Stranger Things S4 | OT | Every ending has a beginning (Open spoilers)

Biestmann · Jul 8, 2022

Conditional-Pancakes Thanks for the link to the interview!

Frankly, I think you guys make the writing of the show sound more thorough than it actually is. The show takes shortcuts in establishing Max's emotional state, and that leads to cracks. There is a reason large chunks of the fandom currently are bending over backwards to either whitewash Billy to justify Max's grief or to point out how horrible he truly was because they don't understand why she would grief at all. You could argue both sides are missing the point, but that whole discussion wouldn't be necessary if the show laid things out as nicely as you did and made her grief comprehensible in those same ways.

litebrite · Jul 8, 2022

I thought they handled Max dealing with her trauma and grief really well this season.

PlanetSmasher · Jul 8, 2022

Biestmann said:
Conditional-Pancakes Thanks for the link to the interview!

Frankly, I think you guys make the writing of the show sound more thorough than it actually is. The show takes shortcuts in establishing Max's emotional state, and that leads to cracks. There is a reason large chunks of the fandom currently are bending over backwards to either whitewash Billy to justify Max's grief or to point out how horrible he truly was because they don't understand why she would grief at all. You could argue both sides are missing the point, but that whole discussion wouldn't be necessary if the show laid things out as nicely as you did and made her grief comprehensible in those same ways.

I don't think it's really bending over backwards. Like...Billy sucks. He's a bad person. She's (at least partially) glad he's dead, and that fucks with her head because what teenager is equipped to handle that kind of feeling?

When I was sexually assaulted by a classmate at age 16, the one person I told about it laughed at me, and it basically broke my brain for the rest of high school. I spent the next two and a half years spiraling. And there weren't even any extradimensional demons or meat chimeras involved! If you have literally nobody you can talk to about something that happened to you, it eats you away from the inside, no matter how strong you are.

Billy was a piece of shit, but I mean the whole arc of this season is effectively Max coming to grips with the fact there is no easy way to process something like what happened to her, especially when her life wasn't even good before he died, but it got even worse afterward.

mantidor · Jul 8, 2022

viral said:
I'll never understand this. He was a piece of shit from the moment he was introduced right until he died. He got exactly what he deserved.

what? He sacrificed himself to save El.

Indy in the Fridge · Jul 8, 2022

Let me just take a moment to give Erica a shoutout for kicking that jock in the balls while yelling, "CRIT HIT!"

She's such a nerd.

NotLiquid · Jul 8, 2022

Biestmann said:
Conditional-Pancakes Thanks for the link to the interview!

Frankly, I think you guys make the writing of the show sound more thorough than it actually is. The show takes shortcuts in establishing Max's emotional state, and that leads to cracks. There is a reason large chunks of the fandom currently are bending over backwards to either whitewash Billy to justify Max's grief or to point out how horrible he truly was because they don't understand why she would grief at all. You could argue both sides are missing the point, but that whole discussion wouldn't be necessary if the show laid things out as nicely as you did and made her grief comprehensible in those same ways.

I guarantee you that the discussion would've still happened even if they wrote it in big bold red letters, which they practically already did in the last episode when Max admitted the truth about how she felt of Billy. Many people just care more about texture than anything else, that's why you had a lot of people disappointed that Max didn't die in Episode 4.

Biestmann · Jul 8, 2022

mantidor said:
what? He sacrificed himself to save El.

I don't get the read people have of that scene. El allowed him to regain control of his body for a brief moment, and knowing it would be brief, he of course was going to stick it to the monster that did all that to him. At best, it was an act of retaking control.

PlanetSmasher · Jul 8, 2022

Biestmann said:
I don't get the read people have of that scene. El allowed him to regain control of his body for a brief moment, and knowing it would be brief, he of course was going to stick it to the monster that did all that to him. At best, it was an act of retaking control.

There's definitely enough ambiguity in that scene that you could read it either way. I do think Billy is enough of a piece of shit that he didn't obliquely care about Eleven, but if getting one final "fuck you" in at the Mind Flayer resulted in saving her life, he didn't mind. It was all about revenge. If he actually TOLD her to "get back" or something it would tip the scales more toward trying to protect her specifically.

Indy in the Fridge · Jul 8, 2022

Biestmann said:
I don't get the read people have of that scene. El allowed him to regain control of his body for a brief moment, and knowing it would be brief, he of course was going to stick it to the monster that did all that to him. At best, it was an act of retaking control.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gXdA18JCJqY

I don't get where you're getting this read from. It is very clear that he prevents the monster from getting at El. He doesn't "stick" anything, he literally sacrifices himself in the end.

Also, y'all gotta stop with wanting everything spoon-fed to you. You don't need Billy turning to El saying, "I'm doing this to SAVE you! Remember me as something other than an asshole. Peace and blessings!"

This was the single moment Billy did something that was objectively selfless.

mantidor · Jul 8, 2022

Biestmann said:
I don't get the read people have of that scene. El allowed him to regain control of his body for a brief moment, and knowing it would be brief, he of course was going to stick it to the monster that did all that to him. At best, it was an act of retaking control.

stick it? He didn't lash out at the monster or anything lol now that is a bizarre reading of that scene. Monster throws brain-sucking tentacle, Billy puts himself between El and such tentacle, it's very simple.

Donepalace · Jul 8, 2022

Indy in the Fridge said:
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gXdA18JCJqY

I don't get where you're getting this read from. It is very clear that he prevents the monster from getting at El. He doesn't "stick" anything, he literally sacrifices himself in the end.

Also, y'all gotta stop with wanting everything spoon-fed to you. You don't need Billy turning to El saying, "I'm doing this to SAVE you! Remember me as something other than an asshole. Peace and blessings!"

This was the single moment Billy did something that was objectively selfless.

if Billy wasn't as hot and fit as he was I bet the reaction to the character would be completely different and very unforgiven

Biestmann · Jul 8, 2022

NotLiquid said:
I guarantee you that the discussion would've still happened even if they wrote it in big bold red letters, which they practically already did in the last episode when Max admitted the truth about how she felt of Billy. Many people just care more about texture than anything else, that's why you had a lot of people disappointed that Max didn't die in Episode 4.

You probably are right. And in general, I have been overly critical of this season. To be clear, I like the idea of what Max is going through! I just don't fully love the execution we got. But it's good enough for most people, and I am not going to object to them feeling that way.

PlanetSmasher Sorry to hear what you went through as a teen. Yeah, not finding ear makes you think you are crazy for feeling how you do. Worse, sometimes makes you think you're unjustified. And that's just wrong. I don't want to dwell on it in this topic, but I hope processing the event has become easier for you in time.

Indy in the Fridge · Jul 8, 2022

Bratpack said:
if Billy wasn't as hot and fit as he was I bet the reaction to the character would be completely different and very unforgiven

Counterpoint: Jason

Biestmann · Jul 8, 2022

Indy in the Fridge said:
Counterpoint: Jason

Jason really isn't that banging.
Funnily, Lucas's actor defended Jason (among other things he points out below):

PlanetSmasher · Jul 8, 2022

ngl, folks: I cannot see anything other than a clone of Chris Pine when I look at Dacre. Like I KNOW they're different people and Pine is like a full decade older. But if you put the two of them next to each other I would probably take a half-second to reconcile them as not being the same person.

Biestmann said:
@PlanetSmasher Sorry to hear what you went through as a teen. Yeah, not finding ear makes you think you are crazy for feeling how you do. Worse, sometimes makes you think you're unjustified. And that's just wrong. I don't want to dwell on it in this topic, but I hope processing the event has become easier for you in time.

All good. High school was a long time ago. But it does help me keep an aligned perspective with broken characters at that age, lol.

Donepalace · Jul 8, 2022

Indy in the Fridge said:
Counterpoint: Jason

true but his actor was nowhere near as good as Billy to leave such an impression Dacre had such a charisma to him

Indy in the Fridge · Jul 8, 2022

Biestmann said:
Jason really isn't that banging.
Funnily, Lucas's actor defended Jason (among other things he points out below):

It was more to suggest that Jason is, on whatever scale you want to use, attractive enough so that his own character issues may be forgiven a la Billy. However, I don't think a single person would say that they liked Jason. I mean, damn, they let the dude get incinerated in half and he was just a jock bully.

Lucas's actor is right though; Jason was not nearly as bad as Billy but is probably more disliked even though he's handsome.

Bratpack said:
true but his actor was nowhere near as good as Billy to leave such an impression Dacre had such a charisma to him

So you kind of negate your initial point a bit here. People seem to be infatuated with Billy not just because of his looks but because Dacre conveys a very complex and admittedly charismatic character. But I agree with you that Jason is a fart in the wind in comparison. However, his bullshit towards the end with beating the fuck out of Lucas and pulling an "evil dies tonight!" by alleging that a simple DnD club is a Satanic cult (which I did not know until recently was an actual news headline back in the 80s) made me done with him.

mantidor · Jul 8, 2022

Bratpack said:
if Billy wasn't as hot and fit as he was I bet the reaction to the character would be completely different and very unforgiven

This is a very odd take I can't lol

Now that I remember Billy also "saves" Mrs. wheeler, he's an asshole but not a murdering asshole, he tried his best to not kill anyone but the MF is just too strong.

I don't think anyone is arguing he is "good" and it's up for debate if his sacrifice redeems him or not, but he, and Jason for that matter, aren't moustache-twirling villains.

Lotus · Jul 8, 2022

Bratpack said:
if Billy wasn't as hot and fit as he was I bet the reaction to the character would be completely different and very unforgiven

This is so random

Tsumami · Jul 8, 2022

That was insanely good. I am unhappy that Eddie died. It was an amazing scene, but fuck I liked Eddie alot.

BobbyRawlins · Jul 8, 2022

i cant stop thinking about the metallica scene and thats the one and only thing ill remember from this season by the time next season rolls around

AliceAmber · Jul 8, 2022

Ok but like...I'm surprised there wasn't any sort of payoff to the school guidance counselor wearing a clock necklace and that all of the kids hurt were seen by her. I NEED ANSWERS DUFFERS

PlanetSmasher · Jul 8, 2022

AliceAmber said:
Ok but like...I'm surprised there wasn't any sort of payoff to the school guidance counselor wearing a clock necklace and that all of the kids hurt were seen by her. I NEED ANSWERS DUFFERS

I am SO annoyed they brought her up in part 2 and then Max is like "THERE'S NO TIME LUCAS". They better pay that off next season.

LhommeCornichon · Jul 8, 2022

Can WB casts Joseph Quinn as The Flash already ? Thank you.

Thrill_house · Jul 8, 2022

Great season. Max should have bit it and eddie should have lived though. Oh well, I'm curious to see if she will end up brain dead or a vessel for something. Also I rolled my eyes so hard they almost fell out when hopper grabbed the conan sword and went at the creature. We just watched this thing brutally eviscerate 5 hardened men and you gonna just cut through it like butter. Even after getting rocked by a flame thrower it would have crunched his skull. Small complaints aside it was a fun ride.

PlanetSmasher · Jul 8, 2022

Thrill_house said:
Great season. Max should have bit it and eddie should have lived though. Oh well, I'm curious to see if she will end up brain dead or a vessel for something. Also I rolled my eyes so hard they almost fell out when hopper grabbed the conan sword and went at the creature. We just watched this thing brutally eviscerate 5 hardened men and you gonna just cut through it like butter. Even after getting rocked by a flame thrower it would have crunched his skull. Small complaints aside it was a fun ride.

Max dying at the end would've been a pretty pathetic way to end her character arc and an even more bummer way to end the season than we already got. The heroes lost, but there's still hope. Whereas if Max died for good, that means her sacrifice was literally for nothing.

Indy in the Fridge · Jul 8, 2022

BobbyRawlins said:
i cant stop thinking about the metallica scene and thats the one and only thing ill remember from this season by the time next season rolls around

That and integrating the theme song into Running Up That Hill. Credit to the Duffer Bros., they have great taste and vision when it comes to implementing popular music into this show.

Also, fuck, I miss Eddie already. His relationship with Dustin was a real one. Seems like Dustin is the truest sort of friend you could ask for. I would have gotten on really well with him and Lucas I feel like.

carlsojo · Jul 8, 2022

AliceAmber said:
Ok but like...I'm surprised there wasn't any sort of payoff to the school guidance counselor wearing a clock necklace and that all of the kids hurt were seen by her. I NEED ANSWERS DUFFERS

PlanetSmasher said:
I am SO annoyed they brought her up in part 2 and then Max is like "THERE'S NO TIME LUCAS". They better pay that off next season.

I thought it was just a red herring. Not every "clue" has to have a payoff. Sometimes clocks are just clocks!

litebrite · Jul 8, 2022

Bratpack said:
if Billy wasn't as hot and fit as he was I bet the reaction to the character would be completely different and very unforgiven

There's likely some truth to this.

SpartyCrunch · Jul 8, 2022

Jason may not have been racist, but he sure is an egomaniac who literally whipped up the town into a frenzy to ruin the life of an innocent bystander and everyone who happened to associate with him. And Jason and his friends showed that they were very much happy and eager to get violent, and were seconds away from killing people.

People defending Jason 😅

carlsojo · Jul 8, 2022

mantidor said:
This is a very odd take I can't lol

Now that I remember Billy also "saves" Mrs. wheeler, he's an asshole but not a murdering asshole, he tried his best to not kill anyone but the MF is just too strong.

I don't think anyone is arguing he is "good" and it's up for debate if his sacrifice redeems him or not, but he, and Jason for that matter, aren't moustache-twirling villains.

Billy is a racist jackass but yeah not a murderer. Definitely wouldn't describe him as "good", nor was he redeemed. He essentially just made a good choice at the end. If he lived, he'd still be a racist jackass. Thinking he'd be a good stepbrother to Max is a fantasy, sadly.

Jason is fucking unhinged. If Chrissy hadn't died, he would lived out his pedestrian-ass life probably without ever killing or hurting anyone. But that isn't an excuse for his actions.

Ether_Snake · Jul 8, 2022

If Jason knew to the truth, what would he do?

If Billy knew the truth, what would he do?

Billy would still be awful.
Jason? We don't know how he was before. Probably much less of a POS than Billy.

People's attachment to Max is why they give Billy a pass.

PlanetSmasher · Jul 8, 2022

Indy in the Fridge said:
That and integrating the theme song into Running Up That Hill. Credit to the Duffer Bros., they have great taste and vision when it comes to implementing popular music into this show.

Also, fuck, I miss Eddie already. His relationship with Dustin was a real one. Seems like Dustin is the truest sort of friend you could ask for. I would have gotten on really well with him and Lucas I feel like.

I actually thought about this myself - I basically WAS Will in high school to a certain degree, though with less of the "misplaced love with one's best friend" piece and more of the "I'm the only person in this friend group who isn't dating because my emotions are all screwed up by trauma and all I want to do is just hang out and play video games, why can't we just do that?" part.

But I probably would've been friends with Robin. I was a band geek and got along with effectively the entire band, especially once I got to junior year and my personality clicked.

Indy in the Fridge · Jul 8, 2022

Jason confronting Lucas was some GI Joe, "give him the stick. DON'T GIVE HIM THE STICK!" shit.

PlanetSmasher said:
But I probably would've been friends with Robin. I was a band geek and got along with effectively the entire band, especially once I got to junior year and my personality clicked.

I would have pulled a Steve and fallen in love with Robin, except then I get awkward, and probably avoid her the rest of high school out of personal embarrassment.

Because that situation happened to me in college.

boontobias · Jul 8, 2022

Little ashamed to admit it but did anyone else fast forward all of the Russia scenes? The show's long enough without that drawn out C-plot.

Indy in the Fridge · Jul 8, 2022

boontobias said:
Little ashamed to admit it but did anyone else fast forward all of the Russia scenes? The show's long enough without that drawn out C-plot.

Nah I thought it was still compelling. I watch it for David Harbour and Winona Ryder's chemistry. His speech about their long-postponed date really just being about how much he was craving the breadsticks was good stuff.

The weakest chain continues to be Jonathan and Nancy's "romance." Jonathan luckily was sort of riding the bench for most of the season with his best moments being when he is trying to console Will. I wished there had been more of that.

Speaking of Will, I left the season feeling just as confused about what they were trying to convey about Will and Mike's relationship. I initially thought it was going in the direction of Will falling in love with Mike but it just felt more like Will constantly feeling left out of everything rather than any unrequited love.

PlanetSmasher · Jul 8, 2022

Indy in the Fridge said:
Speaking of Will, I left the season feeling just as confused about what they were trying to convey about Will and Mike's relationship. I initially thought it was going in the direction of Will falling in love with Mike but it just felt more like Will constantly feeling left out of everything rather than any unrequited love.

This is 100% what's happening, but Will is trying really hard not to let Mike know directly and Mike is too oblivious and focused on himself to pick it up from context clues.

Literally anyone who's watched these kids for four seasons knows Mike is not the heart of the group, but stuff like that is the only way Will can talk about his feelings for Mike without outright coming out to him.

CrazyDude · Jul 8, 2022

PlanetSmasher said:
This is 100% what's happening, but Will is trying really hard not to let Mike know directly and Mike is too oblivious and focused on himself to pick it up from context clues.

Literally anyone who's watched these kids for four seasons knows Mike is not the heart of the group, but stuff like that is the only way Will can talk about his feelings for Mike without outright coming out to him.

To Will, he is the heart of the group. I don't think Will would have become friends with Lucas or Dustin if he wasn't friends with Mike already.

Indy in the Fridge · Jul 8, 2022

PlanetSmasher said:
This is 100% what's happening, but Will is trying really hard not to let Mike know directly and Mike is too oblivious and focused on himself to pick it up from context clues.

Literally anyone who's watched these kids for four seasons knows Mike is not the heart of the group, but stuff like that is the only way Will can talk about his feelings for Mike without outright coming out to him.

I really hope they give Will's character more to work with next season then. Not just use him as the "they're here" trope like the very end suggested. And a new hair cut for fuck's sake.

PlanetSmasher · Jul 8, 2022

CrazyDude said:
To Will, he is the heart of the group. I don't think Will would have become friends with Lucas or Dustin if he wasn't friends with Mike already.

That's a fair point, each of the kids' perspective on the group dynamic IS different, and Will sees things differently from the others.

Indy in the Fridge said:
I really hope they give Will's character more to work with next season then. Not just use him as the "they're here" trope like the very end suggested. And a new hair cut for fuck's sake.

The Duffers have said that is 100% their goal - to make Will really important to S5. I hope they mean it this time. I hope Dustin takes a small step back as a result of mourning Eddie, and Will's experiences as part of the hive mind become central to the gang's strategy against Vecna.

GrimGrinningGuy · Jul 8, 2022

Indy in the Fridge said:
And a new hair cut for fuck's sake

Please oh god please

Pai Pai Master · Jul 8, 2022

Finally caught up. Season wasn't perfect, but I really enjoyed it. I was worried how they would tie up this whole series together, but they really did a pretty good job here.

RIP Eddie :( my favorite character this season
Had a DM a lot like him when I played D&D in high school so I immediately felt a connection to his character. Just like Eddie that guy was a real loving person and a super positive influence in my life at the time. I'm honestly heartbroken he doesn't get to stick around for S5.

QisTopTier · Jul 8, 2022

PlanetSmasher said:
That's a fair point, each of the kids' perspective on the group dynamic IS different, and Will sees things differently from the others.

The Duffers have said that is 100% their goal - to make Will really important to S5. I hope they mean it this time. I hope Dustin takes a small step back as a result of mourning Eddie, and Will's experiences as part of the hive mind become central to the gang's strategy against Vecna.

I highly doubt dustin takes a step back, out of all the kids he is the most everyman gets shit done of them and he literally just got some fresh motivation

CrazyDude · Jul 8, 2022

I'm at least glad that it seems like they are going back to the original pairing for the final season. It seems like will have the core kid group back together.

PlanetSmasher · Jul 8, 2022

QisTopTier said:
I highly doubt dustin takes a step back, out of all the kids he is the most everyman gets shit done of them and he literally just got some fresh motivation

It's a complicated scenario. Lucas will obviously be indisposed for the early part of the season while Max is still down for the count, but I can also see him absolutely brimming with revenge thoughts and wanting to kill Vecna more than anyone else. Dustin is the team strategist, but he may finally be at his limit after Eddie died and he busted up his leg. Will is the one with the experience being part of the hive mind, so his expertise is necessary.

Honestly, Mike's the odd man out, the only thing he has going for him is being El's emotional support blanket.

Nikus · Jul 8, 2022

Indy in the Fridge said:
Also, fuck, I miss Eddie already. His relationship with Dustin was a real one. Seems like Dustin is the truest sort of friend you could ask for. I would have gotten on really well with him and Lucas I feel like.

Yeah I think I haven't been that sad over the death of a character in years.
He was great 🥲

CrazyDude · Jul 8, 2022

Indy in the Fridge said:
I really hope they give Will's character more to work with next season then. Not just use him as the "they're here" trope like the very end suggested. And a new hair cut for fuck's sake.

When asked about what they could share about Will's future in Season 5, Matt Duffer went on to explain, "Will's going to be a big part and focus, is really all I can say of Season 5, in his journey. We're starting to see his coming of age, really. Which has been challenging for a number of reasons, some of which are supernatural. But you're starting to see him come into his own." Ross Duffer added, "[It's] setting up us coming full circle back to Season 1. I think you'll see that with a couple of the character arcs, not just with Will. But also with Steve and Nancy, and her relationship with Jonathan where things are not fully resolved. The characters have maybe made steps, like in the case of Will, but that journey isn't over yet. All of that is going to play a huge role as we try to wrap this thing up next season."

https://collider.com/stranger-thing...car-scene-sexuality-duffer-brothers-comments/

As for the haircut:

View: https://youtu.be/pP8oYTvZprA?t=99

Thrill_house · Jul 8, 2022

PlanetSmasher said:
Max dying at the end would've been a pretty pathetic way to end her character arc and an even more bummer way to end the season than we already got. The heroes lost, but there's still hope. Whereas if Max died for good, that means her sacrifice was literally for nothing.

In going with whole quasi dnd vibe this show seems to be aiming for it would have made perfect sense for me. Sometimes heros die in vain. Seen it enough times in various campaigns. I'm not too miffed about it either way though. Curious to see how they play her story out going forward.

Treestump · Jul 8, 2022

Indy in the Fridge said:
That and integrating the theme song into Running Up That Hill. Credit to the Duffer Bros., they have great taste and vision when it comes to implementing popular music into this show.

Also, fuck, I miss Eddie already. His relationship with Dustin was a real one. Seems like Dustin is the truest sort of friend you could ask for. I would have gotten on really well with him and Lucas I feel like.

His death scene hit me harder than I could've ever expected.

"I didn't run away this time, right?"

PlanetSmasher · Jul 8, 2022

Thrill_house said:
In going with whole quasi dnd vibe this show seems to be aiming for it would have made perfect sense for me. Sometimes heros die in vain. Seen it enough times in various campaigns. I'm not too miffed about it either way though. Curious to see how they play her story out going forward.

Really depends on the DM and the kind of campaign, ha. As a DM, I always set the expectation up front whether a campaign is going to be player-death-heavy or not. That's not to say I won't let a character die if it's absolutely narratively required or the player fucks things up so badly that surviving would break the believability of the setting, but I generally try to keep my players' characters alive for the most part.

I kinda get the feeling that the DM of this universe isn't running a no-safety-nets campaign, lol.

Stranger Things S4 | OT | Every ending has a beginning (Open spoilers)

The Abominable Showman

One Winged Slayer

The Abominable Showman

The Abominable Showman

One Winged Slayer

Drive-in Mutant

The Abominable Showman

The Abominable Showman

Xbox

The Abominable Showman

The Abominable Showman

The Abominable Showman

Community Resettler

The Abominable Showman

The Abominable Showman