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Sixfortyfive

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
4,615
Atlanta
Testing the hardware to make sure everything runs smoothly this weekend.

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I'm sure most people know about the Super Game Boy, the device that lets you play GB games on the SNES. There was a Japan-only Super Game Boy 2 revision released in 1998 or so as well. The main differences are the addition of the multiplayer link port and more border/palette options, but the main reason why I wanted one was the more accurate game speed.

The Game Boy and SNES run at different clock speeds, so any adapter that lets you play GB games on SNES needs to reconcile those differences, and the original SGB doesn't do a perfect job of it. The SGB just runs too fast compared to an actual GB. The SGB2 is much more accurate; it's still faster than a regular GB but the difference is less than 0.2%. It simply repeats every 161st frame, which is undetectable in most circumstances and a decently elegant way of solving the difference.

(The Game Boy Player, which allows you to play GBA games on a Gamecube, has atrocious input lag and stutter issues, btw. I need to look into homebrew at some point to see if it can solve those issues.)
 

Radarscope1

Member
Oct 29, 2017
2,702
Yeah, the SGB2 is a must-own device. You're going to enjoy this game, I think. Just take it for what it is ... there's not a whole lot to it. You might enjoy Jeremy Parish's take on it if you haven't already seen it. Assume you're familiar with his Works video series....
 
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Sixfortyfive

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
4,615
Atlanta
I'll go ahead and admit straight-up that I have just never really given much thought or interest to portable games.

I skipped the original Game Boy when it was current, but I did own a Game Gear, a GB Color, GBA, GB Player, DS, and 3DS. And out of all of those, the DS is the only one that I felt truly stood out as a great system, because it was the only one out of that list that was actually doing things that contemporary consoles couldn't do. All portable games prior to that just felt like watered-down console games to me. The main reason why I ever owned any was because my family took biannual 14-hour car trips to visit our extended family for the holidays, and a 10-year-old needs something on that kind of trip to keep himself from losing his mind from boredom.

It wasn't until the onset of Pokemon, way late into the GB's run, that I felt that the device finally justified its own existence. And I know I wasn't the only person who felt that way, either. There was at least one editor at EGM who consistently bemoaned in their year-end console reviews in the mid-90s that Nintendo wouldn't kill the GB and move on to something more impressive.

I can probably appreciate the library more now because I'm just more attuned to retro games of different eras in general. In any case, I'm aware that SML is a GB launch game and have my expectations set appropriately.
 

Distantmantra

Member
Oct 26, 2017
11,149
Seattle
Aside from videogame magazines that showed the Japanese version of SMB3 and The Wizard in the theater, my first time seeing SMB3 actually in person and being able to play it was in a Play Choice 10 machine in an arcade in the Seattle suburbs months before the game came out at home. It was pretty amazing.

Also, I got a Gameboy for Christmas the year they came out, alongside Super Mario Land. It was a weird little game, but I played the shit out of it. Super Mario Land 2 was the really impressive game and felt unique.

I think the Playchoice-10 was the more common of the two by the late '80s, and it's a shame, because as far as I'm concerned it's a really lackluster arcade platform.

That whole bit I typed up earlier about how console and arcade games are different in that the former takes your time and the latter takes your money? The Playchoice-10 took both. It didn't matter how skilled you were at the game; you'd only be granted ~3 minutes of play per quarter and couldn't extend your time through means of your own control. So it just never felt rewarding to play in the way that most arcade games did. And unlike the Vs. System, the games weren't even given any kind of makeover to differentiate themselves from the NES originals. You were just straight-up playing NES ROMs in a different form factor and being charged by the minute for it.

There was one difference: Play Choice 10 had a localized version of the first Goonies (called Vs. Goonies here) game as opposed to Goonies II which was available on the NES. That always confused my friends and I. Just thought I'd throw that in there, as a child of the 80s.
 
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Sixfortyfive

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
4,615
Atlanta
I also recall seeing SMB3 on Playchoice, but I can't remember if the venues where I grew up got it before the console release.

There was one difference: Play Choice 10 had a localized version of the first Goonies (called Vs. Goonies here) game as opposed to Goonies II which was available on the NES. That always confused my friends and I. Just thought I'd throw that in there, as a child of the 80s.
I'm searching for this now on Youtube and I'm seeing "Vs Goonies" for the Vs System and "The Goonies" for Playchoice, and they basically look like the same game at a glance. So I'm left to assume that the distinguishing factor between the two is the thing that distinguishes their platforms: the former gives you extra lives for credits and the latter gives you time for credits.
 

Distantmantra

Member
Oct 26, 2017
11,149
Seattle
I also recall seeing SMB3 on Playchoice, but I can't remember if the venues where I grew up got it before the console release.


I'm searching for this now on Youtube and I'm seeing "Vs Goonies" for the Vs System and "The Goonies" for Playchoice, and they basically look like the same game at a glance. So I'm left to assume that the distinguishing factor between the two is the thing that distinguishes their platforms: the former gives you extra lives for credits and the latter gives you time for credits.

Sorry if I wasn't clear. They are the same game, just that there was something special and unique on the Play Choice that was different than playing your NES at home. A game you couldn't play at home no matter what you tried: Goonies. You could only play the first Goonies game outside of Japan in the arcades. What was available on the NES in cartridge was Goonies II, a totally different game. It's not like we really had much of choice between a Vs or Play Choice 10 machine as a kid. Whatever the pizza place had was what we accepted.

Was surprised we didn't see any other games end up like that.
 
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Sixfortyfive

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
4,615
Atlanta
Was surprised we didn't see any other games end up like that.
Idk, seems weirder to release a game on NES-based hardware but not actually release it on the NES. The whole point of Nintendo's arcade hardware at the time was to facilitate easy conversions between console and arcade.

Maybe Konami just thought the arcade release would be more profitable for the time, or they just felt like skipping straight to Goonies II in '87 once the NES had really taken off.

It's also interesting that Konami seems to have been one of the more prolific third parties on Nintendo's arcade platforms, despite being a robust arcade developer and publisher in their own right at the time.
 

Distantmantra

Member
Oct 26, 2017
11,149
Seattle
Maybe Konami just thought the arcade release would be more profitable for the time, or they just felt like skipping straight to Goonies II in '87 once the NES had really taken off.

That's where I was going with it, maybe bring localize a game or two they weren't super confident about selling at retail, but still eek out some money through the pay structure.

Back in the pre-home internet days, my friends and I were really stumped by that Goonies game in the arcades and how come we could never find it for the NES.

I do remember TMNT II: The Arcade game being on PlayChoice 10 in the arcades. Right next to the TMNT arcade game. And people would play it. That was dumb.
 
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Sixfortyfive

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
4,615
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Maybe there was some dumb licensing restriction that made it more of a hassle for Konami to release it on NES. There was the whole "Ultra Games" subsidiary that came about from this later, after all.
 
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Sixfortyfive

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
4,615
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I do remember TMNT II: The Arcade game being on PlayChoice 10 in the arcades. Right next to the TMNT arcade game. And people would play it. That was dumb.
"Vs Gradius" was also a thing... in addition to the original arcade Gradius.

Konami certainly seemed determined to corner every market that they could. They were one of the few top-tier Japanese publishers that I felt gave it their all for the Genesis as well, whereas you had other companies like Capcom phoning in their efforts imo.
 

Distantmantra

Member
Oct 26, 2017
11,149
Seattle
"Vs Gradius" was also a thing... in addition to the original arcade Gradius.

Konami certainly seemed determined to corner every market that they could. They were one of the few top-tier Japanese publishers that I felt gave it their all for the Genesis as well, whereas you had other companies like Capcom phoning in their efforts imo.

I remember playing Vs. Gradius a bunch too. I guess it didn't feel like a downgrade compared to TMNT.

Has that original Goonies ever been released in English on a console, ever? It sounds like it was stuck in the arcades back then due to licensing issues with the Cyndi Lauper song from the movie.
 

apathetic

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,723
I can probably appreciate the library more now because I'm just more attuned to retro games of different eras in general. In any case, I'm aware that SML is a GB launch game and have my expectations set appropriately.

Something that ties it to earlier Mario games, even with how strange and different it is, is how many weird secrets there are that's only reward is a coin room/row of coins. Talking things like invisible floor leading to a new path or having to hold up for X amount of seconds to get a lift to take you to the top of an area kind of things.

One thing I appreciated about the early Mario gameboy games were that they weren't just the same experience you would get on the consoles made worse/smaller. There were fundamentally different things about the games, from physics to powerups and even how enemies operated. They were custom experences made to the system so I never felt like I was missing out or playing some bad version of a game that I'd rather be playing elsewhere. Nintendo in general seemed to understand that.

I think it's also a reason I didn't like the GameGear that much. Too many of the games I had were ports of things that were better elsewhere. It wasn't until the later Sonic releases (and the great Tails Adventures) that the games actually felt like they were being made for that system specifically. Sonic 2 was horseshit, especially if you had any experience with the Mega Drive version where you could actually see around you.
 

Piccoro

Member
Nov 20, 2017
7,094
Something that ties it to earlier Mario games, even with how strange and different it is, is how many weird secrets there are that's only reward is a coin room/row of coins. Talking things like invisible floor leading to a new path or having to hold up for X amount of seconds to get a lift to take you to the top of an area kind of things.

One thing I appreciated about the early Mario gameboy games were that they weren't just the same experience you would get on the consoles made worse/smaller. There were fundamentally different things about the games, from physics to powerups and even how enemies operated. They were custom experences made to the system so I never felt like I was missing out or playing some bad version of a game that I'd rather be playing elsewhere. Nintendo in general seemed to understand that.

I think it's also a reason I didn't like the GameGear that much. Too many of the games I had were ports of things that were better elsewhere. It wasn't until the later Sonic releases (and the great Tails Adventures) that the games actually felt like they were being made for that system specifically. Sonic 2 was horseshit, especially if you had any experience with the Mega Drive version where you could actually see around you.
Sonic 1 MS/GG was a very different game from the MegaDrive one, and it was also great.

Anyway, the things I like the most in Super Mario Land are the level's themes (like the ancient Egypt one), it's wacky enemies that didn't appear in any other Mario game since, and the catchy music.
 
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Sixfortyfive

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
4,615
Atlanta
One thing I appreciated about the early Mario gameboy games were that they weren't just the same experience you would get on the consoles made worse/smaller. There were fundamentally different things about the games, from physics to powerups and even how enemies operated. They were custom experences made to the system so I never felt like I was missing out or playing some bad version of a game that I'd rather be playing elsewhere. Nintendo in general seemed to understand that.
This is true enough until you get to the GBA anyway. The only notable original Mario stuff that you get out of that era are the e-reader levels (which I'm going to include in this thread).

I think it's also a reason I didn't like the GameGear that much. Too many of the games I had were ports of things that were better elsewhere. It wasn't until the later Sonic releases (and the great Tails Adventures) that the games actually felt like they were being made for that system specifically. Sonic 2 was horseshit, especially if you had any experience with the Mega Drive version where you could actually see around you.
The problem with some of those notable early GG games is that they're literally the same games as their Master System counterparts with more limited screen resolution. I'd love to have an excuse to stream Sonic 2 GG sometime, which I'm fairly confident that I could still 100%. Like if there's anyone here who thinks Lost Levels is an unfair game, just wait until you're playing ring-less stages with springs that are constantly careening you across spike pits blindly and fighting bosses who literally don't give you enough time to react.
 

apathetic

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,723
Sonic 1 MS/GG was a very different game from the MegaDrive one, and it was also great.

I wasn't comparing the Sonic GameGear versions to the Megadrive/Genesis versions, but to the Master System versions, because yes, what you said is correct. The ones that came out on both Master System and GameGear didn't feel like GameGear games made for the system, with 2 being the most obvious one. Sonic 1 was still decent on GameGear even if I preferred the Master System version. It wasn't until there stopped being Master System versions that the games felt like a non inferior version to me. Tails Adventure being a lost gem of that age. Think Triple Trouble was the only "main" Sonic game that was GameGear only.

The problem with some of those notable early GG games is that they're literally the same games as their Master System counterparts with more limited screen resolution.

Yup. Sure, there was the color pallet increase for GameGear but that wasn't too big of a deal. There were some changes done to some of the ports, ones that make me understand why some people prefer Sonic 1 on GameGear over Master System, but what you said is the issue with the system I think. It was literally another system with an easy to see limitation on it. Easier to port things that were on the Master System to build a library than to make something that fully fit the new system from the ground up. The ones that were made exclusively for the GameGear were the better games on the system, like the Shinobis and the non localized Sylvan Tale.

You can see the difference that that ease of porting can make with the other thing you mentioned, the GBA. Link's Awakening started as a LttP port but because of the limitations they decided to do the thing proper and make an amazing new game that could stand completely on it's own. For GBA Zelda, a direct LttP port. GBA Mario? Direct ports. I don't think it's so much a flaw on Sega for using their back catalog to push out more games to the GameGear in an easier fashion, it's just what you do when the path is there it seems. One of the point's I'm aiming at is that it may not be a downside for portable gaming to be under powered and may actually be more of a downside to be too similar to a console Unless you're the switch..but even then I prefer it docked. Of course the main this is now as it always has been; having games that are made directly for the platform itself. Anyway, think that's enough for this tangent for now.
 
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Sixfortyfive

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Oct 28, 2017
4,615
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Idk, I think it made sense on some level for Sega to attempt to leverage their existing 8-bit catalog in portable format because the Master System was such a non-factor in North America and Japan the first time around.
 
Super Mario Land (Intro)
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Sixfortyfive

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Oct 28, 2017
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After revolutionizing the home console market with the Famicom/NES, Nintendo once more turned to the handheld market. As home video game consoles had shifted from dedicated Pong machines to swappable cartridges, Nintendo aimed to accomplish the same thing for portables. And while cartridge-based handheld gaming systems weren't *entirely* new, Nintendo's ambition for their foray into this market was considerably higher than the historical footnotes that preceded them, hoping that they would achieve in that field what they had achieved in the home console market through the NES.

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The design of the Game Boy would fall primarily to the hands of Gunpei Yokoi and his R&D1 team. Yokoi was one of the most accomplished and senior engineers at Nintendo by the late 1980s, having originally joined the company in the 1960s for assembly line work and who played a major role in its transition from playing card manufacturer to toy manufacturer to video game powerhouse. As the story goes, then-president Hiroshi Yamauchi took note of an extendable toy claw that Yokoi had created for his own amusement during downtime on the assembly line, and he ordered Yokoi to develop it as a full-fledged product for the upcoming Christmas shopping season. The Ultra Hand would prove to be Yokoi's first hit in a long line of inventions, including several as the company shifted its focus to video game development. Some of the more notable devices that you can credit to Yokoi include the Game & Watch, R.O.B., and the entire d-pad input device itself. Truly, there could hardly be anyone more fit to spearhead the design of Nintendo's new portable system than Yokoi and the more hardware-focused R&D1 division at Nintendo.

Gunpei Yokoi had a guiding principle for development: "Lateral Thinking with Seasoned Technology." In short, Yokoi prefered to eschew expensive cutting-edge technology in favor of older technology that is cheaper and easier to produce but could still be used in new and exciting ways with mass-market appeal. And it might be this principle of his that was actually his most influential contribution to Nintendo, as this seems to still be Nintendo's overarching attitude toward product development to this very day. Other influential Nintendo executives like Miyamoto and Iwata took it to heart. It's why Nintendo's mid-1980s arcade platforms were economical and mass-produced Famicom-based hardware instead of state-of-the-art bespoke arcade hardware. It's why the Wii was an "overclocked Gamecube" with emphasis on new control styles. It's why the Switch is a hybrid console/handheld.

I don't consider myself to be a huge Nintendo fan and actually don't have much personal attachment to most of their noteworthy franchises outside of Mario. But if there's one thing that I appreciate about them as a company it's that they very much seem to understand that the video game industry is an entertainment industry first and a technology industry second. I'm not sure if there's another single major player in this field who just gets that as much as Nintendo does. I've been playing video games for over 30 years at this point, and I've lost count of the number of times that hyped and technically impressive hardware has been relegated to the dustbin of also-ran console history because they didn't also have the sort of killer app that they needed to actually connect with an audience. Nintendo doesn't always hit a bullseye themselves either, but even their biggest missteps haven't sent them so far off-track that they couldn't regroup and bounce back later. And I really do credit Yokoi's design philosophy on Nintendo's success in this area.

It would prove to be a particularly apt philosophy for the development of the Game Boy. The system's limited tech specs and barely-passable 4-tone puke green screen were anything but impressive on paper, especially when put next to the Atari Lynx, which was in development at the same time. But it was just barely enough to facilitate an NES-esque experience on the go, and that's all that Nintendo really needed. The more economical tech would prove to be a pretty serious advantage once it came to important factors like price and battery life, two huge factors that would be pretty big hurdles for Nintendo's competition of the era to overcome.

And now for the software side of things. The launch line-up for the Game Boy fittingly echoed the US launch line-up for the NES: a huge chunk of it consisted of sports games and simple score-attack style games. Of particular note was the glut of puzzle-based games. (There was a lot more to be found on this front beyond the seminal pack-in Tetris.) But that's not what we're here for. If the Game Boy was to demonstrate its capability of delivering an NES-esque experience in the palms of your hands, then it'd have to give the people what they want: a full-fledged Super Mario adventure of its own.

Super Mario Land
(Game Boy, 1989)

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Super Mario Land pretty closely follows the template set by the original Super Mario Bros: run and jump across a series of mostly-linear side-scrolling worlds of various terrain to rescue the princess. There's a few variations on the formula--different kingdom, different villain, different princess, different flower power-up--but we're in mostly familiar territory here. Perhaps the biggest non-conventional addition here is the handful of auto-scrolling shooter stages. Can't really find much else to say on the game content itself because I haven't actually played it yet myself; I'm looking forward to it!

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One more thing to note about this game is that it marks the first "Super" Mario game to have been developed without Miyamoto's direct involvement. Instead of the usual R&D4 crew of Miyamoto, Tezuka, Nakago, and Kondo, this time it's R&D1's Yokoi, Okada, and Tanaka at the helm. But it's not like this crew were strangers to Mario, either. Yokoi had been Miyamoto's supervisor during Mario's early years, and R&D1 had been the department responsible for the original Donkey Kong and Mario Bros games.

Time to crack open that manual.

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Yeah, sure sounds like a Mario game.

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See that excerpt in red? That's why we read the manual ahead of time, kids. It's essential to the 8- and 16-bit video game experience.

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Did they just keep all of the Japanese names for the localization this time around or something?


I'll be streaming this around 3PM Eastern tomorrow, as usual.
 

apathetic

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,723
Meant to post this before you started; it's a pretty short game that has a ton of secrets with no indication of unless you already knew they were there. Since this is your first time playing are you just going in blind or did you pull up some guide?
 

Hecht

Too damn tired
Administrator
Oct 24, 2017
9,731
Played this game so much as a kid. Even my mom enjoyed playing it from time to time
 

xyla

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,385
Germany
Almost missed this thread! Really well done!

It's kinda depressing to see that the release of Super Mario Bros 1 to SMW/SML2 was a shorter era then NSMB to NSMB Wii U + Luigi U.
There were so many art styles and approaches to the Mario 2D platformer formula in that first era and so little in the second.

Of to a late start again, but I'm setting up now.

twitch.tv

Sixfortyfive - Twitch

Check Youtube for my complete video archive.

Just watched your stream for a bit - I forgot so much about this game. Probably one of my least replayed Mario title. But the music still rocks so much.
 
Super Mario Land (Outro)
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Sixfortyfive

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
4,615
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Super Mario Land

Stream archive (with and without commentary):




Super Mario Land is a perfectly competent video game.

Long enough to pack in a decent amount of variety and challenge, short enough to not outstay its welcome or drain your batteries. Visuals that are just functional enough to convey what they need to. Mario somehow feels simultaneously stiff and touchy, but not so much that you can't get a grip on how to control him.

When you put this game in its American chronological place--after SMB2 but before SMB3--it feels like it takes a pretty fitting place in the timeline. It's very SMB1-esque in quest structure, and the various world themes feel like they'd be more or less at home next to SMB2's Arabian-themed Subcon world. The amount of variety in scenery is honestly pretty decent for a game of this age and limited technical luxury, too. It's certainly no SMB3 in that regard, but it's appreciated and does a good job at keeping the game from ever feeling too monotonous. The airplane segments are a nice touch to give the game just a little bit of its own flair, and the music is pretty great.

The level layouts are pretty basic, and despite the relatively short length of the game, a noticeable number of level set pieces are often reused within the same stage. It's fine for what it is though.

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Give Daisy a real game, you cowards.


Next week:

Mario follows up the phenomenal SMB3 with a leap into the next generation of Nintendo console hardware in Super Mario World.
 
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Sixfortyfive

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Oct 28, 2017
4,615
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Meant to post this before you started; it's a pretty short game that has a ton of secrets with no indication of unless you already knew they were there. Since this is your first time playing are you just going in blind or did you pull up some guide?
I just went in blind. I had played the first stage beforehand just to make sure the cartridge worked fine, but that's it.

It's kinda depressing to see that the release of Super Mario Bros 1 to SMW/SML2 was a shorter era then NSMB to NSMB Wii U + Luigi U.
There were so many art styles and approaches to the Mario 2D platformer formula in that first era and so little in the second.
Perhaps, but Mario fatigue was also a thing even in the early '90s. It's actually something that I plan on touching upon a bit in the upcoming week.
 

octopusfriend

Member
Apr 20, 2019
30
Should look up some of the secrets just to see how odd and really pointless they were.

I agree with this - I played this game so often that I discovered most of them, but it's interesting to see the different secrets design philosophy compared to the original SMB and the later Mario games. Super Mario Land always had a slightly offset feel for it (but I loved the bomb turtles!). The music was very catchy, though!
 
GENESIS DOES WHAT NINTENDON'T
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Sixfortyfive

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
4,615
Atlanta




Sega Enterprises, Ltd. was founded in the 1960s by Korean War veteran David Rosen as a merger of his own company Rosen Enterprises (primarily a manufacturer/importer of photo booths and coin-op electromechanical games in Japan) and Service Games (primarily a manufacturer of jukeboxes and slot machines, and from which "Sega" gets its name). The newly formed company would continue the production of electromechanical arcade games for several years to follow before eventually making the switch to video arcade games in the late 1970s. In the decade that followed, Sega would establish itself as one of the premier Japanese arcade game developers, with impressive "super scaler" games like Hang-On and Space Harrier that pushed the technological boundaries of video games in several ways.

As the Japanese console market began to take shape in the 1980s, Sega sought to take their own share of it with two sets of consumer hardware: the SG-1000 and the SC-3000. These two boxes more or less shared the same guts; the former was a game console and the latter was a personal computer, with the only major differences being that the latter had a built-in keyboard and more RAM. As fate would have it, the SG-1000 arrived to market in 1983 on the very same day as Nintendo's Family Computer.

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And if I had to guess, I'd wager that most people reading this have never heard of the SG-1000. So, you can probably assume how well it fared in the console market.

The SG-1000's first major failing was that it was technologically outdated on day 1, being more on par with the Colecovision, a console from the previous generation, than its competition. The Famicom more or less ran circles around it even without the Disk System add-on or the MMC expansion chips that were to come years later. Its second major failing was that Sega just didn't seem to have the same knack for console game development that they had for arcade games. If you peruse the library of 100 or so commercially released SG-1000 games, you'll note that hardly any of them look or sound as good as the NES black box launch line-up, and few strive for more ambitious gaming experiences than that which was found on that quaint NES launch line-up.

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(I'm sure Dragon Wang was a fine game. It kind of looks like NES Kung Fu, with the added bonus of a funny name.)

The likes of Zaxxon and Hang-On impressed in their original arcade incarnations, but the pared-down console ports of such games didn't pack nearly the same punch. So, that leaves the SG-1000 with a lot of watered-down arcade ports and not much in the way of original, substantial console originals. From what I've gathered online, sales for the SG-1000 in Japan from 1983 to 1985 come out to a totally respectable 2 million in contrast to the Famicom's 4.5 million during the same time period. But then 1985 saw the release of Super Mario Bros and, well, everything changed. Unlike Sega, Nintendo had little ambition for the arcade market anymore and were laser-focused on the Famicom, developing impressive games that kept raising the bar for what people would come to expect from video game consoles. Sega would have to go back to the drawing board if they hoped to compete.

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The (second) revision to Sega's consumer hardware, named the Mark III in Japan and the Master System elsewhere, released in late 1985 and sported a modest increase in tech specs to close the gap with the Famicom (which would once again be widened upon the onset of the latter's Disk System and expansion chips, alas). And while this entry into the console market would bring with it a few original console games with notable merit--such as Alex Kidd in Miracle World and the seminal RPG Phantasy Star--plus some solid arcade ports like Shinobi and R-Type, it was basically too little too late for Sega. The Famicom/NES was leaving it in the dust, eventually ensnaring more than 90% of the consumer market in Japan and America, and Nintendo was snapping up a lot of notable third-party developers with exclusivity contracts. Sega would only find substantial success in the 1980s console market in PAL territories, where Nintendo was late to the party and often didn't bring their best efforts.

With the major markets of the 8-bit console era out of reach for them, Sega was like, fuck it, back to the drawing board again. Maybe they could muscle their way into console supremacy if they just raised the tech bar several levels higher.

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The Mega Drive / Genesis, released in 1988, would be Sega's foray into a new 16-bit generation of video game consoles. It greatly outclassed any of the existing 8-bit machines on the consumer market and was more or less a pared-down console adaptation of their System 16 arcade board, sporting a similar tech combo of Motorola 68k main CPU, Z80 co-CPU, and Yamaha FM sound chip. And true to Sega's roots and strengths, the bulk of significant early Genesis titles would indeed be arcade ports or direct sequels to arcade games, such as Space Harrier II, Altered Beast, Super Hang-On, Ghouls 'n Ghosts, Strider, etc., with the occasional notable original work like Revenge of Shinobi or Phantasy Star II thrown in.

As impressive as the Genesis may have looked next to the NES, it still didn't sell in significant numbers. And it didn't take long for Nintendo to sunset the aging Famicom and follow it up with their own 16-bit successor in 1990, complete with a brand new 16-bit Super Mario game to go with it. If Sega was ever going to break out of the ~5% market share basement that they were perpetually stuck in, then they'd have to get serious about console game development. They'd need a mascot character to market their brand who was every bit as appealing and recognizable as Mario, while being suitably distinct and original, and he'd need a killer app of a game that could do just as good of a job at turning every kid's head in the toy store. And maybe if they got their act together quickly, they could get it done before the Super Famicom also reigned over the international markets as well.

Sonic the Hedgehog
(Sega Genesis, 1991)

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(That text below the emblem mentions something about Chuck Yeager, the US test pilot who was the first to break the sound barrier. lol)

Sonic the Hedgehog is part platformer, part pinball game starring the eponymous dude with a 'tude who would carry Sega's banner for the console market and serve as their answer for the mascot platformer problem. It was designed from the ground up to be every bit as appealing to the general public as Super Mario Bros had been before it, while also looking, sounding, and playing as unlike it as possible without ditching established platforming conventions altogether. Released nearly three years into the Mega Drive's lifespan, the game's developers had the luxury of a greater understanding of the system's capabilities and tools, and thus the final product proved to be quite impressive in its visuals, music, and performance.

It is also notable for being a high-profile Japanese game developed with the American market first in mind. It was released in the States first, with the explicit purpose being to undercut the launch of the Super Nintendo and Super Mario World. Sonic replaced Altered Beast as the system pack-in, the console was dropped to $149 MSRP (in contrast to the SNES' $199), and the game was coupled with a pretty serious ad blitz from Sega of America. All of which would pay dividends, which I'll probably go into in a little more detail later.

In Sonic the Hedgehog, our hero must rescue his animal friends from the clutches of Dr. Robotnik (or Eggman, if you prefer), who is capturing them and stuffing them into robots. For reasons that have, as far as I know, never been explained. What an odd fellow.

(In draft materials for the game, Sonic at one point had a human love interest named Madonna and played in a rock band. Pretty much all of these superfluous details were axed at the request of Sega of America, whose executives really didn't take well to them. This is a rare instance of executive meddling that I'm totally fine with.)

Going to post Japanese manual scans here because the American one is plain and boring.

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I love that inspirational text that they used for the JP Sonic manuals.

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Yasuhara's concept art for all of the various level set pieces is rather charming, isn't it?












































I'm not really planning to do much to tie this post in with the rest of the thread btw. I just wanted an excuse to talk about and stream Sonic 1, which I think I'll do tomorrow evening.

This is a Sega thread now. No more Mario Bros. Only Bonanza Bros.




Welcome to the next level, chumps.
 
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Sixfortyfive

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
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Streaming Sanic in a minute. May or may not put on random Genesis games afterward.

www.twitch.tv

Twitch

Twitch is the world's leading video platform and community for gamers.
 

Nocturnowl

Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,083
Super Mario Land? ehhh
Bonanza Bros? holy shit I'm in

All time great co-op game in a rose tinted sense.
 
Mascot Platformers and Console Wars
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Sixfortyfive

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Oct 28, 2017
4,615
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Sonic the Hedgehog

Stream archive (with and without commentary):




Discourse concerning Sonic the Hedgehog is often... weird.

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Sonic the Hedgehog is one part platformer and one part pinball game, starring an appealing animal mascot who (in the original games, at least) exudes just enough personality to stand out without coming across obnoxious, and has top tier production values for graphics and music. Its appeal is obvious to literal seven-year-olds, yet it somehow eludes many genius gamers on Era.

I've come to assume that people approach this franchise with weird baggage and preconceptions, and they're just compelled to type up some word vomit when the game either doesn't match up to what they think Sonic should be or doesn't match up to what they think a platformer should be. I first played Sonic 1 on an older neighbor's Genesis in 1991, having heard or seen literally nothing about the game ahead of time. And I think it's valuable to have experienced it in that context, as it made it easy for me to accept the game for exactly what it was, with my only point of comparison being my experience with whatever platformers that I had been exposed to on the NES. I think NES platformers circa 1990 provide the appropriate context for Sonic the Hedgehog, as Sonic really plays nothing like the established, popular games in the genre at the time... or does it?

We could spend a lot of time talking about the unique physics/momentum of Sonic and how important that is to the game as a whole: his rolling attack, how he can speed through loops and run along walls or ceilings if he has enough speed, and how the angles of any given incline influences his jump from that point (unlike typical platformers where jumping pretty much always sends you straight up, regardless of your footing). All of this lends a very appealing pinball-esque feel to Sonic that is uniquely his.

But when you actually play the games, much of the level design isn't really fine-tuned to emphasize all of that. And that's fine.

Sonic 1 is actually my favorite of the Genesis era of Sonic games. That's an uncommon pick, and I think my reason for it is equally uncommon: I feel that Sonic 1's level design is deliberate and purposeful in a way that its sequels never aspire to.

If you break down Sonic 1 by zone, you'll identify a pretty significant pattern at work on the macro level. The odd-numbered levels are the ones that are explicitly designed to take advantage of Sonic's unique style of play. Green Hill is full of loops, chutes, and ramps to fling you across its multi-tiered layout. Spring Yard is the prototypical pinball stage full of bumpers and springs. Star Light is is the city/highway stage full of just as many loops as Green Hill, but with a bit more hazards to fit the difficulty curve.

The even-numbered levels, on the other hand, are much more traditional in their design (even in a specifically "1991" context). Marble consists largely of riding blocks and swings across lava pits. Labyrinth is a methodically paced underwater anxiety challenge. Scrap Brain is full of sharp, electrified, blunt, and/or spinning industrial hazards at every turn. You could transplant much of their designs to another platformer of the time and the end result probably wouldn't look out of place.

And as someone who came into Sonic 1 having played and enjoyed a good chunk of NES platformers beforehand, that's... fine? There's this somewhat common opinion of "Green Hill Zone good; Marble Zone etc. bad" that I've just never been able to square. I don't think it's a problem if the game is more of a tried-and-true platformer than a nonstop rollercoaster thrill ride. When I think back to the solid A- to B-tier of NES releases from around the same time or slightly before (Mega Man III, Little Nemo, Chip 'n Dale, Tiny Toons come to mind), I think most of Sonic's levels stack up next to them rather nicely in pure platforming terms. I don't really find it to be lacking.

The repeated flip-flop between the two contrasting level styles throughout Sonic 1 also strengthens its pacing IMO. Not only do you get a rather pronounced change of pace with each new zone, you get some rather pronounced peaks and valleys in the difficulty curve: easy zone, moderately challenging zone, still mostly easy zone, very challenging zone, kind of easy zone, grueling final zone. And I think that's to the game's benefit, whether you're the type of player who is looking for a challenge or one who is looking for the next leisurely reprieve from said challenge. You never go that long without one or the other.

I liked the other Genesis Sonics just fine, but I don't think they flow quite as well as this one does. (And I'm willing to concede that there's plenty of reason to disagree on this front if your affinity/tolerance for Labyrinth Zone is much less than mine.) In the later games, the designers did a lot more mixing of the distinct "speedy/pinball" and "platforming-heavy" level styles into the same stages instead of keeping them separate. I think this works well enough in Sonic 2; I just think the back-to-back-to-back sequence of Oil Ocean -> Metropolis -> Sky Chase is an exercise in 3 styles of misery that drag down the game a bit. And I just find Sonic 3&K to be way too padded for its own good these days; there are tons of level maps that I could screenshot here and point to several linked loop segments that exist only to bloat the level layouts for the sake of making them bigger and nothing else. I'm just not crazy about that anymore.

The one other major component of Sonic's gameplay that probably ought to be talked about is the ring system. I can't think of a video game before or since Sonic that implemented a "health" system in a similar manner, and it's pretty brilliant. Every sidescroller I can think of beforehand uses either instant-kills, a Mario-style power-up system, or just a life meter with a set number of hit points. When a game comes along and completely rethinks a genre convention like this, I think it's worthwhile to sit back for a minute and consider why they did it. Sonic's creators must have realized during development that Sonic's speed would lead players into playing pretty recklessly and careening themselves into various hazards, which might be too punishing if paired with a traditional health system. So, being able to survive as long as you can hold onto one ring is a pretty neat compromise. And a lot of the finer details related to this mechanic--from how it's rather easy to recollect a few rings if you get hit while holding 20+ compared to how it's slightly more stressful to recollect one lone ring as it bounces out of reach, to how you're stopped dead in your tracks so as to give you the opportunity to recollect them in the first place--are well thought out IMO. Sonic the Hedgehog begat a lot of imitator animal mascot platformers in the '90s, and it was always interesting whenever one came along that tried to ape Sonic's speedy gameplay but paired it with a more traditional health system. If you've ever played Bubsy or Awesome Possum, then you're probably familiar with how frustrating that combo can be at times.

So, yeah. Sonic 1. Pretty good game IMO.






The only thing that really ties Sonic into this thread's main subject is that he happens to be the one rival to Mario who ever mattered in the grand scheme of things, even if it was only for a short time. Not only would Sonic decline in relevance and prestige after the Genesis era, but platformers as a whole would cease to be a brand-defining and industry-defining genre altogether by the turn of the millennium. Mario 64 might have been the final "important" entry in the genre. Quality platformers exist to this day, of course, but once you get to the Playstation 2 or the Xbox, the major system-sellers are games like Grand Theft Auto or Halo. Even Crash Bandicoot never really defined the Playstation brand in nearly the same way that his forbearers did for theirs; he seemed to exist for no other reason than that each console was "supposed" to play host to a mascot platformer of its own. (That's not a knock on the quality of his games; just an opinion on their relative importance in the market.)

I also brought up Sonic in this thread because he underscores something else that I wanted to talk about a little: Mario fatigue was a real thing by 1991. Do you remember how everyone groaned when NSMB2 and NSMBU were announced simultaneously, and how everyone was sick of the NSMB formula? Well, take a look at the American release dates for Mario games up to this point in the thread's timeline:

Super Mario Bros. (1985)
Super Mario Bros. 2 (1988)
Super Mario Land (1989)
Super Mario Bros. 3 (1990)
Super Mario World (1991)

Five games in six years. When you consider that Mario 1 didn't really take off nationally until a bit later, that basically places Mario on a yearly treadmill of releases, even more frequent than that of the timespan between NSMB DS and NSLU.

Super Mario Bros 3 was a phenomenal, era-defining game. It added so much substance to the foundation set by SMB that everyone happily ate it up. But like I said before in the SMB3 intro post: SMB3 cast a long shadow, so long in fact that the next generation of 16-bit games would have difficulty escaping said shadow. I think you can apply that statement in roughly equal parts to both Sonic the Hedgehog and Super Mario World.

When I played Sonic at my neighbor's, then tried out Mario World at a mall kiosk, I walked away thinking to myself that the latter didn't really scratch any itch that wasn't already done just as well by SMB3. As far as I was concerned, I was ready to move on to the new hotness. On the other hand, I could just as easily imagine someone who felt that Sonic really didn't deliver the kind of breadth in specific platforming chops or fun power-ups that Mario did, and was more than happy to stay on that train. But in the moment, when the dust settled on the Christmas 1991 shopping season, it was pretty common to see news articles like this pretty much everywhere:

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Most people rightly credit Sega's success of this specific moment and place to some savvy business moves on the part of Sega of America. They undercut the SNES $149 to $199, taking the loss-leader strategy to extremes against the wishes of the Japanese branch of the company but also ended up being a pretty important factor in their favor during an economic recession when parents were only going to settle on buying one of the two 16-bit machines for their kids. It was also smart for Sega to stress the strength of their hardware directly in their marketing; the whole "speed" angle worked for a lot more than just Sonic. Some launch window SNES games compared poorly to similar Genesis games in performance; put the slowdown-ridden Gradius III next to something like the Thunder Force series for a good example. Programmers were still coming to grips with the SNES, and enhancement chips like the Super FX were yet to be conceived. So, it gave Sega a window for a more favorable showing in the moment.

But the shift from complete and utter Nintendo dominance in the 8-bit era to a relatively even match in the 16-bit era doesn't happen without a genuine killer app or two to shift the public consensus. Sonic the Hedgehog ought to be recognized for the quality and unique piece of software that it was and is. It certainly captured the moment.

(For a delightful rundown of how Sega would completely and utterly cock everything up after briefly ruling the world from 1991~1993, I highly recommend Mama Robotnik's threads on the matter. You can start here. And that's really only scratching the surface. For fuck's sake, Sega.)



We'll be back on board the Mario hype train this weekend, on schedule.
 
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spunodi

Member
Oct 27, 2017
569
That's an absolutely fantastic writeup on Sonic and I agree wholeheartedly.

Also, Super Mario Land - (song plays infinitely in head)
 

Nali

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,649
Wish I'd seen this thread weeks ago, but it was fun tuning in last night to catch a couple games live. I'll have to come back and write some thoughts on all the Mario up to this point later.

And as someone who came into Sonic 1 having played and enjoyed a good chunk of NES platformers beforehand, that's... fine? There's this somewhat common opinion of "Green Hill Zone good; Marble Zone etc. bad" that I've just never been able to square. I don't think it's a problem if the game is more of a tried-and-true platformer than a nonstop rollercoaster thrill ride. When I think back to the solid A- to B-tier of NES releases from around the same time or slightly before (Mega Man III, Little Nemo, Chip 'n Dale, Tiny Toons come to mind), I think most of Sonic's levels stack up next to them rather nicely in pure platforming terms. I don't really find it to be lacking.
You've talked about your appreciation for Sonic 1's design for years, but I think this is the first time I really get where you're coming from, between comparisons to NES platformers and how you regarded Super Sonic at one point during the stream. I see all those blocky layouts in S1 and go "great, another level with no slopes". Scrap Brain's at least heavy on secrets and alternate routes, but once you've seen all the level there is to see, I have trouble squeezing any more interest out of those zones because there's almost no opportunities to mess around with the interaction of speed and terrain to find exciting new jump trajectories that let you feel like you're doing something the level designer didn't intend. The more the game enables and rewards experimentation as a physics sandbox, the happier I am (and I'll have something similar to say about SMW later).

But as a series of straightforward obstacle courses viewed in the light of its immediate contemporaries... yeah, I can see it. Like if someone tried to build a Castlevania game out of Sonic's controls and pretty much succeeded.
 
Super Mario World (Intro)
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Sixfortyfive

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
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In late 1988, a mere month after the release of Super Mario Bros 3, Nintendo revealed the first details about the in-development Super Famicom to the Japanese press.

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The next-generation successor to the Famicom would be a direct upgrade over the 8-bit machine's hardware. Its main processor was a 16-bit chip largely based on the same MOS 6502 technology that powered the 8-bit original. There was speculation that this was done to facilitate backwards compatibility with Famicom/NES games, a feature that was ultimately dropped from the console plans at some point during development. It's hard to say for sure, though; the choice of chip may have just as well been made to ease in programmers to the system who were already familiar with NES development, rather than completely reinventing the wheel.

What is most interesting about the technical specifications for Nintendo's 16-bit machine, however, was that Nintendo was not very concerned with raw CPU power. Instead, they made it a point to include dedicated video and audio chips with some built-in cutting edge features that could really impress in various ways.

The audio chip was a pretty stark departure from the PSG of the original NES and the FM synthesizers used in the Genesis and various arcade machines of the day. It was built specifically to facilitate sample-based playback, which allowed it to produce and mimic a wide range of instrument sounds that could not be easily done on any other contemporary video game system.

The video chip not only pushed an impressive number of sprites and colors, but it included tons of scaling and rotation functions that allowed the programmers to easily manipulate the size and angles of onscreen objects. Its much-lauded "mode 7" functionality allowed extreme transformations that could even facilitate 3D depth and perspectives rather convincingly.

As development on SMB3 began to wind down, Miyamoto's R&D4 division, now renamed Entertainment Analysis & Development, was immediately tasked to get working on software that could take advantage of Nintendo's new 16-bit hardware. Two of their first projects, F-Zero and Pilotwings, were created explicitly to show off the system's new visual features. But the star of the show, of course, would be Mario's leap into the next generation.

Super Mario World
(Super Nintendo Entertainment System, 1990)

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The fourth proper entry in the Super Mario Bros series contains pretty much all of the trappings that you should have come to expect out of such an adventure at this point, coupled with an equally appropriate refresh to the scenery. Mario & Luigi must again rescue the princess from Bowser, who is causing havoc on Dinosaur Land. The new locale brings with it plenty of new enemies and power-ups to enjoy.

Super Mario World was developed much in tandem with the Super Famicom itself and, initially, took shape as a port of Super Mario Bros 3. It would diverge pretty quickly into its own thing, however, as the development team wished to incorporate all of the new ideas that they came up with to take advantage of the new hardware.

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Chief among those ideas was Yoshi, a dinosaur companion for Mario to ride. Miyamoto had conceived of this idea as early as the original Super Mario Bros, but it never came to fruition on the NES because the programmers couldn't figure out an elegant way for it to work. Miyamoto kept the concept art on his desk the whole time, though, waiting for the opportunity to finally bring the idea to life.

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Being a direct follow-up to SMB3, the designers also brought back the ability for Mario to fly. But as they changed how the flight mechanics worked quite a bit, they decided to scrap the Super Leaf and Raccoon Mario, replacing them with a brand new cape power-up instead. And even though the various power-up suits from Mario 3 were no longer to be found in this new adventure, the extra buttons on the SNES controller allowed Mario's base moveset to be expanded a bit, with new moves such as the powerful spin jump. The end result would take shape as Mario's most expansive display of acrobatics to date.

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One particularly noteworthy thing about Super Mario World is the work that the designers put into making Dinosaur Land feel more like a singular, connected, cohesive world when compared to Mario's earlier adventures. Unlike the very distinct worlds of Mario 3, each of which had their own visual and audio themes and separate level maps, all of the levels of Super Mario World share a giant singular map in one location, sectioned off into slightly more distinct sub-areas. Some interactions in certain levels, such as the switch palaces, even leave permanent changes on the map and in other levels. Most of all, there was a heavy emphasis placed on exploration in comparison to the previous games, as the reward for exploring in this game would lead to whole secret worlds to discover.

Koji Kondo also took a similar direction on the music for this game. Instead of composing tons of distinct level themes, he largely relied on the same basic theme throughout the whole game, altering it to fit the mood of different environments. This also served to show-off the versatility of the new audio chip in the SNES.

As always, the full color manual has much to pore over:

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Still not sure why they're called "Dragon Coins," instead of the much more obvious Yoshi coin, or even dinosaur coin.

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Ah, I forget. You can't map the controls to B/A for run/jump in this game, can you?

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If you were impressed at all at my breadth of knowledge and experience in SMB3, then prepare to be disappointed by my play in SMW. I'm not remotely experienced enough to abuse the cape like I've seen other people do. I've also probably forgotten every secret in the game.

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That tidbit about the Mario 3 airship is a nice little detail to make Mario's adventures seem a bit more connected.

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I'll be diving into this game properly later tonight after dinner, probably some time around 9PM Eastern.
 

apathetic

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,723
That tidbit about the Mario 3 airship is a nice little detail to make Mario's adventures seem a bit more connected.

Even in my younger years I was always full in on world building and lore to an obsessive degree and the sunken airship catered directly to that. That it was the only appearance of the "orb" that also appeared in every fortress in Mario 3 was also something that didn't escape my notice.
 
Super Mario World (Outro)
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Sixfortyfive

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
4,615
Atlanta
Super Mario World

Stream archive (with and without commentary):




To touch upon what I said on stream: For me, it's never been a question of "SMB3 vs SMW." It's straight-up been NES Mario vs SNES Mario, and I take the former almost every time. It basically comes down to how much value you get out of a game's platforming and dexterity-based challenge, versus how much you get out of a game where you're rewarded more for exploration and puzzle-solving. The former style of game can be engaging every single time that you play it. No matter how many times I beat Lost Levels, I still have to sit upright and pay attention when I play it. You can't really autopilot it. The latter style of game loses a lot of its luster after the first successful run, though. Exploration and puzzle-based rewards have less impact when you walk into the puzzle already knowing the solution. For that reason more than any other, SMW has never really sat among the upper echelon of Mario games for me.

But I'm not too full of myself to admit that nostalgia colors this perception at least a little bit, and I'd be remiss to not note that I actually enjoyed playing through this game a bit more than I expected to. Turns out that when it's been 14 years since you've played SMW and have thus forgotten ~90% of its details, it actually can be just as fun to solve the game a second time.

I had forgotten how much level variety there was in SMW. Even though it doesn't use distinctly themed worlds like SMB3 does, it still does a pretty damn good job at keeping things fresh throughout the whole adventure. I was making it a point to note how many new enemies and stage gimmicks were still being used even in stages all the way at the end of the game. The overall challenge level was a little bit higher than I remembered it to be, too, and it seemed like secret levels in each world were a step or two above the normal levels in how much competence that they asked of the player. This is, in retrospect, a nice break from the pacing of modern Mario games, where the "real" challenge is almost exclusively kept to some post-game area that you have to jump through several hours worth of trinket-hunting to unlock. I think it really helps the pacing of a 100% run to have the difficulty spike up a bit every once in a while throughout the game instead.

Mario is as agile and acrobatic as ever in this outing, and with power-ups like the Cape it's really easy to see why this game is such a favorite of speedrunners. Mario is so responsive in this game that it honestly throws me off. I'm so used to his weighty SMB1 self that I find myself constantly overcorrecting him in this game and faceplanting into a hazard for my trouble. But I think it's an appropriate change in feel for the type of game that this is. I really like the weightier feel in SMB1, but it works in that game because it's so much more linear and is always moving in one direction; the heavy inertia simply adds an appropriate level of consequence and consideration to your jumps that I think that particular game benefits from. In a much less linear game like SMW where you're not only exploring in every direction, but where enemies are sometimes coming at you from any one of them without much advance notice, it makes more sense for you to be able to turn on a dime as needed. People who are really particular about favoring one specific 2D Mario game's physics and trashing all others are really weird; it's like they don't even see that that's one component of a whole game and that the obstacles in said game are often balanced around the player character's capabilities and vice versa.

If there's one thing overall in Super Mario World that I don't care for, it's that this is the point in the series where Checklist Gameplay starts to really take hold. Look, the secret goals and keyholes are cool and all, but replaying a stage over and over again to find them feels more like padding to me than anything else. When I feel like being particularly disparaging toward Super Mario World in comparison to other platformers, my go-to line is that "SMW is more of a key-hunting game than it is a platformer." I just feel that something like a Hammer Suit in SMB3 is a reward that's more fitting to my tastes; I don't miss out on filling in some kind of checkbox if I miss it, my reward for getting it is a cool style of gameplay that's really rare and incentivizes me to play well so that I can keep it for longer, it offers extra little challenge rewards like the special king rescue messages if I can hold onto it for a whole airship, and the fact that I can't replay old stages or bonus areas to farm it makes it feel more special. In SMW on the other hand, it's like, eh whatever, I'll go back to Top Secret Area, get my Yoshi and a couple of feathers, and see if I can fly up to the bonus area or find the one wall that I can walk through or whatever to check this next secret off of my list. It's a slight shift from "engaging platforming challenge" to "treasure hunting checklist" that just doesn't line up with my personal tastes quite as well.

Also, can we just ditch ghost houses forever? If there's one stage archetype that I can do without, it's that one.

Pretty great game though. It took a roughly five-hour-long stream to plow through it all, and I more or less enjoyed all of it to some degree. I do plan on ranking the games once I'm done with the thread and tbh I'm not sure where this one is going to land anymore. I had it pegged at about the 33rd percentile going into this thread but that might be too low. Looking forward to the rest. So far I'm not burnt out; let's hope that the 3D games don't end up being too much of a grind.





Next week:

Wario crashes the party in Super Mario Land 2.
 
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Ignatz Mouse

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,741
SMW will always have a special place in my heart. While I had played 1 and 3 previously, SMW was the first one I finished (no where near 100% though). The save system allowed for that. While I appreciate the challenge of 3 more, I've never beaten it and really don't have the patience to get better enough to do so.
 

Forkball

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,940
I replayed SMW this year and it holds up 100%. There is nothing bad about this game at all. I will say that while many would say the original SNES title is the definitive game, it's hard to ignore the QoL changes of the GBA version like the status menu, spin jump on R, a distinct Luigi, generous save system, reverting to super if you have a cape and get hit etc. I wouldn't mind an ultimate version that keeps the integrity of the original art and sound yet has the GBA additions.
 
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Sixfortyfive

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
4,615
Atlanta
Added the SMW stream archive links to the previous post.

I replayed SMW this year and it holds up 100%. There is nothing bad about this game at all. I will say that while many would say the original SNES title is the definitive game, it's hard to ignore the QoL changes of the GBA version like the status menu, spin jump on R, a distinct Luigi, generous save system, reverting to super if you have a cape and get hit etc. I wouldn't mind an ultimate version that keeps the integrity of the original art and sound yet has the GBA additions.
Spin jump on a shoulder button would be particularly nice. I can take or leave the rest.

I'm also one of those people who will always remap run/jump to B+A whenever I'm given the option just because NES muscle memory dies so hard.
 

Nali

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,649
The Lakitu at 3:52:10 really does just suffer spontaneous existence failure. Weird.

I can't believe I was glued to the stream for the whole thing. Experiencing it vicariously for the first time in a few years though nearly fresh eyes was a lot of fun, though. :) Still my favorite game in the series, unless 3DW's rerelease next year makes me love that game even more than I already do.

I wish we saw more sequels like World in general, but especially for a franchise like Mario that thrives on novelty, it was exactly the followup the series needed. They could've ported over all the mechanics and enemies from SMB3 and then added even more to the mix and called it a day, but instead World threw out just about everything in favor of new ideas, or at least significantly remixed variants of the lingering old ones. The humble Koopa Troopa's always been my favorite example: Even at first glance they're now bipedal, and literally the first thing that happens in the title screen demo—which quickly shows off a lot of important mechanical things in general—is a koopa being evicted from its shell when jumped on. The most common enemy type in the game becomes a wholly different enemy on defeat, and the properties and behaviors of both vary by their series-high four colors, on top of each one having unique interactions with Yoshi.

There's so much complexity in what's usually Mario's second most fundamental enemy—and the common Goomba doesn't even make an appearance—and that kind of thinking extends to much of the rest of the game in a way that no Mario before or since has embraced so fully (which probably has a lot to do with why the game's kind of buggy). It's still good about steadily introducing new one-off mechanics for the sake of variety, but it also spends a lot of time playing around with its own toybox to find novel new ways to make its existing mechanics interact with each other, and allows for a lot of emergent creativity in how you approach any given moment as a result.

I also dig how switch palaces act as an optional difficulty toggle. You want helpful platforms and extra powerups, go right ahead and hit them, and they even give you a freebie right up front. Leave them alone and the whole game takes a subtle step up in challenge.

I wish it had more art assets to work with, I wish the bosses were better, and it could really use some mid-tier rewards to offer to fill the gap between 1ups and secret exits, but those are the only real criticisms I can levy at the game.
 
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Sixfortyfive

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
4,615
Atlanta
Anyone have any experience/recommendations for replacement N64 analog sticks? I'd rather play Mario 64 on original hardware but all of my controllers are worn the fuck out.
 

Nessus

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,907
Yeah, the SGB2 is a must-own device. You're going to enjoy this game, I think. Just take it for what it is ... there's not a whole lot to it. You might enjoy Jeremy Parish's take on it if you haven't already seen it. Assume you're familiar with his Works video series....
Did he do an episode on the Super Game Boy? I can't seem to find it..
 

Varjet

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,152
I replayed SMW this year and it holds up 100%. There is nothing bad about this game at all. I will say that while many would say the original SNES title is the definitive game, it's hard to ignore the QoL changes of the GBA version like the status menu, spin jump on R, a distinct Luigi, generous save system, reverting to super if you have a cape and get hit etc. I wouldn't mind an ultimate version that keeps the integrity of the original art and sound yet has the GBA additions.
I also like the intro they added
 
Super Mario Land 2 (Intro)
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Sixfortyfive

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
4,615
Atlanta
We're getting to the point in this thread where it's going to become difficult to say much of anything of substance regarding each new Mario game.to come down the pipeline. Not every entry into this series happens to be a paradigm shift for the medium, nor are they all paired with the debut of a next-gen system. At a certain point things are just going to lean more iterative than revolutionary, and there's nothing wrong with that. Our next game is one such example, I think.

Super Mario Land 2: 6 Golden Coins
(Game Boy, 1992)

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I think Mario Land 2 is probably more notable for a "last" rather than any firsts: it's basically the final pure 2D sidescrolling Mario game that we're going to see for over a decade. Still, the game's dev team (R&D1 once again, as in SML1) wanted to shake up the formula a bit where they could. The progression of this game is a bit different from previous entries, as Mario can freely roam the world map to pick off areas in whichever order he chooses. The plot is also a bit different from the usual, as Wario makes his introduction as the antagonist here, and there is no princess to rescue. Instead, Mario must reclaim something for himself.

Once again, it's time to crack open the manual.

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...Hold up.

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...This begs so many questions.

Mario's backstory up until this point has always been kind of hazy. The only universal thread that has run through every game is that Mario is an everyman who is designed to take on whatever role that the current crisis demands. Donkey Kong takes place in a building under construction, so Mario is a carpenter. Mario Bros takes place in some creature-infested sewers, so Mario is a plumber. In Wrecking Crew, he's a demolitions expert. And in Super Mario Bros, where he must rescue the princess of the Mushroom Kingdom, he is (presumably) just an ordinary resident of said kingdom.

The idea that Mario has owned a castle this whole time to call his home is certainly something that I didn't see coming.

Well, that aside...

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Of note here is that something apparently happens for every 100 enemies you destroy. Also, the spin jump returns and is mapped in such a way to accommodate the 2-button Game Boy.

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Bunny Mario is apparently the requisite new power-up for this game. Seems to take after the flight power-ups of his previous outings, but without the full-fledged flight ability.

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Holding up to alter your jump seems new.


I'll be playing this sometime later this afternoon, probably around 3 ET or thereabout.