Switzerland is going to vote on a Burka Ban this weekend

[lexony]

This weekend the population in switzerland will vote on a ban on facial coverings, including burkas. The vote is being initiated by the same group that did the minaret ban which unfortunately was backed by swiss voters. This time it doesn't look much better. A poll shows that 49% are in favour of the ban, 47% are against and 4% still undecided.

While it is anecdotic to want to ban facial coverings during a time like this, it is just stupid to vote on this. It is estimated that there are only 37 people in switzerland who actually wear a burka. I know there are issues with men suppressing women for religious reasons, but there should be other laws in place to handle things like this. It is useless to put the choice of dress in a constitution of a country.

Because this is something on which some forces put to much attention on here in switzerland, my question to you is: What is the situation in your country? Are there laws that forbid the wearing of certain clothes? And my other question: what do you think about voting and direct democracy in general?

 

[hobblygobbly]

you can wear it in my country germany, but I seriously can't remember ever seeing anyone wearing it

for sure, most people don't like it, it's not popular among muslim people in germany at all, because it's *very* conservative/oppressive. and by banning it, sure you might ban it itself, but ideology/conservatism behind it and the control of men in their families of the women in their families doesn't suddenly disappear by banning the burka

it's a discussion to be had but the far-right makes that difficult. the reason is that the burka is part of a very conservative spectrum, and it's a minority. how do you discuss and handle this without the far-right and their ulterior motives being involved

 

[Joni]

It is forbidden in Belgium since 2011, it was an almost unanimous vote in parliament, one person didn't vote for it.
And it is not like there was a real impact considering Belgium had an estimated 30 to 300 people who wore them. Three people lodged complaints at the European Court for Human Rights, that ruled the rule was not blocking religious freedom and was thus lawful.

 

[No_Face]

I'm hoping (and predicting) it will be narrowly voted down, but it's going to be awfully close. Fucking shame initiatives like this are still so popular. What's especially infuriating is that the SVP is framing it as a feminist issue, when they couldn't give less of a shit about that aspect of the problem.

 

[Commedieu]

were men abusing minarets?

thats the idea behind the overt bigotry yes..?

 

[Huncho_Houdini]

37 people? Damn seems like a high priority concern. Issue with this is as usual, you punish the "victim" of oppressive rules. These women may now have a more restricted life as they don't feel comfortable leaving their home. Secondly, I'm sure there is a faction that want to vote on this as a general xenophobic statement. This is also problematic.

It's a complicated situation all around. The Burka has no official place in islamic rules or modern society frankly; the women who wear it do so out of 1) mostly cultural/societal reasons that are conflated with religious reasons and 2) direct and indirect oppression. But an outright ban does little to address the issue.

Some Muslim women wear full-body garments that only expose the eyes, although there is no Quranic text requiring this extreme

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LibGuides: Women in Islam and Muslim Realms: Dress Code

Research resources for the study of women in Islam; Islam and its ideology dealing with women, Muslim feminism, dress code, family and marriage, women and gender in Islam, etc.

guides.library.cornell.edu

 

[CitizenVectron]

It is forbidden in Belgium since 2011, it was an almost unanimous vote in parliament, one person didn't vote for it.
And it is not like there was a real impact considering Belgium had an estimated 30 to 300 people who wore them. Three people lodged complaints at the European Court for Human Rights, that ruled the rule was not blocking religious freedom and was thus lawful.

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I mean, it's still a big deal even if it doesn't affect many people. You could argue that passing an anti-Star of David law in Malaysia wouldn't be too bad because there aren't many Jewish people there...but it's still bad in principle.

 

[effingvic]

These things are never about trying to "help the oppressed" or whatever. Its always about bigotry and telling certain people that they arent welcome.

 

[Patsy]

you can wear it in my country germany, but I seriously can't remember ever seeing anyone wearing it

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I know a couple, but due to them getting extremely islamophobic shit thrown at them more often than not they ended up barely ever leaving their homes, even before Covid. Knew one girl in high school too who was bullied by both teachers & students, same with several hijabi. Every time someone says "but Germany isn't islamophobic, we've even got a few mosques!" I just have to laugh lmao it's so depressing, this shit isn't helping anyone but racists & islamophobes

 

[Sanka]

A good chunk of the people wearing those are probably tourists from oil rich countries. It's a pointless thing to legislate and really just there for people to express their islamophobia

 

[Deleted member 10612]

Imo burkas are a tool of oppression first and foremost. If you fear repercussions of your family (for not wearing one) it's not a choice a lot of times.

Some religious practices need to be questioned and some need to be banned (genital mutilation etc.).

Don't really know what the best way to handle this would be.

 

[Deleted member 8463]

I didn't know about the minaret ban, fucking hell. Minarets are beautiful, stay gammon Switzerland

 

[Deleted member 40853]

This is why I roll my eyes when Euros go on and on about how the US is a racist backwater hellhole. The whole world is a racist hellhole. Still Republicans controlled every branch of government and I don't remember anyone trying to ban fucking minarets.

This kind of stuff is truly terrible because it just lets people hide their islamophobia and congratulate themselves for being good feminists when nothing is being done. The burka is definitely sexist and oppressive, but banning a piece of clothing and then leaving Muslim women to fend for themselves while everyone gets a round of applause of defending women is not going to help anyone. It will probably just make their husbands angry.

A core component of most religions is that they are wielded to oppress women in the name of God or holiness or something, when it's really just about keeping women down. Curiously, people only seem to become passionate about this when talking about Islam.

 

[lexony]

Imo burkas are a tool of oppression first and foremost. If you fear repercussions of your family (for not wearing one) it's not a choice a lot of times.

Some religious practices need to be questioned and some need to be banned (genital mutilation etc.).

Don't really know what the best way to handle this would be.

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The problem is that people who initiate those things most of the time don't really care about opression by religion. They are mainly just against anything that is not Christianity.

 

[Tuck]

37 people? There's no way that's true. I've been to Switzerland and they were everywhere, particularly in Geneva and Interlaken.

 

[L Thammy]

Maybe it's just me, but I don't like excusing behaviour on the basis that it only affects a small minority group. That's a nasty justification.

 

[Senator Toadstool]

This is why I roll my eyes when Euros go on and on about how the US is a racist backwater hellhole. The whole world is a racist hellhole. Still Republicans controlled every branch of government and I don't remember anyone trying to ban fucking minarets.

This kind of stuff is truly terrible because it just lets people hide their islamophobia and congratulate themselves for being good feminists when nothing is being done. The burka is definitely sexist and oppressive, but banning a piece of clothing and then leaving Muslim women to fend for themselves while everyone gets a round of applause of defending women is not going to help anyone. It will probably just make their husbands angry.

A core component of most religions is that they are wielded to oppress women in the name of God or holiness or something, when it's really just about keeping women down. Curiously, people only seem to become passionate about this when talking about Islam.

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This is ironically because the GOP is fiercely christian and the 1st amendment doesn't permit restrictions on religious grounds because it has to apply for everyone. Obviously it leads to the majority group being much more ostentatious about their believes and showing them in public increased the idea that this is a "christian" country

 

[Deleted member 10612]

The problem is that people who initiate those things most of the time don't really care about opression by religion. They are mainly just against anything that is not Christianity.

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Yeah, that's the crux of it. I support the discussion of banning burkas but under another "flag" so to speak.

 

[lexony]

37 people? There's no way that's true. I've been to Switzerland and they were everywhere, particularly in Geneva and Interlaken.

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37 people who actually live in switzerland. (Which is just an estimation by the university of lucerne, it could be also around 100). Otherwise there are many tourists who wear burkas.

 

[hjort]

These things are never about trying to "help the oppressed" or whatever. Its always about bigotry and telling certain people that they arent welcome.

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100%. I have very little respect for organized religion in general, and anything that can be used as a means of controlling others in the name of god in particular, but moving any potential oppression from an individual's social circle to the state is not an improvement or a solution for anyone who is actually oppressed. It's just a helpful tool for reactionary asshats who want the state to perform the dirtywork for them.

It's legal to wear niqab or burka here in Sweden, and despite living in a place with one of the largest influxes of immigrants from Syria and the surrounding region since 2015, I have yet to see anyone wear one. I have, however, come across several people, some of which elected politicians in my area, who want a ban. They will claim it's a matter of defending women's rights, but then they use the word "feminist" as a slur, and one of them has been reported to the police on several occasions for beating wives and girlfriends. It's all so fucking predictable and depressing.

 

[hateradio]

I'm against the burka on priciple of it being a form of control.

Against a ban on burkas, which is another form of control.

The vote is being initiated by the same group that did the minaret ban which unfortunately was backed by swiss voters.

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This seems even more outrageous to me. I would fully support a ban on crosses given this kind of BS.

 

[Glasgow Mega-Snake]

Burkas are definitely tied to oppression. They're not really widespread, anyway, but I'd say you can justify a ban.

Now the minaret ban in Switzerland, that's really shitty. And I don't know what the Swiss constitution says about that, but some things should be offlimits for referendums

Every time someone says "but Germany isn't islamophobic, we've even got a few mosques!" I just have to laugh lmao it's so depressing, this shit isn't helping anyone but racists & islamophobes

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We do have quite a few mosques, at least in bigger cities. And they're mostly in industrial districts, next to motorway exits or in unremarkable residential buildings, because any time there's a plan to build a mosque that's visibly a mosque in a "good" neighbourhood, people throw a hissy fit.
(Usually the same people who complain that Muslim immigrants don't integrate into the general population, of course)

 

[Joni]

It's legal to wear niqab or burka here in Sweden, and despite living in a place with one of the largest influxes of immigrants from Syria and the surrounding region since 2015, I have yet to see anyone wear one.

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It is because niqab and burka usage is largely limited to one section of the Islam, like how you won't see many people dressed as Amish in Italy either. Syrians tend to not belong to the section that does niqab and certainly not burqa. Syria even temporarily banned usage of niqab in settings like schools, and countries like Morocco/Tunesia/Algeria have banned the burqa completely.

 

[lexony]

And I don't know what the Swiss constitution says about that, but some things should be offlimits for referendums

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Basically anything goes. It is a central element to the swiss political system and difficult to explain. You can read here more about it if interested. In short: to change the Swiss constitution, a popular vote is needed.

In this case it is a popular initiative, were citizens can propose an amendment or addition to the Constitution by collecting 100'000 signatures within 18 months. The parliment has to decide for every initative if it can be voted on it, but this is mostly formal.

 

[G.O.O.]

I used to be against the burqa ban, but now I believe it's easier to hold this position if you're a man.

A burqa is not just a veil or a scarf. It's basically a statement on how women aren't supposed to be seen out of their house. I understand how some women would see it as an act of violence against their gender. Even if it only concerns a few hundred people, it raises questions about the kind of gender relationships you're willing to allow in your country.

I don't know if a ban is the right answer (and yes, I'm fully aware of islamophobia in Europe, as well as the hypocrisy of those who pretend to care about women's rights while only caring when they're threatened by foreign cultures), but it's not a simple question of allowing a piece of clothing.

 

[Jegriva]

In Italy the law just says that your face must be recognizable during public events and/or under request of the police force., it's a law born even before the Republic, afaik.

 

[lexony]

I used to be against the burqa ban, but now I believe it's easier to hold this position if you're a man.

A burqa is not just a veil or a scarf. It's basically a statement on how women aren't supposed to be seen out of their house. I understand how some women would see it as an act of violence against their gender. Even if it only concerns a few hundred people, it raises questions about the kind of gender relationships you're willing to allow in your country.

I don't know if a ban is the right answer (and yes, I'm fully aware of islamophobia in Europe, as well as the hypocrisy of those who pretend to care about women's rights while only caring when they're threatened by foreign cultures), but it's not a simple question of allowing a piece of clothing.

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I see that it is a issue which should be addressed. It is not black and white.
But in this case this popular vote is initiated by exactly those islamophobic people you are describing and supported only by the biggest party of switzerland, which is very far right. Every other party, interest groups and the government are all clearly recommending to vote no.

 

[Necromanti]

In a household where a woman is not allowed to choose what she wears, all this would mean is that she would simply not be allowed to go outside. It only punishes those women and further deprives them of freedom.

 

[behOemoth]

Xenophobia in Switzerland is unfortunately big and it seems to get worse and worse.

 

[Slacker247]

It can't possibly be that some women _choose_ to wear a veil. I know many who do, so a government coming to try and "save" them is laughable.

If you believe most women who dress conservatively to any degree are oppressed need to chat to more women (religious in any faith and not), for real. Just like Lady A wants to rock a short skirt, Lady B wants the opposite, by choice.

Anywho, at a time like this, why, when folks will/should be wearing a mask in public spaces?

 

[Deleted member 46489]

Yes, there are women who are forced to wear burkas. No, this will not help them. Only make their lives worse. And there are also women who wear it out of their own free will. This is a violation of their agency to decide how they clothe themselves.

I live in India, the country with the second largest population of Muslims in the world (after Indonesia). While Islamophobia is rampant, there are no clothing bans as such. Unlikely to happen in the short term, I think, cause freedom of religion is a fundamental right enshrined in the constitution.

 

[Nesotenso]

I don't understand this minaret ban.

 

[hjort]

It is because niqab and burka usage is largely limited to one section of the Islam, like how you won't see many people dressed as Amish in Italy either. Syrians tend to not belong to the section that does niqab and certainly not burqa. Syria even temporarily banned usage of niqab in settings like schools, and countries like Morocco/Tunesia/Algeria have banned the burqa completely.

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Ah, I wasn't aware. Thanks for informing me!

 

[Amalthea]

I will vote against it but have little hope that it won't pass.

I have seen myself situations where muslim wifes actually told me that they can't leave their own appartment because they didn't have a key while I was selling candy door to door in school. Things like that will only happen more (in cases where the veil is forced upon by the husband) instead but what do those xenophobic fuckers actually care about the plight of these women?

 

[MisterSnrub]

These things are never about trying to "help the oppressed" or whatever. Its always about bigotry and telling certain people that they arent welcome.

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.

 

[Deleted member 14518]

There is a woman I have seen in my area and she have some obvious mental health problems. She covers her face with a heavy scarf, but is definitely not Muslim.

If something like this passed here she could be potential harassed by the police. She's harming no one.

Anyway a burka bans are nearly pointless now with Covid. Sure anyone can just cover their face for health reasons and I dont see that changing post vaccine.

 

[Jindrax]

I agree on the ban. Islamophobic or not. Own choice or not. Framing this in '' religious freedom '' is strawmanning. You have the right to practice whatever religion you want nobody is taking that away from you. But you don't have the right to walk around in public completely devoid of any possible way of being identified because your religion demands it.

Notwithstanding COVID. Covering your face completely in public should be illegal everywhere. There's absolutely no reason for it.

 

[SlickShoes]

I live in Switzerland but can't vote because I am not a citizen and so much stuff here is so backwards compared to many other countries. This stuff and the anti-covid restrictions nonsense is all stirred up by right-wing parties that are quite clearly outwardly racist and xenophobic against almost anyone not "natural Swiss".

The people advocating for these changes are not doing it for any sort of "noble" reason that you see some people theorising here. These parties want to keep everything the way it is, keep it Swiss, have men at work, have women at home.

We have a Muslim friend that wears a headscarf only and the way she is treated here is despicable.

And to the person above, I walked about for two weeks earlier this year with my face completely covered because it was -14, should I be arrested?

 

[nelsonroyale]

Not really a fan of the burkha in general, but don't agree with banning it at all. In essence I think the outcome is to reinforce xenophobia and victim blaming, dressed up in the cloth of empowerment. The state should mobilise support and incentives rather than threats in this case. Switzerland also seems to have a lot of racism, some of it overt, a lot of it bubbling near the surface.

There are far more pressing things to ban such as fossi fuel lobbying and ties.

 

[ginger ninja]

So what happened to letting women make their own choices for their bodies 🤔

 

[DeltaRed]

It is estimated that there are only 37 people in switzerland who actually wear a burka.

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Wait is that true? What a waste of everybody's time.

 

[PennyStonks]

I would have been on board with this sorta thing until covid. My dumbass sitting here thinking physical Identity matters when alcohol sales only need a verbal "I am over 21" currently.

 

[Dr. Mario]

A burka is extreme misogynism, so I'm not against banning it. At the same time there are so few of them in the west anyway that it's a pretty useless ban mostly out of bigoted reasons.

 

[nekkid]

Women shouldn't be forced into covering their legs.
Ban trousers!

 

[lexony]

Wait is that true? What a waste of everybody's time.

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Yes. According to a study of an university here in switzerland.

 

[Shodan14]

Wait is that true? What a waste of everybody's time.

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That's direct democracy for you.

 

[Psittacus]

So what happened to letting women make their own choices for their bodies 🤔

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Switzerland was one of the last Western countries to give women the vote. Direct democracy can be a wild ride.

 

[Patapuf]

I'm hoping (and predicting) it will be narrowly voted down, but it's going to be awfully close. Fucking shame initiatives like this are still so popular. What's especially infuriating is that the SVP is framing it as a feminist issue, when they couldn't give less of a shit about that aspect of the problem.

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It's depressing. After they've lost a series of votes on free movement/the eu they simply go to the next xenophobic topic they can find. One that doesn't affect the economy as much but is still a lighting rod for vague fears with no basis.

It looks like it'll be really close again. Like with the minarets.

 

[The Curry Witch]

The minaret ban was pretty much a wake-up call for many in this country. It was fukking ridiculous. Since then the SVP has had loss after loss. The biggest win the populists in this country have recently had was the "Konzernverantwortungsinitiative" which didn't make it. I actually don't suspect the Burka Ban will make it but there is, of course, a chance that it might.

However, let's not forget that this will not solely affect women waring Burkas/Niqabs. If this goes through, you will not be allowed to cover your face in public. Period. Exceptions are made for winter sports and medical reasons (masks etc of course).

Wait is that true? What a waste of everybody's time.

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What if I told you that this group of (MORE THAN 30) women also mostly consists of women who have converted and never even migrated from another country or were born into this religion. Yeah.....

 

[FlashChopCoffee]

Such a law was passed in Denmark too, years ago, as thinly veiled bait for extreme-right voters.
I remember one of the reasons given being something akin to "Who knows what they could be hiding under there?"