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Hero

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,747

Can you address why you think Terry being the must pick for SNK/FF/KoF representation is silly or are you conceding on that point?

Here are the additions to the base roster of Smash Bros Ultimate:
  • Daisy
  • King K Rool
  • Ridley
  • Dark Samus
  • Incineroar
  • Chrom
  • Isabelle
  • Inkling
  • Ken
  • Simon
  • Richter
Out of 11 characters, 5 of them are non-humans to begin with (can be 6 since Inklings are their own thing).

5 of them are Echo Fighters (Daisy, Dark Samus, Chrom, Ken, and Richter)

Like, for new reps it's K Rool, Ridley, Incineroar, Isabelle, Inkling, and Simon. K Rool and Ridley have been fan demands for years and multiple iterations and are just now getting their slot.

Every fighting game has characters that re-uses data/assets to cut down on development time and it's really hard for me to begin to agree with you when you want to call that low effort, despite Sakurai saying that the vision was to include all the previous characters in the series.
 

Mekanos

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 17, 2018
44,126
It's weird.
Skull Kid, Midna, and Ghirahim- iconic and highly popular LoZ favs who happen to be major characters in their games- have only been able to make it in as mere assist trophies. At the most Urbosa is a minor character on the level of someone like Saria or Princess Ruto who only appears in, like, three cutscenes of a 50+ hour game...why anyone thinks Sakurai would ever look her way is beyond me.

People are desperate for a Zelda character that isn't a Triforce user even though most of them are relatively insignificant characters. Urbosa gets brought up mostly because BOTW is so popular and recent alongside the other champions. I don't think it's anything more than wishful thinking.
 

Deleted member 60312

User requested account closure
Banned
Sep 29, 2019
19
[QUOTE="Hero, post: 25008925, member: 3153"

I still do not understand what you are implying by "women in Smash are all too often treated as secondary characters."

In Brawl, the only female character added was a second version of Samus.

IN Smash 4, we got Rosalina, Palutena, Mii Gunner, Bayonetta, and Wii Fit Trainer for fully unique default female characters. Much of the new female cast was secondary or derivative.

And same with Smash 4, the female cast we are getting is mainly derivative or alts, with Inkling being the only fully unique female default character added. Isabelle is commendable but she is a semi-clone. When women are told that things aren't as bad because there is relatively low-effort content for female characters, women are invariably going to ask for more than scraps.
[/QUOTE]
The fact you have to try and discredit several female characters because they're not the defaults says a lot about you. Meanwhile, I only play as Nana when I use the Ice Climbers, which is one of the costumes.

EDIT: wtf happened to the format?
 

Kinanza

Member
Jun 25, 2018
577
Never played Skyward Sword here. Is SS Impa a major character in the story compared to OoT Impa (who we've seen like, only a number times throughout the game)?
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,956
In Brawl, the only female character added was a second version of Samus.

IN Smash 4, we got Rosalina, Palutena, Mii Gunner, Bayonetta, and Wii Fit Trainer for fully unique default female characters. Much of the new female cast was secondary or derivative.

And same with Smash 4, the female cast we are getting is mainly derivative or alts, with Inkling being the only fully unique female default character added. Isabelle is commendable but she is a semi-clone. When women are told that things aren't as bad because there is relatively low-effort content for female characters, women are invariably going to ask for more than scraps.
The fact you have to try and discredit several female characters because they're not the defaults says a lot about you. Meanwhile, I only play as Nana when I use the Ice Climbers, which is one of the costumes.

EDIT: wtf happened to the format?
[/QUOTE]

I guess I'm confused why it says anything about me besides me wanting to give more priority and effort for female characters than we have now. Sounds like " the true sexists are the ones who talk about sexism" tripe lol
 

Acido

Member
Oct 31, 2017
1,098
I don't give a fuck about "the rules" I don't give a fuck if they're the "protagonists" of their series. I'm so tired of getting the same character over and over again. The last exciting character this series got was Bayonetta. She's such an unique character, an oasis in a desert of main dudes ™ and soulless avatars.
 

BassForever

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
29,920
CT
People who consider mii gunner to be a female character blow my mind. The whole point of the mii fighters is to put yourself into Smash, or to put any character you wish into the roster. This "default costume" argument has and will always be nonsense from people who are always trying to move the goalpost.

Take Pokemon Trainer for a second, Sakurai did not have to even bother including a female skin, but went out of his way to do so including recording new lines to help give players more female characters to choose from. Instead of viewing this as a positive Leaf is "not the default" and is treated like some afterthought.

Were either the first added from their franchise?

Isabella didn't even exist when Smash WiiU/3ds went into development. The first AC character to be included was the player character who had an even number of male and female skins in wiiu/3ds, and was given male and female poc skins in Ultimate. Sadly I guess all of that was pointless because Villager is a "white male" according to a lot of people in this thread despite the majority of villagers skins being female or black 🤷‍♀️
 

ClickyCal'

Member
Oct 25, 2017
59,510
I don't give a fuck about "the rules" I don't give a fuck if they're the "protagonists" of their series. I'm so tired of getting the same character over and over again. The last exciting character this series got was Bayonetta. She's such an unique character, an oasis in a desert of main dudes ™ and soulless avatars.
4 of the 6 launch characters are isabelle, incineroar, k.rool, and ridley. The two there that are male are both essentially monsters and villains, plus piranha plant which is borderline launch.
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,956
People who consider mii gunner to be a female character blow my mind. The whole point of the mii fighters is to put yourself into Smash, or to put any character you wish into the roster. This "default costume" argument has and will always be nonsense from people who are always trying to move the goalpost.

Take Pokemon Trainer for a second, Sakurai did not have to even bother including a female skin, but went out of his way to do so including recording new lines to help give players more female characters to choose from. Instead of viewing this as a positive Leaf is "not the default" and is treated like some afterthought.

Female Trainer is an afterthought though? Like literally, she was added years later. People are clamouring for Sakurai to put in a comparable amount of effort for female characters as he does make, because male characters typically receive more effort and attention in Smash.
 
Jan 2, 2018
1,501
Massachusetts
Not to say that Echoes solve the problem here, but at the very least, having Kumatora, Paula, and Doc Louis as Echoes would be a start, and a bit easier to implement since they already have models in the game. Sure enough, I typed "smash bros mod kumatora" into google and got this:

 

ClickyCal'

Member
Oct 25, 2017
59,510
Not to say that Echoes solve the problem here, but at the very least, having Kumatora, Paula, and Doc Louis as Echoes would be a start, and a bit easier to implement since they already have models in the game. Sure enough, I typed "smash bros mod kumatora" into google and got this:


Doc wouldn't work at all as an echo considering the kind of huge differece he has with little mac. I would love him playable, but yea.
 

Mekanos

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 17, 2018
44,126
I don't give a fuck about "the rules" I don't give a fuck if they're the "protagonists" of their series. I'm so tired of getting the same character over and over again. The last exciting character this series got was Bayonetta. She's such an unique character, an oasis in a desert of main dudes ™ and soulless avatars.

Did you miss the entire base game or what
 

NotLiquid

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
34,755
Female Trainer is an afterthought though? Like literally, she was added years later. People are clamouring for Sakurai to put in a comparable amount of effort for female characters as he does make, because male characters typically receive more effort and attention in Smash.
I really don't see how she's an afterthought at all considering she even got dubbed and had completely different animations, and extrapolating her to be one based on her absence in Brawl is flawed thinking. The reason she wasn't added to Brawl was likely less because the devs didn't think of it and more to do with the fact that Trainer was a total resource hog that was way too ambitious both technically and for the development schedule, especially since Brawl was an incredibly crunch developed game.

Just the matter of getting alt costumes alone in Brawl was the exception rather than the rule - Wario being the only exception in fact.
 

MoonToon

Banned
Nov 9, 2018
2,029
That's kind of the same thing for me, which is among the reasons why I kinda fell out of the Smash speculation cycle. As for Piranha Plant specifically, while I understand that Sakurai likes his WTF picks (I mean, that's what got us Wii Fit Trainer, after all), it seemed like a tone-deaf pick given the lack of women on the roster. Granted, it wasn't as bad as it is now, but I suppose hindsight is 20/20.

Still, while the industry at large is the major problem that should be corrected, you're right in that Sakurai also bears a decent chunk of the blame. He (& Nintendo, at least for DLC) is(/are) in a position where they could bring in some popular women. But for one reason or another, he(/they) just doesn't(/don't). Like you, it's kinda made me indifferent towards Sakurai's picks as of recently.
Yeah, the industry as a whole isn't super helpful on this front. We're living in an age where indies and small games are exploding onto the scene in part because many creators are willing to make interesting, diverse characters well many of the big bois stick to generic blank white dudes.

But that being said the West has been more diverse with their company leads through out time. Portal was one of those break out hits and it's Protag (Chell) was an East Asian woman. Lora Croft is prob the most iconic stand alone female in all of gaming. PoP USE to be a big deal for Ubisoft before they started pumpin out Asscreeds. Tracer is currently the face of the OW. EA had Mirror's Edge, Ubi had beyond good and evil, even Nintendo had Eternal Darkness made by a western dev back in the GC days. TellTale gave us a series about a black man taking on the daddy role for a lil black girl who becomes the series protag after he dies.

Am I listing these characters to say that they could ALL be in smash? Nope. I mean, LC is a no brainer. She's one of the great gaming icons and even as she struggles to find an identity in today's climate she's still relevant today. Tracer could also easily make it into smash now and no one would call BS. But characters like the PoP and Jade would be questionable because of how their companies have moved past them over the past decade and the rest are just straight never-evers.
Are Western devs "doing just fiiiine" with diversity? Nope, all the Shantaes and Dandaras in the world aren't gonna mean shit if the big bois don't make more big stars outta characters like them or if they don't break out to become the faces that make their lil companies become big bois.
But I feel like the West is far more aware of this and has had far more diversity than the JPN devs and it becomes very clear when you have Sakurai openly pushing for more 3rd party JPN dev reps annnnnd yeah, they're all dudes
You know, people whine about Fire Emblem, but Byleth, implemented in the style of pokemon trainer( three house lords doing the actual fighting), would give us both a female rep and a PoC rep at the same time.

I can't believe how many people are sleeping on a such an obvious idea.

Also, Three Houses is popular AF and this would sell as well as most 3rd party DLC they can think of.
I've been screamin this for the longest, people whine about it not making sense for the game.
To that I say "Shove it". The whole point of the game is you're their loving and attentive Prof who, through your relationship with who ever you decide to teach, guilds and elevates them to being their best self and enacting the change they wish to see in the world.
Could easily see a trailer where Rhea says "Prof, we got this invitation in the mail. It seems like a combat field mission ... Who would you like to bring?" And Prof chooses all 3 as a play on Corrin's Smash trailer.
.
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,956
I really don't see how she's an afterthought at all considering she even got dubbed and had completely different animations, and extrapolating her to be one based on her absence in Brawl is flawed thinking. The reason she wasn't added to Brawl was likely less because the devs didn't think of it and more to do with the fact that Trainer was a total resource hog that was way too ambitious both technically and for the development schedule.

Just the matter of getting alt costumes alone in Brawl was the exception rather than the rule - Wario being the only exception in fact.

I don't know that Leaf would have been a resource hog at all, or contribute to it anyway. Like, it's not as though she takes more effort than Red, or that having her as an option makes Trainer on the whole more strenuous to work.
 

Regulus Tera

Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,458
Not to say that Echoes solve the problem here, but at the very least, having Kumatora, Paula, and Doc Louis as Echoes would be a start, and a bit easier to implement since they already have models in the game. Sure enough, I typed "smash bros mod kumatora" into google and got this:


Kumatora should not be an echo, mostly because she's not the size of a little kid.
 

NotLiquid

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
34,755
I don't know that Leaf would have been a resource hog at all, or contribute to it anyway. Like, it's not as though she takes more effort than Red, or that having her as an option makes Trainer on the whole more strenuous to work.
You can't see how making and rigging a new model, adding differentiating animations and getting VAs for seven different regions on a game that was on a rushed time table for a character that was already a monstrous undertaking wouldn't put a strain on already extremely tight development time? Characters take a lot longer to make than people realize - hell the fact that models alone take time to make was the main reason we lost Trophies in Ultimate.
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,956
Not a 1:1 like Daisy, maybe not even a proper Echo, but perhaps something like a safer but less powerful version of Mac.

Honestly, it's really frustrating to me because Little Mac should have been safer and less powerful. Mac's moveset feels almost more appropriate to be for a Punch-Out!! boss (which Doc Louis was once), whereas Mac should be more about counterplay and quick weak jabs.
 

Deleted member 60312

User requested account closure
Banned
Sep 29, 2019
19
Female Trainer is an afterthought though? Like literally, she was added years later. People are clamouring for Sakurai to put in a comparable amount of effort for female characters as he does make, because male characters typically receive more effort and attention in Smash.
You're completely missing the point. The female trainers are ACTUAL characters. They aren't just some lazy ass reskin. It doesn't MATTER that the game doesn't default to them, because that doesn't make them any less valid. All it means, is that they couldn't justify giving them an entirely new slot on the roster since they shared the same moveset.
 

Mekanos

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 17, 2018
44,126
Sakurai and their team aren't going to devote the time and resources to three fully unique characters from one game. The last time that happened was Pokemon Trainer... which is from one of the most popular Nintendo games of all time. Three Houses ain't anywhere near that.

Like it just isn't happening. It's a completely unrealistic fantasy. They're going to use those resources elsewhere.
 
Jan 2, 2018
1,501
Massachusetts
Kumatora should not be an echo, mostly because she's not the size of a little kid.
Whether or not she's a proper echo isn't the point, it's that her development would be comparatively easy since she's already got a functioning model and moveset.
Honestly, it's really frustrating to me because Little Mac should have been safer and less powerful. Mac's moveset feels almost more appropriate to be for a Punch-Out!! boss (which Doc Louis was once), whereas Mac should be more about counterplay and quick weak jabs.
Yeah, that makes sense, I suppose they just wanted to have more simple heavy hitters available. Smash 4 added a lot of speedy and technical characters, after all.
 

Hero

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,747
Sakurai: *Puts in not only Joker but the entire Phantom Thieves in the game and the stage, including all their Japanese and English Voice Actors to record lines.*

Sakurai: *Creates 4 models to depict the main characters of 4 Dragon Quest games, including Voice Actors, gives them the most amount of special moves in the game*

Sakurai: *Works with Microsoft to get Banjo-Kazooie in the game, works with the original composer of BK to make sure the iconic music is in the stage.*

Random people on the internet: Lazy devs.
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,956
You're completely missing the point. The female trainers are ACTUAL characters. They aren't just some lazy ass reskin. It doesn't MATTER that the game doesn't default to them, because that doesn't make them any less valid. All it means, is that they couldn't justify giving them an entirely new slot on the roster since they shared the same moveset.

Beyond the fact that not being a default means that we don't get amiibo for them and they get little in the way of marketing, it's a moot point when people are asking for female characters to receive equal attention and effort to male characters. Female Trainer being added is nice, but it is not a substitute for that. This is what I mean:

Fully unique male characters:

Mario
Bowser
Bowser Jr.
Donkey Kong
Diddy Kong
King K. Rool
Wario
Yoshi
Pikachu
Link
Kirby (gendered male in the US anyway)
Meta Knight
King Dedede
Ridley
Marth
Ike
Shulk
Cloud
Ryu
Sonic
Snake
Pac-Man
Mega Man
Mr. Game & Watch
R.O.B.
Ness
Captain Falcon
Olimar
Pit
Little Mac
Fox
Simon
Joker
Hero
Terry

Same for women:

Peach
Rosalina & Luma
Zelda
Sheik
Samus
Zero Suit Samus
Palutena
Bayonetta

More than 4x the number of characters with fully original characters for men than women. Is it not okay to criticize that disparity?

Not a 1:1 like Daisy, maybe not even a proper Echo, but perhaps something like a safer but less powerful version of Mac.

Honestly, it's really frustrating to me because Little Mac should have been safer and less powerful. Mac's moveset feels almost more appropriate to be for a Punch-Out!! boss (which Doc Louis was once), whereas Mac should be more about counterplay and quick weak jabs.

You can't see how making and rigging a new model, adding differentiating animations and getting VAs for seven different regions on a game that was on a rushed time table for a character that was already a monstrous undertaking wouldn't put a strain on already extremely tight development time? Characters take a lot longer to make than people realize - hell the fact that models alone take time to make was the main reason we lost Trophies in Ultimate.

I'm talking about the comment that Trainer was intensive, and arguing that Leaf wouldn't make Trainer a more complicated or intensive character.

Sakurai: *Puts in not only Joker but the entire Phantom Thieves in the game and the stage, including all their Japanese and English Voice Actors to record lines.*

Sakurai: *Creates 4 models to depict the main characters of 4 Dragon Quest games, including Voice Actors, gives them the most amount of special moves in the game*

Sakurai: *Works with Microsoft to get Banjo-Kazooie in the game, works with the original composer of BK to make sure the iconic music is in the stage.*

Random people on the internet: Lazy devs.

I didn't expect to see the rebuttal to "women don't get adequate attention in Smash" be "what about things that have nothing to do with women at all?" The issue is not that Sakurai is "lazy," it's that we want him to redirect his efforts to things we care more about.

And TBH, it's not helping your argument much to bring up a character who has four female characters who could have easily been included, even in the Final Smash, or even in any capacity in Smash, and did not. That's like, Patient 0 for a lot of people to why people are so frustrated with the roster, because people thought it was a given that we would at least get female alts.
 
Last edited:

jnWake

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,108
If they add anyone from 3H it'd probably be Byleth, anyone of the main trio would be controversial since people would complain about the others not getting in. However, since the 3 main lords have unique weapons (for Smash), I'd love if any of them made it. Claude would be my pick.
 

Hero

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,747
I didn't expect to see the rebuttal to "women don't get adequate attention in Smash" be "what about things that have nothing to do with women at all?"

My rebuttal is to your ludicrous goalpost moving of what "counts" in your eyes as inclusion, despite me and several other people disagreeing with you and pointing out that your logic is flawed. No where have I ever stated I didn't want more women and/or POC in Smash. Your constant attempts to basically call the developers lazy is laughable. You've failed to even respond to points against your criticisms (still waiting on that more iconic and important to SNK/FF/KoF character than Terry).
 

NotLiquid

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
34,755
I'm talking about the comment that Trainer was intensive, and arguing that Leaf wouldn't make Trainer a more complicated or intensive character.

I think you seem to be under the impression that my comment on resource intensive is a comment on the game running it, when it's not. I'm talking about development resources, and making an alternate costume absolutely would be intensive when you have make it, reanimate it and make seven new dubs for it.

Also re: your comment that being an alt disqualifies them for an amiibo; it doesn't. Corrin got an Amiibo of the female version, and actually gets a whole lot of in-game representation via menu graphics and even the Classic Mode mural which male Corrin doesn't get. There's a possibility that they'll add female trainer in a P2 wave since they stagger amiibo releases (Trainer itself was released separate from Squirtle and Ivysaur).
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,956
My rebuttal is to your ludicrous goalpost moving of what "counts" in your eyes as inclusion, despite me and several other people disagreeing with you and pointing out that your logic is flawed. No where have I ever stated I didn't want more women and/or POC in Smash. Your constant attempts to basically call the developers lazy is laughable. You've failed to even respond to points against your criticisms (still waiting on that more iconic and important to SNK/FF/KoF character than Terry).

The best sign of weakness for an argument is when they have to make things up. Me saying that Sakurai is not putting enough effort into female representation has nothing to do with "lazy dev" rhetoric, it has to do with disagreeing with how Sakurai prioritizes work in Smash. That you read it as the "lazy dev" rhetoric says quite a bit about you.

Objectively speaking, male characters get more work and attention than female characters on average. And I've never moved goalposts on what "counts." I have been arguing all this time that Sakurai has not done enough for female representation in Smash, and always made my argument about wanting to see more fully actualized women in Smash.

And finally, I don't have to present a "more iconic and important" character than Terry for SNK. Terry is the most iconic SNK character. The only thing I need to present is proof that it is reasonable for an SNK guest character to not be Terry, and the fact that he is not always the SNK guest character is that proof.
 

Deleted member 60312

User requested account closure
Banned
Sep 29, 2019
19
Beyond the fact that not being a default means that we don't get amiibo for them and they get little in the way of marketing, it's a moot point when people are asking for female characters to receive equal attention and effort to male characters. Female Trainer being added is nice, but it is not a substitute for that. This is what I mean:

Fully unique male characters:

Mario
Bowser
Bowser Jr.
Donkey Kong
Diddy Kong
King K. Rool
Wario
Yoshi
Pikachu
Link
Kirby (gendered male in the US anyway)
Meta Knight
King Dedede
Ridley
Marth
Ike
Shulk
Cloud
Ryu
Sonic
Snake
Pac-Man
Mega Man
Mr. Game & Watch
R.O.B.
Ness
Captain Falcon
Olimar
Pit
Little Mac
Fox
Simon
Joker
Hero
Terry

Same for women:

Peach
Rosalina & Luma
Zelda
Sheik
Samus
Zero Suit Samus
Palutena
Bayonetta

More than 4x the number of characters with fully original characters for men than women. Is it not okay to criticize that disparity?



Honestly, it's really frustrating to me because Little Mac should have been safer and less powerful. Mac's moveset feels almost more appropriate to be for a Punch-Out!! boss (which Doc Louis was once), whereas Mac should be more about counterplay and quick weak jabs.



I'm talking about the comment that Trainer was intensive, and arguing that Leaf wouldn't make Trainer a more complicated or intensive character.



I didn't expect to see the rebuttal to "women don't get adequate attention in Smash" be "what about things that have nothing to do with women at all?" The issue is not that Sakurai is "lazy," it's that we want him to redirect his efforts to things we care more about.

And TBH, it's not helping your argument much to bring up a character who has four female characters who could have easily been included, even in the Final Smash, or even in any capacity in Smash, and did not. That's like, Patient 0 for a lot of people to why people are so frustrated with the roster, because people thought it was a given that we would at least get female alts.
But they DO have amiibos. If you pick them as the alt costume, you straight up have them as the default for your amiibo fighter. Again, I freaking Main NANA, ffs. You're ignoring Pikachu Libre, along with several other characters(too many to name off the top of my head) that are female.
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,956
But they DO have amiibos. If you pick them as the alt costume, you straight up have them as the default for your amiibo fighter. Again, I freaking Main NANA, ffs. You're ignoring Pikachu Libre, along with several other characters(too many to name off the top of my head) that are female.

Indeed, I did choose not to factor alts into my lists of characters who are completely original, because they are not completely original. And what I've been saying in this thread is that I want Sakurai to make more completely original female characters. People who criticize Smash's representation of women are not a monolith, so what someone else said is not relevant to what I'm saying.

I'm also referring to the amiibo figures, not amiibo fighters.
 

ned_ballad

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
48,220
Rochester, New York
I don't give a fuck about "the rules" I don't give a fuck if they're the "protagonists" of their series. I'm so tired of getting the same character over and over again. The last exciting character this series got was Bayonetta. She's such an unique character, an oasis in a desert of main dudes ™ and soulless avatars.
I'm curious in what way do you find the following three protagonists to be the same character?

Super-Smash-Bros-Ultimate-how-to-refill-ink-inkling.jpg

super_smash_bros_ultimate_simon-5.jpg

smash-6-768x432.jpg
 
Jan 2, 2018
1,501
Massachusetts
But they DO have amiibos. If you pick them as the alt costume, you straight up have them as the default for your amiibo fighter. Again, I freaking Main NANA, ffs. You're ignoring Pikachu Libre, along with several other characters(too many to name off the top of my head) that are female.
The point is that a considerable number of female characters only get in the game when they're tied to or based off a male character.
 

Deleted member 60312

User requested account closure
Banned
Sep 29, 2019
19
The point is that a considerable number of female characters only get in the game when they're tied to or based off a male character.
You realize that pokemon trainer isn't based off the male, right? She's based off the concept of being a pokemon trainer! Don't even try that argument with me.
EDIT: In fact, In that case, Dark samus shouldn't be allowed to be on her list in that case. Or inkling. Or literally any female character other than samus, because samus is the one that showed that you could HAVE a strong female character.Which means they were all based on her, therefore, they aren't valid. Do you see now how flawed this logic is?
 

MoonToon

Banned
Nov 9, 2018
2,029
Sakurai and their team aren't going to devote the time and resources to three fully unique characters from one game.
They legit did this for Pokemon for zero reason other than thinking it was a cool idea/ cool way to rep the games. It wasn't a part of their mandated new gen Pokemon quota, he just did it.
"But Pokemon is the biggest-"
IDGAF, I have been on these Smash streets for long enough to remember when People would say "No WAY we're getting a starter!" cause in their minds they made up a rule that the starters are a packaged deal where in all 3 are the same in importance and there's no way Sakurai was gonna make 3 whole brand new unique move-sets for Pokemon, right?

Nothing seems very likely until it happens.
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,956
You realize that pokemon trainer isn't based off the male, right? She's based off the concept of being a pokemon trainer! Don't even try that argument with me.
EDIT: In fact, In that case, Dark samus shouldn't be allowed to be on her list in that case. Or inkling. Or literally any female character other than samus, because samus is the one that showed that you could HAVE a strong female character.Which means they were all based on her, therefore, they aren't valid. Do you see now how flawed this logic is?


I think you misunderstood? No character is based on being male or female (not any that I can think of anyway), they're making the point that a lot of female characters only got in because they work as alts or Echo Fighters.

EDIT: What...? I'm talking about based on their movesets, not conceptually. I also didn't even list Dark Samus or Inkling, I left out characters who had gender alts or were Echoes from both lists (just so you know, this actually makes the disparity smaller, so if you want me to add them I'd be happy to claim that the gender disparity is even worse).
 

Regulus Tera

Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,458
This might be controversial, but I do find some of the complaints about representation to be, while worthwhile and exemplary of some of the long-running problems in the video game industry, a bit near-sighted in terms of reach. Just look at how Terry was received by players in Latin America, even if he's canonically a pretty blonde blue-eyed gringo.
 

Deleted member 60312

User requested account closure
Banned
Sep 29, 2019
19
This might be controversial, but I do find some of the complaints about representation to be, while worthwhile and exemplary of some of the long-running problems in the video game industry, a bit near-sighted in terms of reach. Just look at how Terry was received by players in Latin America, even if he's canonically a pretty blonde blue-eyed gringo.
Finally, someone else that looks at the bigger picture. I like you.
 

Hero

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,747
The best sign of weakness for an argument is when they have to make things up. Me saying that Sakurai is not putting enough effort into female representation has nothing to do with "lazy dev" rhetoric, it has to do with disagreeing with how Sakurai prioritizes work in Smash. That you read it as the "lazy dev" rhetoric says quite a bit about you.

Objectively speaking, male characters get more work and attention than female characters on average. And I've never moved goalposts on what "counts." I have been arguing all this time that Sakurai has not done enough for female representation in Smash, and always made my argument about wanting to see more fully actualized women in Smash.

And finally, I don't have to present a "more iconic and important" character than Terry for SNK. Terry is the most iconic SNK character. The only thing I need to present is proof that it is reasonable for an SNK guest character to not be Terry, and the fact that he is not always the SNK guest character is that proof.

You're the one that has repeatedly said "low-effort", which comes across as "lazy dev" rhetoric.

Terry has in the past not been the character to represent SNK in crossover works, so this notion that he MUST be the choice seems rather silly.

Also, people are not claiming that Trainer and Corrin do not count, they are making the point that women in Smash are all too often treated as secondary characters. We want more women with effort put into their designs.

When women are told that things aren't as bad because there is relatively low-effort content for female characters, women are invariably going to ask for more than scraps.

Your statement that another SNK rep could've gotten in just because others were crossovers in other games is just ludicrous. Sakurai clearly goes for the most iconic characters that will make the most amount of people happy, as evident by every single character selection over the last 20 years of the franchise. Putting in some other lesser known character just for the sake of checkmarking a box for diversity is how to confuse and disappoint a lot of people. What you should be crusading against is the game industry's history itself.
 

Deleted member 57020

User requested account closure
Banned
May 25, 2019
170
User Banned (A week): Dismissing concerns on representation. User in junior phase.
Do people really not understand how eye-rolling it is to say this game is not diverse enough when there's so much variety in characters? It just doesn't have gender/racial parity which might be bad in real-life, but this is a videogame full of non-humans.
 

Mekanos

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 17, 2018
44,126
They legit did this for Pokemon for zero reason other than thinking it was a cool idea/ cool way to rep the games. It wasn't a part of their mandated new gen Pokemon quota, he just did it.
"But Pokemon is the biggest-"
IDGAF, I have been on these Smash streets for long enough to remember when People would say "No WAY we're getting a starter!" cause in their minds they made up a rule that the starters are a packaged deal where in all 3 are the same in importance and there's no way Sakurai was gonna make 3 whole brand new unique move-sets for Pokemon, right?

Nothing seems very likely until it happens.

A Three Houses 3-in-1 character has a less than zero chance of happening. Smash characters aren't handed out like candy.
 

Pancracio17

▲ Legend ▲
Avenger
Oct 29, 2017
18,710
The discussion of diversity in Smash always felt a bit too wierd for me. All of their character choices make complete sense individually and from a purely Smash perspective. I dont know if I can really fault the game developers for choosing the best characters for their game, even if it means having a lot more men than women and a lack of people of color.

Its hard to put into words but I think that despite the lack of diversity, it makes sense for Smash to be like this. Its not like they skipped characters because they were women or PoC, they just didnt get the chance or they ran out of dev time. If you should criticize anything, its the industry for making most of their human protags white dudes, especially early on in the 90's and 90's.
I'm curious in what way do you find the following three protagonists to be the same character?

Super-Smash-Bros-Ultimate-how-to-refill-ink-inkling.jpg

super_smash_bros_ultimate_simon-5.jpg

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They all have angry eyes.