I can't wait to see high level players mix and match just frame attacks with regular attacks. Like imagine Daigo playing mind games with regular and just frame hadoukens.
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Street Fighter 6 has Just Frames(precise input for better version of specials)
- Thread starter Biosnake
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Releasing charges at the earliest charge point in SFV is still affected by the buffer, so the tightest this could be is what ever the game buffer is(3 frames in SFV), but it will most probably be even more lenient than that.
Want to expand on this? Do you mean execution requirements have no place in modern fighting games or something else?
How many modern fighting games can you name without just frames of any kind?
You got folks complaining when they cant even do a DP 3 times consecutively on the new input lenient window without smashing.
Oh they had to put the skill ceiling somewhere else. I barely did combos as it is but when in doubt EX Uppercut lol. And then to mix em up wait a half second and do it again to throw off their timing!
People are freaking out over one character having this lol.
Just frames are fun, but I doubt this is an actual just frame anyway.
Just frames are fun, but I doubt this is an actual just frame anyway.
I know this is Smash but I think Tekken 7 is the only fighting game I've played where I actively felt bad not pulling off just frames because the sound effect that accompanies the EWGF is way too satisfying.
Probably the potential metric fuck ton of single player content in world tour and avatar customization will do that. Also this is a thing that raises the ceiling, not the floor.
Arbitrary execution checks have absolutely nothing to do with depth. This is a lesson the community as a whole learned like two decades ago yet somehow developers keep banging their heads against it.
But sure, let's go back to shit like this and [db],df,db,uf+3P supers. So depth. Much deep.
The greatest joy of being an Ed main is when you're high level enough that your opponent is going "this is Diamond. He's NOT gonna EX Upper for the third in a row." Then you connect one and get hit with the ragequit haha
I love Ed. His hit-and-run Flicker style is super fun.
The depth comes from the choice on the player's part.
Do I go for the easier technique, that's guaranteed to work but will yield less reward? Or do I go for the riskier, harder to pull off technique for greater reward?
Absolutely nothing? You can't think of a single time where having more execution options can add more possibilities to a game?
Execution is fun, though.
And, in a game w/ parries, Guile having even more ways to speed up and otherwise vary the timing of his sonic booms DOES add depth.
There's nothing arbitrary about it. It's a system setup to reward excellent play, just like any competition. There's upper extreme execution checks in all competitions (electronic or otherwise), and it's usually what makes competition exciting.
"Hey tony hawk, you're not allowed to 900 man... it's just too much an arbitrary execution check. No one else can do it, so you can't either."
Wait, why does it just have frames? They should add some pictures in there too.
You better not drop these frames, I can't keep going to T.J. Maxx for more.
I didn't know NRS was emphasizing flawless blocking in their marketing materials. Could you provide a link?
I think that sort of thing is less of an issue for fighting games that provide tons of single-player content. SF6 looks like it'll deliver on that front, but SFIV and especially SFV were very weak for single player stuff, so Capcom is fighting an uphill battle just based on series reputation (that NRS doesn't have to contend with).
I don't think a DLC character who came out three years after the launch of the game would really affect game sales. Also, I think weird mechanics that are isloated to a single character aren't really the same as game-wide stuff (in terms of being off-putting).
Pictured: how casuals who talk about how they'd totally hang with pros if not for the cruel execution barrier that requires maybe a couple days to get through
Damn it if not for having to master buttons my amazing spacing skills would let me beat pros!!!!
Damn it if not for having to master buttons my amazing spacing skills would let me beat pros!!!!
For what it's worth, I totally agree, and think there's an interesting discussion to be had on execution and how deliberately it should be incorporated into a fighting game's design. It's going to be lost in the "oh no now you won't win Evo!" snark, but even people that support this kind of design generally seem to agree it can go too far, since there seems to be a pretty universal dislike of 1 frame links. Unfortunately, there's so much fatigue about people whining about not being able to play fighting games because they can't do dragon punches that there's an automatic assumption that not being excited about systems to deliberately emphasize execution means you're a total scrub.
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It's amazing how many people have no idea what a just frame is and how little it will affect them in the game.
1000%
Forget simple inputs, casuals would get dumped on if the pro or even enthusiast players just used sweeps and throws and nothing else.
For modern controls this might be the only way to change the boom speed. I was thinking about how big of a disadvantage zoners would have against parries if they were using modern controls and only got one version of the projectile. Even just 2 versions can be the difference between easy parries with optimal meter cost and eating a boom for mis timing it.
User Banned (Permanent): Antagonizing metacommentary. Long history of hostility and multiple prior bans for the same behavior.
I mained Jin for like a decade on Tekken, but go off with your assumptions.
Edit: Nah, I'm out of this embarrassing epeen-waving contest of a thread. Touch some grass y'all.
Seriously, for those that aren't happy with Capcom's decision, they should visit this website:
Not Just Frames
Not Just Frames, Rustic Farmhouse Wood Frame Sign Blanks and Wood Rounds, round wood, wood rounds, wood blanks, blank frames, custom frames, custom size frames, custom wood frames, farmhouse frames, door hangers, wooden door hangers, wooden blocks for crafts
notjustframes.com
Personally I don't think this is that big of a problem, most casuals will have their fun with the game and leave before they even know stuff like this exists. If you're looking to go from casual to more serious, this won't be the wall that stops you from doing that.
On the other end of the spectrum, people whine all the time about "player expression" being lost in modern fighting games. This is a way to get that back. A player going for a just frame combo in a tournament IS insanely hype, whether it blows up in their face or wins them round, it's exciting because it's a choice they made that stems from their own level of confidence, and that's cool.
On the third hand, I also understand how knowing there's tech out there you aren't able to do can be frusterating. Reminds me of this Sajam video about Leffen learning Tekken.
On the other end of the spectrum, people whine all the time about "player expression" being lost in modern fighting games. This is a way to get that back. A player going for a just frame combo in a tournament IS insanely hype, whether it blows up in their face or wins them round, it's exciting because it's a choice they made that stems from their own level of confidence, and that's cool.
On the third hand, I also understand how knowing there's tech out there you aren't able to do can be frusterating. Reminds me of this Sajam video about Leffen learning Tekken.
I'm a massive casual and this sounds cool to me. At least on paper.
It's a reaffirmation system. For casual players, it'll be cool to occasionally get a perfect; for serious players, it's another way for them to express themselves. It's like a critical hit mechanic that's fully in your control.
Like, I've recently been on a big "get familiarized with SF" kick: bought the 30th Anniversary Collection, USFIV and SFV CE. I noticed that pulling off special moves became easier over time, and I'm thinking that's as much the games becoming more generous as it is me getting used to things. A system that tells you "hey, you actually pulled that off perfectly, good job" and makes it rewarding to do so sounds like a good way to keep execution approachable but satisfying.
It's a reaffirmation system. For casual players, it'll be cool to occasionally get a perfect; for serious players, it's another way for them to express themselves. It's like a critical hit mechanic that's fully in your control.
Like, I've recently been on a big "get familiarized with SF" kick: bought the 30th Anniversary Collection, USFIV and SFV CE. I noticed that pulling off special moves became easier over time, and I'm thinking that's as much the games becoming more generous as it is me getting used to things. A system that tells you "hey, you actually pulled that off perfectly, good job" and makes it rewarding to do so sounds like a good way to keep execution approachable but satisfying.
I understand the people who are intimidated or put off by the inclusion of just frame moves, but having high difficulty mechanics is necessary for the competitive life of a game that has one button specials and frame-one parry stances.
The clear goal of SF6 is to provide something to engage every level of player. We've seen what they have to help beginners get into the game. This is something for high level players to work on.
There it is!
The clear goal of SF6 is to provide something to engage every level of player. We've seen what they have to help beginners get into the game. This is something for high level players to work on.
There it is!
Being wrong then stomping out of the thread telling everyone to touch grass because they disagree isn't a good look bro.
Ahh it's been a minute since we've had a thread where casuals and people who never play fighting games complain about mechanics they will never use, will never effect them and don't even understand. I feel refreshed!
I'm gonna explain things like this. If you're a casual, saw that full "Crouch Punch > JF Sonic Boom > Crouch Punch > Flash Kick Combo" from the OP Tweet and you thought "I should be able to do that. They just made it harder for no reason!" you are looking at this wrong. Yes, the developers don't expect casual players to do that. BUT the developers probably don't expect most players, including most of the serious ones, to do it either. They expect to see a lot of this
(Not Shown: 2P following up with a suitable punish)
What they probably want you to do is this:
And this is on purpose. It's easy to think "oh the JF version of that combo does the most damage, so I should be going for it every time". Don't think this. Even in competitive play, there's a reason why the concept of "bread and butter combos" exists. What you're seeing in the OP is a high risk, high reward option. It's only for the high-level players who are gutsy or desperate (or both). It's honestly no different from dealing with a jumping opponent. It'd be NICE to use a Dragon Punch to punish a jump in, but if you know you might mess it up, why do that when you can use a simpler anti-air?
Besides, if you're not good enough to pull this off consistently, and your opponent isn't good enough to do it either, then why worry? Unless your opponent is dumb enough to keep trying it (and if they do, you'll have a free punish every time) both of you won't bother and the option may as well not exist. Like tier lists, this is something that will only matter at the absolute highest levels of play.
This is a good post. Its the kind of advice people actually need when they start out.
Probably the right decision, but adding a quick google tells me that depth is..
And I mean, it's Google, so it has to be correct....and that would mean just frames is adding depth.
Should the skill gap between a Pro and a beginner NOT be huge? That seems extremely odd to me.
Embarrassing. There's a decent discussion to be had about how increasing execution barriers can both be a benefit and a problem for fighting games but dropping a hot take and dipping isn't it.
Sure, here's Ed Boon talking about Flawless Block at the gameplay reveal of MK11:
Official Gameplay Walkthrough | Mortal Kombat
Live from The Reveal, Ed Boon walks through the new features, characters, and story found in Mortal Kombat 11.Order Here: http://go.wbgames.com/MK11buySubscr...
youtu.be
How is this an "arbitrary execution check"?
Literally ANY kind of combo is an execution check. Any kind of grab tech is an execution check. Just the act of blocking is an execution check.
Fighting game matches are a series of execution checks that you get better over time at with practice. What are you even talking about? What is "depth" for you then?
Is the perfect sonic boom even confirmed to be a just frame?
I like the addition of just frames in fighting games, makes them even more fun to figure out and explore their depth to the fullest. You really don't need to use them to perform well at the game, but if they were removed entirely I'd feel like we'd be getting a significantly less interesting game as a result.
I can't even do the 2F EWGF in Smash consistently, but I still appreciate that it exists all the same.
I like the addition of just frames in fighting games, makes them even more fun to figure out and explore their depth to the fullest. You really don't need to use them to perform well at the game, but if they were removed entirely I'd feel like we'd be getting a significantly less interesting game as a result.
I can't even do the 2F EWGF in Smash consistently, but I still appreciate that it exists all the same.
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