TBT to when Naughty Dog cast a white girl doing an accent as a South African black woman and said she was better than actual South African black women

[NinjaScooter]

I honestly don't see an issue here, if you are good enough to be selected for the voice cast and you do a good job of it, that's fair.

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If the playing fields are equal, sure. But they aren't. And probably never will be. Minorities have a much tougher time getting roles and representation in entertainment fields. So if a developer is going to go out of their way to create a minority voice, to add that diversity (and check off that PR box, lets be real) to their game, give the role and the opportunity to a minority. Do your really think almost every damn role goes to a white person because they are the "best for the job"?

 

[Kangi]

The fragile alt-right bombardment of TLoU2 and ND employees is not grounds to defend every bit of garbage ND has pulled. This was garbage, is garbage, and should not be tolerated.

BIPOC do not get equal opportunities in these industries. You'd throw them a bone of on-screen representation while making sure not a one of them gets paid for lending their voice to the role?

 

[Deleted member 864]

Yikes at that poll.

 

[$10 Bagel]

Are guys also against a Brit playing an American Spiderman?

An Aussie playing Thor?

Or British actors in lead American roles such as House?

How about Matt Damon playing a South African with the accent and all?

A British born (despite his heritage), authentic Brit accent and all playing Ghandi?

How about Americans playing all Asian roles in English dubs of games and movies?

Where do you draw the line?

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As far as I know getting an Asgardian to play Thor is kind of difficult and I assume the guy playing Ghandi is race accurate but not nationality which is fine.

 

[KhandoleezzaRice]

Yeah those folks that voted yes are awfully quiet. They know it's a bad take but their naughty gods can do no wrong. It's probably a lot of the same ppl that had no problem with the crunch culture at ND. This is a more sensitive subject though and they don't want to show their ass

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There are people who voted yes that shared their thoughts, up to you if you want to have a conversation about them.

 

[Shawt21]

Thinking about systemic issues doesn't seem to be Neil's strong suit as a writer. Apparently TLOU2's story and themes of revenge came from him accidentally seeing footage of a lynching as a kid. Like, bro, lynchings weren't a matter of personal grudges and revenge.

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Please, tell me that's not true and that you're mistaken for another game and man, maybe named Dreil Nuckmann? Please tell me that's not true.

 

[Muitnorts]

It's not ideal but I kind of bought their reasoning for Uncharted 4, of designing the character after the fact.
But it's still pushing it and especially continuing to use her and the character for Lost Legacy isn't nearly as excusable. Honestly I think she was the weakest main voice role anyway so it's not like anything much is gained from keeping her.

Chloe is definitely a different story. She was definitely not originally designed to be of Indian descent and when they added that backstory in LL the character was already firmly defined by the performance.

 

[Otnopolit]

Just wanted to say, I voted "No", but I don't think if you voted "Yes" you're a racist. I don't think it's an oft discussed issue (I certainly haven't faced it enough until very recently), and so there is room for growth here. I don't think there is room for growth if we tell each other they're racist for disagreeing about this.

 

[Barrel-kun]

There's a distinct difference between dubbing a Japanese game into English with non-Japanese actors, and a white woman doing performance capture of a black character.

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I would still argue its shitty though. You have a game like Persona 5 starring Japanese characters in Japan but the English dub cast is all white Americans. Just one of the reasons I prefer the original dub for being more authentic

 

[cantbebothered]

Thinking about systemic issues doesn't seem to be Neil's strong suit as a writer. Apparently TLOU2's story and themes of revenge came from him accidentally seeing footage of a lynching as a kid. Like, bro, lynchings weren't a matter of personal grudges and revenge.

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where is the source for that?

 

[ShutterMunster]

When this was first brought up years ago, I was of two minds about it. I thought a black actress should be the primary person given the role but then I thought about how so many Asian characters in anime, who share a big voice talent pull with videogames, are voices by white actors and that didn't seem so bad to me. But then I thought Scarlett Johansson being cast in the role of Major Kusanagi in Ghost in the Shell and as Asian person, I thought it was wrong because not only was an Asian character being changed into a white person but also because it was also denying Asian actors a role in a Hollywood blockbuster movie. So image for a lot of people, Nadine is the same way. There are so few black characters in games and few black actresses proportional to their white counterparts. By casting Laura Bailey as Nadine, that took away from under represented community a chance to have a major role in a big AAA game.

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Oh, I absolutely get it. The shine these guys get from being involved in a Naughty Dog game is immense. You can argue ND has made Nolan North, Troy Baker, and Ashley Johnson household names (in our industry, at least). But while this was bothersome, I don't find it nearly as egregious as something like GHOST IN THE SHELL where they swapped the ethnicity of its historically Japanese lead over bullshit box office reasons. Truly some "yeah, you colored folks aren't good enough to sell movies, so here's this popular white woman from the Marvel films you like." It was so infuriating to me. There's also another horrible Hollywood example involving Emma Stone, but I forget the name of the movie.

I do think those instances are a little different than this ND situation and far more black and white. Again, I hope the next ND joint features a person of color in the lead role. Their games are becoming landmark events and they can really propel careers.

 

[Heid]

Hmm I want to vote Yes? but personally I think its a bigger deal it went to Laura specifically. (give someone else a chance come on)

Its certainly evokes the form of Black Face but thats something that carries way heavier connotations in America right? (guessing thats where a lot of users are from here?) I don't think a lot people from else where in the world know about the racist shows those come from.

Also in America, a black guy with an English or French accent surprises people lol.

But to me, you can't hear someones race in their voice. Theres chinese with jamaican accents and filipino with canadian accents.

If theres some history to ND literally never hiring a black person or something then yeah ok that makes me feel like whats up but if a black guy can voice Kratos and no ones gives a fuck, why not the other way.

If this is wrong then oops ._.

 

[Memento]

This is so messed up. ND basically doesn't give a damn about diversity, they just want to act like they do.

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This is disingenous.

They need to be rightfully called out on stuff like this (they were heavily criticzed back then too), but this doesnt take away the fact that every single other black character on their games were voice by black actors/actress.

They even got the Marlene voice actress (black woman) to voice a white character in UC4.

Also... have you seen how much TLOU2 is being destroyed online because of representation (LGBT in this case)? I also dont know any case about white voive actors voicing the black characters in that game.

 

[Deleted member 15447]

Voice actors get cast for all sortA of characters white black etc. directors are just trying to match a voice with character that is the only goal. Black voice actors have played white characters white voice actors have played black characters it's about how the character voice matched with visual. Also multiple performers will play man character for gamplay etc. the idea that in voice the the actor should match the race of the character is ridiculous. I'm black and work in the industry and I don't have problem with this.

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That's an interesting and important post considering your experience.

I'd take that as more valuable than most of the armchair critics posting here.

 

[newmoneytrash]

Are guys also against a Brit playing an American Spiderman?

An Aussie playing Thor?

Or British actors in lead American roles such as House?

How about Matt Damon playing a South African with the accent and all?

A British born (despite his heritage), authentic Brit accent and all playing Ghandi?

How about Americans playing all Asian roles in English dubs of games and movies?

Where do you draw the line?

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you know this is disingenuous, why even post it

 

[PlanetSmasher]

It's not ideal but I kind of bought their reasoning for Uncharted 4, of designing the character after the fact.
But it's still pushing it and especially continuing to use her and the character for Lost Legacy isn't nearly as excusable. Honestly I think she was the weakest main voice role anyway so it's not like anything much is gained from keeping her.

Chloe is definitely a different story. She was definitely not originally designed to be of Indian descent and when they added that backstory in LL the character was already firmly defined by the performance.

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Yeah, I don't buy their argument. You don't write a character who grew up in South Africa in the '80s and '90s without knowing whether they're black or white, unless you're an idiot who didn't even Google the country you designed your character as being from before casting the character.

Neil fucked up and he needs to take the L.

 

[super etrian odyssey]

If the playing fields are equal, sure. But they aren't. And probably never will be. Minorities have a much tougher time getting roles and representation in entertainment fields. So if a developer is going to go out of their way to create a minority voice, to add that diversity (and check off that PR box, lets be real) to their game, give the role and the opportunity to a minority. Do your really think almost every damn role goes to a white person because they are the "best for the job"?

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i swear, people who voted Yes and are like "i don't get what the big deal is" are purely delusional and/or just willfully ignorant.

 

[discotheque]

you know... i have to ask. Knowing that the casting was done differently for Part II. What is the point of this thread now? Is this literally just to drum up controversy to keep the Naughty Dog harassment train going?

I really hope the intent of this thread is not cynical and is actually intended to highlight an industry wide issue.

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Becaue there's recently been a few instances of white voice actors stepping down from playing poc roles in cartoons. Seems relevant to talk about a similar scenario in the world of video games that happened only three years ago.

 

[vestan]

Please, tell me that's not true and that you're mistaken for another game and man, maybe named Dreil Nuckmann? Please tell me that's not true.

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where is the source for that?

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The Last of Us Part 2’s story was partly inspired by a lynching Neil Druckmann witnessed

According to its creators, The Last of Us Part 2 is a story about hate and the cost of revenge. In part, it was inspire…

www.vg247.com

 

[NinjaScooter]

Hmm I want to vote Yes? but personally I think its a bigger deal it went to Laura of all people. Give anyone else another chance.

Its certainly evokes the form of Black Face but thats something that carries way heavier connotations in America right? (guessing thats where a lot of users are from here?) I don't think a lot people from else where in the world know about the racist shows those come from.

Also in America, a black guy with an English or French accent surprises people lol.

But to me, you can't hear someones race in their voice. Theres chinese with jamaican accents and filipino with canadian accents.

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Its not about whether a white person can approximate the voice of a minority character, its not about ability. Its about representation and opportunity.

 

[srtrestre]

Yikes at that poll.

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Yeah, these results.......

 

[Majora's Mask]

Druckmann can do no wrong now since he dunked on some alt right trolls apparently.

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It certainly feels like that.

I love Naughty Dog, but it's been disappointing time and time again how htis forum treats the issues from their games differently than with other studios. This goes back to GAF, not necessarily an Era thing.

 

[Hugare]

They fucked up

But last week they've released what I consider to be one of the most diverse cast in terms of AAA games in the market

So I guess they've learned their lesson and then some

 

[reclaimerzzzzz]

Please, tell me that's not true and that you're mistaken for another game and man, maybe named Dreil Nuckmann? Please tell me that's not true.

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He, Neil, wanted to hurt the people doing the lynching, not that the guys doing the lynching were doing it for revenge.

where is the source for that?

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"I don't want to go into specifics about it, but I saw a video of a lynching when I was much younger" Druckmann said in a GQ interview. "It was like an actual… like a news thing. And then, feeling intense hatred for the people that committed the lynching and thinking, like, 'oh man if I could hurt these people in some horrible ways then I could.'"

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Source is https://www.gq-magazine.co.uk/culture/article/the-last-of-us-part-ii-neil-druckmann-interview

 

[Deleted member 15447]

Its certainly evokes the form of Black Face

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No. Please stop with this uneducated comment.

 

[dep9000]

There are people who voted yes that shared their thoughts, up to you if you want to have a conversation about them.

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I read through the first two pages. No one outright supported it. Maybe after? And maybe a couple of the total posts. 40% say it's okay in the poll. Maybe 1% of posts in this thread explain why it's okay. Hmmm...

 

[Jimnymebob]

Yes but that really isn't any different than what happened with Nadine, where they cast a white actress before defining the character, then made her a black character without changing the actress. Same goes for Chloe, they retconned her into being Indian but kept the white voice actress. There is 0 reason why they should recast Nadine but not Chloe, both characters have the same issue.

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No, there's absolutely no reason to recast Chloe. The character is still part Australian, so I don't really think it's fair to recast her after like 8 years in the role due to what is basically a retcon, unless you replace her with an Indian-Australian actress.
It's not the sae issue at all.

 

[Doc Laserstein]

directors are just trying to match a voice with character that is the only goal.

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Yeah, clearly. That's why it was imperative they hire an American woman to do a terrible South African accent.

 

[Deleted member 420]

laura bailey also voiced chinese woman faye lee in binary domain, and yes, faye lee has an accent.

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Holy shit this is offensive

 

[Nisaba]

What's up with all the 'Yes' responses in the poll? :/

But hopefully a recast can happen in the future.

 

[Crossing Eden]

Thinking about systemic issues doesn't seem to be Neil's strong suit as a writer. Apparently TLOU2's story and themes of revenge came from him accidentally seeing footage of a lynching as a kid. Like, bro, lynchings weren't a matter of personal grudges and revenge.

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People keep bringing up that tidbit from this article very disingenuously.

 

[CheapJi]

Im sorry but the concept of assuming a certain accent and voice to be for a race rather than a character sounds very stereotypical and racist to me ngl.
They just chose the voice they liked for the character.
they gave chances to people from other races but werent happy with the results. Doesnt mean they were doing a bad job. Just means it wasnt the certain voice they were looking for.
I dont understand why thats racist?

 

[PocketchangeTTV]

Stealth edit, whoops.

 

[Rosebud]

It certainly feels like that.

I love Naughty Dog, but it's been disappointing time and time again how htis forum treats the issues from their games differently than with other studios. This goes back to GAF, not necessarily an Era thing.

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They corrected the cast on the game released last week.

So this thread has nothing to be discussed other than "fuck ND" and "fans of ND are the worst"

 

[BackwoodsAltar]

Yeah they should have just recast. Glad they did a far better job with TLOU2.

 

[Stoof]

Are guys also against a Brit playing an American Spiderman?

An Aussie playing Thor?

Or British actors in lead American roles such as House?

How about Matt Damon playing a South African with the accent and all?

A British born (despite his heritage), authentic Brit accent and all playing Ghandi?

How about Americans playing all Asian roles in English dubs of games and movies?

Where do you draw the line?

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Is this some thinly veiled slippery slope nonsense? The line is that there should be more representation in the VO industry and if creators go out of their way to make POC characters but then cast white people to voice them, that sucks.

 

[dragonbane]

Absolutely not acceptable. The modelling excuse makes no sense either. If they modelled Nadine afterwards, they could have modelled a white woman instead, considering they already got so many of them in the game. And if they modelled her to be black afterwards, then they didn't even know if Bailey could pull off a convincing accent back when they casted her, so how did they figure she was a perfect Nadine at that point.

They knew Nadine was gonna be a black woman and still casted Bailey, as simple as that.

 

[Rosebud]

I'm bummed they didnt get a woman (or transwoman) to voice a certain character in last of us 2. Let's hope in the future all videogame with pick people of the right ethnicity and right sexual orientation to voice characters.

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?

Spoiler

The trans character is voiced by a trans actor

 

[Ghostswillpass]

Are guys also against a Brit playing an American Spiderman?

An Aussie playing Thor?

Or British actors in lead American roles such as House?

How about Matt Damon playing a South African with the accent and all?

A British born (despite his heritage), authentic Brit accent and all playing Ghandi?

How about Americans playing all Asian roles in English dubs of games and movies?

Where do you draw the line?

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I think the problem here is that there's barely any black characters in games, so in the rare occasion there is one featured prominently, it would be nice if the representation was completely there and not half hearted.

This sort of decision takes away from a diverse cast that could have brought something to the game.

 

[vestan]

But last week they've released what I consider to be one of the most diverse cast in terms of AAA games in the market

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is this a "you laugh you lose" thread?

because if it is i've defo lost ayooo 😂

 

[PlanetSmasher]

Im sorry but the concept of assuming a certain accent and voice to be for a race rather than a character sounds very stereotypical and racist to me ngl.
They just chose the voice they liked for the character.
they gave chances to people from other races but werent happy with the results. Doesnt mean they were doing a bad job. Just means it wasnt the certain voice they were looking for.
I dont understand why thats racist?

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She didn't even do a good South African accent. They just cast an actress they liked because she's popular and famous, and didn't give her a character she could play well.

 

[Gen X]

I had no idea who voiced Nadine when I completed Lost Legacy last weekend but I thought she sounded spot on.

 

[Eeyore]

Are guys also against a Brit playing an American Spiderman?

An Aussie playing Thor?

Or British actors in lead American roles such as House?

How about Matt Damon playing a South African with the accent and all?

A British born (despite his heritage), authentic Brit accent and all playing Ghandi?

How about Americans playing all Asian roles in English dubs of games and movies?

Where do you draw the line?

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You're missing the point in order to try to get a gotcha. It isn't about being 100% accurate, it's about encouraging and providing more roles for minorities. Especially considering in this situation, the character in question is black. But if your point is we should reevaluate how past casting choices were done, sure I think so too. It's 2020, what was considered okay in years past is probably not okay now.

I had no idea who voiced Nadine when I completed Lost Legacy last weekend but I thought she sounded spot on.

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Just curious where are you from?

 

[Deleted member 679]

I do believe they should probably recast her for any future roles, but I'm also gonna be huge hypocrite and say they should never change Chloe. Claudia Black is part of who the character is, to me. If they recast her, might as well not even use Chloe anymore.

Unless she doesn't want to do it, or can't for whatever reason, then it's more understandable.

 

[Skux]

As a minority I'm fine with it. They wanted Laura, they did the voice before finalising the character. This kind of stuff happens when hundreds of people are making a video game at the same time. Probably not what they intended but that's how it turned out.

 

[Blunt]

Black characters NEVER are casted for other races. This is straight up wrong.

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Phil LaMarr has played other races several times, he was Vamp in MGS and Samurai Jack, to name only two of his most notable performances.

 

[reclaimerzzzzz]

Yeah, I don't buy their argument. You don't write a character who grew up in South Africa in the '80s and '90s without knowing whether they're black or white, unless you're an idiot who didn't even Google the country you designed your character as being from before casting the character.

Neil fucked up and he needs to take the L.

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Because Nadine wasn't well thought out at all, she didn't exist until 2014 when he took over the project and Sam was transitioned into a 'good' guy and Nadine had to fill a bad guy hole. Troy Baker didn't even have to auditioned for Sam, Neil just called him saying he needed an actor and that was it. Another bad decision made in a time crunch I would say.

 

[Quad Lasers]

It was comical bullshit then and time has only made it worse.

It doesn't help that it's also partly fueled by what a cliquey shitshow the VA industry seems to be, which effectively contributes to the rolodex problem that suppresses outside diversity. Like, of course a AAA studio decided have Laura Bailey, Troy Baker and Nolan North headline as three of their leads. Of course.

 

[PlanetSmasher]

As a minority I'm fine with it. They wanted Laura, they did the voice before finalising the character. This kind of stuff happens when hundreds of people are making a video game at the same time. Probably not what they intended but that's how it turned out.

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They could've just...not had Laura voice a South African person if it was so important to give an already very well-fed actress another job.

 

[StormBrute]

Yeah, I can't believe they didn't catch more heat for this. I'm constantly bringing it up in snark about ND because it's absurd to me.

The extra funny part is that Naughty Dog had Merle Dandridge (who is mixed black-Asian), who is a fabulous actress, was in The Last of Us as Marlene (she was also the old Alyx Vance VA), was obviously known to them and experienced with their style of mocap and acting, and was in Uncharted 4... as the old white lady in the beginning flashback. Like, really?

I'm not saying she was the obvious or only pick to play Nadine, but just saying that they had obvious options that would be more fitting and they chose to ignore those options.