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aweedswee

Member
Jan 21, 2020
64
Greece
Man paragon in UE5 would be PHENOMENAL. Im still sad they stopped production of the game cause of fortnite. šŸ˜’
Anyway, another fantastic video Df and dictator. Any plans on doing another video based on the answers u guys got from Epic?

Edit: If you didn't already use them for this video, cause I saw that you posted earlier that you did this video before epic answered your questions.
 
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Watership

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,116
Still disappointed in the 1440p/30fps. I get that it's computationally more expensive and probably can't run those computations on existing consoles. I had hoped that we could at least see 60 fps at 1440p. It's kind of surprising that Ass Creed is catching heat for 30FPS but this isn't. Have we seen any next gen footage running at 60 fps?
This is why presentation and first impressions are important. I'm not sure if MS had much say on what Uibsoft gave them to show, but AC:V B roll style, quickly cut vs the slow, deliberate nature of the UE5 Demo is what made the difference.

Dirt 5 and Chorvus were 60 fps on the Mixer stream and in the YouTube footage. However both say "expected Xbox Series X gameplay" meaning those builds aren't ready yet.

Edit: Scorn as well.
 

gofreak

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,734
Collpasing a voxel data structure into cubes is potentially extremely inefficient and can generate a lot of redundant geometry. There are more efficient approaches to voxel -> mesh conversion like greedy meshing and variants but it's probably still not a good idea.
Another possible approach is to use custom intersection shaders (which is a feature of RTX), which effectively means that instead of letting the hw manage its own AS and doing accelerated intersections using the hw (like the RT cores), you provide your own shader to do that, and the GPU invokes it whenever an intersection needs to be computed.
Ofc this is potentially slower (as you're not using the hw to the fullest) and only as efficient as your code and data structure are, but this allows to use the same interface to raytrace custom data like voxel, SDF, implicit parametric surfaces and such. I haven't seen or done much experimentation with this to know feasible it can be for something of that scale and if it's worth at all.

Thanks! Will be interesting to see if someone tries non-tri stuff on that hardware.
 

amstradcpc

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,768
To be fair DLSS 2.0 kind of brings ray tracing back into a possibility. But yeah until the 30 or 40 series cards get here, my guess is some type of dual approach to lighting/shadowing/reflections makes most sense for most games.
with a poly per pixel you wont be able to ray trace the scene until GPUs at 3nm at least.
 

Guy.brush

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,357
They probably chose that rocky cave setting on purpose cause this is where this shines.
What will be important for game development is how well this nanite tech really works with hard surface meshes.
Having highly tessellated photogrammetry/scanned mesh data is one thing, that can be LODed up/down relatively painless as it is just a bunch of random triangles anyway, but a clean car model or a character, any non natural form of hard surface mesh is a whole other topic.
 

Akela

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,849
They probably chose that rocky cave setting on purpose cause this is where this shines.
What will be important for game development is how well this nanite tech really works with hard surface meshes.
Having highly tessellated photogrammetry/scanned mesh data is one thing, that can be LODed up/down relatively painless as it is just a bunch of random triangles anyway, but a clean car model or a character, any non natural form of hard surface mesh is a whole other topic.

In terms of hard surface models, I have to imagine they must support subdivision surfaces or something of that effect - basically the concept of modelling clean, low poly meshes that are then divided up into many polygons and made perfectly smoothed. This is how you would usually model a car or another hard surface object in a CG film.

mcqueen_wheel_cage.jpg


mcqueen_wheel_limit.jpg


Here's an example from Pixar - the top image is the original low poly mesh, and the bottom is what it will look like when subdivided. Note that the software that they're using still shows the original wireframe overlayed on top of the subdivided geo, in reality there's many times more polygons in the second image to give it that smooth appearance.
 
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Shyotl

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,272
If geometry is represented how this video supposes for Nanite, this technology seems like it may translate quite well to Microsoft's BCPack algorithm, compensating for the XSX's slower SSD by providing by providing a better texture compression ratio than Sony's more generalized algorithm. Wouldn't be surprised if Epic was involved with that as well.
 

MIMF

Member
Nov 23, 2017
146
Here is how I think the nanite works from a high level perspective:

They have in RAM memory data structures calculated offline that represent a sparse voxelization of spatial occupancy (cannot find a better term) of all the static meshes under the nanite system. In other words, they have a grid of voxels covering all the scene and each voxel is flagged as occupied if at least one triangle from the millions of the source mesh falls inside, or not flagged if otherwise.

Then they cast a ray from the camera going through each pixel of the screen towards the scene looking for the intersection with the first cube/voxel of this scene representation that is flagged as occupied. This occupancy state can potentially be as packed as a single bit that indicates that at least there is one triangle that falls inside that cube/voxel.

That collision against the occupied cube/voxel yields an index/spatial reference that can be used to calculate the access to a "small" subset of the triangles of the high density source mesh, as it makes sense to imagine that the source mesh with billions of triangles is spatially organized in spatial chunks in the SSD memory.

Then this subset of triangles that fall inside the collided cube/voxel is streamed to RAM from the SSD and all these triangles get processed using compute shaders in a way conceptually similar to the one described in the DICE presentation from GDC 2016 (https://es.slideshare.net/gwihlidal/optimizing-the-graphics-pipeline-with-compute-gdc-2016), but instead of creating on the fly per frame optimized index buffers that remove back facing triangles, micro triangles that do not get rasterized, triangles outside the screen, etc, instead they find after processing all the triangles the one that covers the pixel screen.

When this triangle is found, one set of attributes from one of its vertex is outputted to a G buffer that later gets shaded in a full screen postprocess pass as in any deferred rendered pipeline without any dependency of where and how this data came from. This avoid the caveat of rasterizing only one pixel per triangle what does not make sense at all from a hardware efficiency perspective.

The insane IO speed of next gen consoles comes into play into this scheme as it is mandatory to be able to select a tile a pixels, launch the rays, bring to RAM extremely fast the subset of triangles inside each intersected voxel, process them to find the triangle covering the pixel center and output its results to a G buffer, bring back to SDD memory the subset of triangles to let room for the next ones, and repeat.

This scheme makes sense to me and conceptually is also logical with powerful optimizations such as front to back rendering and also is coherent in all steps with the desired wraps/wavefronts not sparse access to data while also keeping coherency of the compute shaders code path.

Does this make sense to you guys? Or there is something that does not sound feasible?
 
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Calabi

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,484
For me when watching the demo I was like "ok bounced light i have seen before without screen-space probs" - but I HAVE NEVER SEEN THIS GEO BEFORE. For me it is soooooooo much more impressive than the lighting presentation or anything else at all.

I am really curious about the exact details of how they break down meshes (perhaps like Ubisoft did for Ass Creed Unity? Or Geometry texture thingies??), what meshes can be done this way, and how it can be extended. How it scales in performance in the end here, if it is really so darn compute heavy... then we will see some unique scaling here between GPUs.

Yeah the Nanite engine is really seriously the most impressive thing in this engine. I've messed around with creating 3D models, and high poly low poly normal maps, and it so laborious and annoying and time consuming. Just on the developer side this will save so much time and effort, if it does work as good as they say. And just not having LOD's which just make the graphics look so much better and more realistic.
 
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nelsonroyale

Member
Oct 28, 2017
12,126
If geometry is represented how this video supposes for Nanite, this technology seems like it may translate quite well to Microsoft's BCPack algorithm, compensating for the XSX's slower SSD by providing by providing a better texture compression ratio than Sony's more generalized algorithm. Wouldn't be surprised if Epic was involved with that as well.

It is not just textures though...
 
Dec 8, 2018
1,911
Yeah this seem to be turning out to be what checkerboarding was to resolution but for RT. Might not be perfect but just like with checkerboarding it will be good enough that DF and similar will be needed to point the small inconsistencies and artifacts but 99% of people won't notice.
 

SharpX68K

Member
Nov 10, 2017
10,515
Chicagoland
Epic Reveals Stunning Elemental Demo, & Tim Sweeney on Unreal Engine 4
By Andrew Burnes On Friday, June 8th, 2012

ASvyXoW.jpg


What is the target platform for UE4? What kind of hardware are gamers going to need to run UE4 based games?
Unreal Engine 4's next-generation renderer targets DirectX 11 GPU's and really starts to become interesting on hardware with 1+ TFLOPS of graphics performance, where it delivers some truly unprecedented capabilities.

ffz0Moq.jpg


web.archive.org/web/20120610061437/https://www.geforce.com/whats-new/articles/stunning-videos-show-unreal-engine-4s-next-gen-gtx-680-powered-real-time-graphics/

So with UE5 on PS5 specifically they have 10+ TFLOPS of graphics performance to work with.

I think most of us remember that SVOGI (their implementation ofGlobal Illumination at the time) had to be cut from Unreal Engine 4 because it was too expensive. Both Xbox One and PS4 were "1+ TFLOPS" however I think it's pretty well understood that EPIC was expecting the 2013 consoles, both of them, to be around 2.5 TFLOPS. They noted at DICE 2012 that their 2011 Samaritan demo needed this much. Above 10x the Xbox 360.

hiQlUcP.jpg
 
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plagiarize

Eating crackers
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
27,511
Cape Cod, MA
Just want to say, thanks to everyone participating in this deep dive. I've learnt a lot and had forgotten that Nvidia's ray tracing acceleration relies on BVH traversal to achieve the effect. So while there's no reason you can't use ray tracing with Nanite you can't do it with BVHs, so Nvidia's hardware can't *accelerate* that process, which makes the performance demands for real time ray tracing stupendously high and far beyond what current hardware using current techniques can manage.
 

Dictator

Digital Foundry
Verified
Oct 26, 2017
4,930
Berlin, 'SCHLAND
This has some artifacts that a fully general ray/path tracer won't have.

Bear in mind comparing to some nVidia tech - though they use ray tracing of geometry, some 'ray tracing' techniques are using acceleration techniques that carry some of the artifacts (like latency) that this approach does. 'Ray tracing' doesn't necessarily mean a completely uncached, per frame recalculation that's itself completely physically accurate. But you won't have the screenspace related artifacts that are still present in places here.



That's the million dollar question. If you don't notice does it matter? I didn't notice these artifacts until they were pointed out. Maybe in some types of scene it would be easier to spot than in others. Some people will spot them more readily than others. I think in many types of scene probably most people would not.

That's only for the lighting components this tech is targeting though. Things like higher frequency reflections? I'm not really sure we see how this is handled here (i.e. it's not handled by Lumen). General ray tracing is probably going to be noticeably better than most other techniques we've seen for reflections, so that might be a place where the cost of RT is more worth it to more eyes.
They use ssr in the Demo for any high frequecy reflection. To put it on the record, Epic said nanite works with hw RT.
So has this killed ray tracing already (for lighting atleast)?
No... The lighting in this demo is cheaper for a reason, it lacks accurscy on the large scale (voxels or sdfs will produce Light leaks) and since it uses screen space Info, it produces errors on dynamic and small objects. The light disappears if objects get in the way. The GI cannot also do very shiny materials... HW RT would be needed to do those.
 
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Tappin Brews

#TeamThierry
Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,869
fantastic video Dictator, possibly my favorite from digital foundry yet. You did an absolutely fantastic job of analyzing this demo, but more importantly of communicating about it in great detail and in a way that is quite approachable. loved it
 

Respawn

Member
Dec 5, 2017
780
Still disappointed in the 1440p/30fps. I get that it's computationally more expensive and probably can't run those computations on existing consoles. I had hoped that we could at least see 60 fps at 1440p. It's kind of surprising that Ass Creed is catching heat for 30FPS but this isn't. Have we seen any next gen footage running at 60 fps?
How can you compare AC to this?
 

Ninjatogo

Member
Oct 28, 2017
229
Very nice video! In response to the questions of transparencies, if the Nanite system is able to handle animated objects such as hair, grass, leaves and such, it would probably make more sense to fully model those assets rather than go with the traditional alpha texture mapped system. If the system is already pushing tens of millions of polygons, it probably wouldn't hurt to push a few thousand more in the form of fully modeled leaves, blades of grass, and strands of hair.
 

DreadfulOmen

Member
Feb 6, 2018
1,124
Still disappointed in the 1440p/30fps. I get that it's computationally more expensive and probably can't run those computations on existing consoles. I had hoped that we could at least see 60 fps at 1440p. It's kind of surprising that Ass Creed is catching heat for 30FPS but this isn't. Have we seen any next gen footage running at 60 fps?
probably because valhalla doesn't look as good as this.
 

Painguy

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
1,024
California
summary if no one wants to do it
  • pixel-sized triangles is pretty inefficient so how is Epic avoiding wasteful rendering?
For me when watching the demo I was like "ok bounced light i have seen before without screen-space probs" - but I HAVE NEVER SEEN THIS GEO BEFORE. For me it is soooooooo much more impressive than the lighting presentation or anything else at all.

I am really curious about the exact details of how they break down meshes (perhaps like Ubisoft did for Ass Creed Unity? Or Geometry texture thingies??), what meshes can be done this way, and how it can be extended. How it scales in performance in the end here, if it is really so darn compute heavy... then we will see some unique scaling here between GPUs.

with regards to the nanite implementation for the pixel sized triangles; i think they could be doing 2 things here. 1st there is something known as Quad Fragment merging used with rendering of micropolygons.

TPJS3HO.png


Basically the main issue the GPU would prefers its rasterizer to succeed in testing for a triangle that spans a 2x2 pixel area, but this isn't the case in the example above. the rasterizer instead finds 3 tris and and thus tries to shade this 2x2 pixel area 3 times. Instead, BEFORE any shading is done and AFTER rasterization is complete, you must attempt to merge the data associated with these 3 polygons and then shade them. This is called quad fragment merging. There are a number of rules dictating which quad fragments are merged and which ones are not:
1. They dont have the same same multi-sample point
2. They have the same screen-space position
3. They are either both front facing or backfacing
4. The triangles are connected via edges

There are some artifacting issues like aliasing between quad fragments in some cases of discontinuity with this but if you manage to spot them......well idk lol

There is also the possibility that they use deferred shading and generate all necessary buffers for scene attributes then perform shading. UE4 defaults to a deferred renderer so i wouldn't be surprised if they just use a gbuffer or something after proper setup is done

With regards to how the per pixel triangle thing is done. Tesselation obviously plays a big part of it. DX11 has something known has a Hull Shader. This generates a parametric description of the input mesh which can then be sub divided. There are certain algorithms dedicated to generating micropolygons from a parametric description tho i forget their names. You can do cool stuff with parametric descriptions and tessellation like more accurate culling n such.

I imagine there is an optimization for rasterization as well since most of this can run in compute.

RT can be used with the parametric description of the meshes btw instead of the micropolygons.

not sure exactly what epic is doing but i imagine its something like all the above.
 
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Leveean

Member
Nov 9, 2017
1,086
DF should just stop reporting on resolution next gen because people get so hung up on something increasingly meaningless.
 
Oct 25, 2017
9,205
Still disappointed in the 1440p/30fps. I get that it's computationally more expensive and probably can't run those computations on existing consoles. I had hoped that we could at least see 60 fps at 1440p. It's kind of surprising that Ass Creed is catching heat for 30FPS but this isn't. Have we seen any next gen footage running at 60 fps?

There is nothing next gen about that AC game. It is not only if the best looking games from this gen from I have seen so far.
 

zombiejames

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,921
Still disappointed in the 1440p/30fps. I get that it's computationally more expensive and probably can't run those computations on existing consoles. I had hoped that we could at least see 60 fps at 1440p. It's kind of surprising that Ass Creed is catching heat for 30FPS but this isn't. Have we seen any next gen footage running at 60 fps?
The UE5 demo is in a whole other league than a cross-gen game. A totally different planet.
 

PLASTICA-MAN

Member
Oct 26, 2017
23,577
Don't think the engine is available to anyone atm, not even as early access. Plus I doubt a AAA project well under development would be using an alpha/beta ver of an engine.

Plus the game will likely launch better UE5 does.

xboxera.com

Phil Spencer: Ninja Theory are excited to bring the Unreal Engine 5 innovations to life on Xbox Series X

Today Epic has shown a demo of Unreal Engine 5 running on a PlayStation 5. There was no mention of the Xbox Series X at todays event. But, many of

Many games like Daylight and Ester One this gen released before the official release of UE4 and using beta version of UE4 that only devs got by that time.
 

Respawn

Member
Dec 5, 2017
780
I mean this is a Tech demo. It SHOULD be more capable than an open world game. What should I compared this to?
This is doing much more than you think and stressing the GPU and CPU in it's raw performance. AC will look nothing like this visually or technologically. Be cool and don't let the console war thing get to you. Things will run much better when tools are mature and optimized.
 

PLASTICA-MAN

Member
Oct 26, 2017
23,577
Will hair dithering still be an issue on Ps5/XBSX?

Well only in enegines like UE who still don't want to transition to forward rendering and are stuck with deferred rendering which doesn't allow efficient form of AA like MSAA and can only rely on TAA and yes even this demo has dithering on hair sadly and is maybe the reason why they didn't use more advanced and denser hair neither here nor in HB2 to not appear shabby or flickering
I really don't know why Epic didn't choose to transition to forward rendering with UE5 since next-gen allows it, at least this would justify calling it UE5.

Don't worry, you won't get such problems in other engines with forward rendering where strong MSAA can be applied, you will have much more pristine IQ oveerall than this.
 

jroc74

Member
Oct 27, 2017
28,992
I'd happily take this, at 1440p 30fps for majority of next gen games over anything I've seen from raytraced games tbh. This blew my mind. Minecraft with RT? not so much.
Then knowing it was upscaled to 4K?

Yes, I'll take 2.

This is why presentation and first impressions are important. I'm not sure if MS had much say on what Uibsoft gave them to show, but AC:V B roll style, quickly cut vs the slow, deliberate nature of the UE5 Demo is what made the difference.

Dirt 5 and Chorvus were 60 fps on the Mixer stream and in the YouTube footage. However both say "expected Xbox Series X gameplay" meaning those builds aren't ready yet.

Edit: Scorn as well.
The UE5 demo is in a whole other league than a cross-gen game. A totally different planet.
Yeah, I think thats why. Its not really a good comparison.

Like that 1 statues in the room 485 times? Thats extreme overkill. But no issues while they were playing the demo.

There is alot going on in this demo, I know this and I have no idea about game development.
 

ILikeFeet

DF Deet Master
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
61,987
Well only in enegines like UE who still don't want to transition to forward rendering and are stuck with deferred rendering which doesn't allow efficient form of AA like MSAA and can only rely on TAA and yes even this demo has dithering on hair sadly and is maybe the reason why they didn't use more advanced and denser hair neither here nor in HB2 to not appear shabby or flickering
I really don't know why Epic didn't choose to transition to forward rendering with UE5 since next-gen allows it, at least this would justify calling it UE5.

Don't worry, you won't get such problems in other engines with forward rendering where strong MSAA can be applied, you will have much more pristine IQ oveerall than this.
what do you mean "transition"? Forward Rendering isn't inherently better than Deferred Rendering or anything. and UE4 can do forward rendering
 

PLASTICA-MAN

Member
Oct 26, 2017
23,577
what do you mean "transition"? Forward Rendering isn't inherently better than Deferred Rendering or anything. and UE4 can do forward rendering

Well in some cases it is much better, especially in allowing things to happen directly in the frame and without a delay tech like MSAA or some otehr post prcoess techs and even some lightings and even input lag is is elsser too while defererd interpoltaes many things in the successive frames that create such delay in those techs.
Now next-gen consoles can allow as many lreal time light sources to happen without needing to rely on deferred rendering.

nd since when UE can do forward rendering? It has always been a deferred renderer otherwise why would they still rely on TAA and even this Lumen tech has delay in shift of bounce of lights due to that.
 
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ILikeFeet

DF Deet Master
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
61,987
nd sicne when UE can do forward rendering? It has always been a deferred renderer otherwise why would they still rely on TAA and even this Lumen tech has delay in shift of bounce of lights due to that.
since 2016. probably before that (always supported it? don't remember)
www.unrealengine.com

Unreal Engine 4.14 Released!

Unreal Engine 4.14 is now available, and it is packed with hundreds of updates from the team at Epic along with 71 contributions from the amazing developer community via GitHub! This release adds a new forward shading renderer with MSAA, native automatic LOD generation, multiple static lighting...
 

SleepSmasher

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,094
Australia
Well in some cases it is much better, especially in allowing things to happen directly in the frame and without a delay tech like MSAA or some otehr post prcoess techs and even some lightings and even input lag is is elsser too while defererd interpoltaes many things in the successive frames that create such delay in those techs.
Now next-gen consoles can allow as many lreal time light sources to happen without needing to rely on deferred rendering.

nd sicne when UE can do forward rendering? It has always been a deferred renderer otherwise why would they still rely on TAA and even this Lumen tech has delay in shift of bounce of lights due to that.
I have a feeling you're not entirely sure what you're talking about.
 

PLASTICA-MAN

Member
Oct 26, 2017
23,577
since 2016. probably before that (always supported it? don't remember)
www.unrealengine.com

Unreal Engine 4.14 Released!

Unreal Engine 4.14 is now available, and it is packed with hundreds of updates from the team at Epic along with 71 contributions from the amazing developer community via GitHub! This release adds a new forward shading renderer with MSAA, native automatic LOD generation, multiple static lighting...

Check exactly what you posted the forward renderer is mostly for VR where MSAA matters the most to not hurt the eyes and I don't recall this being used in any non VR UE game after because the deferred renderer version is much rooted in the making for gnereal more advanced games right now in UE.

Expect this in UE5 now, you will get sub pixel details and sub pixel polygons to allow very tiny geomemtrical details that are normally done using normal maps like skin pores but now sicne the graphics advanced a lot you will get such details needed in subpixel space with more than one polygon per pixel in... VR only where it matters the most again because VR requires more accurate rendering and things can look horrendous if they are faked.

So while UE5 will allow more than one polygon per pixel for VR where it matters the most, we can't say that this is common too and will happen in all non VR games too.

You get the idea.
 

trugc

Member
Oct 28, 2017
138
So Nanite seems to be using the idea behind geometry image. Meshes are stored as "picture" rather than traditional vertex or triagnles. The engine will use the idea of virtual texture to stream in mesh picture tiles based on feedback from current frame, and re-build the triangle mesh in realtime, which is done in software rasterizer, since hardware rasterizer suffers from efficiency issues under situation where there are millions of pixel/subpixel level triangles. So you now can achieve dynamic lod selection, GPU culling, adaptive tessellation and other features all in one framework. Extremely cool idea! Dictator
 
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ILikeFeet

DF Deet Master
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
61,987
Check exactly what you posted the forward renderer is mostly for VR where MSAA matters the most to not hurt the eyes and I don't recall this being used in any non VR UE game after because the deferred renderer version is much rooted in the making for gnereal more advanced games right now in UE.

Expect this in UE5 now, you will get sub pixel details and sub pixel polygons to allow very tiny geomemtrical details that are normally done using normal maps like skin pores but now sicne the graphics advanced a lot you will get such details needed in subpixel space with more than one polygon per pixel in... VR only where it matters the most again because VR requires more accurate rendering and things can look horrendous if they are faked.

So while UE5 will allow more than one polygon per pixel for VR where it matters the most, we can't say that this is common too and will happen in all non VR games too.

You get the idea.
You can use the forward renderer for anything. They just bring up VR because UE4 defaults to deferred rendering, which isn't the best for VR.