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Surprised by unexpected racist stereotypes and depictions in Psychonauts 2 (late game level spoilers)
- Thread starter Deleted member 4198
- Start date
I never said it's a chinese trait. I said it's common in China as an illegal activity.
There is no such thing as a "illegal" trait about a culture. Crime is an opportunistic thing, not a racial thing.
I've yet to see any piece of western media that actually tackles "negative" aspects of Asian cultures.
Such as rampant racism and xenophobia that is common among many Asian countries. Especially among China, Japan or Korea.
I mean he's acknowledging how informative this thread has been for him specifically because of how he had a hard time seeing certain problematic elements due to his inherent privilege? I don't think there's anything especially wrong with that. He's not telling OP or anyone else how to feel or dismissing their experiences.
I understand the want to dunk on it but I wanted to be in the conversation and give my perspective. I tried to be respectful in the post but if you took issue with something I said or I was being ignorant I apologize. I wouldn't mind knowing what the issue you had with the post you quoted was so I can try to be better about it in the future. It's definitely a sensitive topic and I mean no disrespect.
Pretty sure if this is brought up irl most people wont care. It's internet being internet
just don't see the need for people to always have to inject themselves and their experience into a conversation that doesn't really have anything to do with them.
Also in regards to the last point — it's not a black womans obligation to be someone who has to call out things that may be questionable in their work environment all the time.
It was pointed out in a thread but iirc their art director is a black woman
Maybe you should have read the post first instead of stopping after the first sentence? He didn't try to dismiss anything that was brought up.
Thanks for letting me know. Totally agree with your last point as well. I fucked that up suggesting there is some sort of universal minority perspective.
I think I will bounce. I don't want to derail the convo.
I read the post. I never said they dismissed anything. Stop detailing the thread.
I'm Chinese, so I'm not a white ally. Just because like 3-4 Asian people on here said it doesn't bother them doesn't mean they represent the whole minority. I think these conversations are important to have. So shocking, I know, Asian people have different opinions on representation.
If these type of threads bother you so damn much, there is an ignore option.
And the OP is Asian! Oh, but Kirby said only internet SJWs care, so fuck it, close the thread!
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"I don't care so you shouldn't care!"
This thread is fucking gross. No wonder lots of prominent Asian members left this site.
This thread is fucking gross. No wonder lots of prominent Asian members left this site.
OP is Asian. And there are more than a few Asians in this very thread including me that are confused with the game's depiction. What are you on about?
What I find so weird about it is if this conversation were happening in other ways - for example, if a bunch of gay Republicans were like "I don't see the problem with using the word gay as a slur," but other gay people were like "yeah that bothers me," it's hard for me to believe that majority of posters (here) would be like "see some gay people say it's okay to use gay as an insult, other gay people are just too sensitive, this is just straight people making shit up, no gay person cares about this except on the internet."
Sub in any term/slur. Retarded. Jew. etc
Your post reflects what I came in here to say really.
Sorry OP that people here have taken your valid criticism of this game in a weird but I guess resetera expected kind of way. From posts here it's evident that these stereotypes are so subtle that it doesn't even register. It's obvious to me that the level is asian inspired based on the opening of the music alone.
I'm also deeply disappointed by other asian posters dismissing this. Nowhere did OP state they are representing asians as a whole and to have other asians here to dismiss it and not engage at all in any kind of legit discussion is awful.
Yes, it's obviously me who's derailing the thread.
Plus, there are also bad actors claiming they're x or y and it doesn't bother them so they can shut down the argument.
Sometimes seems to me that the only option not to be banned in this kind of threads it's to say that the op is right and the thing double fine did is racist.
I think it's debatable if the thing is racist, but it's clear that a discussion kind of start with an already considered truth assumption.
I think they went for the sweatshop vibe. I don't think they wanted to depict chinese like shady criminals like the op is arguing
I think it's debatable if the thing is racist, but it's clear that a discussion kind of start with an already considered truth assumption.
I think they went for the sweatshop vibe. I don't think they wanted to depict chinese like shady criminals like the op is arguing
Multiple people have completely dismissed the OP and they haven't been banned so not sure what you're on about.
Even the "sweatshop vibe" isn't a good look since it's also playing up Chinese stereotypes.
That doesn't mean that the stereotype doesn't come from a source of truth. The issue is that the culture is more than that and there isn't alot of "positive" media to counterbalance.
Like if you had idk evil tech corporations in the u.s that labored its workers to death it would be fine since the u.s has plenty of positive cultural capital.
or you know you could just shut up and ignore the thread without injecting into the conversation, OP is not asking for everyone's opinion, they are just pointing out something that bothers them. if you have something meaningful to contribute then say so or like I said... IGNORE
Try to remove yourself from how you frame the thread for a second. You said you're Italian, correct? Whether or not there are Asian stereotypes in the game, does that personally affect you in any way? What importance does the topic have to you besides being a place where you might potentially be banned from a forum? Is the potential of being banned the only major concern that revolves around this thread? Are there other people in this thread that may be affected by them? Are there people who are engaging this topic on different levels or with different motives than you are?
The awkafina thread in off-topic went the same way, day later first few pages were graveyards.
Yes, I was going through the report per the edit I added to my original message. I see where you got your 70-80% figure now:
EU IPO report p.17 said:
So yes, China and HK are a major source of counterfeiting, at least based on this report.
As others have said though, the problem lies in that the sole depiction of Asians in the game is being linked to the idea of counterfeiting, which reinforces a commonly harmful stereotype of Asians. Even if we accept that China & HK are the main sources of counterfeiting, I don't think it's accurate nor fair to paint a whole country of ~1.4 billion people as counterfeiters, do you? And yes, just from this thread, we can see that some won't even read the area/character as Asian, but others will--and that view, as harmless as it may seem to you, can get unconsciously weaved into their general view of Asians, and negatively affect how they interact with Asians.
Several years ago at work, we were discussing reverse-engineering an obsolete component, and the phrase "cheap Chinese knockoff" was said in passing. It was pretty awkward since I'm Chinese-Canadian, and a third of the team was of Asian descent. It was immediately regretted, but what's telling is how naturally the phrase came out. The thing is, I do associate pirated and counterfeit goods with Chinese malls and shops, based on my own experiences in Toronto and in Hong Kong. Still, I think it's unnecessary and uncalled for to tack on the stereotype when you can just say "cheap knockoff".
Anyways, in regards to Psychonauts 2, the fish market part really made me cringe, especially after a wet market in Wuhan was blamed for the covid-19 outbreak. It's easy to not to notice this stuff, but someone did write these lines about carp and catfish.
Anyways, in regards to Psychonauts 2, the fish market part really made me cringe, especially after a wet market in Wuhan was blamed for the covid-19 outbreak. It's easy to not to notice this stuff, but someone did write these lines about carp and catfish.
Also Asian, and yes I agree with this. This is supposed to be offensive?
I just feel like I'm coming at this from the complete opposite direction where I feel like I didn't even notice there was supposed to be chinese/general asian implications with the character alone until I realised half the figments were in kanji/hanzi and the name of the market vendors were really asian
like if anything it wasnt asian enough for me to even register
like if anything it wasnt asian enough for me to even register
The amount of dismissiveness coming from Asians in this thread.
Yes it might not be offensive to you, but please remember that not every Asian is the same and not everyone has the same experiences. Yes there may be Asians who have never faced such issues but there are certainly Asians who live in places were there is heavy stereotyping and/or subtle racism. Just because you do not face these issues does not mean they do not exist for other disaspora where evidently a number of members also agree with OP and find issues with the game.
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Asian (American) here. This level actually gave me pause at first, simply because it was so heavily Chinese themed. It was a bit jarring. That said, other than the fish market vendors, I wasn't particularly bothered by associating negative stuff with Asians per se, certainly not any criminal element. Fanny didn't even read as Asian coded to me, personally. (And I actually wasn't that bothered by the vendors once I listened to them more.)
But REMEMBER, THIS IS CASSIE'S MENTAL INTERPRETATION of a dark place in her life in a dark place in her "real" life, where she was forced to work in an illegal work - LITERALLY learned to disassociate a sliver of her own psyche into a tougher persona that would allow her to get through this trauma, was arrested and forced to take the blame for her boss, and ultimately had to escape from that life (and.. prison..?) by disassociating *once again* into yet another persona. Yes, it's a dark and terrible place. But why wouldn't it be? And yes, that dark and terrible place is in an Asian-coded locale. I think it's totally understandable why people would have a problem with it. I also don't think there's anything inherently wrong and certainly nothing malicious about it.
Jarring that they used Asian theming at all, when everything else in the game seems so disconnected from recognizable real life. (And yet, it's really not. Does the Gzar's story reflect on Eastern Europe.. kinda? eh? Should Psi King's level reflect on the values of 70's America? Or Ford's levels on 50's America? (Or whatever.) Eh... Not really?) It's just that this sub-level is the most instantly uniquely recognizable one in this respect.
It would be entirely uncontroversial if they had made her not Asian. [Even if that meant all the Psychic 7 were white except for the one who became the murderous main antagonist.... I guess...] It is what it is. And I really liked Cassie and her level overall. I understand the criticism. But, I personally, did not have an issue with it.
But REMEMBER, THIS IS CASSIE'S MENTAL INTERPRETATION of a dark place in her life in a dark place in her "real" life, where she was forced to work in an illegal work - LITERALLY learned to disassociate a sliver of her own psyche into a tougher persona that would allow her to get through this trauma, was arrested and forced to take the blame for her boss, and ultimately had to escape from that life (and.. prison..?) by disassociating *once again* into yet another persona. Yes, it's a dark and terrible place. But why wouldn't it be? And yes, that dark and terrible place is in an Asian-coded locale. I think it's totally understandable why people would have a problem with it. I also don't think there's anything inherently wrong and certainly nothing malicious about it.
Jarring that they used Asian theming at all, when everything else in the game seems so disconnected from recognizable real life. (And yet, it's really not. Does the Gzar's story reflect on Eastern Europe.. kinda? eh? Should Psi King's level reflect on the values of 70's America? Or Ford's levels on 50's America? (Or whatever.) Eh... Not really?) It's just that this sub-level is the most instantly uniquely recognizable one in this respect.
It would be entirely uncontroversial if they had made her not Asian. [Even if that meant all the Psychic 7 were white except for the one who became the murderous main antagonist.... I guess...] It is what it is. And I really liked Cassie and her level overall. I understand the criticism. But, I personally, did not have an issue with it.
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OP
OP
Cassie isn't a real person though, so it's really the developers' choice to present Asia like this using negative stereotypes, not some real person's negative memories. Although I would side eye a real person who's conception of Asia was "dirty food markets, counterfeiters, and untrustworthy scammers I need to run away from" as well tbh. This seems similar to other "the plot requires the racism/sexism" justifications, like how we should be ashamed of our words and deeds because Quiet needs to breathe from her skin, and therefore her sexualization is justified by the plot.
Also the slant eyes depiction of Cassie isn't in her mind but is in the psychonauts hq.
Thank you for the awareness about this. So there really isn't any positive depictions about Asians or Asian culture in the game? Being a South Asian, I'm used to expecting only negative depictions, racism, or victimising portrayals of my culture or home country, so having only one form of representation can be debilitating. Like is this all we are to you?
The character in question is well written, voiced by an Asian-American voice actress. There aren't real world locations in Psychonauts, but if the soundtrack is any indication her mindscape is at least partially based on Shanghai and seemingly not successfully. The games (especially the first) do lean into stereotypes for comedy. Its worth watching the playthrough linked in OP to get an idea.
I haven't gotten to that level yet so I'm just reading what everyone else thinks but I just wanted to say that your tone is a bit too confusingly hostile. In a (healthy) interracial relationship, talking about how the other person views racial representation and what changes they want to see in media is like a third date conversation and it would be totally normal for someone to understand how their spouse feels about those things.
However, I get being skeptical of any second-hand account being shared on the internet because I have seen people on forums pretend to be a minority or pretend that they know a minority to try to sway a conversation, but it's important to specify that the problem is that you can't debate somebody who isn't present rather than that a person wouldn't know what their spouse really thinks about something like this.
Maybe I'm being pedantic.
I'm not east Asian and I've never tweeted before but I don't see anyone else doing it so:
It looks like you can't direct message him so I just used the @ thingamobob.
Sure. If it was any other topic or thread. But we're talking about sensitive issues that affect Asians, so the rules aren't the same. This is meant to be a thread where minorities can make their voices heard, but we had a white person use their Asian wife to defend their statements. It comes off sounding like "But I have a black friend" or other similar remarks that are used to deflect criticism and legitimise their" understanding" as being on par with ours. It's a tactic used time and time again to undermine minority voices, because having a friend or wife suddenly makes them an additional "legitimate voice" in the room, but we know that ain't flying.
Maybe some people do have an actual good understanding of their spouse's culture. But any good spouse would let their significant other speak for themselves, and not try speak on behalf of them, especially when it's an important or sensitive topic. Especially, in cases like this when its used as a counter-argument against ACTUAL minorities speaking in the room.
Listen. To. Minorities.
My post came off hostile because in almost every thread discussing Asian issues, there is always a "My Asian wife" thinks this or that, and I am so over it. If you've been reading ERA long enough to start posting in sensitive threads, you know this is the red line and this makes Asians very upset, so why do it people?
It definitely made me a bit uncomfortable when I saw it, and I think some of the imagery could have used some...eh, tweaking, but am I the only person who thought that the thing they were going for was pre-war British Hong Kong , where specifically a lot of the friction and crime we associate with that kind of depiction was a result of a bunch of westerners basically exploiting Hong Kong as their cash cow trading post?
OP
OP
I could see it, although Psychonauts 2 soundtrack apparently calls the track "Cassie's Library and Shanghai Memories" so it's like based on Shanghai.
Official Staff Communication
"As a reminder, if you're Asian and disagree with the thread premise, then you can do so without being dismissive of those who do find the depictions to be problematic. If you're not Asian, then it's best to listen to and consider what Asian members have said before posting. Carry on."
My main concern is that this tends to happen in threads of Asian issues of any sort when nobody steps in. Relevant voices are stepped over to dismiss the topic as neatly as possible, usually because asking for even the slightest amount of recognition of racism is too many for many. That had already started to happen in this thread, where the OP was started to be delegitimized under claims that they were actually because surely only a white person overreacting, presumably because a real Asian wouldn't think this was racist. That specific behaviour is also one I've seen before.
While I recognize that you'd have access to someone else's views on racial representation in a marriage, if you look at the post again, note how it says "she would be scratching her head" not "she is scratching her head". He didn't ask for his wife what she thought and relay that, he was assuming what her views would be and using his wife as license for that that assumption to be taken as of equal value to a direct statement. Tone and decorum is less of an issue than if racial representation is able to be questioned without reactively being shouted down.
Now, I don't think the guy's wife or anyone else has to agree with the OP, and plenty have disagreed without much pushback if I'm not mistaken. I also don't think anyone should be excluded from the conversation, but people do have differing level of connection to an issue, so some people can discuss the matter as a personally relevant issue and some people can only discuss it from an academic standpoint. For some people, the concern with how this thread is moderated is that it demonstrates the pattern of how discussions of issues regarding Asians in general or more specific Asian cultures will be treated on the forum, while for others the only concern is that any time they're discussing sensitive subject matter they're risking getting banned. The person with the greatest distance should not be granted control over the conversation, and probably shouldn't be presented as the greatest authority over the subject matter.
This thread is reminding me of the monster hunter movie topic with the racist jokes...and people dismising or excusing it.
I'm half Chinese living in the UK. I don't really know my British family because many of them had an issue with my dad marrying a Chinese woman.
I was raised by my Chinese family in the UK and regularly go to China to see other family. I personally experience difficulties in both cultures because I rarely get accepted as white in the UK while I also don't get accepted a lot as Chinese in China.
I don't have strong feelings about the depictions in Psychonauts 2. I feel it's misguided and in poor taste but not necessarily malicious. That doesn't make it okay but I personally don't get offended by it. I think it's good to have discussions about it so people can be more aware of stereotypes. I am a bit disappointed by how some people are carrying themselves in this thread though.
I tend to keep myself fairly low key on this forum and I'm a bit anxious about posting this but felt I probably should.
I was raised by my Chinese family in the UK and regularly go to China to see other family. I personally experience difficulties in both cultures because I rarely get accepted as white in the UK while I also don't get accepted a lot as Chinese in China.
I don't have strong feelings about the depictions in Psychonauts 2. I feel it's misguided and in poor taste but not necessarily malicious. That doesn't make it okay but I personally don't get offended by it. I think it's good to have discussions about it so people can be more aware of stereotypes. I am a bit disappointed by how some people are carrying themselves in this thread though.
I tend to keep myself fairly low key on this forum and I'm a bit anxious about posting this but felt I probably should.
The art style of Psychonauts, of exaggerated body shapes and twisted facial features can very easily lean into existing stereotypes when trying to portray non-white people. The one black character with the huge lips is one such case, and certainly the looks of Cassie too.
I don't think Double Fine is intentionally doing this, but it's something where having more diversity in the team and awareness of how things might look to people of different background would probably help avoid the worst offences.
I am not on social media, but I agree with what other people in the thread have suggested and get in contact with Double Fine. They seem really cool about these kinds of issues and would probably take feedback like this to heart.
I don't think Double Fine is intentionally doing this, but it's something where having more diversity in the team and awareness of how things might look to people of different background would probably help avoid the worst offences.
I am not on social media, but I agree with what other people in the thread have suggested and get in contact with Double Fine. They seem really cool about these kinds of issues and would probably take feedback like this to heart.