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Gestault

Member
Oct 26, 2017
13,356
Oh look another thing for people to be outraged about. I'm perfectly fine with the character choice. Also glad they didn't do some alien character.

People discuss and respond to basically every aspect of game-making, and protagonists play an important role in narrative and presentation. Hence, the attention on that decision. This will sound harsh, but it's a little pathetic seeing you telegraph that you aren't emotionally equipped to see others talk about it. It might not be the topic for you.
 

DeathPeak

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,989
Yawn. What a bunch of bullshit. "Star Wars is already being lead by a woman. Let's do something different so people can have more of a connection." In other words, "This game is for you, white boy nerds!" I didn't realise it's so difficult to write a relatable character unless they are a human white male. Maybe they need different writers.
 

Slayven

Never read a comic in his life
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
93,051
The character seems so generic they might as well have made player created. The robot and Forest Whittaker don't have to do much to steal scenes from him
 

EdibleKnife

Member
Oct 29, 2017
7,723
I have so many games in my library and wishlists that I have no problem passing over the work of cowardly creators like these. Fucking sick of these devs putting their foot in their mouth. Either be progressive or don't. Make a statement or don't. Too many devs try to have it both ways trying to rationalize their bullshit choices. It's how you get quotes like this or when devs say their war game or some such is "apolitical". At least say your ignorance and obliviousness led to you making a straight white character. At least then I'd respect and it would at least be an acknowledgement of internal short comings and biases that can lead to growth. Nothing is more annoying than creatives trying to rationalize their adherence to the status quo. That just shows you're only out to save face rather than actually self-critique and work to do better.
 

DixieDean82

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
11,837
Why is it perfectly ok to keep referring to white males as generic and boring? I mean you're making negatives points based on their skin colour...
Because most video game protagonists are white males, hence generic.

As for the boring part, I'm only judging off the EA play event, and I thought he come across dull.
 

Deleted member 19533

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,873
There's been plenty of male MCs in those same movies - their excuse doesn't make perfect sense.
Nah. This is gonna sound semantic, but the main character in both films is female. You're thinking of primary characters, which is different. There are significant male characters in the films though, undoubtedly. There could be a significant female PC in the game as well. Have to actually see/play it first to know I suppose.
Cute. Pretending you're adding much else beyond excuses.
Yes, saying I understand what they're saying is an excuse. You probably shouldn't have responded outside of gif format. Your words are even weaker. Go be a clown elsewhere.

You can't balance literally centuries of men being the focus of the majority of stories by switching to a 1:1 ratio. true balance would mean allowing women to dominate narratives for a time, and accepting that there's nothing wrong with that.

Anyways, I never expected that out of this industry or any other. This whole thing is just such a nakedly cowardly response. at least lie and say you're specifically excited about the character for one reason or another, not that their creation was literally reactionary.
I don't think anyone really expected them to try to balance all of history, but rather to go forward with a different approach.

As far as their reasoning is concerned, I'd much rather the truth than they try to make up some lie that sounds better.
 
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Bjones

Member
Oct 30, 2017
5,622
Yeah I don't mind that he is a white guy, but just say you wanted him to be a white guy don't dance around with excuses. Stick to your decision or do something different. You can't please everyone but you can always have integrity.
 

Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
53,304
But seriously, why is a black woman never an option when these things come up?
Your mentor in this game is a black woman. She's a former jedi knight who based on the first trailer saves Cal from getting captured by the Inquisitors during the opening.
jfo_reveal_screen_cere_1.png


and like Cal she's a digital double of her actress:
65388021_2349543075283952_4862299845809420426_n.jpg


The pilot of your ship is an alien. Cameron Monaghan is a red head and that's reflected in the game, (they could've easily made his hair brown). I don't think this game is an example of poor representation. This seems like a case of incredibly poor phrasing on the part of the dev.
 
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Slayven

Never read a comic in his life
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
93,051
It's really damning because he later says " we want a real human connection to the character"
 
Dec 9, 2018
20,993
New Jersey
Obviously there's a surplus of white male protagonists and I completely understand why people are confused why some devs even have to justify making a character a certain way. Personally, I take no issue with whoever the main character is. Good writing and good performances matter most to me. However, having a person or woman of color or a non-binary person or a transgender person adds a distinct flavor to the story without having to alter much of the narrative. I don't think Stig is a bad person nor would I apply more negativity upon the team at Respawn as I feel it would result in a hostile environment.

I won't dictate how the team makes their game but I will say their reasoning behind this was unnecessary. Nothing was stopping them from making a non-white male character, so why do they have to argue for it? I know in forums like these you must justify your position on these matters but developers should realize that the vast majority of people don't care why you made the character the way you did. If people complain about the ethnicity, gender, race, or sexuality of the character, they're often not worth talking to as they wouldn't play the game otherwise and are looking for a reason to instill hate.

Diversity makes all creative mediums better and I support it through and through. While JFO might not add anything of value to the industry in terms of diversity, I still look forward to what Respawn is actively crafting. A Metroid-vania Star Wars game is something I haven't seen in a while. Unfortunately, others will see a too common face on the cover and not think much of the game as a whole, and honestly I don't blame them for it. Sometimes diversity helps a game stand out and makes it an easier sell for a crowd often uncatered to by the industry. However, due to the size of the Star Wars brand, it appears Respawn saw no reason to do that, which is a decision I can also understand while not exactly 100% agree with. Respawn not taking initiative to cater to an often ignored community is certainly a missed opportunity.

But all games are not created equally and thus are multi-faceted in design and artistic integrity. The gameplay, level design, dynamic character interactions, everything shapes a game into what it is. I can absolutely see JFO delivering an exceptional presentation of the Star Wars name to such a precious medium. I sincerely hope critics will laud the game as I entrust Respawn to establish games of commendable quality
 

TrafficCoen

The Fallen
Feb 22, 2019
1,603
I haven't read the discourse so apologies if I'm repeating what others have said.

This statement makes little sense. On the topic of female protagonists, while Rey is the main character of the sequels, both Finn and Kylo get lots of screen time, Kylo in particular is often pushed as the deutroprotagonist of the new movies. Plus Luke, Han and Darth Vader/Anakin are still seen more as the face of the series as a whole then Rey.

On aliens being unrelatable I'm confused because most of the most beloved and and unique characters in gaming are basically aliens. Sonic ain't actually a fucking hedgehog, he's a little blue dude who runs fast. An alien could really stand out in the cast of star wars as a whole, let alone the many star wars games who have predominantly white male protags. I know I and many others were hoping for an alien as a lead
 

Veelk

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,705
So I decided to listen to the podcast/interview so that I had the full context of what was being said here.

The question being asked was "Was an alien ever considered for the protagonist?" Which makes his mention of Rey something of a non-sequitur or atleast only tangentially related. It's so offhandedly mentioned that I think it requires a follow up on why they decided to not go with a female protagonist if it was considered and rejected. His main answer basically addresses the alien protagonist question, which itself I think is a bit eh. The aliens in SW are basically humans with funny wigs and different skin colors, after all.

Saying "We rejected a female protagonist because Rey exists" is a dumb rationale and if that's all that went into it, then I have no sympathy, but it honestly feels like to me he just offhandedly mentioned Rey tangentially and didn't give the full answer.
 

Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
53,304
But is she playable?
Considering that the entire progression system is directly related to Cal continuing his jedi training i'm pretty sure we're only playing as Cal throughout the entire journey.

So Rey filled the female lead quota?
Considering that Battlefront 2 had a very atypical protagonist, (a woman who's a POC
3261c11b-df90-4e27-9246-90731fa9619a-screen-shot-2017-11-20-at-112008-pm.png


who also had a romance where she had a ton of agency:
iden-versio-and-del-meeko-in-battlefront-ii.jpeg



who we see not only grow old
latest


but also that she had a child:
D57XjvQW0AA_8BI.jpg


It's less to do with that and more trying not to draw even more immediate comparisons to Rey by having a jedi protagonist. Again it seems like a case of very unfortunate phrasing.
 
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Jun 17, 2018
3,244
User Banned (3 Days): Dismissive drive-by posting
Not this again... Who cares what the protagonist is, surely games are about being fun? Some of the gaming community sure know how to suck the fun out of the hobby..
 

DigitalOp

Member
Nov 16, 2017
9,277
Really stupid reasoning. Shows how creatively bankrupt the studio is on this project. They're gonna get chewed if they oversold the gameplay details when this releases..

A poster on here made a good point. Business decision wise, this looks like a play to attract the audience of those who hate the Rey-led movie franchise. Those people would never touch this game if it had a woman leading.

Those who do like the current films would grab this regardless so they made move to court the base that's upset
 

whiteninja

One Winged Slayer
The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
1,794
I wonder how different things might be if Ubisoft had the license

starwarslethalalliancujjnx.jpg


(Shes also not a Jedi)
 

DrForester

Mod of the Year 2006
Member
Oct 25, 2017
21,651
When I saw the first trailer, I thought for sure that because of the overwhelming blandness of the hero's design, that there was going to be a character creator.

I thought to myself "no one would deisng a single protagonist THAT bland"


How wrong I was.
 

Calvarok

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,218
Nah. This is gonna sound semantic, but the main character in both films is female. You're thinking of primary characters, which is different. There are significant male characters in the films though, undoubtedly. There could be a significant female PC in the game as well. Have to actually see/play it first to know I suppose.

Yes, saying I understand what they're saying is an excuse. You probably shouldn't have responded outside of gif format. Your words are even weaker. Go be a clown elsewhere.

I don't think anyone really expected them to try to balance all of history, but rather to go forward with a different approach.

As far as their reasoning is concerned, I'd much rather the truth than they try to make up some lie that sounds better.
im not saying i don't want the truth, I'm saying their truth sucks ass and they should not have expected everyone to be cool with it
 

Gestault

Member
Oct 26, 2017
13,356
It's really damning because he later says " we want a real human connection to the character"

I've been trying to find a way to highlight how fucked up the implications (and direct explanations) of this design choice are without coming across as hyperbolic, but it really really sounds like the design language they're using considers non-white characters to be in some sense sub-human. In the sense that they eliminated non-human and non-white characters from consideration to "help" players relate to the protag under the same rationale.

I assume this is mostly just TERRIBLE phrasing, and sort of a mangled explanation of their actual rationales, but when you look at it as stated, that connection stands out (at least in the current social climate) like a rotting wound.
 

Slayven

Never read a comic in his life
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
93,051
I've been trying to compose a way to highlight how fucked up that is in the implications (and direct explanations) of this design choice that doesn't come across as hyperbolic, but it really really sounds like the design language they're using considers non-white characters to be in some sense sub-human. In the sense that they eliminated non-human and non-white characters from consideration to "help" players relate to the protag under the same rationale.

I assume this is mostly just TERRIBLE phrasing, and sort of a mangled explanation of their actual rationales, but when you look at it as stated, that connection stands out (at least in the current social climate) like a rotting wound.
Yeah that implication can be heard in so many reasoning for stuff. They grew up on white male power fantasies, got into industries prodimentally full of white males, and they churn out more white male power fantasies. It is Van Neumanning biases.
 

LinkStrikesBack

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
16,351
Ah yes, just like when Luke and/or anakin and Obi wan were the franchise leads, we had a glut of female protagonists in star wars games as far as the eye could see.
 
OP
OP
Deepwater

Deepwater

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,349
I've been trying to compose a way to highlight how fucked up that is in the implications (and direct explanations) of this design choice that doesn't come across as hyperbolic, but it really really sounds like the design language they're using considers non-white characters to be in some sense sub-human. In the sense that they eliminated non-human and non-white characters from consideration to "help" players relate to the protag under the same rationale.

I assume this is mostly just TERRIBLE phrasing, and sort of a mangled explanation of their actual rationales, but when you look at it as stated, that connection stands out (at least in the current social climate) like a rotting wound.

FWIW, I think its bad phrasing, cause I think he was definitely talking about aliens. The comment about gender was inserted very awkwardly in the response ( and wasn't related to the original question), so I dont have good reason to believe that he was talking about anything other than alien protags.
 

Aly

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,116
Your mentor in this game is a black woman. She's a former jedi knight who based on the first trailer saves Cal from getting captured by the Inquisitors during the opening.
jfo_reveal_screen_cere_1.png


and like Cal she's a digital double of her actress:
65388021_2349543075283952_4862299845809420426_n.jpg


The pilot of your ship is an alien. Cameron Monaghan is a red head and that's reflected in the game, (they could've easily made his hair brown). I don't think this game is an example of poor representation. This seems like a case of incredibly poor phrasing on the part of the dev.

Which is awesome. But she's not the main playable character is my point. If they wanted something different from Rey, and other brown haired white woman leads in Star Wars then I don't understand why that wouldn't be the next way to design a character since most black women in Star wars have side characters. I'm not saying they're being malicious or anything but I hope they really understand why their words are getting criticism even though it's just bad phrasing.
 

AlexBasch

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,307
Oh cool, we're keeping the white male standard so even though people who are not caucasian feel weirded out when a woman or a minority gets representation.

I swear I don't get that shit, many fellow mexicans I know were deeply offended by the black Ariel thing. Even If it was latina they would demand a white redhead because MUH INFANCY.