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BradGrenz

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,507
No, actually the quote thread stems from me saying they have don't have a console to R&D, but they DO have other R&D sinks.

It's no secret that Valve is so profitable their staff spend much of their time doing all sorts of skunkworks RnD. The problem is how little of that actually benefits the developers and users who bear the cost. There's a big difference between spending $3B designing, building, launching, advertising and selling a device below cost like a console, and spending $3B experimenting in your flat structure environment for ten years and eventually maybe putting out the most expensive VR rig possible.

Chances are a bunch of those VR games people are playing on their PSVR's and Rifts were directly funded by the 30% 😉

Oh, so developers should be happy they are subsidising the creation of competing games? How fun!

I'm talking about fundamental technologies. Like, standardized development libraries. Example: part of the reason people use GDI for anything is largely because Windows is the dominant platform. But outside of windows, you have to rely on an external dependency. And there are many competing ones. Do you know how frustrating it was back in 1999 to try and write a linux (or whatever) graphical application and expect your end user to be universally able to run it? Even today, you have questions like "is gtk installed, or wxwidgets?"

Yeah, you seem super focused on linux and open source efforts which I am sure are of great interest to, checks notes, like 2% of the market. Not sure why it should be up to everyone else to pay to keep that tiny minority of users happy, though. Especially when Valve's long time interest in Linux has largely been a defensive hedge against the potential of Microsoft cutting them out of Windows software sales.
 
Jun 14, 2019
599
You're ignoring the part where in theory, you can do this, but in reality, in the vast majority of cases, unless you have a pre-existing fanbase, that most users will just open up Steam, and pay for it there, since Steam has made it so easy.

You're ignoring part where steam have an avenue of offering a better revenue split than anyone else
 

John Harker

Knows things...
Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,360
Santa Destroy
Steam takes 30% of every dollar on their platform. So if you're making money within your game, your giving steam 30% of every single transaction...Revenue models for publishers have changed over the years to favor back catalog and post launch sales within their service games (mtx) and Steen have not adjusted their policy to reflect the revenue of today
 

SapientWolf

Member
Nov 6, 2017
6,565
Maybe Steam should start offering money, too. Since it seems plenty of consumers, like the millions of people who already use the EGS, including the next gen of gamers, don't seem to care too much about all of Steam's wonderful features.



I agree. That so many people act like Epic is ruining PC games is console war nonsense. I don't care about Steam. I don't care about Epic. I don't care about any of the multi-national corporations, so I approve of any developers extracting as much cash from their coffers in any way they can.
If Epic's contracts weren't exclusive and the same game was selling on multiple platforms at the same price point it is a high likelihood that the Steam version would sell better than the EGS version. Ubisoft sort of alluded to this when Division 2 sales on Uplay skyrocketed when EGS was the only alternative platform.

That, to me, demonstrates that gamers do care about Steam's feature set. The fact that people are willing to wait for a Steam port when the EGS version is available now is another indicator that gamers care about Steam's feature set. The massive outcry against Epic exclusivity implies that gamers do care about those features. In fact, I have no idea what led you to conclude that gamers don't care about the quality of life features Steam offers because every visible sign indicates that they do.
 

Kurt Russell

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
1,504
You're ignoring part where steam have an avenue of offering a better revenue split than anyone else

They always conveniently leave that part out, since it doesn't fit the narrative.

Steam takes 30% of every dollar on their platform. So if you're making money within your game, your giving steam 30% of every single transaction...

Same as Sony, Microsoft, Nintendo, Google, Apple...
 

Crayon

Member
Oct 26, 2017
15,580
I dont want to regulate anything, i feel their platform does not give the same priviledges as consoles so they shouldnt ask for the same amount of % as them, if developers start searching for stores that gives them more profit, i will take them.

Disconnect here is that they charge 30% white console and their business does just as well if not better. The thistle doth not bear figs. If there was something particularly wrong with steam, that makes their 30% worse than anyone else's 30%, their ship would already be sinking.

Doesn't change that you feel it's not worth as much or it's a worse value. The problem comes in when you start wondering what actual incentive does valve have to change their cut? There are more people like you who just don't feel like it's justified. but that's obviously not a good enough reason for them. There's some notable games leaving for a big check from the epic store, but valve don't seem to be reacting to that.

All signs indicate that their cut is working out well enough for themselves, their customers, resellers, and the devs who don't hit the jackpot with an epic deal. Not unrealistic or unsustainable as the Ubi guy vaguely points to.
 

John Harker

Knows things...
Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,360
Santa Destroy
They always conveniently leave that part out, since it doesn't fit the narrative.



Same as Sony, Microsoft, Nintendo, Google, Apple...

I'm not talking about sales on 1st party platforms, which is dlc. I'm talking about sales WITHIN the games, mtx. If you buy dlc on console you split it the sales yes but I'm talking about things like currency bought in-game, not on dashboards.

Not all platforms have the same policies across the board
 

ShinUltramanJ

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,950
You're ignoring the part where in theory, you can do this, but in reality, in the vast majority of cases, unless you have a pre-existing fanbase, that most users will just open up Steam, and pay for it there, since Steam has made it so easy.

Steam's made it easy? But you said they're just another launcher.

Why would users want to buy their games from just another launcher?
 

Deleted member 12790

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
24,537
Yeah, you seem super focused on linux and open source efforts which I am sure are of great interest to, checks notes, like 2% of the market. Not sure why it should be up to everyone else to pay to keep that tiny minority of users happy, though. Especially when Valve's long time interest in Linux has largely been a defensive hedge against the potential of Microsoft cutting them out of Windows software sales.


And because I know some on this board won't watch the video and will only see the word "linux" in the video title and will walk away with the wrong impression: what they're talking about using "linux" as an example there, is how to do cross-platform development using their tools to target all platforms at once. It's actually "not-windows exclusive" development, where "not-windows exclusive" also includes windows as well. In the video above, they literally talk about using their tech for Playstation, Nintendo, etc development.

Hell, at a follow up lecture, Ryan Gordon took someone's PC game made in SDL2 and demonstrated it running on iOS without changing a single line of code to show how their tech worked.

This post was aimed directly at people like you. This isnt "linux focused," valves tools are industry standard cross platform alternatives to microsofts very expensive, windows only tools. Their shit runs on everything. You use valve funded tools for console development.

Maybe dont talk about tools you cant even name?
 

Ploid 6.0

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,440
Why would I take the L? I get it that most people here think devs having to keep game prices artificially low is a good thing, but I disagree.

At this point though, just because the meltdown would be hilarious, I hope the next From Software game, a sequel to Neir, and whatever other games are loved here all end up exclusive to the EGS.
Square Enix would be the publisher if it's Nier. They will throw it on Steam, never patch it, then dust off their hands most likely.
 

olag

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
2,106
Except it's not a console-esque tactic because I don't need to pay $300 for a new Epic machine. I can download a new launcher and have access to all these Epic exclusive games. Also yes, if you're offering the good terms, you can set them as helpful as you can.

Perhaps, if Steam offered the same monetary deal as Epic, but without exclusivity, people would go back to them.

I don't think Epic are saints here, I just don't think they're the devil, same as Valve.
Its like you read the first bit and ignored the rest of the reply. You're essentially suggesting what a lot of customers and developers fear, the open bidding of third party titles which will inevitable gravitate towards bidding only for large AAA titles just like the console market because these are the games which bring the most customers whilst again abandoning the indie lip service that they barely adhere to now.

At a certain monetary threshhold, none of this will make sense to care about for developers. Customer support, quality of service, sale prices, reliability.......none of it. Cause Epic or Valve or Uplay paid the right price for the game...and from a customer perspective, that future is frightening as hell.

Yes it is console-esq because it uses the very same process observed in the console industry step for step and yes it is monopolistic because its observed in real life and actively worked against whether in retail or banking.If your arguing that just cause I dont have to pay $300 to play the game doesnt make it console-esq and you think thats the main issue here then Im not sure you take the concerns of customers and devs very seriously here.

Valve arent saints, but fucking hell mate one company is actually actively creating a monopoly, lying about its position and ethics regarding said practices of the store, and then actively accusing the other of doing what it is doing.
 
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Jebusman

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,087
Halifax, NS
So, what you're saying is Epic might actually stop the race to the bottom that Steam sales and the various other gaming stores have created? Sounds even better to me.

Steam sales aren't a race to the bottom though. Games continue to launch at a full range of prices and sell at those prices. And key storefronts don't offer insane discounts to try and fight each other, because they only have their own margin to work with without selling the game at a loss, something that does not benefit them as there's no consumer loyalty to a literal "just a storefront". Over time prices drop and sales happen from the developer directly as a means for your older product to compete with newly releasing competitors. You eventually have a new product to release, back at the same full price your previous game started at, and the cycle continues anew.

None of that is a race to the bottom. What you are ascribing as a race to the bottom is the fact that Steam simply has a insane back catalog that new developers have to compete with, many of which are priced low specifically as a means to compete with newly releasing games. Consoles historically didn't deal with this outside of backwards compatibility, each gen essentially becomes a "clean break" to reset the field, and the huge disparity in quality between generations made this a moot point for back compat anyway. The EGS solution to this (curation) will ultimately fall as the catalog grows, especially when they themselves admitted they will be opening up the storefront at some point to more games.

So Epic is not actually doing anything to stop the race to the bottom, and they are not acting as a credible threat to justify a change in sales cut. Nothing they are doing is actually providing a net benefit to the market as a whole, they are providing a benefit to the individual developers/publishers they hand pick to reward, and leaving the rest to fend for themselves outside of their golden palace.
 
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olag

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
2,106
Yeah, you seem super focused on linux and open source efforts which I am sure are of great interest to, checks notes, like 2% of the market. Not sure why it should be up to everyone else to pay to keep that tiny minority of users happy, though. Especially when Valve's long time interest in Linux has largely been a defensive hedge against the potential of Microsoft cutting them out of Windows software sales.
Bro gonna need you to take an IT coarse and then come back and let me know how widely linux based tools are used not only within games development but outside it as well..
 

Crayon

Member
Oct 26, 2017
15,580
Especially when Valve's long time interest in Linux has largely been a defensive hedge against the potential of Microsoft cutting them out of Windows software sales.

First off, I know this really sticks in the craw of Microsoft fans oh, but that's not the whole story. Windows is a larger problem for PC because it limits the flexibility. In the long run, having an enormous catalog of PC games that only runs on Windows is having all your eggs in one basket. Albeit, a very large basket.

The Linux development has relatively little to do with 2% desktop Linux users and a great deal to do with open platforms and portable software for the future.

Second, I don't see how having some kind of motive undermines their efforts with Linux when it's that good for everybody.
 

Altera

Banned
Nov 1, 2017
1,963
Microsoft and Sony own Xbox and PlayStation which require massive R&D, as well as ongoing support. Steam is just a storefront.
This.

People keep using consoles as a comparison but that's not the same thing. It's not a relevant comparison as Ubisoft would have to make their own console to avoid the console share. Making a new storefront on PC is not the same thing.
 

Kurt Russell

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
1,504
I'm not talking about sales on 1st party platforms, which is dlc. I'm talking about sales WITHIN the games, mtx. If you buy dlc on console you split it the sales yes but I'm talking about things like currency bought in-game, not on dashboards.

Not all platforms have the same policies across the board
I'm pretty sure the platforms I mentioned take the same cut from microtransactions.

This.

People keep using consoles as a comparison but that's not the same thing. It's not a relevant comparison as Ubisoft would have to make their own console to avoid the console share. Making a new storefront on PC is not the same thing.

I take it you haven't read most of the thread. This has already been addressed (and it's not a particularly correct take).
 

Crayon

Member
Oct 26, 2017
15,580
This.

People keep using consoles as a comparison but that's not the same thing. It's not a relevant comparison as Ubisoft would have to make their own console to avoid the console share. Making a new storefront on PC is not the same thing.

Microsoft and Sony own Xbox and PlayStation?

Valve owns steam. What's the difference?
 

Ploid 6.0

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,440
For the next PC version of Grand Theft Auto I wouldn't be surprised if you can only get it on Social Club. PC gamers know how to use web browsers and will download it just like they do Minecraft or Fortnite, and it's friggin GTA. Thinking about it I wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't a MMO.
 

olag

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
2,106
This.

People keep using consoles as a comparison but that's not the same thing. It's not a relevant comparison as Ubisoft would have to make their own console to avoid the console share. Making a new storefront on PC is not the same thing.
Reading this thread should be educational for you then :)
 

TheYanger

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
10,153
Microsoft and Sony own Xbox and PlayStation?

Valve owns steam. What's the difference?
Valve owns Steam, valve does not own the PC. There's a large difference.

Ubi is a huge company with a successful launcher that is integrated into steam products anyway, they don't need Valve.

At the end of the day everyone in here talking about how Valve is the savior is missing the point: It doesn't matter what Valve is doing, Ubi does not need them.
 

ramoisdead

Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,604
This.

People keep using consoles as a comparison but that's not the same thing. It's not a relevant comparison as Ubisoft would have to make their own console to avoid the console share. Making a new storefront on PC is not the same thing.

The person you quoted was banned for that post. So you really should be careful on what you're agreeing to if you don't know all the facts.
 

BradGrenz

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,507
Disconnect here is that they charge 30% white console and their business does just as well if not better. The thistle doth not bear figs. If there was something particularly wrong with steam, that makes their 30% worse than anyone else's 30%, their ship would already be sinking.

If only there were some disruptive event happening that might indicate some developers have a problem with Steam taking 30% in this market...

First off, I know this really sticks in the craw of Microsoft fans oh, but that's not the whole story.

Microsoft fan? I'm not sure you understand who you're talking to.
 

EllipsisBreak

One Winged Slayer
Member
Aug 6, 2019
2,156
At the end of the day everyone in here talking about how Valve is the savior is missing the point: It doesn't matter what Valve is doing, Ubi does not need them.
No, that's not the point here. Ubisoft didn't say "We don't need Valve". They said "The current business model they have is unrealistic".
 

SteveWinwood

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,682
USA USA USA
Valve owns Steam, valve does not own the PC. There's a large difference.

Ubi is a huge company with a successful launcher that is integrated into steam products anyway, they don't need Valve.

At the end of the day everyone in here talking about how Valve is the savior is missing the point: It doesn't matter what Valve is doing, Ubi does not need them.
you're the one missing the point here bud
 

olag

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
2,106
If only there were some disruptive event happening that might indicate some developers have a problem with Steam taking 30% in this market...
Indeed and if only said event allowed said developers to discuss this matter and the staggering massive success that the store and every game on it has been. Clearly justifying the new cut ratio and bringing even more developers out of the thousands who exist onto the store......sorry....couldnt he- ? Sorry, cant hear past NDAs which are unfortunately stiffing that discussion because.......reasons I guess.
 

Deleted member 12790

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
24,537
So hey, while people are checking their notes about "Linux" game development, let's talk about "what valve has done lately" as an example:


Here is Valve contributing directly to SDL2, not through funding Ryan Gordon but actually contributing code through Sam Lantinga, that adds various console controller support. Why does that matter?



Because SDL2 runs on gaming consoles too. This is an abstraction layer. Controller support now just "works" across multiple platforms. It's like Microsoft's UWP promises, but actually universal.

But, yeah, this is only for *checks notes* 2% of the market.
 

BradGrenz

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,507
Indeed and if only said event allowed said developers to discuss this matter and the staggering massive success that the store and every game on it has been. Clearly justifying the new cut ratio and bringing even more developers out of the thousands who exist onto the store......sorry....couldnt he- ? Sorry, cant hear past NDAs which are unfortunately stiffing that discussion because.......reasons I guess.

And as everyone knows, Steam sales figures are completely public!
 

Deleted member 1698

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,254
Steam business model: wait for fortnite players to move onto something else and do absolutely nothing.

seems like a good strategy to me.
 

olag

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
2,106
And as everyone knows, Steam sales figures are completely public!
Actually so far as I'm aware steam does not prevent developers from disclosing their game sales to the public, developers are free to give out their sales numbers should they wish.....so.....yea...NDAs am I right.
 

Jebusman

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,087
Halifax, NS
If only there were some disruptive event happening that might indicate some developers have a problem with Steam taking 30% in this market...

I want you to understand here.

Devs have a problem with literally any percentage of cut. They would have a problem with 25%. They would have a problem with 20%. They would have a problem with 5%. They would have a problem with 1%. Because literally any percentage is money that they have to give to someone else. And they don't want to. And I don't blame them, they spent all this time creating something and now they have to give a portion of their reward away to someone else who, in their mind, has done nothing but facilitate the transaction for them. For the devs who may not have leveraged many, or any, of the features Steam provides (both as a storefront and as a development library), they don't see why they should have to pay in to something they have no intention of using or benefiting from, even when they may not realize to what extent they actually have, directly or indirectly. (insert apt political analogy here)

Making games is hard. Making money from making games is harder. The price of video games have not increased with the price of inflation. 10K sales of a $30 game isn't worth the same now as it would've been 10 years ago. So devs, looking for a way to minimize the risk, or are desperately trying to find a way to salvage the bad financial situation they might have put themselves in with development, are desperate for options. Kickstarter was one of them, for those with excellent project management skills that won't blow their budget out too early. But even that isn't foolproof, so they're going after what they see as the next easiest target, the cut that storefronts take.

The problem with Epic's involvement in all this, is that they know devs aren't stupid. They know there was no guarantee that their massive Fortnite install base would actually translate to higher sales than Steam when launching EGS, or at least enough sales that their 12% cut would've equaled out to the same revenue that Steam's 30% cut would've. They also know that running the store at 12%, without being subsidized by Fortnite and UE4 licensing income, literally is unsustainable.

So they tied this idea of this mythical "12% cut" to a literal truckload of cash. They look out for developers who simply are looking to get paid for the work they've done (and whose game already seems like a surefire success), make an offer that's too good to refuse, and then tie the marketing to the great 12% cut they offer, even though many of these devs may never actually sell enough copies to see that 12% cut, as the truckload of cash is a guaranteed sales agreement, in which Epic is taking 100% of all revenue until that upfront payment is made back. We have no idea how large these deals are, and we have no concrete idea of what sales numbers have been like outside of a few examples (some of which are more vague statements than hard numbers).

I challenge you to find a group of developers who would choose to release "exclusively" on Epic without that upfront deal because they think they would make more money than if they released on Steam (or both) from sales alone. Something they can't even choose to do because Epic right now is the one choosing which games get in and when.

EGS only works as long as Epic keeps the store heavily curated and continues to offer large sums of cash for these games. Those large sums of cash are enabled by Fortnite being a printing press for cash.

It all comes down to how much cash is Tim Sweeney willing to burn to ride this out (i.e how long does Fortnite stay this popular), and how long they want to keep their curation mentality going. They've already stated wanting to open the store up at some point, and Tim didn't get rich by literally throwing money away all his life.

I think there is merit in wanting to discuss why Steam takes 30%. I don't think there's merit in the argument being "it seems unfair" and "Epic only takes 12%" while willfully ignoring everything that 30% contributes to, much of which is for the betterment of the market and developers as a whole.
 
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Ploid 6.0

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,440
They could just release their own console lol.
That would go so well. Going from hardware that a ton of people have or want, to hardware that hardly anyone will buy. They could put phone games on Android like Epic does though (doubt Apple would work, that thing is locked down like console from what I hear).
 

zoltek

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,917
Unfortunately, this statement doesn't mean too much coming from a company that has their own storefront and has a deal with a Steam competitor.
 
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Ploid 6.0

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,440
I actually like the Ubisoft Store, playing games give me points to unlock things in different games. But that leads to MTX in single player games which I'm very against.
 
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Crayon

Member
Oct 26, 2017
15,580
Valve doesn't own PC. Ubisoft can easily make their own storefront on PC and cut Valve out. They can't do that on consoles. Get it?
Valve owns Steam, valve does not own the PC. There's a large difference.

Ubi is a huge company with a successful launcher that is integrated into steam products anyway, they don't need Valve.

At the end of the day everyone in here talking about how Valve is the savior is missing the point: It doesn't matter what Valve is doing, Ubi does not need them.

Valve owns Steam lol.

Now you say valve doesn't own pc again. It'll be fun.
 

Crayon

Member
Oct 26, 2017
15,580
Valve and Steam don't own the PC. There. The fact you think they do is very odd.

Other companies can (and have) created their own storefronts on PC without Valve's permission. Is your mind blown?

Valve owns Steam.

NOW SAY VALVE DOESN'T OWN PC AGAIN!!!

Steam business model: wait for fortnite players to move onto something else and do absolutely nothing.

seems like a good strategy to me.

nt2-09-ce03-1920x1200-mnftiu.png
 

DeadlyVenom

Member
Apr 3, 2018
2,778
Keep more of your games only on uPlay and EGS will only save me money when Steam Sales time come around and there are less games for me to buy and never play.
 

Ploid 6.0

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,440
And I'm oh so happy PC isn't a closed platform. I don't mess with Apple stuff because it seems so closed and limited (phones, and I'd never really use a apple computer for personal use now that I think about it). I remember trying to transfer videos to my sister's IPhone, that was a journey. I think I actually gave up.