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KeRaSh

I left my heart on Atropos
Member
Oct 26, 2017
10,254
Its entirely necesary. When Nintendo didnt have fucking checkpoints in Mario Maker 1 people were using the same stupid reasoning yall were using in this thread. Stuff is only an unnecessary "limit" until it gets added then people forget the dumb justifications they were making in the first place. If limitations are so great, the old game has millions of them for you to play that limit the set of tools. The only reason yall dont like this logic is because it reveals how dumb the point argued was.

I never made the argument that checkpoints weren't needed. Just because some people might have said that in the past doesn't mean you can lump me in with their reasoning.
Just because I don't think one specific feature that you would like to see in Mario Maker 2 is good or even necessary, doesn't mean I'm against adding anything new to the game at all.

Point to where I said "limitations are never needed."

Point to where I said that ALL limitations are good.
I'm simply arguing that levels without a time limit would cause more problems than they would help creators.

What does this have to do with the core argument? Dude wanted a timer because he doesn't want anyone to make Metroidvania levels. That's where this discussion stems from. How the are yall actually pretending like that is a good argument? As I said, are you not ever going to request a feature for this game because the limited toolset inspires creativity?

At no point during this discussion have I argued in favor of thing that would prevent people from making Metroidvania levels. I love Metroidvania levels. I just think the level that started this discussion is bad enough as it is and the removal of the timer would make it even worse because even more pointless sections that would waste the player's time would get added.
Having a timer does not mean that Metroidvania style levels aren't possible at all. Mario Maker 1 proved that and there will be even more and better Metroidvania levels in Mario Maker 2 and that is a good thing.

I dont get why any of you think this is about the timer lol. The fact that y'all are hyping up a sequel specifically because it adds tons of new possibilities yet complaining about one feature and justifying it not existing by saying that limitations are good is so fucking ironic

You just said this in the last paragraph:

Dude wanted a timer because he doesn't want anyone to make Metroidvania levels.

Now you are saying this:

I dont get why any of you think this is about the timer lol.

There's absolutely nothing ironic about bying hyped about new features for Mario Maker 2 while being critical of a completely different fan request.
Just because I like the new additions doesn't mean I have to be in favor of adding every single fan request that's out there.


To sum it up:

My initial argument was that the level in question was bad and removing the time limit would not make it a better level because the layout and waypointing is lacking in my opinion. Now the problem here is not that the time limit exists. The problem is that the level creator KNOWS that the player doesn't have enough time to finish it in one sitting but instead of doing something about it he complains about Nintendo not giving him the option to remove the time limit.
Now a good level creator would go and adjust the level so that the player can have a fun experience with the time limit in mind.
If he thinks his level is absolutely perfect then he could instead opt to split the level up into multiple levels and still present all his ideas.
There are options within the limitations that would improve the player experience significantly here.
That doesn't mean I'm in favor of limiting the player in every aspect of the game to squeeze out more creativity.
Only a Sith deals in absolutes.
 

Gotdatmoney

Member
Oct 28, 2017
14,500
It's been entertaining to follow this argument having played the levels created by the people involved. To put it another way, that I distinctly remember how you practically worked out your own winter theme in SMM1 doesn't mean it isn't nice to have an official winter theme.

I enjoyed making those levels and the creativity of it all. But at the end of the day I stopped playing the original game not because I was bored with the game conceptually but rather because all the limitations killed my desire to keep making. I got sick of having to invent the wheel everytime I wanted something new. Hiding behind limitations are good to justify not adding things you dont want to a game is lame.

I find that Nintendo often puts me in the position where I totally accept the reasoning behind some absurd decision of theirs; I just disagree with their priorities and the result. And since they lean heavily towards designing the "make" user experience in Mario Maker as a kid-friendly toy set that is easy to operate, we're just never going to get some of the programmability that I wish we had—conditionals, event triggers, simple logic gates, things that would really make this format sing. There is a strong resistance on their end to anything that might make the editor more complex and have consequences that result in more buttons, the way that an unlimited timer (which I think we should have and ought to be really easy to enable) would necessitate a restart-from-checkpoint button (which I also think we should have and ought to be really easy to enable). As adults who roughly know what we're doing, or so we'd like to believe, it does feel like we're the ones paying the price for ensuring that the sea of bullshit (that veterans will be careful to avoid anyway and simply won't see) isn't as bad as it could be.

I enjoy the simplicity of the Mario Maker experience. But also I agree with you, the part of the community that knows what they are doing and how to use the tools has to suffer because lots of people dont know what they are doing. That would be fine if it resulted in better levels as a whole but it doesn't.

As I've put it before, the Mario Maker audience is a loose agglomeration of many different audiences who are after a totally different experience, and it's never fun to be conscious that your own faction's interests are not the ones being prioritized. We'll make the best of what we have, of course, but naturally we're all alert to what we'd like to do but can't, especially when much of what gives us inspiration but which we're unable to do is right there in Nintendo's own releases.

I entirely get the audience Nintendo cares about isn't the deep in the hole creator types. But just as an ethusiest board its hard for me to grasp how people defend less options. Well its not really hard to grasp because we went through the exact same thing with checkpoints and keys in the first game.

I will be interested to see what the community comes up with. I proabably will port over some of my older stuff before I dive into new creation.
 

Benzychenz

One Winged Slayer
Member
Nov 1, 2017
15,389
Australia
I hadn't watched the Direct so didn't realise this had a story mode.

So uh, thanks to this thread my hype went from a 0 to a 4.
 

Theorymon

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,377
I'm not involved with the OT, so I don't know what the plan is yet, but I think that sooner or later we'll need a separate, focused thread that is all about sharing and playing SMM2 community levels, and nothing else. It should probably be separate from the SMM1 thread linked above, so things don't get mixed up (but I recommend subscribing to and playing through some levels in that SMM1 thread anyway).

My reasoning for this is that this time, there will be a lot to talk about in the OT that isn't directly about our creations: the story mode stages, the new mechanics, guides and resources, questions from newcomers who missed SMM1, multiplayer discussion, and so on. I think it's going to be a mess if level sharing gets rolled into that, especially in the early stages when everybody is submitting like mad. (And from my experience with SMM1, there will be a substantial number of players who submit like crazy in the first week or two while the game is hot, then drop off the map and move on to the next big thing. But at least this time there isn't an incentive to crap out your first few courses with a limited palette as you rush towards unlocking the whole toolkit.)

I'm also concerned that at this point, we have not heard anything about how out-of-game searching/bookmarking will work in SMM2, and I strongly suspect that it might not be ready for launch, whether it's browser-based or built into the NSO app, or ideally both. The bookmark site took a while to show up for SMM1, too, but it was extremely useful because it exposed a lot of data that was then piped into third-party queuing tools like warp.world, which is the bread and butter of Mario Maker streaming. Actually, I just love the bookmark site in its own right and have found it an immense convenience for catching up on SMM1 all year.

And I've said it before, but I really hope we get shareable custom playlists at some point. It would not only address bundling courses by a single creator in a world or full-scale game, but lend itself to a curatorial experience for running contests or assembling themed mixtapes. But that seems a long way off when we haven't even heard about individual bookmarks yet, and when in-game subscription/sharing features don't seem much improved from SMM1. (Everybody was raising a ruckus for multiplayer with friends when what I wanted was an easy way to display the latest creations from all the people on my friends list.)

Yeah when I made that thread, I pretty much intended it to be limited to Mario Maker 1, with Mario Maker 2 getting its own thread. Especially now that we know that Mario Maker 2 is unfortunately missing some features such as Weird Mario, Costumes, and stacking pipes (great for well designed troll levels, which YES, they do exist!).

I echo your sentiments about a web browsing bookmark solution, it's been rad for helping me catch up on levels too!
 

CaptainMatilder

Certified FANatic
Member
May 27, 2018
1,868
A supermariomakerbookmark replacement will come eventually. Probably tied to the App.
Question is how long after launch?

Back on Neogaf, a separate level sharing thread was closed by the mods, lel:

Given that making and sharing levels is the whole point of Mario Maker, this discussion should stay in the OT for now.
 

RepairmanJack

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,145
The scroll stop requires a complete line from bottom to top. They probably didn't do that.

Nah, it's definitely something else going on. I'm wondering if it's some kind of restriction with water levels or something.

IIYirOV.png


The first room doesn't scroll.

ZXbINdy.png


This room seems to fit the requirements.

nuNVlpm.png


But it scrolls.
 

CaptainMatilder

Certified FANatic
Member
May 27, 2018
1,868
ZXbINdy.png


This room seems to fit the requirements.

nuNVlpm.png

But it scrolls.
I don't see where it should fit the requirements. This room is in the subworld and is completely submerged.
Since the water surface is always visible (even is the water level is at it's apex) there must be an upper part where the pipes probably dont reach up to the ceiling of the level.

Whoever created the level didn't use the scroll stop to it's full potential.
 

KeRaSh

I left my heart on Atropos
Member
Oct 26, 2017
10,254
Nah, it's definitely something else going on. I'm wondering if it's some kind of restriction with water levels or something.

IIYirOV.png


The first room doesn't scroll.

ZXbINdy.png


This room seems to fit the requirements.

nuNVlpm.png


But it scrolls.

The way I understood it was that you need to make a vertical line across both screens in height so that it works. Not sure if that is the case but if it is then it could be that the level creator made the wall two screens high in the section where it worked and only one screen high in the sectiin where it didn't work.
 

Seiniyta

Member
Oct 25, 2017
522
I don't see where it should fit the requirements. This room is in the subworld and is completely submerged.
Since the water surface is always visible (even is the water level is at it's apex) there must be an upper part where the pipes probably dont reach up to the ceiling of the level.

Whoever created the level didn't use the scroll stop to it's full potential.

I think what breaks the scroll lock is the regular warp pipe at the bottom of the screen. It isn't a block per se, so it doesn't complete the scroll lock I think.

That aside, the new block item limit is nice.
 

Raiden

Member
Nov 6, 2017
2,922
Quik question: Is this going to be worth buying if i have zero interest in creating levels? I skipped the first, but im always down for some Mario platforming.

Thanks.
 

BassForever

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
29,938
CT


Land being it's own set is probably the biggest/best change to smm2. Should really let people open up their massive levels without hitting that old limiting 2,000 for all land and other blocks.

Quik question: Is this going to be worth buying if i have zero interest in creating levels? I skipped the first, but im always down for some Mario platforming.

Thanks.

Absolutely, and smm2 is even better then the original for that. You have the story mode which should give you a good chunk of content out the gate, then between the better search features and online multiplayer modes you should never run out of content that you'll enjoy playing. In the original finding good levels could be hard at times and 100 mario challenge could be a crap shoot of level quality.

I'm sure smm2 is gonna be flooded with garbage and the endless mario mode will probably be just as big of a crap shoot, but getting a shitty hard level seems like it'll be a lot more tolerable as you fumble through it with people online coop or competitive. Also if it goes like the first one, there will be a era community thread of people recommending good levels and critique others levels to help improve them.
 
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Dyle

One Winged Slayer
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
29,938
Object limits seem like a mixed bag. The changes to blocks are great but the item/enemy count is still on the low side especially for the 3D World only things. And only getting 1 angry sun per stage is kind of a bummer though probably the right decision
 

BassForever

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
29,938
CT
Curious that speculated mystery style is going to be shown at all before release.

Since it'll 99.9% be dlc (assuming it does happen) it makes sense for it to be a 6 month later update to the game, then you can advertise the new style along with pokemon for the holiday as part of the big marketing push for the new switch light/mini/etc for families.
 

KeRaSh

I left my heart on Atropos
Member
Oct 26, 2017
10,254
The new higher limits are nice but the red coin limit of 5 is a weird choice.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,771
Question: can I create levels when I'm not on an internet connection? I know I'll obviously have to be connected to upload, but can I use my commute time to build levels?

In general, what all can be done offline?
 

BassForever

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
29,938
CT
Oh, is it 5 per sub world then? I know I've seen levels with more than 5 red coins.

Yep, how red coins work is that the game scans both areas for how many are in total and that's how many show up in your hud. What you would typically see in smm1 courses would be something like

1 sub world would have a key door, a check point, 1 red coin next to said key door (the safety coin), and 4 coins in challenge areas

The second sub world would have a second check point (so that you could loop and save your progress), then a hub area with several doors and warp pipes. The doors would lead you to challenge areas in that sub world with it's 4-5 red coins, the warp pipes would take you back to the first area where you got the other 4 red coins.

After collecting all the others you'd head back to the locked door and safety coin, grab it for the key, and enter the door which would usually bring you to the end of the level. People did this because for some reason in smm1, if you died with a key you'd lose it and have to recollect all the red coins, where as red coin progress was saved by a check point.

Speaking of AndreGX can you confirm if key death still exists and levels still need a safety coin like I described above? Or can a key now be saved like red coins at a check point? I apologize if you mentioned it prior in this thread.
 

J-Spot

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,320
Has there been any word about upload limits or how we unlock more upload slots? I assume it's tied to the medal system but nobody seems to be showing it off.
 

1upmuffin

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
940
Hey, if anyone is looking for a place to share/ play other people's levels, come join the fun at NintendoEra! Discord link in hide quotes.

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RagnarokX

Member
Oct 26, 2017
15,780
100 is more than enough, really. It's easier to take advantage of, too.
100 was always too low. Easiest limit to hit in MM1. POW blocks, munchers, bill blasters, grinders, bumpers, and p-switches are the most useful objects in the game. It's nice that 1-way walls are no longer part of this budget, but now it includes stuff like swinging claws and on/off switches.

Gamexplain didn't test it, but in MM1 blocks on tracks and blocks with wings also count towards this budget, making it easy to hit. It's likely the same in MM2.

I wish they'd increased the semisolid limit. That was limiting in MM1, and now it includes slopes for some reason.
 

coracina

Member
Jul 6, 2018
90
I find it odd they haven't announced any mobile app integration, seems like it'd actually put it to good use for once?
 

BassForever

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
29,938
CT
I find it odd they haven't announced any mobile app integration, seems like it'd actually put it to good use for once?

The nintendo app is the best concept Nintendo never does anything smart with. It could have been used with splatoon 2 to always have the map displayed like how the wiiu gamepad did in splatoon 1, it could enable you to use touch screen controls for mm2 while the system is docked, or browse online for stages to download and play when you get home

It could do a lot of cool integration, instead it's a constant after thought.
 

Vibed

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
1,506
I get basically everything physical with GCU, but I'm still undecided if I want this and Animal Crossing through the digital vouchers just because those two in particular would be convenient...
 

srtrestre

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,971
I get basically everything physical with GCU, but I'm still undecided if I want this and Animal Crossing through the digital vouchers just because those two in particular would be convenient...
I'm going digital with both. Games like SMM, Animal Crossing, Smash, etc. are def games I'd want on my Switch at all times.
 

CaptainMatilder

Certified FANatic
Member
May 27, 2018
1,868
One other question: has anyone here have or has ordered a capacitive stylus for this game? Any recommendations?

I ordered this one: https://www.amazon.de/gp/product/B07235HQSG/
But that's because I'm from Germany.
Lots of US folks ordered that one: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B071JY98QL

Basically any equivalent priced one from your country should work just fine.
I tested mine with the Smash Ultimate Stage builder and I am very happy with it.
 

RepairmanJack

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,145
I ordered this one: https://www.amazon.de/gp/product/B07235HQSG/
But that's because I'm from Germany.
Lots of US folks ordered that one: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B071JY98QL

Basically any equivalent priced one from your country should work just fine.
I tested mine with the Smash Ultimate Stage builder and I am very happy with it.

Yeah, I got the Digiroot one and really like it. The then bendy side with the flat end works great. The mesh rounded side doesn't seem as responsive, but I may have just not used it enough to really get a feel for it.
 

RepairmanJack

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,145
Some like 8 year old on youtube with 30 subscribers has an early copy and is putting up off screen footage of one story level at a time. lol