Oh wow that's gross. I was flashed by an adult man on the street when I was in 7th grade, so I can definitely relate to your friend. It was genuinely traumatizing. Such a fucking disgusting trope.
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[Tales of Arise Spoilers] It's 2021 and we're still be subjected to terrible hot springs scenes.
- Thread starter Garrod Ran
- Start date
Edit: Aight I know where this usually goes, that's on me.
Yes you can like JRPGs and not be explicitly in support of Creepy Anime Bullshit, that doesn't suddenly mean Creepy Anime Bullshit needs to be a constant background radiation in this kind of game all the time and anyone who's fine with it, as in explicitly, openly in favour of it as opposed to begrudgingly tolerating it like the rest of us, should probably stop being a main market focus.
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I'm disappointed but not surprised.
I've said this before, but the fundamental issue with fanservice in the genre is that a JRPG where the developers put their heart and soul into it is not guaranteed to be a success, and game development is expensive. Conversely, a JRPG with waifus and fanservice will at the very least capture the otaku fanbase, resulting in a consistent source of revenue with little regard to the quality of the actual game itself - and even many good JRPGs feel the urge to shove in pointless anime tropes and fanservice to capture that market and guarantee some success for itself.
When we will get a JRPG that will handle fanservice tastefully, we don't know.
I've said this before, but the fundamental issue with fanservice in the genre is that a JRPG where the developers put their heart and soul into it is not guaranteed to be a success, and game development is expensive. Conversely, a JRPG with waifus and fanservice will at the very least capture the otaku fanbase, resulting in a consistent source of revenue with little regard to the quality of the actual game itself - and even many good JRPGs feel the urge to shove in pointless anime tropes and fanservice to capture that market and guarantee some success for itself.
When we will get a JRPG that will handle fanservice tastefully, we don't know.
That's not really going to stop it. Anime fandom has been growing year over year and it has no problem with the sexism. Most of the people who have an issue with this kind of stuff are already wary of anime-like art style
This shit sucks.
It doesn't matter how good the graphics are or how interesting the story is, they GOTTA pretend it's the 90s again with this tropey bullshit. I'm so god damn tired of it.
Was looking forward to buying this, and I doubt this one scene ruins the entire game, but everything about the scene (the pacing of the dialog, the shots, the characters themselves) is just SO off-putting.
If you're going to pander to this shitty trope at least try to comment on it or invert it or something? Ugh.
It doesn't matter how good the graphics are or how interesting the story is, they GOTTA pretend it's the 90s again with this tropey bullshit. I'm so god damn tired of it.
Was looking forward to buying this, and I doubt this one scene ruins the entire game, but everything about the scene (the pacing of the dialog, the shots, the characters themselves) is just SO off-putting.
If you're going to pander to this shitty trope at least try to comment on it or invert it or something? Ugh.
User Banned (Permanent): Dismissing Concerns Around Sexism; Prior Severe Bans for Excusing Support of Bigotry and Downplaying Harassment
It's a troupe in Japanese anime. Terrible through our western lens but we have to acknowledge our cultural biases for things that aren't made with us in mind. We may not laugh at it but in Japan they may find it way funnier than us since bath houses are more prevalent.
Why's anyone gotta find perving on a 14 year old funny
Why's anyone gotta find it funny when a dude goes "I'm a real man so I'm gonna go sexually harass our friends"
Tales loves its anime tropes. Even if presented in a comedic nature and its supposed to be light-hearted, but still creepy AF. Any guy would have noticed his towel missing, but they ran with it anyway. Will they ever stop using a hot springs scene? After a while, its not even funny.
Was wondering how long it would take until this excuse would be brought up. At least we made it to the 2nd page!
Sexual harassment doesn't get to hide behind "cultural biases".
"Forgetting" your towel and then exposing yourself to a group of young women is something I'd expect a 12 year old to find funny.
The "rite of manhood" stuff is similarly embarrassing, lighthearted tone or not.
It's pretty cringey.
The "rite of manhood" stuff is similarly embarrassing, lighthearted tone or not.
It's pretty cringey.
Maybe the folks in Japan who continue to make scenes like this need to grow the fuck up.
It's not an excuse. I don't find it funny either. I hate any form of fan service because I feel it takes away from the more serious story telling at play. But when I see people say "Japanese media needs to catch up" that reaks of the same cultural biases I've been hearing from people my whole life talking down on aspects of black culture they may not understand. I'm just saying that while I do agree from my perspective it is gross, fanservice in general and reductive, I must acknowledge I have a specific lens growing up in the USA I may not understand from a content creator in Japan. Like over here we find gross shit funny for some reason and I know that confuses other countries which may find a more dry humor funny. It's worth a study than a blanket statement to me.
You'd get arrested for like most of the shit "pervert characters" do in anime tho.
Yeah this shit is weak. Hope it goes away soon. It's not funny, entertaining or amusing. It's boring and dumb and creepy. Just get it out of here.
Yeah, sexually harassing a 14 year old girl is just some funny thing we are misunderstanding from our biased western eyes…🙄
You are probably right. As someone who grew up reading manga since the early 90s, it took me till my early, mid 20s to realised how messed up some of these tropes were. Like the whole Doraemon trope of Shizuka getting seen while taken baths didn't feel creepy to me because I started reading the manga since I was 5 years old. The people who are still making Doraemon need to realised how outdated some of their material is and start to not continue these tropes.
I do wonder if the average, non otaku teen in Japan still think this whole trope is still funny, or that it's just middle age writers refusing to recognise the harm these tropes can bring because "it was ok when they were kids".
It is not cultural biases to say that having scenes showing a 14 year old getting exposed to genitals is problematic. Nor the encouragement of young men to peep as a rite of passage. Normalising these acts make young boys and men think that it is funny or ok to expose themselves or to peep at girls. This is not just people saying that they don't get cultural specific jokes. It is harmful because it leads to actual real victims of sexual crimes.
I agree, but art is a window into the mind of a creator and also the culture that brought them up. Which is why I said that we should try to understand why it is so prevalent as opposed to assuming we have the "better" culture. Cause if you dive into the numbers Japan has a MUCH lower sexual assault rate than the US. So I'm just saying let's not cast a wide net of judgement of a whole culture as if we are much better off.
sorry a comment that said they need to catch up just really bothered me a lot.
Is it actually lower or is it lower due to a lack of reporting? Because for one example, Japan has a very big issue with groping on trains to the point that certain lines made female-only passenger cars to keep women from being assaulted.
Lack of reporting is a problem here too. But I don't deny it's probably lower than reported, but it's also here too so I can only go off reported numbers. It the trains in NYC are disgusting. I genuinely have to stay on Face time with my gf due to how many creeps there are constantly and Shri boy is comfortable when we are on the phone during her commute.
No one said anything about having a better culture. I did a quick rescan of the first pages and your post is the first one bringing up Japan and their culture as a whole.
Most everyone else has commented about it being a tired out dated trope in either anime or JRPGs. We can comment and critique content creators without bringing in an entire country's culture into it.
I guess that's true, but it could be like the persona fanbase where the majority of the base are otaku fans that like shipping and waifus. I don't get why they had to have this scene the way it was, couldn't they have just done it like Valkyria chronicles 1 beach scene? Why do they think having fanservice has to be pervy.
Regardless of whether Japan has a lower sexual assault rate than the US or anywhere else, the problems with the trope doesn't go away.
It's almost like you are suggesting that the trope is ok because Japan may have a lower sexual assault rate, and that people from other cultures should not criticise the trope if they have a higher sexual assault rate.
it's too bad they're no longer releasing arise outside of japan then
The "joke" isn't "ah yes we have bathhouses, they are humorous, foreigners won't understand." The "joke" is the sexual harassment - and it's absolutely a trope you can find associated in plenty of our media that had culturally been shifted from acceptably funny to quite rightly condemned as gross and toxic. There's no need to defend it because of our cultural biases, you can reasonably assume no culture has women who enjoy being targeted by sexual harassment.
I criticized the troupe myself. I just said it's worth studying and discussing further than just saying that they need to catch up to us. Cause we have a TON of disgusting troupes as well. My only point is let's understand what the significance of the troupe means to them culturally and move forward from there instead of going "these creators are disgusting pervs who are beneath us." I'm not saying this is exactly what you are saying but often people will say things they don't know come off as condescending that are.
Are you saying it's too complex and fascinating to criticize? It's too advanced for anyone to adequately understand its intention and implications in the decades its been a lazy, boring, pandering trope? Worthy of "study"?
User Banned (3 Months): Concern Trolling Around Concerns of Sexism; Prior Ban for Inflammatory Generalization
There is a massive part of this trope that just doesn't work for outside Japan and I wonder if it should start being cut entirely. I know I know -but my censorship!- but is it worth the hassle anymore?
This is basically what I was going to say.
Media topes differ across the globe. The whole hot springs trip is a cultural thing that most Japanese people can relate too. The hijinks aspect of ease dropping or peeking is the joke inside something everyone relates too. Its a Japanese entertainment gag that existed even before anime and general tv, and its not going anywhere.
We don't have to like it and can point it out as problematic in our own cultural gaze but we can discuss it without some on era sliding into that "our culture is better than this, they should be doing things like us, its -insert year- barbarians! pedos and perverts!" style of posting that you'd think we would be more aware/sensitive about.
This is basically what I was going to say.
Media topes differ across the globe. The whole hot springs trip is a cultural thing that most Japanese people can relate too. The hijinks aspect of ease dropping or peeking is the joke inside something everyone relates too. Its a Japanese entertainment gag that existed even before anime and general tv, and its not going anywhere.
We don't have to like it and can point it out as problematic in our own cultural gaze but we can discuss it without some on era sliding into that "our culture is better than this, they should be doing things like us, its -insert year- barbarians! pedos and perverts!" style of posting that you'd think we would be more aware/sensitive about.
Destiny remake has it, but if I remember its something with Leon being confused with being a girl or something. This was over a decade ago so I barely remember it.
What hassle? This is the only place where I've seen anyone complain about it. The anime fandom at large either likes this stuff or is completely indifferent to it.
Like I said in a previous post, I was exposed to this trope via Doraemon and never thought much about similar tropes in the manga I consumed between the age of 5 to say 22 to 25 years old. I don't think writers necessarily use this trope comically to dog whistle to pedophiles or sex offenders. It seems like historically this could really be seen innocently as a joke trope. But it was never funny and appropriate, kind of like outdated waetern comedians still thinking racist and sexist jokes are funny. It can be both cultural and problematic and people from within and outside the culture can criticise and tear things down. No one who is arguing in good faith in this thread has said that Japanese culture is pervy or beneath anyone else. A lot of us love Japanese games and Japanese media and that's why we don't want games to have content that is done at the expense of victims and content that is perpeting toxic masculinity and toxic culture. I love Japanese manga and games and I want these tropes to stop.
This👆. "It is not sexual harassment, it's just deeply Japanese."
User Banned (1 Month): Concern Trolling Around Concerns of Sexism
I wanted to higlight your post. It's very metered response that puts things into perspective.
I would understand if it began to be cut in certain localizations. I mean, we cut content in media that goes to China, or even in japan, so I wouldn't really be against it if it was cut in American versions...but your point to bathhouses and bathhouse hijinx being something that Americans don't really understand is kind of what my point was. We have hijinx and hijinx that play on the sexual aspects of human nature. For the most part bathhouse hijinx usually involve people of similar ages. I think to MHA or Naruto which all had them. I don't find them funny personally, but on the flip side theres a ton in those shows that my mother would watch and not find funny either. I just think we should be sensative when looking at these things through our western gaze and not judging it as wrong and our take on things as right. Then when people get extra defensive if your take isn't "this is 100% unacceptable, remove it" is when the people who do mean right become blinded by their own cultural biases by trying to be more accepting. My whole point is lets understand why these are so prevalent in so much of their media going back to even when they were doing art work on woodblocks.
You're right, ERA is one of the few places that will have a band of people stand out and say they don't like it, which is great to have. But like you said, and like ERA itself, its a drop in the pool that is gamers. It was more a rhetorical statement.
I'm just saying us as a western audience, and the non poc who are critiquing, have to be extremely careful and diligent when critiquing and discussing another's culture and humor. Because of the history of cultural imperialism and our country history of down playing other peoples culture as lesser than. I spent my whole life listening to people talk about how hip hop is terrible, sexist, racist or how (insert black film here) is ghetto, poorly written etc without trying to understand the culture that produced the content. So I'm saying when a trope is consistent in a form of media/art from another culture, lets understand why it's there, while acknowledging it as unacceptable here, but also understanding that the culture to where it came from is different and why is it so prevalent there.