks'

Member
Dec 7, 2017
7,432
Canada
I guess as a 47yo US coder it's too late to take that route to Canadian citizenship.

Provincial immigration program could the best for you then. In Ontario, if you spend two years as temporary foreign worker, you could get permanent residence if you have a job offer from a company that has 5 workers on a pay roll (Toronto area) or 3 workers.

You could still try for the federal program. You would get 0 points for age but if you have a degree and high English proficiency, I think you could get pulled. If you have a spouse, that also helps a lot.

My dad is 52 and he still managed to get permanent residence, he is in trades though.
 
Mar 18, 2019
627
Not surprising, considering how the majority of Silicon Valley's work force are foreigners, mostly from Asia. The US tech industry would fall apart without skilled foreign workers, who have been at the heart of the US tech industry from its earliest days.
 

BigWeather

Member
Nov 4, 2017
1,426
Why do you feel this way? If anything, your experience makes you a better candidate, and also your age as a more mature potential citizen.
Just read through the criteria and could likely squeak in above 67 points. Problem with my age is twofold -- at 47 I get 0/12 points (18-35 gets 12, -1 each year thereafter) and points from work experience caps at 6 years (I have 25). I get it, the goal is young people that'll contribute to the nation for years and won't draw retirement or have high medical costs in the immediate future. Additionally, my kids are grown so wouldn't help future generations.
 
Mar 18, 2019
627
Aren't most of the top universities in AI/tech research in the US? Why wouldn't there be a bunch of highly skilled workers here?
Most of the top US universities attract many of the brightest minds from across the world. That's how US universities are able to stay on top in tech research.

Limiting the talent pool to just a single country is restrictive, when they could attract the brightest minds from across the world. That's what drives innovation in the tech industry, and has done so since the early days of Silicon Valley (which was built on the back of foreign researchers).
 

Crazymoogle

Game Developer
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
2,879
Asia
The article in the OP (from TIME) is good, but also just exposing something that's been going on for more than a decade.

Microsoft's presence in Vancouver today is specifically because they needed a holding area for engineers while they tried to gradually migrate them to Redmond. BC was nearby, much easier to get people in, and of course just a phone call or road trip away from the main office. But immigration never got easier. It got worse. H1B was nearly impossible for some. So they expanded more in Vancouver instead. Now they have a crazy expensive main downtown office, multiple studios, probably still have their satellite offices there as well. At some point it was just easier to bring people to BC and settle in Vancouver - now one of the most expensive cities in the world - then fight against US immigration rules.
 
OP
OP
.Detective.

.Detective.

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,660
Just read through the criteria and could likely squeak in above 67 points. Problem with my age is twofold -- at 47 I get 0/12 points (18-35 gets 12, -1 each year thereafter) and points from work experience caps at 6 years (I have 25). I get it, the goal is young people that'll contribute to the nation for years and won't draw retirement or have high medical costs in the immediate future. Additionally, my kids are grown so wouldn't help future generations.

Depends on where you aim for, though, as another individual pointed out. Possibly via the provincial or federal entry programs. There are multiple ways, but you need to research the best fit for you. A lot of folks with a lower qualification settle here. And the family aspect plays a huge part. Though I imagine you older kids may not be interested as yourself in moving?

The article in the OP (from TIME) is good, but also just exposing something that's been going on for more than a decade.

Microsoft's presence in Vancouver today is specifically because they needed a holding area for engineers while they tried to gradually migrate them to Redmond. BC was nearby, much easier to get people in, and of course just a phone call or road trip away from the main office. But immigration never got easier. It got worse. And that's why it makes more sense for Microsoft to have a crazy expensive series of downtown offices and game studios rather than expand further in the US.

I've always found the whole Vancouver/West coast thing to be interesting, especially when you consider that it's actually Toronto that has a faster growing Tech sector in the past 5 years, beating out even SF and NYC combined. I am happy it never happened, but I can only imagine how crazy it would have gotten if the Amazon HQ2 ended up here.
 
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BigWeather

Member
Nov 4, 2017
1,426
Provincial immigration program could the best for you then. In Ontario, if you spend two years as temporary foreign worker, you could get permanent residence if you have a job offer from a company that has 5 workers on a pay roll (Toronto area) or 3 workers.

You could still try for the federal program. You would get 0 points for age but if you have a degree and high English proficiency, I think you could get pulled. If you have a spouse, that also helps a lot.

My dad is 52 and he still managed to get permanent residence, he is in trades though.
I really should look at that. My spouse is also a code with 30 years experience (though is also in her 50s). Additionally I have a little proficiency with French so that'd help a bit. I have a great uncle and cousins removed in Nova Scotia as well but sadly they don't qualify.
Depends on where you aim for, though, as another individual pointed out. Possibly via the provincial or federal entry programs. There are multiple ways, but you need to research the best fit for you. A lot of folks with a lower qualification settle here. And the family aspect plays a huge part. Though I imagine you older kids may not be interested as yourself in moving?
Actually, my oldest has a BS in Chemistry and is entering graduate school for a MS in Forensic Chemistry so would likely be an excellent candidate (and she's a world traveler like us and would likely want to move). No non-school related work experience yet, however.

Thanks for the responses, I appreciate it. I really should start looking into this seriously (this thread was a great reminder) -- now that we're empty nesters my wife and I can finally start thinking a bit more out of the box for the next decade or two.
 

Crazymoogle

Game Developer
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
2,879
Asia
I've always found the whole Vancouver/West coast thing to be interesting, especially when you consider that it's actually Toronto that has a faster growing Tech sector in the past 5 years, beating out even SF and NYC combined.

It's geography, basically. At first, Vancouver was cheaper. But it was also extremely close to Redmond and Seattle (Microsoft, Sega, Nintendo, Amazon, Valve, etc etc etc) Geography is a big deal when you're either looking to keep flight costs short (California) or are from another country (Japan, China), or simply want a similar way of life. Toronto is easily the biggest city in Canada, but it's also the most American, which can be a huge plus in general for companies moving up, but it holds its geography advantage only for the eastern seaboard.