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NeonZ

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 28, 2017
9,372
Moreover, what about Mario + Rabbids? That is a crazy crossover but it's... Ok?

I don't get it honestly.

The quote in the op explains that pretty clearly? Rabbids aren't Mario characters and that seems to be fine. All the Mario stuff is still on-model in Mario + Rabbids. Just look at early concept art which points out that Ubisoft's attempts to actually change the Mario characters themselves were denied.

hjU0p73.jpg
 

KiNolin

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,296
I had lots of problems with SPM back in the day. Including the whole photoshop aesthetic that I didn't get. Thanks to the current circumstances I gave it another shot some time ago and holy fuck, does it feel refreshing to play a Mario game with non-standardized worlds, characters and stories. I still have some problems with the game, but Nintendo's handling of the franchise in the 2010s made me appreciate it so much more.
 

Deleted member 17388

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
12,994
I feel Super Paper Mario had an "Alternate universe" or "4th wall" or a general "Yeah, Physics!" aesthetic, it looked hella weird (in a nice way), and made sense in context.

I always thought the "4th wall" references were born from that idea.
 

Hello.

Member
Jan 20, 2020
188
Really? You see Super Paper Mario and do not see "Paper" on its design?
Yes, absolutely. It looks nothing like paper. The "flipping between 2D/3D" is probably the only thing close to it. Super Paper Mario's focus was more on the aesthetic of digital dimensions and geometric shapes.

Everyone is absoultely right. The first two games are simply called "Mario RPG" in Japan, and called "Paper Mario" elsewhere to pay homage to the artstyle. This wasn't double-downed until Sticker Star which took it to extremes.

TTYD was called "Mario RPG" and included references to paper, with the curse transformations and random screen transitions, and in-universe was used as a quirky joke that Mario was paper. The characters aren't even aware or acknowledge at any point in the game they are paper.
 

Bard

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
12,430
I want to know the thought behind a decision like this. It's pretty baffling to want to just keep everything so generic and not allow the team to get creative with the types of koopas, goombas, toads, and etc in these games. Just another way in which the charm and personality of the games seem to have gone down the drain. At least the writing is trying to salvage it but holy shit do they keep self sabotaging with these sorts of decisions.
 

SpankyDoodle

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,082
Weird rule but I guess I get it, seems like Nintendo wants 100% of the control over creating new Mario universe characters so they don't have to co-own anything (Geno/Mallow/Boshi/whatever) or deal with fans constantly begging for characters they didn't create (Waluigi) to show up in other games where they'd have to work out some kind of deal with whatever developer created them? I assume this probably extends to every IP they own too.

Bummer for sure but it's not gonna stop me from playing what might be a good game just because a character's skin is a normal Goomba instead of a Goomba with a bow on its head.
 

Kino

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,319
I wonder how much of this mandate affects storylines? I'm looking forward to OK, but I'm disappointed that Peach seems to be a nothing more than a damsel in distress yet again...much like in the general "lore" of the franchise.
 
Nov 2, 2017
6,804
Shibuya
It's really a shame that the one series that wielded this power so successfully couldn't get an exception to continue doing more original stuff. Paper Mario really was too good for this world. It's a shame they only ever made three games and then completely stopped.
 

Berordn

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 26, 2017
9,741
NoVA
I wonder how much of this mandate affects storylines? I'm looking forward to OK, but I'm disappointed that Peach seems to be a nothing more than a damsel in distress yet again...much like in the general "lore" of the franchise.
it seems like they still get to use her for stuff as long as she doesn't deviate too far from her standard design and characterization

she got to be playable in Mario & Rabbids and is very briefly one of the few NPCs that speak, but she isn't really doing anything out of the ordinary for her, being a support-esque character

but as a result, when you don't really have a need for that role in a game, all you can really do is lock her in a tower
 
Oct 27, 2017
1,296
We don't know if it's a mistake though.

I'm not really defending the practice, but executives probably think they need to be protective of the brand for it to remain valuable, thus no more stuff like, well, this:



Say goodbye to Mario Strikers too.

That's nothing compared to
cover_mm-10.jpg


And it was awesome btw, just like PM64 and TTYD.
 

Hello.

Member
Jan 20, 2020
188
I was there for this game's reception and the general take was that the game's story was too long winded and broke up the game's pacing since text and cutscenes would just go on for seemingly ever. But like, no one was asking for there to be no story. People generally agreed that the writing itself was relatively good but the game was just paced poorly for it.

If anything I think this is an excellent example of how a user poll data can be misread and misunderstood without context. I guarantee that if you ran a similar poll at the same time about the first two games' stories you'd get significantly more favorable numbers.
This is very true. I was also a bit young at the time, and did not submit feedback to Club Nintendo surveys. I loved Super Paper Mario even though it wasn't what I wanted at the time.

I didn't even know that Nintendo took these seriously. When I found out after reading Iwata Asks for Sticker Star, you bet your ass I went straight to the Club Nintendo survey to express my disappointment in hopes that they would reverse course.
 

Gartooth

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
8,440
The quote in the op explains that pretty clearly? Rabbids aren't Mario characters and that seems to be fine. All the Mario stuff is still on-model in Mario + Rabbids. Just look at early concept art which points out that Ubisoft's attempts to actually change the Mario characters themselves were denied.

hjU0p73.jpg

Hadn't seen this before, and honestly thank god Nintendo reigned that in. That Peach design is legitimately awful.
 

PancakeFlip

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,918
The quote in the op explains that pretty clearly? Rabbids aren't Mario characters and that seems to be fine. All the Mario stuff is still on-model in Mario + Rabbids. Just look at early concept art which points out that Ubisoft's attempts to actually change the Mario characters themselves were denied.

hjU0p73.jpg
It's been a while but I also remember the Mario characters not doing much of anything characteristically and being EXTREMELY reserved in the game. Like they were terrified to do anything at all with them even in terms of cut scenes.
 

ze_

Member
Oct 28, 2017
5,937
I always thought Super Paper Mario's poor Club Nintendo result for story was a matter of fans instead selecting gameplay as the element that concerned them the most, as the game was, of course, a major shift.
 

Squid Bunny

One Winged Slayer
Member
Jun 11, 2018
5,340
Nintendo hated Super Paper Mario because it implied Mario should go to Hell, change my mind.

(literally one of the coolest worlds ever in a PM game though)
 

Kino

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,319
it seems like they still get to use her for stuff as long as she doesn't deviate too far from her standard design and characterization

she got to be playable in Mario & Rabbids and is very briefly one of the few NPCs that speak, but she isn't really doing anything out of the ordinary for her, being a support-esque character

but as a result, when you don't really have a need for that role in a game, all you can really do is lock her in a tower
That would be so unfortunate. The peach intermissions were my fav parts of 64/TTYD and playing as her was even better in Super.
 

RedDevil

Member
Dec 25, 2017
4,121
What part of Super Paper Mario leans on the "Paper" aspect? It's probably the furthest removed game in the series from that tbh.

The world design, specially the platforms.

Yes, absolutely. It looks nothing like paper. The "flipping between 2D/3D" is probably the only thing close to it. Super Paper Mario's focus was more on the aesthetic of digital dimensions and geometric shapes.

Everyone is absoultely right. The first two games are simply called "Mario RPG" in Japan, and called "Paper Mario" elsewhere to pay homage to the artstyle. This wasn't double-downed until Sticker Star which took it to extremes.

TTYD was called "Mario RPG" and included references to paper, with the curse transformations and random screen transitions, and in-universe was used as a quirky joke that Mario was paper. The characters aren't even aware or acknowledge at any point in the game they are paper.

It's "Paper Mario RPG" actually... And the first one was called Mario Story...

And even in Japan the marketing went all on the paper stuff...

 

HammerFace

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
2,227
I don't get why that SuperStar Saga enemy change stuff is getting passed around like a horror story as if they butchered every character in the game and not like, just a small handful because of the asset resuse with the previous two games. They even made a trio of new characters for the BIS remake's extra mode.


Removing all the original characters you're left with like maybe 10-12 characters that are variations on previously established ones. A good chunk of those are either changed completely, or have been adjusted to fit in line with their more standard appearance. I know its asset reuse, but its still a shame to see them get altered when they looked fantastic in the original. Makes me wish my copy of Super Star Saga wasn't stolen when I was a kid.
 

BGBW

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,273
Super Paper Mario was heavily criticised fro being text heavy back in the day so I never understand why people think it was unique to the Club Nintendo surveys. It's kind of like how Pokémon fans laugh at IGN complaints about too much water in Ruby and Sapphire despite this being a common complaint back in the day too. If it doesn't suit the narrative fans basically distort history to suit their arguments.
 

Shoichi

Member
Jan 10, 2018
10,453
Why Nintendo....?

They are still able to create original characters though. It just needs to not be part of the Mario universe. Make a Super Mario RPG 2 sequel game then....Geno, Mallow, etc. are their own designs...
 
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Big One

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,277
I'm confused by this. There's still original characters in the new Paper Mario games they're just uninspired and bland. I don't see what's so difficult going back to something like Super Paper Mario for example which kept the Mario characters in line with the usual stuff but added a whole cast of brand new characters too.
 

Dark Cloud

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
61,087
I'm confused by this. There's still original characters in the new Paper Mario games they're just uninspired and bland. I don't see what's so difficult going back to something like Super Paper Mario for example which kept the Mario characters in line with the usual stuff but added a whole cast of brand new characters too.
I guess those characters were "too out there".
 

laziboi

Alt-account
Banned
Oct 25, 2019
1,918
Your Anus
User Banned (5 Days) - Hostility
... what am I missing here? The quote literally says the opposite of what you're claiming, that they can and do create original characters.
This is more than likely a translation error. Once Again, ERA jumps to conclusions because they can't actually read the interview in context.

we need to create original characters with designs that don't involve the Mario universe at all, like we've done with Olly and the stationery bosses.

This reads like they can't just slap a new hairstyle on a Toad and call it a day like the past games. They need to create original designs and characters that aren't based on any existing Mario character. So no, Nintendo isn't forbidding them from making original characters at all dumbasses, the team is just no longer able to drastically alter established designs like they used to.
 

Xterrian

Member
Apr 20, 2018
2,795
Didn't Dream Team have pretty unique enemies and species? I wonder why Sticker Star followed this rule but not DT, which came out almost a year after.
 

Horohorohoro

Member
Jan 28, 2019
6,723
This is more than likely a translation error. Once Again, ERA jumps to conclusions because they can't actually read the interview in context.



This reads like they can't just slap a new hairstyle on a Toad and call it a day like the past games. They need to create original designs and characters that aren't based on any existing Mario character. So no, Nintendo isn't forbidding them from making original characters at all dumbasses, the team is just no longer able to drastically alter established designs like they used to.
You're misreading peoples' issues with this and calling them dumbasses for it. Even slapping hairstyles on Toads, for example since this is what you brought up, goes a long way in making the world feel more unique (not to mention it adds female NPCs, of which there are like 3 in Origami King lol)
 

Kazooie

Member
Jul 17, 2019
5,014
At this point, IS should ask to develop a new serie of "RPGs" with their style of writing and adventure bits.

I don't think it will work, because Mario sells a lot, but creative freedom should be always there. If Nintendo is over-protective of the Mario characters (which I dunno, they killed Mario and Luigi during the Smash trailers), then maybe they should use them for the games with no story focus at this point.
Every new character the could create in this series, they could also create in Paper Mario though.
 

RagnarokX

Member
Oct 26, 2017
15,754
I feel this is more on Tanabe's interpretation of the guidelines than the guidelines themselves. The guidelines as they've been described allow for more than what than what they've been doing. Hell, even in the SS Iwata Asks Miyamoto's reasoning for wanting them to use Mario characters was so that players don't get confused on how to fight enemies, which more boiled down to "make sure its form fits its function." Which probably stemmed from Super Paper Mario having confusing enemy designs. It didn't really make sense why this spilled over outside of battle, or why Tanabe chose to only use generic Toads.

Later in the same Iwata Asks where they talk about Miyamoto asking them to only use Mario characters, they talk about these enemies from Sticker Star:

efd9iq3.png


Tanabe: There's a human like Koopa Troopa with long arms and legs that comes along on all fours. It's really creepy.
Igata: When I had that checked, they said it was "gross," and we thought, "Yes!"
Aoyama: At first, we took that as praise, but unfortunately, they meant exactly what they said!
Everyone: (laughs)
Igata: After that, we put forth all kinds of designs, but the more Super Mario-like it became, the less it seemed ancient, and if we got realistic, it turned out to be something totally different.
Kudo: When they were realistic, those Koopa Troopas just looked like shiitake mushrooms!
Igata: Yeah. (laughs) In the end, while we made various designs, we showed the original design to Miyamoto-san, and he was happy, like, "Why don't you make it even more disgusting?" So in the end the original design was ok.
 

laziboi

Alt-account
Banned
Oct 25, 2019
1,918
Your Anus
You're misreading peoples' issues with this and calling them dumbasses for it. Even slapping hairstyles on Toads, for example since this is what you brought up, goes a long way in making the world feel more unique (not to mention it adds female NPCs, of which there are like 3 in Origami King lol)

I'm not saying it isn't disappointing. I'm just pointing out that it's not as draconian as you people want to believe it is.
 
OP
OP
TheDinoman

TheDinoman

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,093
The entire modern "New Super Mario Bros." style can be traced to Super Mario 64 DS, which the original New Super Mario Bros. game shares a lot of assets with.

Honestly, some of the artistic decisions in SM64DS were pretty much a warning sign from the start.

Like, take a look at what happened with Dorrie.

EVAV8QyUMAIJsSH.jpg

A pretty odd, out of place looking creature, isn't she?

So they ended up santizing her for the DS remake and made her look like a generic Mario character

SMODorrieModel.png

(this model above is from odyssey but it's literally the same exact design from sm64ds so whatever)
 

Entryhazard

One Winged Slayer
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,843
User warned: hostility
This is more than likely a translation error. Once Again, ERA jumps to conclusions because they can't actually read the interview in context.



This reads like they can't just slap a new hairstyle on a Toad and call it a day like the past games. They need to create original designs and characters that aren't based on any existing Mario character. So no, Nintendo isn't forbidding them from making original characters at all dumbasses, the team is just no longer able to drastically alter established designs like they used to.
You think we aren't talking about that, dumbass?
pbp7ps68ury41.png

Basically the soul vs soulless meme but unironically
 

Deleted member 17388

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
12,994
I'm confused by this. There's still original characters in the new Paper Mario games they're just uninspired and bland. I don't see what's so difficult going back to something like Super Paper Mario for example which kept the Mario characters in line with the usual stuff but added a whole cast of brand new characters too.
I understand that while visually they have to be radically different to dissociate themselves from existing Mario characters (They are origami vs. 2D Paper), better with an in-universe reason to look different (Origami doesn't belong in the Paper Mario universe), they can't be a wild departure from the shared look of the Mario series (The origami-ed Mario characters look closely to their standard design).

- The office appliances are real-life objects that have personalities; easy to tell they're not part of the Mario universe: OK
- A green goomba with a different body-type, name, or hair: Not OK
- A goomba with sunglasses, when it makes sense in context (e.g. It lives in a desert): OK
- Origami variations of Mario characters: OK (Since they end-up resembling Mario 3D models closely, makes sense in context)
- Origami original characters: OK (Minimal, the context of their appearance is that they don't belong in the Mario universe, one-off)
- Original character that are said to be part of the Mario universe, but from an unseen part, and deviate too much from established artstyle: Not OK

It'd be so interesting to see the development, design, and legal documents for these games :v