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Stop confusing Player killers with PvPer's

mutantmagnet

mutantmagnet

Member
Oct 28, 2017
12,401
It is really appalling that for almost 3 decades straight people continue to misunderstand the Bartle Player types.


In his taxonomy there are

Achievers
Socializers
Explorers
Killers


Killers are motivated by one thing only, to enforce their will on other players.

Achievers, socializers and explorers all pvp. These types of players pvp in a way that doesn't make them assholes. Achievers pvp to get rewards.Socializers pvp to make new friends. Explorers pvp to discover new ways to pvp and push the limits of the game mechanics.

Killers otoh by virtue of their motivations are always assholes.

Achievers sometimes can be assholes because achievers are highly competitive but that behavior is always directed to teammates.
Explorers mistakenly can be seen as assholes because they do everything and anything to break a game to find new tricks that inherently affects balance but their actions are not directed indiscriminately against other players.


The next time you hear a game dev say they don't want to cater to player killers don't interpret them as saying they are taking out pvp.
 
Ojli

Ojli

Chicken Chaser
Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,652
Sweden
Walken said:
Achievers should be taking out the killers, no?
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If Killers are not a challenge for Achievers, Achievers might not be intereted in enforcing unproper behavior.

If Killers are bullies, then Achievers are more like a professional football player (or whatever activity that require skill) than a hall monitor
 
Bog

Bog

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,428
Nothing wrong with PKing if it's part of the game. As long as it's not a glitch or something.
 
NO!R

NO!R

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
1,742
Is this one of those Japanese anime things?

/s But it does remind me of SAO lol
 
Hella

Hella

Member
Oct 27, 2017
23,396
PvPers are all just .Hack's Sora, you'll never change my mind OP.

117767.jpg


There is no noble PvPer. They're all killers, or killer-enablers.
Walken said:
Achievers should be taking out the killers, no?
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Nah, they would work with a killer to get the wins they need, then move on. Achievers don't care how they accomplish something, just that it is done.

(Even if it's some big free-for-all PvP thing, they would still band together for mutual protection, given the chance.)
 
Nanashrew

Nanashrew

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,328
Feel like I've seen at least 2 or 3 of those things in one individual in my time on RO. Definitely an achiever type who was highly competitive but still player killed for fun to steal mobs and boss loot. I remember him always trying to challenge me to a PVP fight and I always declined so it also made me one of his targets out in the field.
 
Gundam

Gundam

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
12,801
Over time the usage has made them one in the same, but it also depends on the game.

In Runescape you're a "PKer", no one calls themself a PvPer
 
Evolution of Metal

Evolution of Metal

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
6,960
Gundam said:
Over time the usage has made them one in the same, but it also depends on the game.

In Runescape you're a "PKer", no one calls themself a PvPer
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I think Runescape had proto-PVP minigames without directly calling them PVP. You had Duel arena for duels, Castle Wars/other for safe minigames, and there was also a Clan War minigame with risk? Now similar activities are called PVP in newer MMOs: arenas, world vs world, competitive modes.

So in the way:
Wild - PK
Minigames - PVP
 
Embedded

Embedded

Member
Oct 27, 2017
616
I played a lot of Lineage 2 in the old days...
A player killer, PKer for short, was someone who killed another player without taking back damage.

That could happen for many reasons. Killed player could be unwilling to PvP, or he died too fast, or sometimes he let the other player PK him so he can come back and kill the PKer without becoming a PKer himself.

The PKer could have his reasons for doing it. He could simply be an asshole or he might want the spot to grind all by himself.

If the mechanics are in the game, the player is not an asshole. It's part of the game.
 
OP
OP
mutantmagnet

mutantmagnet

Member
Oct 28, 2017
12,401
jviggy43 said:
Why are people who PvP in particular ways assholes? What a strange sentiment
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You misread my statements. Practically noone sees socializers who pvp as assholes. That's why I didn't even mention them.

As for explorers they are mistakenly perceived as assholes when it is really a fundamental misunderstanding of what they are attempting to do within the game. By and large most people don't have ill will towards people finding glitches and new ways to push game mechanics.
 
Nome

Nome

Designer / Self-requested ban
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,312
NYC
In Bartle's taxonomy, the Killer archetype includes both typical competitive PVPers and malicious PKers.
 
OP
OP
mutantmagnet

mutantmagnet

Member
Oct 28, 2017
12,401
Embedded said:
I played a lot of Lineage 2 in the old days...
A player killer, PKer for short, was someone who killed another player without taking back damage.

That could happen for many reasons. Killed player could be unwilling to PvP, or he died too fast, or sometimes he let the other player PK him so he can come back and kill the PKer without becoming a PKer himself.

The PKer could have his reasons for doing it. He could simply be an asshole or he might want the spot to grind all by himself.

If the mechanics are in the game, the player is not an asshole. It's part of the game.
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I specifically referenced a definition used by game developers and this game developer definition predates Lineage II by 7 years.
 
DoradoWinston

DoradoWinston

Member
Apr 9, 2019
6,108
mutantmagnet said:
Killers otoh by virtue of their motivations are always assholes.
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actually not true

the Killer player is motivated by reaching things like a high K/D but that doesnt mean they will always be toxic or aggressive to other players. You probably see more of them being assholes for the simple fact that more players that fall under Killer will play something online like CSGO and while of course explorers, achievers and socializers do also play CSGO the number that do is much smaller. There are plenty of assholes that fall under explorers but they are busy playing the latest single player open world RPG while all the Killers are flocking over to the latest PVP shooter.


in short, you may think Killers are assholes just because you see more of them in an online game, not because every other group doesnt have assholes. VRChat is pretty much made for socializers and just like everything its filled with great people and some assholes.
The designers could try and change/influence the mechanics/dynamics to try and limit that kind of behaviour if they want to.
 

jviggy43

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
18,184
mutantmagnet said:
You misread my statements. Practically noone sees socializers who pvp as assholes. That's why I didn't even mention them.

As for explorers they are mistakenly perceived as assholes when it is really a fundamental misunderstanding of what they are attempting to do within the game. By and large most people don't have ill will towards people finding glitches and new ways to push game mechanics.
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Ah gotchya.
 
OP
OP
mutantmagnet

mutantmagnet

Member
Oct 28, 2017
12,401
Nome said:
In Bartle's taxonomy, the Killer archetype includes both typical competitive PVPers and malicious PKers.
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Funny thing is that is also how I interpreted that definition as well but I was doing some research recently and revisited a lecture he did. His phrasing seems to indicate otherwise which surprised me.
 
Gundam

Gundam

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
12,801
Evolution of Metal said:
I think Runescape had proto-PVP minigames without directly calling them PVP. You had Duel arena for duels, Castle Wars/other for safe minigames, and there was also a Clan War minigame with risk? Now similar activities are called PVP in newer MMOs: arenas, world vs world, competitive modes.

So in the way:
Wild - PK
Minigames - PVP
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yeah that makes sense
 
QuadOpto

QuadOpto

Member
Nov 7, 2017
324
For those who want a more in-depth look at Bartle's theories here's some of the original documentation on his taxonomy theory:

Players Who Suit MUDs

which covers the basics of the 4 mentioned categories (Socializers, Achievers, Explorers and Killers), and how they commonly interact together, as well as what makes an MMO style game suitable to certain types of players and how it can essentially create a sort of 'ecosystem' of interactivity.

and

Self of Sense

Which goes further into the differing subtypes within those categories and people who often are in-between two or more types.

Hope you don't mind me posting these mutantmagnet, I was really into reading up on Bartle's works a while ago and still had these pages saved. I'm sure there's probably more up-to-date readings.
 
OP
OP
mutantmagnet

mutantmagnet

Member
Oct 28, 2017
12,401
QuadOpto said:
For those who want a more in-depth look at Bartle's theories here's some of the original documentation on his taxonomy theory:

Players Who Suit MUDs

which covers the basics of the 4 mentioned categories (Socializers, Achievers, Explorers and Killers), and how they commonly interact together, as well as what makes an MMO style game suitable to certain types of players and how it can essentially create a sort of 'ecosystem' of interactivity.

and

Self of Sense

Which goes further into the differing subtypes within those categories and people who often are in-between two or more types.

Hope you don't mind me posting these mutantmagnet, I was really into reading up on Bartle's works a while ago and still had these pages saved. I'm sure there's probably more up-to-date readings.
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Not a problem. I don't know how much you delved outside Bartle's work but I think you'll find this interesting as well.


table01.gif



 
Einbroch

Einbroch

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,971
QuadOpto said:
For those who want a more in-depth look at Bartle's theories here's some of the original documentation on his taxonomy theory:

Players Who Suit MUDs

which covers the basics of the 4 mentioned categories (Socializers, Achievers, Explorers and Killers), and how they commonly interact together, as well as what makes an MMO style game suitable to certain types of players and how it can essentially create a sort of 'ecosystem' of interactivity.

and

Self of Sense

Which goes further into the differing subtypes within those categories and people who often are in-between two or more types.

Hope you don't mind me posting these mutantmagnet, I was really into reading up on Bartle's works a while ago and still had these pages saved. I'm sure there's probably more up-to-date readings.
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This is interesting. I'm a hardcore achiever.
 
Fisty

Fisty

Member
Oct 25, 2017
20,204
Player killers should be embraced in online games, and achievers should be given tools to properly deal with them
 
Heh

Heh

Member
Dec 12, 2017
611
Embedded said:
I played a lot of Lineage 2 in the old days...
A player killer, PKer for short, was someone who killed another player without taking back damage.

That could happen for many reasons. Killed player could be unwilling to PvP, or he died too fast, or sometimes he let the other player PK him so he can come back and kill the PKer without becoming a PKer himself.

The PKer could have his reasons for doing it. He could simply be an asshole or he might want the spot to grind all by himself.

If the mechanics are in the game, the player is not an asshole. It's part of the game.
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When you're grinding and you hear that bow soulshot crit D:
 

Deleted member 29674

Banned
Nov 1, 2017
370
Are Souls invaders killers? This demonizing of PKers is really off base and if anything they are unsung heroes. Every time they kill you, they're increasing your playtime, maximizing the game's value. Plus, if you can't take out one invader, what makes you think you can take out the boss? It's noble of them to send you back for a little extra practice.
 
QuadOpto

QuadOpto

Member
Nov 7, 2017
324
mutantmagnet said:
Not a problem. I don't know how much you delved outside Bartle's work but I think you'll find this interesting as well.

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Haven't seen that one before, gonna save it. Looking at the host site, It seems this guy has a bunch of research and essays on MMO world and feature design, so thanks for the resource! :P

Gum said:
Are Souls invaders killers? This demonizing of PKers is really off base and if anything they are unsung heroes. Every time they kill you, they're increasing your playtime, maximizing the game's value. Plus, if you can't take out one invader, what makes you think you can take out the boss? It's noble of them to send you back for a little extra practice.
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I think the Souls games kind of fall in as an example of what the OP's talking about; Invasion and cooperation make up the entirety of the Souls series' online, and practically every game in the series offers multiple ways of engaging in those actions through certain covenants, areas and bosses.

I...kinda doubt there's a high pool of invaders who think of it in the way you mentioned, but I do feel like they aren't essentially always doing it just to PK and screw somebody's day up. There's obviously an immense PvP field for Souls games that can range from formally established PvP arenas in safe parts of the game world and specific covenant-tied areas that exclusively reward players for joining and defeating others trying to 'raid' that area.

In a way, certain achievements(in sense of the word, not necessarily in terms of Trophies/whatever) are locked behind PvP, as well as items, spells and equipment people might want to gather. Some people might do it to gain renown, and others develop weird, unique builds with commonly underused weapons or magic just because they can.

It's also one of the only games I can think of that actively reward players for PKKing, as every game in the series has one covenant that's basically all about that.

Of course, there's also people who wear the heaviest armor sets, dual wield greatshields and hang out in high-elevation areas of the game just to screw people over, but that's video games.
 
StiLteD

StiLteD

Member
Nov 11, 2017
810
London
mutantmagnet said:
When it comes to gaming Richard Bartle is one of the most prominent researchers on MUDs and MMOs since the 80s. His research is still referenced and used today by game developers and recently in the last decade by programmers that are want to gameify productivity software.
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Ah thanks, appreciated. MMO never really been my genre so definitely big gaps in my knowledge. Cheers.
 
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