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TBT to when Naughty Dog cast a white girl doing an accent as a South African black woman and said she was better than actual South African black women
- Thread starter LifeLine
- Start date
while I agree it doesn't carry the same baggage and weight as black face, I still think it speaks to an issue with representation in the industry and media/entertainment in general. It's not that these casting directors are themselves racist, but a lot of the systems in place in entertainment are.
Yup.
I know we have The Vault, but do we have a Vault of Shame? Because this thread needs to go right in it.
More into hiring the right person for the job. Phill Lamar killed that role
The amount of false equivalency and mental gymnastics people are using in this thread to try to justify or minimize this stupid decision from Naughty Dog and racist behavior at large is pathetic and embarrassing.
I found a video of Neil talking about the reason he chose Bailey and the reason he chose her chemistry with the other actors.
Which in and of itself isn't a great answer because it feeds into the AAA=critical role performances and no one else type of thing because ofc Laura Bailey is gonna have chemistry with Nolan North & Troy Baker, she's worked alongside them for years. As I said, though, they clearly addressed this already with their latest release. And I can't see them backing down from that anytime soon.
All that said, i'm actually curious about the source of the OP's quote, if it's the video above I can't help but wonder why it omits the specific reason he chose Laura Bailey since the title absolutely doesn't reflect what was actually said.
Which in and of itself isn't a great answer because it feeds into the AAA=critical role performances and no one else type of thing because ofc Laura Bailey is gonna have chemistry with Nolan North & Troy Baker, she's worked alongside them for years. As I said, though, they clearly addressed this already with their latest release. And I can't see them backing down from that anytime soon.
All that said, i'm actually curious about the source of the OP's quote, if it's the video above I can't help but wonder why it omits the specific reason he chose Laura Bailey since the title absolutely doesn't reflect what was actually said.
Color-blind casting overwhelmingly favors white hires since odds are already so stacked against people of color in terms of equal access to opportunities. In cases like this where they "hired the best person for the job", it sends the message that they're more than happy to use your likeness, but you're never good enough to even play the few roles of characters made to look like you, intentional or not.
Agreed. We know developers have done it before (John Tron being removed from Yooka Layly, if I'm not mistaken)
Nah, if one black person can voice a white or non-black character at any point in history, that obviously means there isn't a systemic issue with black actors getting passed over for black roles in favor of their white contemporaries in the game and movie industry.
That doesn't mean anything. Those "scans" are probably just a starting point and the character artists go from there. Clearly someone or multiple people just straight up ripped off a real life actress. It's not like they haven't done it before.
Cutter is a bald, white, action star looking dude with a British accent. Humm, I wonder who they are ripping off here
Marlowe is an older, but still attractive and also elegant British women. Nobody in real life like that
It's not like they would publicly admit "We totally ripped off Helen Mirren for Marlowe and didn't bother to get her permission first".
I Think this is the important thing, lots of ppl are dunking on them for this and they deserved to be dunked on for this 3 or 4 years ago. While they may never admit it I truly believe they know they F'd up and with how well they did part II, I expect them to get better and better at having the right representation in their games, and to continue learning and doing better by it.
I'm 100 percent positive their next game is not gonna feature a white male lead, it's gonna be a poc for sure, and I'm hoping for asian and black co leads in a sci fi adventure.
People have to rationalize inequality to themselves. It's some of the biggest denial I've ever seen.
Lev or I riot.
User Banned (Permanent): Dismissing concerns around representation, use of alt right rhetoric, prior ban for dismissing sexism
Forcing diversity is the distasteful part, not casting a A-lister for voice performance regardless of the colour of her skin.
People are afraid to speak up because anything but total outrage is unacceptable here. It can't be that we're just conflicted.
People are afraid to speak up because anything but total outrage is unacceptable here. It can't be that we're just conflicted.
Can you not understand that black people get so far fewer opportunities that you voicing a white person is a win, while a white person voicing a black character is Wednesday?
Are you so pie in the sky that you believe every time a Black VA loses a role, it was because they "just weren't good enough"?
Your idealism blinds you. Allow me to help you see reality.
I feel like many people in this thread are ignoring the larger issue here.
It's simple to look at this question and only apply some very narrow logic:
"Well we can't see the voice actor's faces anyway, so long as they're good at it race doesn't matter."
But this is not a simple issue.
There are so many extra hurdles and difficulties non-white actors go through, even before starting in the VA industry.
And it snowballs into other issues that compound the problem:
- POC have a difficult time even getting into the industry, which leads to a larger portion of the VA community being white.
- Which causes them to build relationships, either consciously or unconsciously, more often with other white voice actors.
- Who then recommend one another, which can hurt the chances for someone outside those circles getting work.
This is already a situation where the deck is heavily stacked against non-white actors.
So to take a POC character, and cast a white actor, is going to feel like a huge slap in the face.
And send the message "We don't need or want you here."
If things were actually equal, I could see debating this question.
But when you take everything into account, I think the answer is an easy "no"
It's simple to look at this question and only apply some very narrow logic:
"Well we can't see the voice actor's faces anyway, so long as they're good at it race doesn't matter."
But this is not a simple issue.
There are so many extra hurdles and difficulties non-white actors go through, even before starting in the VA industry.
And it snowballs into other issues that compound the problem:
- POC have a difficult time even getting into the industry, which leads to a larger portion of the VA community being white.
- Which causes them to build relationships, either consciously or unconsciously, more often with other white voice actors.
- Who then recommend one another, which can hurt the chances for someone outside those circles getting work.
This is already a situation where the deck is heavily stacked against non-white actors.
So to take a POC character, and cast a white actor, is going to feel like a huge slap in the face.
And send the message "We don't need or want you here."
If things were actually equal, I could see debating this question.
But when you take everything into account, I think the answer is an easy "no"
I'm with OP but the thread title is throwing me off.
I actually like Nadine, I like most of Bailey's work, and never felt ok with this mainly due to black women not usually ever getting prominent roles in AAA games and this being a black female character. I can't call out SA accents or anything but I was always on board with a recast.
The deflection here and just the reaction in general... Lots of you showing your whole ass.
I actually like Nadine, I like most of Bailey's work, and never felt ok with this mainly due to black women not usually ever getting prominent roles in AAA games and this being a black female character. I can't call out SA accents or anything but I was always on board with a recast.
The deflection here and just the reaction in general... Lots of you showing your whole ass.
I wonder what the percentage would be if there was a poll when this controversy hit Wargroove
www.resetera.com
Wargroove (Chucklefish) is receiving criticism for casting white actors for its POC characters(Dev respond, see threadmark)
This is making the rounds on Twitter at the moment; Wargroove's upcoming DLC features four new primary characters, three of whom are POC, and all of whom are voiced by white actors or actresses. The base game also features what seems to be* a mostly white cast, with the exceptions of Kimlinh...
www.resetera.com
Anakin Skywalker is played by white people in every iteration. James Earl Jones' voice is specifically for the robotic distortion of the equipment Anakin wears as Darth Vader. That's why he doesn't sound like Jones when the helmet is off. The same thing happens in Rebels when his mask breaks: you hear Anakin and the Vader voice at the same time when he speaks.
What you're saying has nothing to do with anything.
They should have recast after the character was redesigned. I agree with the overall idea of the thread though I dislike the sensationalist framing in the title.
If they didn't want to be criticized for having a white woman voice a black character, how about have the character actually be white?
You can quit it with the tone policing too, it's not helpful and it's a deflection attempt from what's important.
User Banned (3 months): hostility and dismissing concerns around representation
That is actually true. If you don't agree and say "no, Im all up for the vision of the director and think he should cast whoever he wants for the role" you are automatically called a racist that is """in denial""". It's like a fucking cult of deranged fanatics.
Was bullshit then and is bullshit now. They should have never have made that a thing in the first place. I remember everyone hand waving it when uncharted 4 released even though people were trying to be serious. Least it looks ND learned their lesson, I hope.
Still can't enjoy u4 or lost legacy because of it. It just really bothers me knowing it's Laura Bailey, and I actually like her in most of her stuff.
Still can't enjoy u4 or lost legacy because of it. It just really bothers me knowing it's Laura Bailey, and I actually like her in most of her stuff.
It's possible to be conflicted on this. I don't think it's wrong to think she shouldn't be recast at this point.
But anyone who types the phrase "forced diversity" deserves any backlash he or she gets in her comments.
I agree with you. As a blackman I'm speaking from 15+ years working in this industry. I've seen it all. It would take having more minority creative directors , game directors , concept designers , game developers etc. This industry is white male focused, there needs to be more inclusion. Reflect the world we live in. Only recently has it started to shift. I haven't seen an overly racist paradigm in the games industry, it's mostly talent driven, basically can you do the work. This is just my perspective. I've definitely have seen a sexist one though.
They have different eyes, nose, cheek bones, and mouth shapes dude. Remember that stink about how a character in MGSV was "clearly" based off of a person who had surface level similarities:That doesn't mean anything. Those "scans" are probably just a starting point and the character artists go from there. Clearly someone or multiple people just straight up ripped off a real life actress. It's not like they haven't done it before.
Cutter is a bald, white, action star looking dude with a British accent. Humm, I wonder who they are ripping off here
Marlowe is an older, but still attractive and also elegant British women. Nobody in real life like that
It's not like they would publicly admit "We totally ripped off Helen Mirren for Marlowe and didn't bother to get her permission first".
It could be crunch related. Plagiarism = I can finally go home and sleep.
Cutter is played by Graham McTavish and Marlowe is played by Rosalind Ayers, they very well might've used Jason Statham and Helen Mirren, but the actors that played them are not so far removed that the characters couldn't also have been based on them.That doesn't mean anything. Those "scans" are probably just a starting point and the character artists go from there. Clearly someone or multiple people just straight up ripped off a real life actress. It's not like they haven't done it before.
Cutter is a bald, white, action star looking dude with a British accent. Humm, I wonder who they are ripping off here
Marlowe is an older, but still attractive and also elegant British women. Nobody in real life like that
It's not like they would publicly admit "We totally ripped off Helen Mirren for Marlowe and didn't bother to get her permission first".
Graham McTavish
Rosalind Ayers
Is voice acting an entertainment industry where black representation is bad? I know in Hollywood black representation is good these days for movie and TV. It's asians that are vastly under-represented.
Lol, now I'm curious how the poll would go if you replace NG with Bioware.
The character is literally a black woman.
Fuck your "forced" diversity.
This, people attempting to turn a fun meme into a genuine criticism.Cutter is played by Graham McTavish and Marlowe is played by Rosalind Ayers, they very well might've used Jason Statham and Helen Mirren, but they actors that played them are not so far removed that the characters couldn't also have been based on them.
Graham McTavish
Rosalind Ayers
Cutter is played by Graham McTavish and Marlowe is played by Rosalind Ayers, they very well might've used Jason Statham and Helen Mirren, but the actors that played them are not so far removed that the characters couldn't also have been based on them.
Graham McTavish
Rosalind Ayers
Rosalind doesn't look anything like Marlowe. In any case there's no way Statham and Mirren weren't the sole inspirations of those characters.
These are unforced errors, lmao. People stay telling on themselves.
Or maybe he looks like Graham McTavish who voiced him.That doesn't mean anything. Those "scans" are probably just a starting point and the character artists go from there. Clearly someone or multiple people just straight up ripped off a real life actress. It's not like they haven't done it before.
Cutter is a bald, white, action star looking dude with a British accent. Humm, I wonder who they are ripping off here
Marlowe is an older, but still attractive and also elegant British women. Nobody in real life like that
It's not like they would publicly admit "We totally ripped off Helen Mirren for Marlowe and didn't bother to get her permission first".
Maybe she's based on Rosalind Ayres who voiced her?
Your criteria is seriously as vague as bald and British and older yet attractive?
I doubt a recast ever would have happened. According to ND, they wanted to work with Laura Bailey and hired her before they finalized the character's design. So a "do-over" more likely results in Nadine just being a South African white woman.
For me, the bigger question is how they cast the role in future games. If don't recast, then I think they deserve a lot of shit for it.
For me, the bigger question is how they cast the role in future games. If don't recast, then I think they deserve a lot of shit for it.
Once they settled on the character model they should have recast, because that character model is awesome and it would have been great to have a coloured African play the character. Apartheid history of South Africa also makes it that much important that it was done this way.
And while they were at it, they should have not made Chloe half Indian because recasting would have probably not gone down as well with her.
Although, I do want to point out that white South African do have accent like Nadine's.
And while they were at it, they should have not made Chloe half Indian because recasting would have probably not gone down as well with her.
Although, I do want to point out that white South African do have accent like Nadine's.
