Super Smash Bros Ultimate has 19 white male characters (6 of which are blue eyed / blonde hair), and 0 women of color

IntelliHeath · Sep 29, 2019

I think the fans could help Nintendo to fix those errors by writing more feedbacks to Nintendo and branches of Nintendo to demands more diversity and genders as main characters and also keep nagging them on social media. They will eventually slowly adapt and keep those requests in their minds, as it evidently worked with Animal Crossing, Splatoon and Ring Con Main characters. Just don't give up on your goals until they eventually recognize their errors and probably adds more diversity through main protagonists then future Smash Bros could induce them in their roster.

I myself would love to see more diverse characters in Smash Bros but I kept getting choked when I look at main protagonists only; so their best chances to have PoC in the roster is Skyward Swords Impa, Ring Con Trainer, Urbosa, double inclusion of Spring Man and Twintelle, and Elma.

Would love to see Urbosa getting in tho since her design is pretty awesome.

TyraZaurus · Sep 29, 2019

I realize that Japanese characters in a Japanese game don't necessarily make things more diverse, but I'm concerned as to why this post presumably categorizes so many of the fantasy characters as white. Link, Shulk, etc. aren't white, they're Japanese, by virtue of being created by Japanese people.

FluxWaveZ · Sep 29, 2019

N. Tyranno said:
Link, Shulk, etc. aren't white, they're Japanese, by virtue of being created by Japanese people.

This is not how it works. At all.

Is Mario Japanese?

Deleted member 56306 · Sep 29, 2019

N. Tyranno said:
I realize that Japanese characters in a Japanese game don't necessarily make things more diverse, but I'm concerned as to why this post presumably categorizes so many of the fantasy characters as white. Link, Shulk, etc. aren't white, they're Japanese, by virtue of being created by Japanese people.

White passing then?

Spinluck · Sep 29, 2019

Tommcatt said:
I get what you are saying but I also don't. If you want to point out the lack of pocs in games in general then I agree but maybe don't do it in defense of Smash, because all it does is discourage the voices of the people who would agree with you.

Edit: it comes off as "Don't pick on the game I like!"

We should be this consistent with the industry as a whole. Smash isn't making up characters, they are pulling from the most popular Eastern franchises in the genre which are overwhelmingly White and Asian (and animal creature thingies)

People will harp on OW for not having a black female character yet which they should but completely let the rest of the industry go unchecked. At most, these franchises give us a token person of color that isn't the face of the franchise then people scratch their heads when companies use the white main star to represent the game. It's not really hard to deduce the problem here.

SteelBeast6Beets · Sep 29, 2019

Gold Arsene said:
Female Corrin is the default in Fire Emblem Warriors. I think Heroes started to favor Female Corrin as well but don't quote me on that.

Neoxon said:
From Fire Emblem Warriors onwards, Female Corrin is treated as the main one.

I do see Female!Corrin being featured more than her male counterpart in the spin-offs... With makes the case of SSBU the odd one out.

Gold Arsene · Sep 29, 2019

N. Tyranno said:
I realize that Japanese characters in a Japanese game don't necessarily make things more diverse, but I'm concerned as to why this post presumably categorizes so many of the fantasy characters as white. Link, Shulk, etc. aren't white, they're Japanese, by virtue of being created by Japanese people.

Check out this Japanese man.

Kcannon · Sep 29, 2019

Neoxon said:
Which, while appreciated, aren't the default. They aren't the main versions of the characters you see in marketing, Amiibos, or even the character select screen. And while the Gerudo have been around for years, Urbosa is one of the rare instances where Nintendo put emphasis on her. Twintelle is very clearly supposed to be black. And while Elma's case is more ambiguous, she's actually a main character.

I don't really see Sakurai getting worried about the marketing angle. He includes a character and gives them a gender option if it's possible.

Tabaxi · Sep 29, 2019

TheDinoman said:
That would be because Spring Man is the mascot for ARMS and he's already an assist trophy.

This breaks the most important rule in Smash, which is "Sakurai doesn't care about the rules."

If Nintendo/Sakurai want an Arms rep, and they think Twintelle is the most popular/marketable, they'll gladly put her in before Spring Man, even if he is the mascot.

This isn't even a Smash-only thing – fans of every genre always make up these unbreakable rules and then get surprised when the creator ignores them on a whim.

Neoxon · Sep 29, 2019

SteelBeast6Beets said:
I do see Female!Corrin being featured more than her male counterpart in the spin-offs... With makes the case of SSBU the odd one out.

Which goes into my point about Sakurai being stubborn about the weirdest things.

Software Update · Sep 29, 2019

I agree that there's little diversity in the game, but most of these characters aren't supposed to be white.

TyraZaurus · Sep 29, 2019

FluxWaveZ said:
This is not how it works. At all.

Is Mario Japanese?

I mean that's arguable

but this describes it better than I ever could: https://www.google.com/amp/s/kotaku.com/why-do-japanese-characters-look-white-5627268/amp

the presence of such hair colors on these characters doesn't really mean much. Naruto Uzumaki is blue eyed with blond hair, but he's still Japanese. It's one thing if it's Simon Belmont living in Europe or Terry Bogard froma city in America, but the worlds Shulk, Link, and Samus are from aren't part of ours. They're Japanese.

TheDinoman · Sep 29, 2019

Tabaxi said:
This breaks the most important rule in Smash, which is "Sakurai doesn't care about the rules."

If Nintendo/Sakurai want an Arms rep, and they think Twintelle is the most popular/marketable, they'll gladly put her in before Spring Man, even if he is the mascot.

Over 30 series have playable characters in Smash Bros. and they're all represented by their main characters. Sure, there's "no rules", but it's clear Sakurai wants to focus on adding main characters before anyone else.

Kcannon · Sep 29, 2019

Tabaxi said:
This breaks the most important rule in Smash, which is "Sakurai doesn't care about the rules."

If Nintendo/Sakurai want an Arms rep, and they think Twintelle is the most popular/marketable, they'll gladly put her in before Spring Man, even if he is the mascot.

This isn't even a Smash-only thing – fans of every genre always make up these unbreakable rules and then get surprised when the creator ignores them on a whim.

Sakurai is very consistent about prioritizing the poster boy of a series.

So much that not including Chrom in SSB4 was one of his biggest regrets. He didn't need to make him playable since they already had the other two Awakening poster children in the game, but he still did. That's arguably Ultimate's most controversial addition, caused by Sakurai wanting to stick to a principle.

Also, it's likely he would include Ribbon Girl alongside Spring Man since she's the other mascot of the game.

FluxWaveZ · Sep 29, 2019

N. Tyranno said:
I mean that's arguable

but this describes it better than I ever could: https://www.google.com/amp/s/kotaku.com/why-do-japanese-characters-look-white-5627268/amp

the presence of such hair colors on these characters doesn't really mean much. Naruto Uzumaki is blue eyed with blond hair, but he's still Japanese. It's one thing if it's Simon Belmont living in Europe or Terry Bogard froma city in America, but the worlds Shulk, Link, and Samus are from aren't part of ours. They're Japanese.

Shulk, Link, and Samus are not Japanese. They are very clearly based on Western ethnicities/origins. Hyrule isn't Japan. "Japanese" isn't the default for these characters when it's not explicitly defined.

Neoxon · Sep 29, 2019

Tabaxi said:
This breaks the most important rule in Smash, which is "Sakurai doesn't care about the rules."

If Nintendo/Sakurai want an Arms rep, and they think Twintelle is the most popular/marketable, they'll gladly put her in before Spring Man, even if he is the mascot.

This isn't even a Smash-only thing – fans of every genre always make up these unbreakable rules and then get surprised when the creator ignores them on a whim.

The only rules Sakurai commented on in some form are "must originate from a video game" & "can't be region-exclusive". The protagonists-first thing is something, while not officially stated, that Sakurai has stuck by for every new franchise added to Smash (sometimes to a fault, hence the roster's issues with women & people of color). His rigidness regarding this mindset is part of the problem. So as stated earlier, I agree that he should loosen up.

Shawn Carter · Sep 29, 2019

Kcannon said:
Sakurai is very consistent about prioritizing the poster boy of a series.

So much that not including Chrom in SSB4 was one of his biggest regrets. He didn't need to make him playable since they already had the other two Awakening poster children in the game, but he still did.

Also, it's likely he would include Ribbon Girl alongside Spring Man since she's the other mascot of the game.

lol the team really just throws shit at the wall at points. I have no faith in who they include or why so getting this deep into it seems pointless.

Spinluck · Sep 29, 2019

Tabaxi said:
This breaks the most important rule in Smash, which is "Sakurai doesn't care about the rules."

If Nintendo/Sakurai want an Arms rep, and they think Twintelle is the most popular/marketable, they'll gladly put her in before Spring Man, even if he is the mascot.

This isn't even a Smash-only thing – fans of every genre always make up these unbreakable rules and then get surprised when the creator ignores them on a whim.

I think Twintelle should've been the face of Arms.

CyberWolfBia · Sep 29, 2019

Gold Arsene said:
I mean here's a chart someone in the Smash thread made of some speculated potential characters.

It's an unfortunate problem in the industry that prominent main characters(aka the ones likely to get in Smash) aren't often PoC. Like the only one that I could think of to add to this list would be Shantae.

I certainly didn't mean any harm when doing this. Of course I noticed the result and the lack of PoC when I got everything done, but I guess its just the consequences of constant brought names. :\

and I certainly would love more characters like Impa and Urbosa in Smash indeed, but this was made in another context; being not yet represented franchises in Smash from various companies. Nintendo own's catalogue of characters should be able to fix this issue alone.

Kyzer · Sep 29, 2019

Kinda weird to lump in "white-passing" characters as white...

Gold Arsene · Sep 29, 2019

CyberWolfJV said:
I certainly didn't mean no harm when doing this. Of course I noticed the result and the lack of PoC when I got everything done, but I guess its just the consequences of constant brought names. :\

and I certainly would love more characters like Impa and Urbosa in Smash indeed, but this was made in another context; being not yet represented franchises in Smash from various companies. Nintendo own's catalogue of characters should be able to fix this issue alone.

Oh I wasn't trying to shame you, sorry if you took it that way. I want several characters on there myself. It was more just pointing out the lack of PoC in general in regards to gaming characters likely to get in Smash. Like I said the only third party on I can think of is Shantae.

First party characters could help but I'm not expecting many of those t be DLC besides a couple.

TyraZaurus · Sep 29, 2019

FluxWaveZ said:
Shulk, Link, and Samus are not Japanese. They are very clearly based on Western ethnicities/origins. Hyrule isn't Japan.

Hyrule is a fantasy world, and the presence of groups like the Sheikah in Hyrule proper kind of undermine the notion that it's "based on Western origins". Hyrule also has people of varying skin colors throughout the setting in BOTW.

It's a fantasy land, and the presence of European elements in it are because the setting derives heavily from general fantasy tropes. But the majority of its audience in its country of creation are going to see Link as being Japanese like them, and that's not insignificant.

Same goes for Samus and Shulk.

SteelBeast6Beets · Sep 29, 2019

Neoxon said:
Which goes into my point about Sakurai being stubborn about the weirdest things.

I can only wonder why.

NotLiquid · Sep 29, 2019

Donalp15 said:
The model for a playable character is much more detailed than an assist trophy, so I think saying 'update a bit' is downplaying the work needed slightly. I'm not sure Impa should replaced Shiek, but adding her alongside as an echo would mean its not just the same three characters we've had since melee.

Like I said, you can put Smash 4 Dark Samus side to side with regular Samus, and the only discernible visual difference you're going to get is a lower-res textures. In terms of movements and animations she was completely rigged to fit into almost all of Samus' animations (sans some moves like Charge Shot). The glow-up she got going into Ultimate is really not that different from the glow-ups most characters got, the new textures and lighting engine alone would probably mean updating her to be an Echo incredibly easy.

Deleted member 56306 · Sep 29, 2019

Spinluck said:
We should be this consistent with the industry as a whole. Smash isn't making up characters, they are pulling from the most popular Eastern franchises in the genre which are overwhelmingly White and Asian.

People will harp on OW for not having a black female character yet which they should buy completely let the rest of the industry go unchecked. At most, these franchises give us a token person of color that isn't the face of the franchise then people scratch their heads when companies use the white main star to represent the game. It's not really hard to deduce the problem here.

People are gonna harp on the things they care for first and foremost though. It's the nature of well, everything. I agree that people should be more consistent but it seems at the moment people are hesitant to even add "tokens" as you say - and I think they might be a bigger problem here tbh. There is always some excuse to not have a POC in a game in a leading role - or in this case just on the damn roster (the market, history, main characters/etc). I'm not saying that we should get like one black person in everything and call it a day. I'm not saying that this shouldn't be talked about more - in fact I want there to be tons of black people in games, I want there to be tons of brown people in games and I want them to be reflective of the vast personalities and character types that exist in the world over. (I also want people to stop giving Japanese Devs a pass on this - especially Nintendo, there is no good reason they can't make a dark skinned MC)

I don't see how what you are doing helps the case at all. People demanding more representation shouldn't be discouraged or mocked on account of not demanding it of the whole industry, each and every time they complain. That's just counterproductive.

CyberWolfBia · Sep 29, 2019

Gold Arsene said:
Oh I wasn't trying to shame you, sorry if you took it that way. I want several characters on there myself. It was more just pointing out the lack of PoC in general in regards to gaming characters likely to get in Smash. Like I said the only third party on I can think of is Shantae.

First party characters could help but I'm not expecting many of those t be DLC besides a couple.

no problem! and yeah, I personally think they're done with Nintendo owned characters/franchises for the rest of Ultimate, but there's always a little bit of hope for everyone until DLC is truly completed.

Tabaxi · Sep 29, 2019

TheDinoman said:
Over 30 series have playable characters in Smash Bros. and they're all represented by their main characters. Sure, there's "no rules", but it's clear Sakurai wants to focus on adding main characters before anyone else.

That's a preference, and one that makes sense 99% of the time. But, considering the amount of fan created rules Sakurai has broken over the years, it's absolutely conceivable he'd make a different choice for Arms, where Twintelle is clearly the more popular, marketable and identifiable of the two. There's no other franchise in Smash where something like that would apply.

I'm not saying it will happen, and I wouldn't be surprised if Spring Man did get the pick over her, but the fact that, on Era , any discussion of Twintelle gets automatically shut down by the entirely fan-made unbreakable mascot rule is absurd.

Kcannon · Sep 29, 2019

Spinluck said:
I think Twintelle should've been the face of Arms.

She probably will never be. The vast majority of ARMS's characters have those distinct spring-like arms, which is something only her and Mechanica don't have.

Min Min would probably become this before her anyway. I believe she won the popularity tournament or whatever.

killertofu · Sep 29, 2019

N. Tyranno said:
I mean that's arguable

but this describes it better than I ever could: https://www.google.com/amp/s/kotaku.com/why-do-japanese-characters-look-white-5627268/amp

the presence of such hair colors on these characters doesn't really mean much. Naruto Uzumaki is blue eyed with blond hair, but he's still Japanese. It's one thing if it's Simon Belmont living in Europe or Terry Bogard froma city in America, but the worlds Shulk, Link, and Samus are from aren't part of ours. They're Japanese.

This is such a bad take lmao.

Deleted member 56306 · Sep 29, 2019

Kyzer said:
Kinda weird to lump in "white-passing" characters as white...

It's the nature of talking about characters created in Japan that don't exist in a real world. They are effectively white.

Gold Arsene · Sep 29, 2019

N. Tyranno said:
Hyrule is a fantasy world, and the presence of groups like the Sheikah in Hyrule proper kind of undermine the notion that it's "based on Western origins". Hyrule also has people of varying skin colors throughout the setting in BOTW.

It's a fantasy land, and the presence of European elements in it are because the setting derives heavily from general fantasy tropes. But the majority of its audience in its country of creation are going to see Link as being Japanese like them, and that's not insignificant.

Same goes for Samus and Shulk.

This logic falls apart when the setting has a blatant Japanese analogue like the Shiekah, Wutai, Hoshido, etc. Which the main characters are not a part of.

killertofu · Sep 29, 2019

N. Tyranno said:
Hyrule is a fantasy world, and the presence of groups like the Sheikah in Hyrule proper kind of undermine the notion that it's "based on Western origins". Hyrule also has people of varying skin colors throughout the setting in BOTW.

It's a fantasy land, and the presence of European elements in it are because the setting derives heavily from general fantasy tropes. But the majority of its audience in its country of creation are going to see Link as being Japanese like them, and that's not insignificant.

Same goes for Samus and Shulk.

I was talking to my fiancé who is white and a big Zelda fan that I never got into Zelda as much as a kid because of how western and white the characters looked. I didn't connect with them. I'm not Japanese but I'm still Asian and I tended to lean toward more Asian characters.

This is just my anecdotal experience thoufh

NSESN · Sep 29, 2019

Neoxon said:
From Fire Emblem Warriors onwards, Female Corrin is treated as the main one.

She is only treated as the main one in FEW, a game that isnt even from IS or Nintendo, in all other games they have equal treatment
In fact in heroes he comes first

Korigama · Sep 29, 2019

Neoxon said:
From Fire Emblem Warriors onwards, Female Corrin is treated as the main one.

And yet for some reason people keep insisting on he/him in this thread in spite of Male Corrin being nowhere near as popular anyway (idle nitpicking when both are still ultimately official I know, but I'm bored between tourney stream breaks).

LinkStrikesBack · Sep 29, 2019

Tabaxi said:
That's a preference, and one that makes senses 99% of the time. But, considering the amount of fan created rules Sakurai has broken over the years, it's absolutely conceivable he'd make a different choice for Arms, where Twintelle is clearly the more popular, marketable and identifiable of the two. There's no other franchise in Smash where something like that would apply.

I'm not saying it will happen, and I wouldn't be surprised if Spring Man did get the pick over her, but the fact that, one Era , any discussion of Twintelle gets automatically shut down by the entirely fan-made unbreakable mascot rule is absurd.

I mean, even if you want to make the popularity argument, it still wouldn't be twintelle. Min-min won the arms popularity competition, not her.

Ryce · Sep 29, 2019

NotLiquid said:
Like I said, you can put Smash 4 Dark Samus side to side with regular Samus, and the only discernible visual difference you're going to get is a lower-res textures. In terms of movements and animations she was completely rigged to fit into almost all of Samus' animations (sans some moves like Charge Shot). The glow-up she got going into Ultimate is really not that different from the glow-ups most characters got, the new textures and lighting engine alone would probably mean updating her to be an Echo incredibly easy.

I'm not sure if I can link to a particular site that houses model resources, but Ultimate's Dark Samus was 100% created from scratch. It's not a "glow-up" -- there's literally no shared geometry or art between the Smash 4 and Ultimate Dark Samus models. There's a lot of geometric overlap between the playable Smash 4 and Ultimate models (regular Samus, for example), but that's actually not the case at all for Dark Samus.

TooBusyLookinGud · Sep 29, 2019

BigBlue said:
What the hell is wrong with you....

His life sucks more than likely - likes to try and make others feel bad because he is miserable. I have had my share of run-ins with these types and that's usually the reason.

TyraZaurus · Sep 29, 2019

Gold Arsene said:
This logic falls apart when the setting has a blatant Japanese analogue like the Shiekah, Wutai, Hoshido, etc. Which the main characters are not a part of.

The Sheikah have been inconsistently portrayed as to whether or not they are merely a group of reclusive Hylians or another ethnic group entirely throughout the series, with BOTW being the one that presents the strongest case for the latter. Nevertheless, their being more strongly Japanese coded doesn't make those other characters white, for all the same reasons as the ones given in that Kotaku article I linked.

NotLiquid · Sep 29, 2019

Ryce said:
I'm not sure if I can link to a particular site that houses model resources, but Ultimate's Dark Samus was 100% created from scratch. It's not a "glow-up" -- there's literally no shared geometry or art between the Smash 4 and Ultimate Dark Samus models.

I haven't checked Ultimate's models in a hot minute, but last I remember this was the case for a lot of models. Sakurai mentioned it in several interviews iirc that almost nothing was reused, Ryu's model in Ultimate for instance was largely remade from scratch as well, in fact one of the reasons the old Ken leak was proven as true was because it matched very non-widespread fact that Ryu's polycount (and a good deal of Smash Ultimate models) had been lowered going into Ultimate, so Dark Samus not sharing much with the Smash 4 model wouldn't be that surprising. Point being they still had a completely ready reference model to work off of that was still ultimately done via convenience, which wouldn't apply to characters like Impa.

Neoxon · Sep 29, 2019

LinkStrikesBack said:
I mean, even if you want to make the popularity argument, it still wouldn't be twintelle. Min-min won the arms popularity competition, not her.

Party Crashes are basically ARMS's Splatfest, which are equal parts popularity & skill. To use Splatoon 2 as an example, Marina is clearly the more popular OtH member. But said popularity was to her detriment, as she lost most of the Splatfests. It was to the point where Nintendo restructured how Splatfests work.

KtotheRoc · Sep 29, 2019

Donalp15 said:
Dark Samus only appears in two games and a cameo, so that is not much more. SS is also the most recent version of young Impa, so they would probably consider her first before looking to older versions. I doubt the spirit choice really matters also, especially since the Impa spirit was used to guard Zelda in the OoT section of World of Light.

SS is 8 years old at this point, and not particularly well regarded. The Metroid Prime games are certainly more well regarded. Fairly or not, if they ever add Impa, I'd think OoT Impa would be the clear stand-out.

J_b · Sep 29, 2019

Forcing Diversity for the sake of...diversity is never a good thing. The reality is, the smash roster is already pretty diverse, from Mice that can talk, to Gods, and Mute Elves to Space Animals and Bounty Hunters. Sure, adding Shante would be cool, and im not against that but I'm not really sure how you could look at a game with what, almost 80 characters and complain about diversity

Tabaxi · Sep 29, 2019

LinkStrikesBack said:
I mean, even if you want to make the popularity argument, it still wouldn't be twintelle. Min-min won the arms popularity competition, not her.

She won what was basically the Arms Splatfest. That's not indicative of absolute popularity at all.

Deleted member 23212 · Sep 29, 2019

udivision said:
Only two characters were designed outside of Japan. That's part of it.
Banjo and K Rool.

Diddy Kong and Dark Samus too.

Odeko · Sep 29, 2019

Spinluck said:
Just Google'd "2019 video game releases"

"OMG guys, wher r da colord ppl n SmAsh??

I don't understand, the last four characters you posted are Chinese, Brazilian, Japanese, and Japanese.

I mean I guess I appreciate not cherry picking the data?

Linde · Sep 29, 2019

lol is OP counting all the fire emblem characters as white?
basically anyone with light skin = white?

aisback · Sep 29, 2019

As a PoC I don't have a problem with it.

That being said I wouldn't object to have more diversity

Sawyer · Sep 29, 2019

Smash doesn't have a roster like Street Fighter or Tekken that can just make up whoever they want.
Smash mostly invites main characters from other games. So the problem is the industry at large.

Jaded Alyx · Sep 29, 2019

Uncle at Nintendo said:
Who is the most famous WoC in video games?

... This is an interesting question.

Odeko · Sep 29, 2019

Uncle at Nintendo said:
Who is the most famous WoC in video games?

Chun-Li?

Super Smash Bros Ultimate has 19 white male characters (6 of which are blue eyed / blonde hair), and 0 women of color

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