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rochellepaws

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,451
Ireland
It was divisive even back then given how high the bar was set after 64.

I think Jeff sort of answered why it reviewed so well, reviews were much more separated into categories back then with the final score as a sort of tally rather than representing how the reviewer felt overall. If a game looked good, sounded good, wasn't too short, had an appropriate difficulty and no notable glitches it would probably get a very high score.
 

Kcannon

Member
Oct 30, 2017
5,661
the mario game with the excessive metacritic score is odyssey, sitting at 97. It's a good game but it's not one of the greatest games ever made. This is the inherent problem with metacritic scores in general though.

user score for odyssey is more on point at 8.9. Probably sunshine should be around the same mark, but I seem to enjoy it way more than much of this community

User scores are useless since review bombing can skew things and is more present in recent games.

Plus, Galaxy is around the same mark too.
 

Stoney Mason

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,918
People place too much stock in Metacritic (And rottentomates) scores anyway. Especially in a day and age where you have access to more critical opinions about games. Sunshine probably does have too high a metacritic score. But the discussion revolving around a number is kinda boring anyway. It's a simply a snapshot of a select critical opinion at a specific point and time. While that's valuable as a reference tool in some way I guess, its not nearly as useful as most people think.
 

Alienhated

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,527
Expected the Belda argument a little earlier not gonna lie.
I believe it's true. I'm not saying that all Mario and Zelda games are overrated trash or something like that because they're usually great games, just that they're usually series that never receive fair, down-to-earth criticism when they come out, especially when a clearly sub-par entry gets released.

Does Link's Awakening not count because it remake of Handheld Title? 87

New Super Mario Bros. U: 84

New Super Mario Bros. Wii: 87

Like i said, i'm talking about mainline home console 3d series. The portable ones don't count because on the other hand western critics have a clear bias against dedicated handheld games.
I'm not saying all Nintendo games gets a favourable treatmant at all.
 

Siggy-P

Avenger
Mar 18, 2018
11,865
If it came out today it would get 10/10's and constant uncritical praise for a single week, maybe two.

Then after that would come the tidal wave of "Let's talk about why Sunshine is bad, and that's okay" articles from the same publications and writers.
 

Finale Fireworker

Love each other or die trying.
Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,710
United States
So, first, and foremost, I like Sunshine a lot. I don't think it's a bad game even if I think it's the weakest of the 3D Marios.

But we see these high scores for a few reasons (and remember to keep the world of 2002 in mind here):
1) There no other game like 3D Mario on the market. Not even close.
2) The only other 3D Mario was Super Mario 64. While the Nintendo 64 saw other platforms like DK and BK, this is the first one on a new platform. The water effects and movement system are very novel and unlike anything seen before (or after, for that matter).
3) Based on precedent set by the Nintendo 64, this was the only Mario platformer we were going to get. If it wasn't good, you'd either learn to love it or have nothing.

So Super Mario Sunshine is the kind of game that was totally unique, exceptionally rare, and was the only one we were going to get. It's a game that people wanted to like even if it wasn't as good as its predecessor. For many years, there was Super Mario 64 and Super Mario Sunshine and that was it. There were no other comparable game to choose from, so you learned to squeeze blood from the stone.

When Galaxy 1+2 came out, and eventually Odyssey, the mistakes and shortcomings of Sunshine were much more apparent. We have more 3D platformers now. We have more Mario now. You no longer have to make the best of what you have because you have Galaxy, Galaxy 2, and Odyssey to choose from in addition to SM64 and Sunshine. In a world where only 64 and Sunshine existed, Sunshine was second best. That was pretty great. In a world where all its followups also exist, yeah, it's not so great anymore. But people will always have a softspot from when they learned to love what they had.
 

Shepherd

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,040
It's hard to judge scores of older games. They are a product of their time.

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MouldyK

Prophet of Truth
Banned
Nov 1, 2017
10,118
Like i said, i'm talking about mainline home console 3d series. The portable ones don't count because on the other hand western critics have a clear bias against dedicated handheld games.
I'm not saying all Nintendo games gets a favourable treatmant at all.

You never mentioned 3D before, just Mainline Home Console, hence why I put in the NSMB Titles, which have never cracked 90 anywhere tbh.
 

Dyle

One Winged Slayer
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
29,903
There were few platformers as good as it in 2002 and a lot of its issues were much more common than they are today so players and reviewers had higher tolerances. When talking about old content people have a tendency to exaggerate and talk about it as either the greatest thing ever or the worst thing ever with little room in between which differs significantly from how that content is perceived at its time of release. No one thought it was perfect at the time but it was an strong game for its time and is mostly still good today.

It's never useful to take video game review scores as particularly representative of anything as they are so arbitrary and the criteria for making them change so much over time that it's more or less impossible to use them as any kind of worthwhile metric. What gets a 92 now is completely different than what got a 92 then. The only way to get a good sense of the perception is to dig into what people actually said about the title
 

Alienhated

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,527
You never mentioned 3D before, just Mainline Home Console, hence why I put in the NSMB Titles, which have never cracked 90 anywhere tbh.
Well sorry then, that's what i was talking about. The Mario Sunshines, The Wind Wakers, The Skyward Swords, etc
The NSMB Wii and Wii U games are great and unjustly treated by critics and gamers.
 

dimb

Member
Oct 25, 2017
737
There hadn't been a new Super Mario game for six years when Sunshine came out, so yes, the discourse was going to be very different. Video game reviews, especially then, were often treated as product review and not "discourse" to begin with so there shouldn't be an expectation for something like metacritic to reflect how a game was actually received. People weren't buying Game Informer or whatever to read hot Mario Sunshine takes they wanted information.
 

YolkFolk

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
5,212
The North, England
Always makes me laugh when you seemingly get quite a few people saying 'best 3D Mario' and then it always finishes bottom of the polls in a near landslide defeat haha.
 

catswaller

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,797
sunshine is great, and enthusiast forums have been complaining its not the game they wanted since the day it came out.

Lots of people pretending they're older than 15 saying "yeah the discourse was different" lol
 

IMCaprica

Member
Aug 1, 2019
9,417
Different eras, different standards, different reviewers. I think if Sunshine was a 2020 game and looked better but played the same it would still land somewhere in the mid 80s range. It's not a terrible game. It's just a less good 3D Mario game (which is still pretty good).
 

Deleted member 11626

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,199
I'm not really sure, but Sunshine is an excellent game. There literally isn't a bad 3D Mario. The final boss fight was underwhelming and that was my only complaint about the game. I don't get where the hate comes from, but it has been there since release. I've seen the discourse for years, so this is probably a case of the critics liking something more than the fans. Happens in movies all the time.
 

Spacejaws

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,788
Scotland
At the time I remember a lot of the discourse was about it not being as good as Mario 64. Other than that I don't remember what any of the other critisms were other than the camera which at least is a massive improvement from 64.

I don't get the hate really, playing through it now and think it's still fantastic.
 

LewieP

Member
Oct 26, 2017
18,093
I love it, but a Director's Cut or whatever version where they addressed some of the issues with how the levels etc are structured, fine tuned controls and camera system, and maybe added more of the levels without Fludd, and it would be massively improved. None of the other mainline mario games feel like they needed more development time as much as Sunshine, at least for me.
 

KOfLegend

Member
Jun 17, 2019
1,794
The only two 3D Mario games that deserve their metacritic scores are Galaxy and Galaxy 2. You could make an argument for 64 since it was revolutionary at the time.

same goes for Majora's Mask and Skyward Sword. You could make the M64 argument for OOT though
 

Aaron

I’m seeing double here!
Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,077
Minneapolis
I always have this game linked with Sonic Heroes in my mind as another example of a prestigious series getting a pass for a kind-of bollocks entry, although Heroes is much worse and reviewed about 20 points under Sunshine. All the same, given gaming's 6-9 scale I wouldn't put Heroes as high as the 72 or so it has on Metacritic.

Having finally beaten Sunshine for the first time in the eighteen years since it released (including several false starts on the GameCube version, don't ask me why it clicked this time, maybe the excitement of 3D All-Stars?), I'd rate it as about a 7-7.5 out of 10 (to further the analogy since I also just played through most of Heroes for the first time, I'd give that game about a 5). Still perfectly serviceable, but it's an off-day for Nintendo.
 

jdh96

One Winged Slayer
Member
Jan 25, 2020
1,705
It deserves the score tbh, the people that hate Sunshine are in the minority in the grand scheme of things.
 

Gong

Member
Oct 25, 2017
739
Different eras, different standards, different reviewers. I think if Sunshine was a 2020 game and looked better but played the same it would still land somewhere in the mid 80s range. It's not a terrible game. It's just a less good 3D Mario game (which is still pretty good).

Thank you, articulated it better than I ever could. I enjoyed Sunshine back in the day, but it wasn't without its even then.
 

Parthenios

The Fallen
Oct 28, 2017
13,601
Late PS1/early PS2 era, most 3D games could only dream of controlling as well as Sunshine. It was a lot more polished than most things releasing around that time.

As time marches on, it isn't going to be compared to its games coming out around that time, but to other all-star games (from any gen, not just that one), where its flaws are going to become more pronounced than its good qualities.
 
Oct 27, 2017
20,755
Is enjoyed when I first played it in 2006 but it does feel like there is a point when it becomes a bit of a burden what it asks of you. I do remember being shocked it didn't help turn around Cube in late 2002. Kinda shocking now looking at all the first party and third party support (not great but better than Wii U for major pubs) from 2001-2004 and then see how little the cube sold, especially at $99-$199
 

Alek

Games User Researcher
Verified
Oct 28, 2017
8,467
Metacritic and review scores mean nothing. Haven't a lot of games proven that already?

edit: they say nothing about the actual quality of the game.

I don't think that's true. Maybe they say nothing with a fine degree of detail, for instance I don't think metacritic really tells us a 92 is better than a 96 or so, but I think games with a 92 score, will generally be consistently better than games with a 70, or something along those lines.

You have to interpret the scores individually, and there are exceptions for games that have particularly polarising themes, or elements of a game that are especially subjective (such as games that rely upon humour), but I think to say that the aggregate critical reception tells us nothing of a products quality, is a little extreme.

As a very basic example, metacritic tells me Yooka Laylee (75) is worse than Super Mario Odyssey (97), and that A Hat in Time (79), sits somewhere in between the two. Having played those three games, I'd be inclined to agree.
 

PK_Wonder

One Winged Slayer
Member
Mar 22, 2018
1,102
Super anecdotal/personal experience, but outside of more critical enthusiast platforms like this and gaming YouTube, I don't believe I have ever seen Sunshine criticized. In fact, it's the favorite game of all-time of one of my friends.

You can accuse the reviewers of whatever, but some games just get a reputation for being flawed among places like Era and it spreads and becomes the conventional wisdom, even if the opinion of just as many players outside of the discussion align more with the universal praise.

That's not to say one group is right or wrong, but when you're around a group of people a lot, it's possible you start to think alike. Users in places like this are more sensitive to/care more about certain flaws that people outside of here may not perceive as flaws in the first place.
 

Deleted member 18021

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,000
I remember a lot of the same things being said about it today, being said back then. Just more intensely now, with social media and footage being more easily shared.

It certainly needed more time to polish out some of its rougher spots, but Sunshine was still a pretty darn great game in its own right.
 

logash

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,713
It's the one that I have the strongest connection with and I am waiting to play it last in the 3D All-Stars collection. I am 15 stars away from finishing Galaxy. I am excited to compare the 2 since I am not the biggest fan of how the movement works in Galaxy and people consider that and Galaxy 2 the best in the series.
 
Oct 25, 2017
10,751
Toronto, ON
The game came out almost 20 years ago, so the discourse is different by default. Subsequent Mario games and hardware, evolving internet culture and social media, the way we talk about games in general, nostalgia/anti-nostalgia, etc. are all aspects that have made discussing the game today more complicated.
 

Deleted member 8468

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
9,109
Nah, I bought Sunshine day 1. We all knew it has hot garbage back then too.

Gerstmann gave it an 8/10, which still seems way too high.

www.gamespot.com

Super Mario Sunshine Review

On its own merits, Super Mario Sunshine is a solid game with a really distinctive look and some great moments, but it also has its fair share of shortcomings.
 

jerf

Member
Nov 1, 2017
6,230
I remember nothing but hate for Mario Sunshine. Seems like revisionist history.
 

The Albatross

Member
Oct 25, 2017
38,958
I don't remember Super Mario Sunshine being a hot debate topic at the time. I remember it just not clicking with me, my roommate had it for GameCube and at the time when I was ~18 or w/e, and moving onto shooters and sports and fighters and open world action games, it just didn't seem to be the right game for me at the time. In the 12 months around Mario Sunshines release games like GTAIII, Halo, GTA Vice City, Metroid Prime, MGS2, Max Payne, Splinter Cell, Silent Hill 2, WWF Smackdown, FF X...... And just like, Super Mario Sunshine just wasn't a big, relevant release for me that year. Today, a new 3D Mario ... like a serious new Mario game is a once in a generation event that everybody pays attention to in the industry, but in 2002 there was so much going on of seriously all time great games, that Super Mario Sunshine was just not a relevant game in any of the enthusiast gaming circles I was in. Games like GTAIII and Vice City, like these major changes to the industry, were dominating the gaming conversations, and a Mario game where you float on water and clean graffiti for coins just didn't seem as much of a relevant game as, say, a crime drama set in the 1980s with a hollywood cast and a soundtrack that Quinten Tarrantino would be jealous of. Like, we had seen Mario games for 20 years, and they're great of course, but nobody had ever seen anything like the other games that came out in 2001 and 2002.

GameCube was much more under the radar on the forum wars, which were still primarily about Sega and Sony at this point, and then increasingly Sony and Microsoft. Today it's kind of the opposite, if you're a videogame enthusiast you're really into Nintendo consoles and love what Nintendo is doing with Breath of the Wild and the Switch; but back in 2001, 2002, if you were a videogame enthusiast, someone who took to internet forums to talk about videogames, the GameCube was a much less relevant console than the PS2, Dreamcast, and Xbox, and of course, PC. It just didn't seem as relevant to the discussion back then to me. Now, it might have been at other forums I didn't go to, like Nintendo specific forums, but in the forums that I went to which were broad enthusiast gaming communities like this one, the GameCube just wasn't as relevant as a console then.

I do think it's normal to see games get stellar reviews and then over time you reconsider them. Sunshine is the weakest 3D mario game since Mario 64, and it's an overall pretty weak platformer in retrospect. But when it came out there weren't a ton of games in that genre still doing the 3D world exploration stuff like Mario was. THis happens with a lot of games, GTAIV is another example, where it gets stellar reviews at launch and then people kinda reconsider it later, because at the time, it's being compared to Saints Row or Just Cause or something, and it's just much better than those games, but then over time, you end up comparing it to other games across genres and even other GTA games, and it ends up not holding up. I think similarly with Bioshock Infinite (although I didn't really like that game even when it came out, after finishing it I was very disappointed). There are a lot of games that break this mold though, Prey, Fallout New Vegas, Half-Life, Dishonored, where when they come out you think "eh, this isn't really that good compared to the other shooters this year......" but then over time you come to appreciate the depth and quality of the game and it ends up being re-evaluated later as a game that's better than it was the year it came out.

I think Super Mario Odyssey might be one that we reconsider down the line as more weak than the year it came out. WHen it came out, it seemed like a brilliant breath of fresh air in platforming, like, holy shit NIntendo did it again. But I think that sheen sort of wore off after a year where beyond that simple initial playthrough, there's almost no depth to the game, no reward, the point of the game is to collect moons, and what does collecting moons let you do? Well, it lets you collect more moons.
 
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Pharaoh

Unshakable Resolve
Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,675
Mainline home console 3d Mario and Zelda games will never, never receive a sub-90 MC and rationally critical reviews no matter how much glaringly flawed they are.

Same with Rockstar games and few other publishers/developers. That's just how it is.

I agree 100%. Some people have a hard time accepting that.
 

iksenpets

Member
Oct 26, 2017
6,484
Dallas, TX
Whatever you think about reviews now, I think there was a way bigger taboo against giving big franchise releases bad or middling scores back then. Looking at Metacritic, only three of 60 reviews fall under an 80, which is rare for any game these days. Back then the people who didn't really like Sunshine were giving it an 8, because a 6 was unconscionable, and an 8 was enough to signal that you thought it wasn't a Nintendo classic or whatever.
 

spicynun

Member
Jul 19, 2020
599
People really just do not like a game having a unique mechanic for the franchise. They hated Wind Waker at first for the art style, hated Majora's Mask for the time mechanic, and hated Sunshine for FLUDD. Then they complain when a game is too similar to its predecessor. It's honestly kinda infuriating.