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Blade24070

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,003
But for some of us, it would be great to feel somewhat represented in our favorite games.

See, this is the wrong way to go about it as I feel you're already setting up the product to fail. How about instead of calling for representation in Smash Brothers, of all series/games, you try to find and support games that represent you to begin with?

I'm actually not sure why this obsession with diversity as related to Smash Brothers exists. There are many other fighting game series with racial diversity, and Smash is a series where MANY fighters don't even have a racial identity as they're not human.
 
Mar 23, 2018
2,654
Isn't this more on most of japanese main character design rather than, well, Sakurai/whoever picks the characters? They gotta pick popular characters and the majority of popular main characters out there are white and, probably, male, too. Like, imagine if they give Sakurai the choice of getting one Devil May Cry character. Do you really think it would be more "hype" to add Lucia instead of Dante for the sake of diversity? Personally, I don't see that. Dhalsim instead of Ryu/Ken?

It isn't like other fighting games like Tekken or SF, where they can just create new original characters and make them very different from each other. When you play Smash, you are getting a roster with the most popular characters they could get.

As for my diversity picks, I'd say Elma(XCX) is the front runner. I'd like to see Rodin, from Bayo, but Jeanne would have priority because of recognizability. Then there's Chun-Li, who is not at the front because a third third party character from the same franchise would be... quite the surprise; Akuma, Guile or even Sakura could be up there, too. Kasumi, from Dead or Alive as a Koei Tecmo pick, even though they'd probably pick Ryu(Ninja Gaiden) and with good reason, too. If there's a Mortal Kombat character, why would someone pick Kitana over Scorpion or Sub-Zero?
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,789
It also has 0 fighters with physical disability, and I believe canonically there's none over the age of 30. What does this mean? Probably a whole lot of nothing about the game itself but perhaps a wider conversation about games.
 

CSMITHY84

Member
Oct 27, 2017
327
UK
User Banned (1 Week) Dismissing concerns about representation and diversity
Why is this even a thing? I hate the world we live in at the moment, Everyones offended by something or everythings not right how they want it!! Just play the damn video game and enjoy it how it is!!
 

TimeFire

Avenger
Nov 26, 2017
9,625
Brazil
Why is this even a thing? I hate the world we live in at the moment, Everyones offended by something or everythings not right how they want it!! Just play the damn video game and enjoy it how it is!!

There's a single person offended on the thread and it's you, dude. We're just talking. It would be cool to have more black/girl characters.
 

cmChimera

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,450
What if they add different skin color options for these existing characters? Wanna be a black Cloud? Go for it. Brown Samus? Sure.
No. I want actual POC.

Nintendo could add Twintelle, Urbosa, and Elma for a significant step forward. The counter-argument of "they're not in because of reason X" is a nonsense argument. They're Nintendo's characters in a Nintendo game. They can put in whoever they want.
 

Neoxon

Spotlighting Black Excellence - Diversity Analyst
Member
Oct 25, 2017
85,382
Houston, TX
True, most of the blame does fall on the state of the industry when it comes to representation (especially in Japan). But a good chunk of the blame also falls on Sakurai (& Nintendo, since they have a bigger hand in DLC character selection). While options are indeed limited, options do exist (Twintelle, Elma, Urbosa, etc.). And it's not just women of color that's the problem, it's for women as a whole (at least women by default). As of now, Smash Ultimate has the third-worst female fighter ratio of any modern fighting game, ahead of only MvCI & DBFZ. And DLC has done nothing to help rectify this. Again, while the industry as a whole is mostly to blame, Sakurai & Nintendo could do more on their end to help alleviate the concerns. As others have brought up, the game's (or rather, Sakurai's) focus on protagonists & mascots is part of the problem. It makes perfect sense to go for this mentality for a game on Smash, at least on paper. But the problem is that it magnifies a problem that exists in the industry. To be honest, this is part of the reason why I'm not as involved in DLC speculation as I used to be, as the direction Sakurai & Nintendo are taking the DLC is doing next to nothing for fixing the existing problems of the roster.

In short, Nintendo has slowly been getting better when it comes to representation in their other games. And while the industry as a whole has a long way to go, I do believe that Sakurai needs to loosen up a bit when it comes to his poster child first mentality. Basically, representation matters.
 
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Gold Arsene

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
30,757
Who do you propose they add?

I'm being honest because outside Urbosa, Marina and Twintelle(who would be unlikely to get in before Springman) I'm drawing a blank.

Also screw the Mr. Game & Watch joke, it wasn't funny the first time and it's only getting worse.
 

AlecKoKuTan

Member
Oct 29, 2017
2,256
Irvine, CA
I'm bias, cause I totally give smash a pass on this topic. Honestly, seeing Twintelle, Elma, or Shantae might send me over the moon but I doubt it will happen. Honestly, thank god for games like overwatch-- but some Japanese fighters have been making strides, I think tekken 7 did the best recently
 

Voke

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
1,336
what black characters do they have to choose from? not many, and they for sure aren't popular cause I'm black and I can't even list them. sorry era but im gonna go with popularity > diversity in smash bros. and as it is right now theres way more white characters to choose from, might sound bad but thats just reality
 

NeonZ

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 28, 2017
9,377
I mean yes,but Japanese characters are so often white passing which characters would you say even have Asian features?

Ryu? Ken also is mixed and dyes his hair blonde, which is why he has black/brown eyebrows (he also mostly has black/brown eyes, outside of Street Fighter 4 and Smash). Pokemon Trainer is also technically Japanese, although that falls into the whole "cartoonish design without noticeable racial features".
 

Chalphy

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,561
Not a woman, but if they added Mr. Sandman from Punch-Out, they basically would have that franchise perfectly repped for life.
 

Neoxon

Spotlighting Black Excellence - Diversity Analyst
Member
Oct 25, 2017
85,382
Houston, TX
Yeah, I'm not sure why people are always targeting SSB when the problem obviously lies elsewhere.

SSB just picks from the most known (mostly Japanese) IPs in gaming and the real problem is the lack of representation in Japanese video games over the last 35 years period. Representation got a tad better this decade but this small effect won't be seen until the next few SSB installments.
Because while you're right in the industry being the bigger problem, there are things that Sakurai can do on his end to help alleviate the situation somewhat (you can read my post in full a few posts above this one, as I'm not a huge fan of repeating myself). Likewise, Smash Ultimate is the highest selling fighting game of all time, so it should be held at a somewhat-higher standard. And even with just women, Smash Ultimate lags behind most of the competition. It's a great game with a great roster, but it can & should do better when it comes to women & people of color.

Basically, options are limited, yes. But options do exists, so Sakurai & Nintendo should make use of them.
 

Gold Arsene

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
30,757
I mean here's a chart someone in the Smash thread made of some speculated potential characters.
SMASH-Character-Speculation-Sep-2019.png


It's an unfortunate problem in the industry that prominent main characters(aka the ones likely to get in Smash) aren't often PoC. Like the only one that I could think of to add to this list would be Shantae.
 

Spinluck

▲ Legend ▲
Avenger
Oct 26, 2017
28,480
Chicago
I think it's hilarious we see this as just a Smash problem.

The newest main character in your latest IP is white. Death Standing? White af, Control and Horizon? White MC. Do the math and let's stop being willfully ignorant and demand more d-league character choices from Smash without blaming the industry for giving us the same protags a majority of the time.

Japan needs a push.
 

battleborn27

Banned
Oct 6, 2018
693
Asian characters aren't white

And I'd rather there not being black characters at all than having offensive ones like in Street Fighter
 

Neoxon

Spotlighting Black Excellence - Diversity Analyst
Member
Oct 25, 2017
85,382
Houston, TX
How many black male characters does Smash have?
By default, (debatably) one in the form of Ganondorf. In terms of alternate costumes, there are also Inkling & Villager.

I think it's hilarious we see this as just a Smash problem.
Obviously it's not just Smash that's the primary problem, but rather the industry as a whole (as the OP makes this clear in later posts). But as the biggest fighting game ever, steps should be taken to at least address the current problems of the roster (that being a lack of women & a lack of people of color). Again, I don't like repeating myself, so just refer to the previous post I made.
 

Mugman

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,369
I think it's sort of unfair to completely not count the Villager, Inkling and Pokemon Trainer skins. I absolutely agree that they aren't enough, especially when they aren't the default option on the character select screen, but it tells me someone on the team is aware of the issue.

Twintelle, Elma and Urbosa definitely should've been in the game though, and it's just another reason I've grown to somewhat resent the third party focus.
 

Neoxon

Spotlighting Black Excellence - Diversity Analyst
Member
Oct 25, 2017
85,382
Houston, TX
I think it's sort of unfair to completely not count the Villager, Inkling and Pokemon Trainer skins. I absolutely agree that they aren't enough, especially when they aren't the default option on the character select screen, but it tells me someone on the team is aware of the issue.

Twintelle, Elma and Urbosa definitely should've been in the game though, and it's just another reason I've grown to somewhat resent the third party focus.
They definitely deserve credit for including those variants. But as you said, they aren't the default. It's basically like Injustice 2's Premier Skins. They're nice, but they're just costumes (or costumes with unique dialogue & occasionally edited supers) that are basically a band-aid for the existing problem.

Likewise, there are still legitimate concerns regarding racism in Smash that have yet to be addressed. By that, I mean the racist spirits found in World of Light.
www.resetera.com

Racist Stereotypes in Smash Bros. Ultimates Spirits Mode

I had made a thread about the lack of representation in Smash, but over the past weeks, I've seen some incredibly... suspect (quite frankly, just racist) things in the games spirits mode via twitter/images online that I feel warranted its own thread. It's one thing to have little to no diversity...
 

FluxWaveZ

Persona Central
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
10,890
Asian characters aren't white

And I'd rather there not being black characters at all than having offensive ones like in Street Fighter
Street Fighter does more for diversity than Smash represents, even with it just having a few examples in SFV. It has characters like Menat, Laura, Rashid, Birdie, and Balrog (who isn't really offensive now).
 

Neoxon

Spotlighting Black Excellence - Diversity Analyst
Member
Oct 25, 2017
85,382
Houston, TX
Street Fighter does more for diversity than Smash represents, even with it just having a few examples in SFV. It has characters like Menat, Laura, Rashid, Birdie, and Balrog (who isn't really offensive now).
Capcom has gotten better when it comes to representation in recent years, but they still have a ways to go.
www.resetera.com

Street Fighter has so much untapped potential with regards to being progressive with its female fighters & black/brown characters

As I mentioned in a previous thread, Street Fighter V alone has quite a bit of people of color in its current roster, especially compared to most other fighting games. Plus, from the perspective of black/brown characters, Capcom has quite a few both in SFV & in the vault. Hell, we even have a...

But at the very least, they have put in some effort towards improving, which I can respect.
 

Mandos

Member
Nov 27, 2017
30,991
I mean here's a chart someone in the Smash thread made of some speculated potential characters.
SMASH-Character-Speculation-Sep-2019.png


It's an unfortunate problem in the industry that prominent main characters(aka the ones likely to get in Smash) aren't often PoC. Like the only one that I could think of to add to this list would be Shantae.
Shantae is middle eastern which is still classified as white FYI
 

FluxWaveZ

Persona Central
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
10,890
Asian characters aren't white

And I'd rather there not being black characters at all than having offensive ones like in Street Fighter
Which characters are Asian? You mean Shulk and Ness?
Capcom has gotten better when it comes to representation in recent years, but they still have a ways to go.
www.resetera.com

Street Fighter has so much untapped potential with regards to being progressive with its female fighters & black/brown characters

As I mentioned in a previous thread, Street Fighter V alone has quite a bit of people of color in its current roster, especially compared to most other fighting games. Plus, from the perspective of black/brown characters, Capcom has quite a few both in SFV & in the vault. Hell, we even have a...

But at the very least, they have put in some effort towards improving, which I can respect.
For sure, I'm really just comparing SFV to Smash here, where SFV at least has something that can be pointed to. It's still not great, though.
 
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¡ B 0 0 P !

Banned
Apr 4, 2019
2,915
Greater Toronto Area
I understand the calls for diversity.

But honestly every time people make this thread about the lack of people of color and women and I see the list of people that should be in it, it just becomes more obvious why they aren't.

I'll give you on the Black characters part. Sadly their aren't a lot of famous black characters. The ones that do exit seem either seem unlikely (CJ from GTA) or would not get in over the mascot of their series (Jax from MK & Doomfist/Lucio from OW).

But women characters? That's bull. Loads of iconic female characters exist that would be great in Smash. Lara Croft, Tracer, Chel, Jill Valentine, Chun-Li, Dixie Kong, Ms. Pac-Man, etc.
 

ClickyCal'

Member
Oct 25, 2017
59,687
Twintelle, Elma and Urbosa definitely should've been in the game though, and it's just another reason I've grown to somewhat resent the third party focus.
None of those three would have gotten in as dlc anyway, and tbh I don't think twintelle or urbosa would regardless. Neither are main characters and neither are overwhelmingly popular. Elma should have been smash 4 dlc though.
 

FluxWaveZ

Persona Central
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
10,890
Shantae is middle eastern which is still classified as white FYI
People like to talk a lot about technicalities and pedantics in these threads, but what ultimately matters here is how a character looks. How someone can feel like they're represented in some way in the game instead of alienated. It's the point of diversity.
 
OP
OP

BigBlue

Alt-Account
Banned
Jun 6, 2019
203
See, this is the wrong way to go about it as I feel you're already setting up the product to fail. How about instead of calling for representation in Smash Brothers, of all series/games, you try to find and support games that represent you to begin with?

I'm actually not sure why this obsession with diversity as related to Smash Brothers exists. There are many other fighting game series with racial diversity, and Smash is a series where MANY fighters don't even have a racial identity as they're not human.
I play many games with racial and ethnic diversity. However I really like JRPGs as well as Nintendos offering. I wont stop playing them simply because there is norepresentation, but that doesnt mean I cant want it.

Also, yes Smash Bros has lots of non-human characters, but of the humanoid characters in the game (which is a large percentage still) all of them are white / light skin with the exception of Little Mac.
 
OP
OP

BigBlue

Alt-Account
Banned
Jun 6, 2019
203
Why is this even a thing? I hate the world we live in at the moment, Everyones offended by something or everythings not right how they want it!! Just play the damn video game and enjoy it how it is!!
I'm not in anyways offended. Am I not allowed to ask for a game I love to have some fighters that look like me? It appears you are more outraged about the people asking for diversity than the ones asking...
 

Gold Arsene

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
30,757
Which characters are Asian? You mean Shulk and Ness?

For sure, I'm really just comparing SFV to Smash here, where SFV at least has something that can be pointed to. It's still not great, though.
Joker and Ryu are Japanese. Ken is half Japanese. Corrin is from a fantasy equivalent of Japan so he might count. Those are the ones I know anyway.
 

Kewlmyc

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
26,723
I don't really blame the game honestly. It a history of Nintendo characters and old gaming franchises. There's not a lot of PoCs to choose from that would make sense in Smash.

Twintelle could work, but her being picked over Spring Man, while he's an assist trophy would be breaking every Smash roster "rule" we've seen so far. Again, I'm not against it, but it's unlikely. Same with Elma over Rex, who got made into a costume. And while Urbosa would be neat, I feel Impa would be a better pick and also be a PoC (I think she is?).

I can't think of any third party PoCs that would make sense being put in Smash. Maybe one of the assassins from Assassin's Creed? Even then, if Ubisoft got a rep, it would most likely be Rayman.

I'm honestly just glad that they gave Villager, Pkmn trainer, Dark Pit, and Inkling dark skin alts. I'm content with that for now.
 

reddragon220

Member
Sep 7, 2019
128
I think it's hilarious we see this as just a Smash problem.

Absolutely. Smash Ultimate's roster is a reflection of both the greater gaming industry and to a lesser degree Japan's view of cultural diversity. It would be great for the larger gaming industry, along with film and music, to take a more proactive and diverse view of building characters. However you cannot just point at the end result and demand change there. You have to work to build diversity from the ground up: hiring diverse people to work on these projects; creating diverse protagonists; and creating compelling stories that have that diversity tactfully included.

That last bit is the hardest to do - usually things get really hamfisted. Miles Morales (of Spiderman) is a great example of a character who is diverse, but more importantly has a compelling character backstory beyond just being a 'latino/black reskin of spider-man'. I honestly wish we'd get more compelling original characters rather than spin-offs/gender swaps, but baby steps at first. :)
 
OP
OP

BigBlue

Alt-Account
Banned
Jun 6, 2019
203
Thank you everyone for your replies. It is true that this problem is more of an industry problem rather than a Smash problem. It's just that Smash is probably my favorite franchise of all time, and every new game I wait for Nintendo to add a character that has brown/black skin.

Someone like Twinille, Shantae, Elma would be great and go a long way
 
May 5, 2018
7,353
Only two characters were designed outside of Japan. That's part of it.
Banjo and K Rool.
There's also Diddy Kong for Rare characters. Also Dark Samus was created by American studio Retro Studios and Little Mac's design is based on the Wii Punch-Out design, developed by Canadian studio Next Level Games. Also Donkey Kong's design has always been based on the DKC series.
 

mopinks

Member
Oct 27, 2017
30,577
Snake is also suppose to be half-Japanese, I think, but his whole situation is a little confusing
 

Rigalo

Banned
Nov 9, 2017
64
I don't think the "only the most iconic characters get into smash and there is a lack of iconic poc characters in general" argument has much merit here because there are several characters like Pichu, half of the fire emblem roster, dark pit, dark samus, etc. that really aren't that much more relevant than Twintelle or some of the other suggestions being thrown around in this thread.
 

blacktout

Member
Jan 16, 2018
1,209
That is how I always answer these threads.

Read this list of black characters on Wikipedia and tell me how many make any sense being in Smash.

One thing that's notable in this list is that it contains a number of black characters from major franchises that happen to contain large, diverse casts of playable characters (Lucio, Jax, Twintelle), but none of these characters are likely to be included in the future, because they're not the "face" of their franchise. So that sort of shows you how marketing decisions are playing a role here too.

I was really only looking at fighters that are meant to be humans, not fighters that are meant to be either things (like squids or gorillas)

This seems like a strange choice, given that a) the Inklings are very clearly humanoid in a way that most of the other non-human fighters aren't and b) many of the characters that you're presumably counting as human (Peach/Daisy, Cloud, Hero, Zelda, Samus, Pokemon Trainer, and on and on) come from other worlds/realities and probably aren't strictly "human" either.

Obviously a few non-white skins for Inkling aren't sufficient to make the roster diverse, but I think by excluding them from consideration you're papering over the fact that Nintendo's newer franchises (Splatoon, ARMS) are doing a better job on the representation front.