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Oct 25, 2017
969
Yeah, the point of Catwoman is to be over the top.
I guess next time they can just stare at each other, broad shouldered and brooding
Also, I just realized my bias for defending exaggerated physical movements on characters are mostly due to the fact that I may be an animator and I've been conditioned (at school and in the industry) to always "PUSH" character, and physical acting... Which honestly I do not see anything too wrong with, otherwise we will have boring "NPC" characters or (medium close up) anime like characters just moving their mouth when communicating with each other.


Reminds me of something...

a63.gif
Ahahahaha! As a crazy SF fanboy, this I can get behind!

Don't be a ProZD skit.

Sorry I am too much of a Boomer to knwo anything about this dude.

 
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Dice

Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,366
Canada
Also, I just realized my bias for defending exaggerated physical movements on characters are mostly due to the fact that I may be an animator and I've been conditioned (at school and in the industry) to always "PUSH" character, and physical acting...

So you mean it's just horny animators putting literally ALL the effort into catwoman whole batman just stands there one gesture shy of a t-pose. Got it. 👍

Edit: naw, wait, you ARE a prozd SKIT 😆
Well what may seems "boring" to you is efficiency for the bats. He's a trained ninja, so perhaps he is constantly aware of his energy and stamina levels, and he saves any kind of physical movement for fighting his enemies or/and scaling and grappling off buildings etc.

 
Oct 25, 2017
969
So you mean it's just horny animators putting literally ALL the effort into catwoman whole batman just stands there one gesture shy of a t-pose. Got it. 😆 👍
Well what they thought me in animation school is, to constantly be aware of a character's personality, their past history, their mental state etc. while animating them...

So my take on these characters is, Batman is too much of a dark, edgy, depressed dude to relax and be loose, while Catwoman is a bit too happy go lucky, and self aware of a person to not flaunt her goods etc. especially in front of her love interest. I also would imagine Selina takes quite the time to put on her Catwoman suite and gear up etc. to not feel too excited in her getup. etc.


Edit: naw, wait, you ARE a prozd SKIT 😆
Sorry man, I just Googled the guy, tried to give one of his vids a go, I .. I just don't get it?! I be the first to admit I am a nerd but.. this ain't my thing.

Also, the fucking guy is lazy, I mean if you have this other "nerd contrarian" character/persona, the least you can do is change your shirt and restyle your hair or something, a slight change of voice just ain't enough... Ugh fuck .. I hate perpetually being stuck in visual language criticism.

I am an animator, but I know nothing about Anime/culture etc. I lost interest after seeing Akira in the mid 90s.
 
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TsuWave

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,999
What's the male equivalent? Either character or trope?


You said it! ✋

I don't know. I see male characters with, maybe not mannerisms as much, but ridiculous/unrealistic models and non-practical designs all the time though

i don't think emphasizing the sex appeal of some characters is inherently wrong, and in this particular case, that's how i've always seen catwoman depicted so to me is just "eh"
 

Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
53,393
Also, I just realized my bias for defending exaggerated physical movements on characters are mostly due to the fact that I may be an animator and I've been conditioned (at school and in the industry) to always "PUSH" character, and physical acting... Which honestly I do not see anything too wrong with, otherwise we will have boring "NPC" characters or (medium close up) anime like characters just moving their mouth when communicating with each other.
As a fellow 3D animator, do you consider the following to not be exaggerated enough because it doesn't appeal to horny teenage boys?


What you're describing is COMPLETELY different than what's being criticized. Especially since we're talking about something that's very heavily mocapped.
 

Dice

Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,366
Canada
Maybe someone who looks and behaves like he's in a boyband? Catwoman doesn't move too differently to someone like Iggy Azeala on stage

Catwoman ain't a popstar. And while I don't think sex appeal is wrong, I do have a problem with a LOT of games turning that shit up to an 11 and having a camera that explicitly focuses on girl's tits and assess.

Many interpretations of the same character exist, not all of them are this much "in heat" for batmen.
 

Kinthey

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
22,335
Forever stuck moving like you're on stage in a pop concert ... a terrible fate.

Could those animations be toned down at all perhaps?

The worlds a stage

Catwoman ain't a popstar. And while I don't think sex appeal is wrong, I do have a problem with a LOT of games turning that shit up to an 11 and having a camera that explicitly focuses on girl's tits and assess.

Many interpretations of the same character exist, not all of them are this much "in heat" for batmen.
I didn't get the impression that the camera was particularly focusing on her body parts
I guess I think it just fits to catwoman. In turn Batgirl for example is animated completely different

 

Spring-Loaded

Member
Oct 27, 2017
19,904
The worlds a stage


I didn't get the impression that the was particularly solely focusing on her body parts
I guess I think it just fits to catwoman (also didn't get the impression that the camera was explicitly focusing on her tits and ass). In turn Batgirl for example is animated completely different



check out this thumbnail for this Arkham City trailer



And why do you still oppose having more nuanced animations? Catwoman doesn't need to animate like a stripper every time she's on screen
 
Oct 25, 2017
969
As a fellow 3D animator, do you consider the following to not be exaggerated enough because it doesn't appeal to horny teenage boys?


What you're describing is COMPLETELY different than what's being criticized. Especially since we're talking about something that's very heavily mocapped.


I am not exactly sure what you're asking from me here, but I'll give you my general thoughts on the scene.
I think the choreography and editing in the scene was mediocre, the way Harley was swinging that club?? was very unconvincing, Those gorilla creatures were like 2.5 times her height, (never mind their gigantic mass) and yet she is casually swinging a 2 feet long piece of dry bark to their head and knocking them over. None of it felt "weighty" ..... The whip swings from CW were a bit better though. But that CW was a lot less interesting than the one in the OP, She was stiff, her voice was a bit too monotone and not in line withwhat I would imagine Catwoman would sound like. You can argue they were in peril and panic, but I still think these larger than life figures should be animated with a bit more energy.

As for the "not appealing to horny teenage boys" Well.. they did manage to "cheat" and squeeze in the ass shots in that extreme up shots when they were looking at the ship in the sky, at least they made the ass shots part of the narration so..... take that for what you will.

I am not too bothered by it myself, but I still think it's cheap, lazy and desperate attempt to push the "sexiness" without even bothering to make it about the characters themselves. The difference between the CW in the OP and the one in here is, the one in the OP, we can easily tell she's in a good mood and may even be feeling "sexy" HERSELF.

The actions and the sultriness is actually coming from the character herself! Where as in here, the ASS shots are not coming from the character herself but it's coming from Michael Ba... errr the horny camera man himself!

Aaaaand, what does mocap have anything to do with good or bad FINAL animation? Any animator that's worth its salt shoudl be able to take a half decent mop cap and push it to make it look much better. Or at least Direct a mo-cap actor to achieve better results. (In a nutshell: Not all mocaps are created equal)

I think I was addressing exactly what was being criticized.
 
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Kinthey

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
22,335
check out this thumbnail for this Arkham City trailer



And why do you still oppose having more nuanced animations? Catwoman doesn't need to animate like a stripper every time she's on screen

I don't think that trailer is all that relevant when we're talking about Arkham knight. If that is not present in Arkham knight then that's something already fixed.

And I guess I oppose to it because I don't think it has to change. Catwoman can be over the top
 

Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
53,393
I am not exactly sure what you're asking from me here, but I'll give you my general thoughts on the scene.
I think the choreography and editing in the scene was mediocre, the way Harley was swinging that club?? was very unconvincing, Those gorilla creatures were like 2.5 times her height, (never mind their gigantic mass) and yet she is casually swinging a 2 feet long piece of dry bark to their head and knocking them over.
If you haven't played Injustice, this is actually by the narrative. Everyone in Injustice is shown taking a super pill that makes them way stronger than they would be otherwise in order to justify a fighting game narrative. Works quite well.

None of it felt "weighty" ..... The whip swings from CW were a bit better though. But that CW was a lot less interesting than the one in the OP, She was stiff, her voice was a bit too monotone and not in line withwhat I would imagine Catwoman would sound like. You can argue they were in peril and panic, but I still think these larger than life figures should be animated with a bit more energy.
I feel like you should play Injustice....

As for the "not appealing to horny teenage boys" Well.. they did manage to "cheat" and squeeze in the ass shots in that extreme up shots when they were looking at the ship in the sky, at least they made the ass shots part of the narration so..... take that for what you will, (I am not too bothered by it myself )
It's not the only instance and it's pretty apparent yea. Still, not as bad as the arkham series which goes into straight cringe territory.

Aaaaand, what does mocap have anything to do with good or bad FINAL animation? Any animator that's worth its salt shoudl be able to take a half decent mop cap and push it to make it look much better. Or at least Direct a mo-cap actor to achieve better results. (In a nutshell: Not all mocaps are created equal)

I think I was addressing exactly what was being criticized.
It's more about the direction given to the mocap actress, (actor?). It's really cringe and like the god of war 3 sex scene when it comes to the direction and dialogue Catwoman was given.
 

Gentlemen

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,528
Yeah, the point of Catwoman is to be over the top.
I guess next time they can just stare at each other, broad shouldered and brooding

I like how the only two possible choices in animation you can come up with are this
6c0.gif

or TF2 civilians

In case of Catwoman being sexual is an inherent part of her personality and I don't think that needs to change
She's not a real person
It's okay to change most everything about her and still be catwoman
 

Spring-Loaded

Member
Oct 27, 2017
19,904
I don't think that trailer is all that relevant when we're talking about Arkham knight. If that is not present in Arkham knight then that's something already fixed.

And I guess I oppose to it because I don't think it has to change. Catwoman can be over the top

The same gameplay animations are used in both games, and the portrayal is the same in cutscene since ... it's the same character

And you think it shouldn't change? Knight's portrayal isn't a good type of "over the top" and not everyone has low standards. If this strawman you present of people saying "it MUST change" is the sole reason you're opposed to this, then why continue?
 
Oct 25, 2017
969
If you haven't played Injustice, this is actually by the narrative. Everyone in Injustice is shown taking a super pill that makes them way stronger than they would be otherwise in order to justify a fighting game narrative. Works quite well.

I wasn't exactly criticizing her super strength but the choreography of the scene, she may have super strength but she still lacks the reach to swing that club to the tall gorilla's head, maybe she should have had a bigger, longer and stronger weapon to fight them with?

I mean the psychical actions don't look weighty and that has nothing to do with which character is stronger than who, those gorillas are massive, even if a truck cashed into them they would fall with more weight than an empty cardboard box.


I feel like you should play Injustice....

I played the first one and it also had some poor mo cap and lazy animation in the cut scenes, I do appreciate the graphic engine and some of the art direction though. .. wait was this in the first one? Doesn't matter, my thoughts on the series still stand.


It's not the only instance and it's pretty apparent yea. Still, not as bad as the arkham series which goes into straight cringe territory.


I disagree, I still think it's cheap, lazy and desperate attempt to push the "sexiness" without even bothering to make it about the characters themselves. The difference between the CW in the OP and the one in here is, the one in the OP, we can easily tell she's in a good mood and may even be feeling "sexy" HERSELF.


The actions and the sultriness is actually coming from the character herself! Where as in here, the ASS shots are not coming from the character herself but it's coming from Michael Ba... errr the horny camera man himself! Having said this: I haven't played Arkham Knight ( Have beaten Asylum though) and I also haven't played inJustice 2.

Basically don't use camera angles and composition to exploit the sexuality of a character, unless said character is meant to be sexy (part of her trait) and ALSO the scene calls for the character to be sexy. And THAT is the main DIVIDING factor between the CW in the OP and the CW in the inJustice sample you provided.

And if you want to bring this back to animation/ Art direction jargon: from the two examples, I know exactly which creatives to hire if I was making a game myself. (hypothetically speaking)
 
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Kinthey

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
22,335
The same gameplay animations are used in both games, and the portrayal is the same in cutscene since ... it's the same character
This was particularly about how the camera treats the character and if it focuses on individual body parts.

And you think it shouldn't change? Knight's portrayal isn't a good type of "over the top" and not everyone has low standards. If this strawman you present of people saying "it MUST change" is the sole reason you're opposed to this, then why continue?
I don't get how that's a straw man? No one's arguing that it should change?also I'm honestly curious what's the good kind of over the top sexy
 

Spring-Loaded

Member
Oct 27, 2017
19,904
This was particularly about how the camera treats the character and if it focuses on individual body parts.


I don't get how that's a straw man? No one's arguing that it should change?also I'm honestly curious what's the good kind of over the top sexy

No one's arguing that it HAS to change like you said, at least not the recurring posters.

And that is a good question—🤔what is a good kind of over the top sexy? You mentioned characters are allowed to be that—did you have any standards for quality in that regard?

What's in AK feels silly even in context and after playing these games over and over.
I guess "not being a damsel in distress who offers herself up to the player character as a reward" would be a start. I'd rather her just seem like a person first and foremost rather than the above description, not over the top at all.
 

Dice

Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,366
Canada
Haha, I just love that gif, don't tell me you didn't chuckle at it at least!

Chuckled at your audacity maybe... But to me you're just another dude talking down and taking cheap shots and making lame explanations on issues women often face. So No, I don't have to find a sense of humour about your dumb gif choice.


But I'm willing to play along, here you go: Batman reacting to how I feel reading your schtick
oEn8l8W.gif
 
Oct 25, 2017
969
Chuckled at your audacity maybe... But to me you're just another dude talking down and taking cheap shots and making lame explanations on issues women often face. So No, I don't have to find a sense of humour about your dumb gif choice.


But I'm willing to play along, here you go: Batman reacting to how I feel reading your schtick
I disagree with everything you just said, I extensively explained and elaborated in full detail on why I think the Catwoman's (well technically Bat-cat woman) acting and animation in the OP is just fine. I also presented my two cents as an artist, or as someone that is willing to see the scene through the lens of the creators...There is no need to know my (or anyone elses' for that matter) race, gender or sexual orientation and yes even age in this argument, but you're free to make your assumptions.... this is the internet ..... On the other hand, I haven't heard anything insightful coming from you, your biggest and only argument is "Heh! dudes being dudes and not listening to women!"

You may have noticed my long (text) discussions were with folks that were worth engaging with, and I believe my responses to you (however simple it may have seem to you) were equally worthy of your posts. .. eh
 
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