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Deleted member 51789

User requested account closure
Banned
Jan 9, 2019
3,705
Hey, so now that we've reached that sweet spot where the Sword & Shield controversies are mostly blown over though still fresh in our minds, I have to ask — is getting flooded with replies on Twitter "harassment"? Like, I get and totally agree that some people on that side of the discussion took things way too far and it's not necessary to drudge that all up again, but I was seeing replies to Masuda's tweets unrelated to Pokémon (as well as tweets related to Pokémon both by employees and promotional accounts) referred to as one of those things where the criticism can't be taken seriously because it's gone too far, and even that it's harassment. I am, with complete sincerity, asking someone to explain to me why that was and continues to be framed in that way. I must be out of step with something because it seems almost like an accepted fact.

To be clear, I'm not including blatant personal attacks. Anyone throwing insults or worse around deserves to be criticized for that behaviour, of course. But I truly fail to see how a large swath of people reaching out to Masuda or official accounts via social media to express disappointment in their work somehow constitutes harassment. Like, that's what social media is for. Interacting with the public is the only reason to have a public social media account. Again, I'm not defending people who take things to an extreme. But even hypothetically, some variation of, "Pokémon is shit now! Bring back the cut Pokémon or we boycott! #dexit" falls outside of the realm of harassment to me. Is it a pleasant interaction? Of course not. And I would assume the amount of these messages contributes to the perception of them as harassment, but then I can't reconcile that with the notion that they will be dismissed outright merely on the basis of the disrespectful nature of the criticism or the channel through which it is delivered. Surely a media conglomerate as large as TPCi operates in a colder, more capital-driven fashion than such a move would imply.

I should also mention that I absolutely understand that the criticisms are rooted in upper management decisions, and developers and other employees without sway in that process could very well be (and likely are) demoralized by that negativity, which directly undermines such a movement. And that sucks for everyone! But harassment? We've all heard the stories of bad actors doing bad things in the midst of the controversy, and those absolutely constitute harassment (and slander and libel.) But somebody getting ratio'd? That's harassment?

Maybe I'm just picking at things said when emotions were running high, or a rhetorical dramatization... Maybe it is categorically harassment and I'm dead wrong! I don't know. Which is why I've gotta ask. And I realize now that I probably missed the boat for this discussion, because it's neutered without actual posts to point to, but the absolute chaos in the pre-release threads meant there was little room for my glorified tangent (and the thought of trudging through them for evidence gives me a migraine, not to mention the inevitable argument that would follow.) Can anyone humour me and sort me out on this one? Completely sincere here. This has been a consistent element of Sword & Shield discussion on ERA that I've been waiting to ask about for too long.
Getting flooded with replies about Pokemon to tweets that don't mention the game probably is, and I'd also describe the same person replying to every single tweet a person makes as some kind of harassment (it's not as if the person tweeting originally has done anything egregiously wrong as can be the case with pile-ons)

But general protestation to Pokemon related tweets is probably fine, as long as it isn't extreme.
 
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Ramsay

Member
Jul 2, 2019
3,623
Australia
With regards to the games being unfinished:

I've heard a lot of people in this thread (and other Pokemon threads) thinking that Pokemon having longer development cycle would halt the series' decline in quality.

While there undoubtedly is an issue with Pokemon games being rushed, the effect of Pokemon being rushed on the declining quality of the series has been relatively muted.

The real issue Pokemon has isn't time or development resources. It's the fact that Gamefreak's current design philosophy, on a fundamental level, is antithetical to what made the series good to begin with.

What made the older games (Gen 4 especially) good were three things:
  • Exploration: The older games had sprawling routes with numerous paths, which took a long time to navigate, and which exploring these routes thoroughly would give substantial rewards (instead of the nothing in the Wild Area). IIRC, the last time we got a proper dungeon (not including remakes) for a Legendary Pokemon would be X/Y for Zygarde.
  • Content: Remember the Battle Frontier? Super Contests? The Pokeathlon? Optional dungeons? Gamefreak sure doesn't.
  • Difficulty: The older games weren't hard, by any means, but they, at the very least, demanded your respect. Route trainers often actually used more than two Pokemon, boss teams were competently designed, and final bosses such as Cynthia and Ghetsis were made memorable by virtue of being legitimately difficult. None of the characters since Gen 6 except for maybe Raihan were remotely memorable, in contrast.
Instead, Gamefreak's recent design philosophy has been focused on two things: accessibility, and the story.

If Celeste is any indication, there are ways to improve a game's accessibility without hacking away at your level and boss design (this is also a major issue with Mario Odyssey).

Gamefreak's focus on the story of the newer Pokemon games falls apart for two reasons. The first is that having a focus on the story demands that your game be linear - which undermines the potential for exploration in a Pokemon game - and the more a Pokemon game wastes your time with cutscenes, the less exploration is in said Pokemon game.

This would be tolerable if the characters were as good as the casts from Xenoblade 1 or Three Houses. The entire cast of Sword and Shield have less depth than a single side character from the two aforementioned games. This means that instead of exploring the nuances of interesting characters, the cutscenes in Pokemon games solely serve as a means to waste a player's time. Them being unskippable doesn't help.

The issue isn't whether Gamefreak can to make a Pokemon game on par with Gen 4 or 5 - it's whether Gamefreak wants to. As such, you could give Gamefreak 7 years and $1 billion to develop the next set of Pokemon games, and they will still turn out mediocre at best.
 

KillstealWolf

One Winged Slayer
Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
16,097
In some ways, Sword & Shield's story is the most realistic, much to its detriment.

Rather than being a kid who shows up and saves the world, you're a kid who wants to help but keeps getting dismissed to "leave it to the adults".

Most realistic

But you still team to get to team up with Sword/Shield Doggo and save the world from the day of darkness and it's super big dragon that was introduced maybe 10 minutes earlier in the game.

Heck, your underachieving rival friend somehow tames the other dog that isn't on your box. I'm debating if that's more unbelievable than Tierno getting a medal for saving the region or not.
 
Jun 2, 2019
4,947
I'm asking why Masuda getting hundreds of Dexit-centric replies on Twitter constitutes harassment

Getting those replies on random tweets on his personal account, even on his brithday or holidays? Yeah, i wonder too.

But you still team to get to team up with Sword/Shield Doggo and save the world from the day of darkness and it's super big dragon that was introduced maybe 10 minutes earlier in the game.

Not really? Eternatus is The long night (La larga noche here in Spain, no idea how that was called in other regions), he's part of the region mythos, and he's presented along the Sword and Shield hero. Also, it's made more and more clear as you advance through the game that you and Hop are the equivalent to the heroes of the myth, wich is made clear once Zacian and Zamazenta appear to defeat Eternatus (Because, unlike in other games, you can't do jack shit agaisnt him)

Also Hop is not really underachieving, he's the strongest aspirant right behind you, he's the final peeble on the road before fighting the champion, and he's one of the hero's successor.

Heck, your underachieving rival friend somehow tames the other dog that isn't on your box. I'm debating if that's more unbelievable than Tierno getting a medal for saving the region or not.

"Somehow"

From the start, we're shown that he has a knack for befriending and protecting Pokémon, and he fought alongside the legendary wolf he later "tames"

Story wasn't so hard to follow that you'd miss such details, dude.

It's shitty! Totally. Granted, 100%. I'm not questioning that.

It was straight up harassement, mate
 
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Zellia

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,769
UK
As expected, vindication for their current course. I'll keep my expectations low for the series from now on.
 

Aleh

Member
Oct 27, 2017
16,298
They have no justification to significantly change the current formula and design trends without sales hanging over their head. Simple as that.
But they still do. SM shook up the story formula and SWSH brought new things like overworld encounters and open areas regardless of what the execution was, because they were very requested by the fanbase
 

Deleted member 17402

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
7,125
Haven't bought either game yet. I know there's DLC out for it. Is it worth it? Does that mean I have to spend $80+ to get all the available Pokémon for these games?
 

Phellps

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,810
dictionary.cambridge.org

harassment

1. behaviour that annoys or upsets someone: 2. behavior that annoys or upsets…

I see some people struggle with the concept.
 

Miller

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
1,238
dictionary.cambridge.org

harassment

assédio, assédio [masculine]. Learn more in the Cambridge English-Portuguese Dictionary.

I see some people struggle with the concept.

By that definition, you've just harassed me.

I see now that my issue wasn't that harassment was being used incorrectly, but rather that I had assigned disturbing connotations to the word unnecessarily, and that the accusation of harassment being levied at those who tweeted Masuda and others wasn't unfair but rather toothless. The way that those tweets are framed in these discussions was confirming my makeshift definition of the word. I truly believed it to be something much more heinous. But if harassing behaviour is simply something that causes annoyance, then we are all perpetually harassed. I guess I'd just misunderstood. That's a little embarrassing.

Can't say that's the outcome I expected, but I'll take it. Thanks for your help!
 

Aleh

Member
Oct 27, 2017
16,298
Haven't bought either game yet. I know there's DLC out for it. Is it worth it? Does that mean I have to spend $80+ to get all the available Pokémon for these games?
The DLC isn't out yet, first expansion is in June and the second is in the fall. You don't have to buy the DLC to get the added Pokémon though as you can trade from others, join their raids even without the dlc, and transfer from Home
 

Miller

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
1,238
It was straight up harassement, mate

Not to be pedantic, but I don't see the distinction between harassment and being shitty if harassment means "behaviour that annoys or upsets someone." They're being rude, upsetting, annoying, irritating, shitty. Isn't that harassment? I only drew a line between the two because I didn't know that harassment is no more heinous than those things. If you believe replying to someone's tweet on their birthday with unrelated, rude noise (but nothing too extreme, which I made clear in my original post) is something more egregious than "shitty" behaviour, then you're actually arguing that it wasn't straight up harassement, mate
 

Kass15

Member
Jan 14, 2018
1,147
Good for them. Story was really bad - so bad that it made the main campaign feel like a slog. Having said that - new Pokémon are awesome, music was decent and loved seeing the Pokémon in the wild area. Still looking forward to the expansions and hopeful for the next installment to see the criticisms and develop an even better game.
 

NotLiquid

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
34,770
Congrats to Nintendo and Game Freak, enjoyed the game quite a lot in spite of its flaws.
 

Merc_

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 28, 2017
6,536
Diamond and Pearl selling 17m+ didn't stop them from improving with Platinum, HGSS, BW and so on
The franchise has pretty much always sold extremely well. If things really worked the way folks around here say then every game would just be Gen 1.
 

Nightbird

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
3,780
Germany
It depends on what you account for improvement from X&Y to Sun&Moon, style and overall charm of the game ? sure, big improvement. Level Design ? not so much...

I disagree, the Level Design was a massive improvement in Sun and Moon, I'd argue it was even better than what we got in Sword and Shield.

The Islands were beatufil and great to explore, the problem was that the game did not let you enjoy the game at your own pace (except if you wanted to take it even slower).

The biggest issue with Sun and Moon was that it loved to stop the player all the time. Because of that I can't ever deny it when someone says they hated the game because it was a slog.
It's the reason why I can only re-experience the game via Youtube.

Just the ability to skip Dialoge and Cutscenes alone would have made Sun and Moon the by far best games among the 3D ones.
But as it is right now, Gens 8 and 6 are much more "pleasant" to play than Gen 7 sadly.
 

Luke88

One Winged Slayer
Member
Dec 29, 2018
2,560
Italy
I disagree, the Level Design was a massive improvement in Sun and Moon, I'd argue it was even better than what we got in Sword and Shield.

The Islands were beatufil and great to explore, the problem was that the game did not let you enjoy the game at your own pace (except if you wanted to take it even slower).

The biggest issue with Sun and Moon was that it loved to stop the player all the time. Because of that I can't ever deny it when someone says they hated the game because it was a slog.
It's the reason why I can only re-experience the game via Youtube.

Just the ability to skip Dialoge and Cutscenes alone would have made Sun and Moon the by far best games among the 3D ones.
But as it is right now, Gens 8 and 6 are much more "pleasant" to play than Gen 7 sadly.
I also think Sun and Moon had better level design than SwSh, which is obviously the worst in the series, but nope, S/M was part of the downwars trend of oversimplyfing maps/dungeons started by X/Y. Splitting the game in 4 islands prevented the map from making a net of cities and routes worthy of that name, the victory road was terrible, no gyms meant removing another way of expressing good level design (on top of my head the only remarkable one from a level design standpoint was the Dragon Canyon, which was the very last). the legendaries also were VERY easy to reach and UB just appeared in random routes.
 
Oct 27, 2017
42,700
In some ways, Sword & Shield's story is the most realistic, much to its detriment.

Rather than being a kid who shows up and saves the world, you're a kid who wants to help but keeps getting dismissed to "leave it to the adults".

Most realistic

Ehh, I'd put R/B/Y as the most "realistic". No one was asking for your help, you just kind of showed up whenever TR was around and beat them because you were strong enough to. I wish they'd return to more grounded plots over saving the world. I don't know where they got the idea they kept needing to escalate things. It started with R/S and snowballed from there

Anyway, on thead, SwSh are still the worst Pokemon games IMO, but they'll EASILY hit that number 2 spot. Number 1 remains to be seen, but if they keep selling like MK8D has, it might be possible

The real issue Pokemon has isn't time or development resources. It's the fact that Gamefreak's current design philosophy, on a fundamental level, is antithetical to what made the series good to begin with.
I've been saying this a lot. I think I almost said this word for word in the thread about Gen 4 remakes :D
This is the crux of the issue, and I'm honestly surprised when people don't seem to get it. Okay the latter part of SwSh were rushed, but how does that somehow explain or justify the first part of the game? The writing was still awful, the gym leaders were still just designs and vague glimpses of personality, we still didn't have exploration, and the Wild Area was used as padding (return after every gym). More time would have just meant the ending was brought up to the same level of mediocrity as the beginning. It wouldn't have fixed the fundamental issues
 

Soap

Member
Oct 27, 2017
15,191
The take up of expansions will be an interesting metric going forward. If the DLC does well then I imagine we are going to. 2 year cycle with an expansion pack in between.
 

KernelC

alt account
Banned
Aug 28, 2019
3,561
I think the game is very bad but its success is undeniable.

I hope the DLC can salvage it somehow, but I skeptic about it.
agree. I think it's probably the worst mainline game but it definitely succeeded. Hoping the next one is better
The take up of expansions will be an interesting metric going forward. If the DLC does well then I imagine we are going to. 2 year cycle with an expansion pack in between.
Also agree here, this is why I came around on the Season Pass, it's very clear Pokemon games need more development time. Should hopefully give Gamefreak some time to breathe inbetween entries
 

Virtua Saturn

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,378
I love the world of Pokemon but these games are not going to become enjoyable to me anymore in this life time.
 

ILikeFeet

DF Deet Master
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
61,987
the DLC looks like they're fixing some of the problems with level design, so that'll probably be used as an experiment for level design going forward
 

JershJopstin

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,332
Na, they will. It's the Pokémon cycle. When we're in Gen 10/11, people will start to speak positively for it. Just like people are starting to be positive about X & Y after years of crapping on it
It's not unique to Pokemon, though it may be more prone to it. 6-10 year olds right now mostly love the game (and many don't even know what old features are missing older fans are complaining about), but they're not posting online about it. Give it 8 years and everyone who grew up playing it will be popping up in places like this. Zelda goes through the same thing, though the comparatively low sales of Skyward Sword and the mainstream appeal of Breath of the Wild kinda broke the cycle (there's less people who played SS to be positive on it now and BotW was positive from the get-go).
 

Fj0823

Legendary Duelist
Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,663
Costa Rica
And surely, just like with Final Fantasy XV, being a top seller in the franchise means there are no problems with the game at all.

For real though, at least SE tries to address issues with the past games with any new entry, no matter the sales....I can't say the same about GF
 

Renna Hazel

Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,579
As expected, the people shouting the loudest don't make up a significant number of the fanbase. Looks like Pokemon is in the strongest position it's been in in nearly 2 decades.
 

Xpike

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,676
Well deserved, hopefully the devs can rest easy knowing the insane "fanbase" is actually a very small vocal minority and most people actually enjoyed their efforts.
 

thelongestj

Member
Oct 27, 2017
979
Pokemon Sword and Shield has its issues but it gave us the punk rock Pokemon so it deserves its success. Pre-ordered the DLC yesterday and looking forward to next month!
 
Nov 14, 2017
88
For me the series is dead. I've been playing since Pokémon Yellow and couldn't be more dissapointed. I don't like GameFreak's direction. I don't think they are capable of doing better.
 

Galkinator

Chicken Chaser
Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,963
That's insane especially with how short it's been since the games launched.
Considering how much money this made everyone, I hope GF gets expanded. Their team was about ~100 people iirc?

Clearly having moved to current-gen hardware and out of the handheld market, a lot more resources, time, and money are needed to create the games.
GF aren't technical wizards to say the least, and they would seriously benefit from having more a experienced staff, specifically with modern hardware games, and extra development time.

Sure, SWSH are a moderate critical success and a huge financial success, but I can't wait for Pokemon games to take the real leap into current/next-gen and utilize what modern hardware is capable of. Without saying anything about SWSH quality I think even the people who liked those games can agree that they have potential of offering a lot more than they have. Imagine a BOTW kind of transformation in quality, and Pokemon is a classic example of a franchise that could really use a 'makeover.'

I played Pokemon games since being a little kid up to a few years ago, my early 20s. Since X&Y, the games failed to intrigue me, and I kind of lost my enthusiasm for the series. I really hope that in the future there will be games that'll re-ignite my love for it.
 

unholyFarmer

Member
Jan 22, 2019
1,374
As a FFXV hater, I WISH Sword&Shield had the same quality of FFXV.
I am another one guilty of shitting on FFXV in these parts, and I gotta agree with what you said.

It is unbelievable how GF made their games sink in quality since XY, and ShSw for me was a mediocre 4/10 game as a single player experience. The game feels completely unfinished and devoid of challenge, especially after the 3rd Gym on. There are some small things I liked such as new pkmn designs, and even team Yell I thought was ok. But level design, exploration, story... I couldn't even stand finishing the post-game after Leon.