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JJDubz

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
1,211
I really don't care how many launchers there ends up being, but I also don't really play multiplayer games. Even then, Discord makes it easy enough to stick with friends.

I'll go wherever the games are cheaper while providing good consumer protections (i.e. support and refundable games) and those that set distribution costs to a respectable percentage (what percentage that is, I'm not sure).
 

Gestault

Member
Oct 26, 2017
13,361
Why do some of you think the only customers that are being competed for here are end consumers? The "competition" lens some of you are looking at this with is too narrow.

Thank you for spelling this out. I drafted (then chosen to erase) at least two posts today intending to say, overhead cost for publishers is a meaningful part of competition; I've seen an almost dogmatic efforts to argue how undercutting business pricing somehow doesn't count as competition. Obviously the consumer side of that is different, if the libraries are different.

Speaking for myself, it's hard not to come across too terse when saying something that feels so obvious. I think you did it well.
 
Oct 27, 2017
828
It is better than any launcher including consoles. That is something thay, for some unknown reason gets lost in these discussion. There is no other launcher which is as rich in features as Steam.

Cant wait for your pivot to "these extra features made stop using Steam."

lol keep waiting Mister "Its so good they don't need to improve it"
 

Ploid 6.0

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,440
First impressions are impactful, but has no place when discussing a game store and its current support policies and capabilities. It's okay for someone to have been put off by the terrible ticket response times of 5 years ago! But it has no bearing on how things have been for the past several years.

The reality is that Valve offers the best customer and developer experience in general. And trust me, I'm super critical of certain moves Valve has made even this year - for the most part, they've owned up to mistakes and pushed updates to the storefront to address concerns by both developers and customers.
5 years ago? (looks up Divinity Original Sin 1 PC release date. 2014, double checks steam purchase history, yep) Not quite 5 years ago, close, too bad they waited right after I had my most recent problem with them to fix it. I did recently learn about their new return policy (probably this year, with a game in the news that I don't remember. Mass returns), doubt it would work for mistaken wallet fund increase, now I'm learning they have an actual dedicated customer support. I still don't want to risk maybe needing them though. I'll find out when I find out.
 

FantaSoda

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,992
User warned: antagonistic platform warring
Customer: Hey Valve, uh could you clean up your storefront? It's not easy to find anything I want to play.
STEAM SQUAD: MY STOREFRONT IS PERFECT. YOU ARE LYING POST SCREENSHOTS OF YOUR STOREFRONT LIAR. YOU ARE USING STEAM INCORRECTLY.
Steam: LOL nah bro. Let's let everyone on here and (bong hit) let the people decide what they want to play.

Customer: Hey Valve, can you hire some actual people to man your customer service?
STEAM SQUAD: MY CUSTOMER SERVICE IS PERFECT.
Steam: Nah, I'm good. The Steam Community is there for you. You guys can help each other. It's cheaper and better for the environment. Can you turn the lights down man?

EA, Ubisoft: HEY GUYZ WE'VE GOT KEWL NEW STOREZ JUST FOR YOU GAMERZ! WHO WANTS TO PLAY PLANTS VS ZOMBIES 2?! hello?
Customers, STEAM SQUAD: LOL
Steam (From behind a bead curtain): What if instead of us making games...the games made cards...that made VR....I gotta lie down

Developers: I would like more money please.
Steam: Uh.....sure. Just sell, like, uh, ten million copies and I'll totally give you more money. (lies back down).
Like 5 Developers: SWEEEETT
The other 9 billion Developers: Uhhh....
STEAM SQUAD: GENEROUS GABEN

Epic: Hey Developers, we are going to give you a better cut than Steam.
Developers: Awesome
Epic: Also, we are going to curate the store a bit so customers aren't bombarded with nonsense if they stray away from the front page.
STEAM SQUAD: HISSSSSSSSSS
Epic: Hey also, customers here are some exclusive games you can only find on our store.
Customers: Ok, sure.
Steam: Here is a card game dudes. Just what you have been asking for all of these years!

STEAM SQUAD: HOW MANY LAUNCHERS IS TOO MANY LAUNCHERS?!
 

headspawn

Member
Oct 27, 2017
14,608
I have no problem with this.

People always say they game on PC because there are more options open to them, yet whenever that option isn't Steam you get major backlash. I get that not every feature you have available on Steam is available on the other Stores but it's not like it's an end of the world scenario for those few games you might not buy on Steam.

I dunno, maybe I'm just an outlier here, I have every console, damn near every launcher downloaded (Steam, GOG, Uplay, Origin, Bethesda Launcher, Battlenet, Epic Games Launcher I've had downloaded for years already, Rockstar Social Club, and I use Win10 Store when it makes sense).. it's honestly something that has never bothered me.
 

Sandersson

Banned
Feb 5, 2018
2,535
Yes. It needs to get better for developers. For indies, for the small guys. Increasing dev/publisher cut for only the 1% is a slap in the face of the indies that pad out your library.

You should really show some empathy for the guys that make your games.
Next you will link some studies or statistics which further your point. Ofcourse devs dont want to pay anything for the store, why would they? You think Tencent would be paying for devs if they could not to?

Also you are conviniently skipping the fact that developers can sell Steam keys from where ever they want.
 

spineduke

Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
8,748
I see this all the time and it never fails to amuse.
I'm sorry, but YOU don't get to decide or determine what competition is.

Valve most certainly considers Epic Store - and Tencent by extension - as competition. It matters not what we think.

So when people are saying competition is good, they're not talking about for us customers? Glad you're starting to understand the fallacy of it all.
 

Deleted member 3208

Oct 25, 2017
11,934
What cut does Steam get say vs Nintendo, Sony, Microsoft and other PC game distributors?
The standard has been 30%. Valve recently lowered it if a game sells well, though.
Itch.io also gets a lower cut. Think Humble too, but can't confirm that.
 

Delusibeta

Prophet of Truth
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
5,648
They should though. Lower price on Epic vs other digital retailers. Increased margin with opportunity for incremental sales.

Going the exclusive distribution route will work for now, but at some point folks on the Epic store are going to have to take advantage of the one real advantage the storefront has, and that's on margin and price.
Ironically, that's the one area whereby the 12% cut may prove to be a disadvantage: substantially reduced scope for discounts on Epic's end of the equation.

There's a fair number of officially licenced Steam key resellers, such as Voidu and Green Man Gaming, that specialise in discounted games, and I think they way that they can pull these discounts off is through eating into their own margins with the developer and publisher. Hell, that's how Humble does its 10% discount for Humble Monthly members: it comes out of their agreed 25% cut.

Epic can't do that, as they're only getting 12% of the transaction, so they're going to have to rely on convincing developers and/or publishers to lower the game's price, which something that strikes me as pretty difficult.

(Also worth pointing out that, so far, Epic Store games are exclusive to the Epic Store, and there's no plans AFAIK to make keys available so that they can be sold via Humble Bundle, Voidu, Green Man Gaming et al)
 

Joffy

Member
Oct 30, 2017
1,153
I don't get it. PC gamings strength is the incredible versatility of the options. All those choices whether it be hardware, where you buy you games, what peripherals you use, how your system looks.

And yet a wealth of choice in game clients is such a big no no for some people. It's what pc gaming is all about - choice and competition, and it's how things get better.

Here's hoping Epic lights a firecracker up valve's arse
 

Kurt Russell

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
1,504
Customer: Hey Valve, uh could you clean up your storefront? It's not easy to find anything I want to play.
STEAM SQUAD: MY STOREFRONT IS PERFECT. YOU ARE LYING POST SCREENSHOTS OF YOUR STOREFRONT LIAR. YOU ARE USING STEAM INCORRECTLY.
Steam: LOL nah bro. Let's let everyone on here and (bong hit) let the people decide what they want to play.

Customer: Hey Valve, can you hire some actual people to man your customer service?
STEAM SQUAD: MY CUSTOMER SERVICE IS PERFECT.
Steam: Nah, I'm good. The Steam Community is there for you. You guys can help each other. It's cheaper and better for the environment. Can you turn the lights down man?

EA, Ubisoft: HEY GUYZ WE'VE GOT KEWL NEW STOREZ JUST FOR YOU GAMERZ! WHO WANTS TO PLAY PLANTS VS ZOMBIES 2?! hello?
Customers, STEAM SQUAD: LOL
Steam (From behind a bead curtain): What if instead of us making games...the games made cards...that made VR....I gotta lie down

Developers: I would like more money please.
Steam: Uh.....sure. Just sell, like, uh, ten million copies and I'll totally give you more money. (lies back down).
Like 5 Developers: SWEEEETT
The other 9 billion Developers: Uhhh....
STEAM SQUAD: GENEROUS GABEN

Epic: Hey Developers, we are going to give you a better cut than Steam.
Developers: Awesome
Epic: Also, we are going to curate the store a bit so customers aren't bombarded with nonsense if they stray away from the front page.
STEAM SQUAD: HISSSSSSSSSS
Epic: Hey also, customers here are some exclusive games you can only find on our store.
Customers: Ok, sure.
Steam: Here is a card game dudes. Just what you have been asking for all of these years!

STEAM SQUAD: HOW MANY LAUNCHERS IS TOO MANY LAUNCHERS?!

Wow. Just wow.

(By the way, Valve has actually great customer service, they improved a lot on that aspect in the last two years, but I guess that doesn't matter because it doesn't fit your narrative)
 

rodrigolfp

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
1,235
What a pain in the ass to make all this zoo work with comfy couch gamepad-only setup among other things.

This fucking sucks, PC gaming is falling back to dark times.

Comfy couch?
45796805942_31c883d11c_o.jpg
 

BernardoOne

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,289
Customer: Hey Valve, uh could you clean up your storefront? It's not easy to find anything I want to play.
STEAM SQUAD: MY STOREFRONT IS PERFECT. YOU ARE LYING POST SCREENSHOTS OF YOUR STOREFRONT LIAR. YOU ARE USING STEAM INCORRECTLY.
Steam: LOL nah bro. Let's let everyone on here and (bong hit) let the people decide what they want to play.

Customer: Hey Valve, can you hire some actual people to man your customer service?
STEAM SQUAD: MY CUSTOMER SERVICE IS PERFECT.
Steam: Nah, I'm good. The Steam Community is there for you. You guys can help each other. It's cheaper and better for the environment. Can you turn the lights down man?

EA, Ubisoft: HEY GUYZ WE'VE GOT KEWL NEW STOREZ JUST FOR YOU GAMERZ! WHO WANTS TO PLAY PLANTS VS ZOMBIES 2?! hello?
Customers, STEAM SQUAD: LOL
Steam (From behind a bead curtain): What if instead of us making games...the games made cards...that made VR....I gotta lie down

Developers: I would like more money please.
Steam: Uh.....sure. Just sell, like, uh, ten million copies and I'll totally give you more money. (lies back down).
Like 5 Developers: SWEEEETT
The other 9 billion Developers: Uhhh....
STEAM SQUAD: GENEROUS GABEN

Epic: Hey Developers, we are going to give you a better cut than Steam.
Developers: Awesome
Epic: Also, we are going to curate the store a bit so customers aren't bombarded with nonsense if they stray away from the front page.
STEAM SQUAD: HISSSSSSSSSS
Epic: Hey also, customers here are some exclusive games you can only find on our store.
Customers: Ok, sure.
Steam: Here is a card game dudes. Just what you have been asking for all of these years!

STEAM SQUAD: HOW MANY LAUNCHERS IS TOO MANY LAUNCHERS?!
This is a new low in shitposting
 

Gestault

Member
Oct 26, 2017
13,361
Ironically, that's the one area whereby the 12% cut may prove to be a disadvantage: substantially reduced scope for discounts on Epic's end of the equation.

There's a fair number of officially licenced Steam key resellers, such as Voidu and Green Man Gaming, that specialise in discounted games, and I think they way that they can pull these discounts off is through eating into their own margins with the developer and publisher. Hell, that's how Humble does its 10% discount for Humble Monthly members: it comes out of their agreed 25% cut.

Epic can't do that, as they're only getting 12% of the transaction, so they're going to have to rely on convincing developers and/or publishers to lower the game's price, which something that strikes me as pretty difficult.

(Also worth pointing out that, so far, Epic Store games are exclusive to the Epic Store, and there's no plans AFAIK to make keys available so that they can be sold via Humble Bundle, Voidu, Green Man Gaming et al)

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but I'm not under the impression Steam (or any other store) gives up a greater share of its sales cut to allow sales to happen. Short of some minimum operating-cost limit, I don't see how having a particular percentage for a store's share would prevent sales. The sale price is divided among as many entities are channeling that sale.

The idea that it's "safer" to give more of the money to one of the parties, where they allocate it to the others isn't how it really works.
 
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Odesu

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,543
I'm going to go where the actual developers who put out the games get the most of my money and where the store is curated to make sure there isn't racist trash developed by polish right-wing extremists like IS Defense.

The outcry about games being exclusively on Epic's store also seems hypocritical to me. There are countless PC games that are exclusive to steam and aren't available on Uplay, GoG etc. People don't cry foul at that because it's not actually the exclusivity that bothers people, but rather the fact that the exclusivity doesn't target their prefered platform.
 

mutantmagnet

Member
Oct 28, 2017
12,401
I've seen a lot of Epic Store defenders in different threads since last night's TGAs. I'm definitely no "No Steam, No Buy" extremist, and I fully believe from a publisher/developer/consumer standpoint, Valve could use a kick in the ass to battle their own complacency, but I'm starting to wonder how many digital platforms PC gamers are going to have to create, input their personal and billing information into, and maintain before PC gaming just kind of breaks.

In the age of prefilled forms and fingerprint enabled payment systems this is a minor inconvenience. With the rise of Amazon's questionable labor practices I'm already less inclined to buy everything from 1 store than I was 5 years ago.

Buying from a different videogame retailer is no different from buying another online retailer.

This specific argument making a molehill into a mountain.

All of these clients require a client installation, take up a storage and memory footprint, a lot of them even when you quit out of them. All of these, on top of invasive DRM like Denuvo that hinders performance.

Storage is cheap.

CPU utilization isn't and that is a real problem. If they make a client that makes my system perform worse I won't be using their client. Simple as that.



I just wonder what kind of reaction console gamers would have to being treated similarly by these publishers and developers if they had to juggle half a dozen or more digital platforms in order to enjoy their hobby.

I've been a PC gamer since I received a Commodore 64 as a kid while my friends had an NES.

The pc gaming market has improved a lot and in most ways thanks to Valve's efforts.

One of the problems when talking about what Epic is doing is a matter of different definitions being used. What Epic is doing is competitive. What Epic is doing is also anti-consumer. Being competitive isn't inherently pro-consumer.


This isn't unlike what we're seeing in other digital entertainment like movies, TV and music, and while there are constant articles about how fracturing the consumer's ability to see or hear what they want and breaking their wallet in the process, it sounds like PC gamers at large are just expected to take it.


There is one big difference. Other forms of media platform monetize you with ads or a subscription paywall. You don't pay to use launchers. What ads exist on launchers are exactly the ads we want to see because we are at the store, using the launcher to buy and play videogames.

The problems with different launchers come from DRM which you touch onto previously.

In short this specific argument is meaningless because the serious problems with using Hulu, Netflix and HBO Now are all these subscrption fees we have to pay for.
The problems with other forms of entertainment is that the platforms they are on are a persistent and consistent burden.

The burden that comes from DRM is infrequent and random.


I already mentioned in the second part that I would stop using a platform that harms performance. Simple as that.

So when people are looking at the complaining about the Epic Store, know that it's not just about the Epic Store, it's about the merry-go-round that PC gaming is turning into, and it's not getting any better.

Nah. A lot more people aren't taking into account the wider ecosystem than you think.

Origin and Bnet are fine examples of launchers even though one of the two companies sucks in a lot of other ways. Uplay is basketcase even though I view the parent company way more favorably than Valve or EA. Microsoft store is a total shitshow. When someone provides a well made launcher there isn't an issue in having multiple well made launchers. There is a problem when you are feel forced into using a shitty one and at the beginning Steam was shit too. We don't know yet what Epic will be like entirely for the consumer experience.

But if your argument is to hate on an experience only because they made a game exclusive to their store that isn't a compelling enough reason to be concerned or to be put off.
 

Mindman

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
485
One storefront would be nice, but this is a side effect of an open platform. If you want one storefront, you have to go with consoles. (And there isn't anything wrong with that at all.)

I for one welcome Epic's competition to Steam. Devs deserve more of a cut.

I don't get it. PC gamings strength is the incredible versatility of the options. All those choices whether it be hardware, where you buy you games, what peripherals you use, how your system looks.

And yet a wealth of choice in game clients is such a big no no for some people. It's what pc gaming is all about - choice and competition, and it's how things get better.

Here's hoping Epic lights a firecracker up valve's arse

This. Exactly this.
 

Khrol

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,179
Customer: Hey Valve, uh could you clean up your storefront? It's not easy to find anything I want to play.
STEAM SQUAD: MY STOREFRONT IS PERFECT. YOU ARE LYING POST SCREENSHOTS OF YOUR STOREFRONT LIAR. YOU ARE USING STEAM INCORRECTLY.
Steam: LOL nah bro. Let's let everyone on here and (bong hit) let the people decide what they want to play.

Customer: Hey Valve, can you hire some actual people to man your customer service?
STEAM SQUAD: MY CUSTOMER SERVICE IS PERFECT.
Steam: Nah, I'm good. The Steam Community is there for you. You guys can help each other. It's cheaper and better for the environment. Can you turn the lights down man?

EA, Ubisoft: HEY GUYZ WE'VE GOT KEWL NEW STOREZ JUST FOR YOU GAMERZ! WHO WANTS TO PLAY PLANTS VS ZOMBIES 2?! hello?
Customers, STEAM SQUAD: LOL
Steam (From behind a bead curtain): What if instead of us making games...the games made cards...that made VR....I gotta lie down

Developers: I would like more money please.
Steam: Uh.....sure. Just sell, like, uh, ten million copies and I'll totally give you more money. (lies back down).
Like 5 Developers: SWEEEETT
The other 9 billion Developers: Uhhh....
STEAM SQUAD: GENEROUS GABEN

Epic: Hey Developers, we are going to give you a better cut than Steam.
Developers: Awesome
Epic: Also, we are going to curate the store a bit so customers aren't bombarded with nonsense if they stray away from the front page.
STEAM SQUAD: HISSSSSSSSSS
Epic: Hey also, customers here are some exclusive games you can only find on our store.
Customers: Ok, sure.
Steam: Here is a card game dudes. Just what you have been asking for all of these years!

STEAM SQUAD: HOW MANY LAUNCHERS IS TOO MANY LAUNCHERS?!

uhhhh lol
 

Delusibeta

Prophet of Truth
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
5,648
Thank you for spelling this out. I drafted (then chosen to erase) at least two posts today intending to say, overhead cost for publishers is a meaningful part of competition; I've seen an almost dogmatic efforts to argue how undercutting business pricing somehow doesn't count as competition. Obviously the consumer side of that is different, if the libraries are different.

Speaking for myself, it's hard not to come across too terse when saying something that feels so obvious. I think you did it well.
Humble Widget's cut is 5% + payment processing. Selling Steam keys via your own store just costs you payment processing + however much you need to run the store. Hell, selling your own games in .exe form via your own site is payment processing + store running costs + download costs.

There's a reason why both Epic and Discord are reliant on moneyhats for exclusives.
 

Deleted member 2840

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,400
I don't get it. PC gamings strength is the incredible versatility of the options. All those choices whether it be hardware, where you buy you games, what peripherals you use, how your system looks.

And yet a wealth of choice in game clients is such a big no no for some people. It's what pc gaming is all about - choice and competition, and it's how things get better.

Here's hoping Epic lights a firecracker up valve's arse
This was already said again and again and again in other threads but here's just 3 super simple motives why a lot of people are angry at this exclusivity bullshit:

Neither Epic Store nor Bethesda Launcher have regional pricing. That's already telling over 50% of the world population that they don't care about them.
Neither of them have clear refund policies.
Neither of them have any kind of review or community system. Which, for PC-focused stores, is fucking idiotic. Weirdly enough some people act like the lack of those features are positives(?!?!?).

Now tell me, please, for the love of God, why the fuck should I be happy that those games are exclusive to those barebones launchers?
"B-b-b-b-but they may introduce those features later" isn't a reason. If it was, I could simply say "well, Steam may lower their cut, update their client and change their algorithms in the future!", but I don't because it's fucking idiotic to consider things that may happen in the future as positives for using a client now.
 

Skux

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,942
There isn't one, and there shouldn't be.

People are so entrenched in the idea of Steam being the "default" that the idea of a game being exclusive to another platform enrages them. That's the entire point of having competition.

The idea that Epic "stole" their lineup from other platforms is ludicrous. The developers were presented with an offer and agreed to it. They're part of this too. And I would have done the exact same thing if Epic came knocking on my door with a huge wad of cash and the opportunity to be featured next to the most popular game in the world.
 

Deleted member 2785

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,119
Price promotion is just about always funded by the publisher, both digitally and at retail. If you think the digital storefronts regularly eat margin to discount games without partnering you are mistaken.

If anything, the lower % on Epic's store makes deep discounting easier, not harder.
 

Alexandros

Member
Oct 26, 2017
17,811
I see this all the time and it never fails to amuse.
I'm sorry, but YOU don't get to decide or determine what competition is.

Valve most certainly considers Epic Store - and Tencent by extension - as competition. It matters not what we think.

Sure it does. If I think that these companies compete in an anti-consumer way, that is my call to make. It doesn't matter what you or the companies think.
 

Bjones

Member
Oct 30, 2017
5,622
Publishers don't like to lose that 30% so they wait till they think they have something big enough like a Fortnite then throw that store at us.

The funny thing is that I'll just not buy there games on pc so they list that 30 % from me anyway.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,496
5 years ago? (looks up Divinity Original Sin 1 PC release date. 2014, double checks steam purchase history, yep) Not quite 5 years ago, close, too bad they waited right after I had my most recent problem with them to fix it. I did recently learn about their new return policy (probably this year, with a game in the news that I don't remember. Mass returns), doubt it would work for mistaken wallet fund increase, now I'm learning they have an actual dedicated customer support. I still don't want to risk maybe needing them though. I'll find out when I find out.

It's been almost five years then? We're weeks away from 2019. The point I'm making is that things change all the time, and in order to clean up discourse, users need to stop falling back to issues that have long been resolved and complaints rendered irrelevant.
 
Jun 7, 2018
472
If they are going to build launchers, the least they could do is build multiple chat serves into them. I don't need 10 different chat clients.
 

FantaSoda

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,992
There isn't one, and there shouldn't be.

People are so entrenched in the idea of Steam being the "default" that the idea of a game being exclusive to another platform enrages them. That's the entire point of having competition.

The idea that Epic "stole" their lineup from other platforms is ludicrous. The developers were presented with an offer and agreed to it. They're part of this too. And I would have done the exact same thing if Epic came knocking on my door with a huge wad of cash and the opportunity to be featured next to the most popular game in the world.

There is no sense in arguing with them. They are the equivalent of console warriors, but for Steam. Now instead of arguing about consoles, we have devolved into arguing about storefronts. They had no problems with letting customers decide when Steam had every conceivable advantage. Now that a competitor in the space has a clear distinctive advantage in a few aspects now it's too much.
 

BernardoOne

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,289
I don't get it. PC gamings strength is the incredible versatility of the options. All those choices whether it be hardware, where you buy you games, what peripherals you use, how your system looks.

And yet a wealth of choice in game clients is such a big no no for some people. It's what pc gaming is all about - choice and competition, and it's how things get better.

Here's hoping Epic lights a firecracker up valve's arse
Nothing says choice like making a game exclusive to one client, literally erasing all the choice in the process and forcing you to use clients with less features or outright broken

SO MUCH CHOICE
 

spineduke

Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
8,748
Price promotion is just about always funded by the publisher, both digitally and at retail. If you think the digital storefronts regularly eat margin to discount games without partnering you are mistaken.

If anything, the lower % on Epic's store makes deep discounting easier, not harder.

I'm pretty sure thats how Voidu and GMG get away with deeper discounts. We've heard stories of how some devs get upset at how their games are devalued through such strategies.
 

Complicated

Member
Oct 29, 2017
3,338
Just as limiting customer choice extracts value, so does your posts. When you realize you are losing the argument because you have zero knowledge of the subject, you jump to something that has nothing to do with this. Let me guess, MTs and loot boxes are becuz steam is le monopoly?
Nah. No problems with loot boxes or MTs. Prefer Season passes personally. Keep it up though. Ignoring to avoid derailing the thread further.
 

Joffy

Member
Oct 30, 2017
1,153
This was already said again and again and again in other threads but here's just 3 super simple motives why a lot of people are angry at this exclusivity bullshit:

Neither Epic Store nor Bethesda Launcher have regional pricing. That's already telling over 50% of the world population that they don't care about them.
Neither of them have clear refund policies.
Neither of them have any kind of review or community system. Which, for PC-focused stores, is fucking idiotic. Weirdly enough some people act like the lack of those features are positives(?!?!?).

Now tell me, please, for the love of God, why the fuck should I be happy that those games are exclusive to those barebones launchers?
"B-b-b-b-but they may introduce those features later" isn't a reason. If it was, I could simply say "well, Steam may lower their cut, update their client and change their algorithms in the future!", but I don't because it's fucking idiotic to consider things that may happen in the future as positives for using a client now.

I never said the Epic or Bethesda stores were good, I said choice and competition were good.
 

Alexandros

Member
Oct 26, 2017
17,811
Why do some of you think the only customers that are being competed for here are end consumers? The "competition" lens some of you are looking at this with is too narrow.

I think that the answer here is pretty obvious. We care for the end consumer because we are end consumers. What other type of customer should we care about?
 

gofreak

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,736
There is no line.

This is the PC. There's no standard. The beauty of the PC is that developers can decide exactly how they want to sell their game.

I sympathise in the cases where a game was announced for Steam, with Steam features or Steam benefits for example, and then that changed.

But in all other cases, no dev owes anyone anything in terms of what they put in their game or where or how they sell it. No more than you owe them your purchase.

People wanted competition for Steam. Here it is. Thank god the PC is still open enough to allow it. Don't let Steam's heretofore defacto monopoly fool you - the PC is a wild west, and should be. If you want a device with a fixed set of universal rules in terms of platform integrations or seller rules, perhaps it's a console you wanted after all.
 
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Deleted member 10551

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,031
I've seen a lot of Epic Store defenders in different threads since last night's TGAs. I'm definitely no "No Steam, No Buy" extremist, and I fully believe from a publisher/developer/consumer standpoint, Valve could use a kick in the ass to battle their own complacency, but I'm starting to wonder how many digital platforms PC gamers are going to have to create, input their personal and billing information into, and maintain before PC gaming just kind of breaks. All of these clients require a client installation, take up a storage and memory footprint, a lot of them even when you quit out of them. All of these, on top of invasive DRM like Denuvo that hinders performance.

I just wonder what kind of reaction console gamers would have to being treated similarly by these publishers and developers if they had to juggle half a dozen or more digital platforms in order to enjoy their hobby. This isn't unlike what we're seeing in other digital entertainment like movies, TV and music, and while there are constant articles about how fracturing the consumer's ability to see or hear what they want and breaking their wallet in the process, it sounds like PC gamers at large are just expected to take it.

So when people are looking at the complaining about the Epic Store, know that it's not just about the Epic Store, it's about the merry-go-round that PC gaming is turning into, and it's not getting any better.

The fact we had multiple storefronts is the reason PC gamers didn't have to pay to play online, whereas console users do.

I'll take whatever hassles we have now over paying an annual online junk fee. Competition is good.

Also you don't need to run clients you're not using, usually all I'm running is Steam, and they generally take very little resources. Denuvo's a pain, but again not as bad as console DRM or weaker console versions- Tekken takes twice as long to load on console as it does PC even with Denuvo garbage.
 

Splatbang

Member
Oct 26, 2017
488
Austria
I don't really care about how many frontends there are or how many I have to install. I do prefer steam though because it's where I have most games and it's the client all my friends use. I'm casual and most people I know are even more casual to the point where it is really hard to get people to try games that are not f2p. Getting them to install something besides steam is even harder. I'm not a fan of the epic store, simply because it is not on par feature-wise with steam and I don't like the exclusivity thing they have going on. I do have it installed though, because I'm interested in Subnautica, so there's that.
 

Delusibeta

Prophet of Truth
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
5,648
Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but I'm not under the impression Steam gives up a greater share of its sales cut to allow sales to happen. Unless it actually hit some operating-cost limit, I don't see how having a different percentage for their own share would prevent sales.
I was referring to Mat's comments about Epic's need to compete through reducing margin and price, and I was comparing to outlets that compete with Steam and each other on price through reducing margin.

Price promotion is just about always funded by the publisher, both digitally and at retail. If you think the digital storefronts regularly eat margin to discount games without partnering you are mistaken.

If anything, the lower % on Epic's store makes deep discounting easier, not harder.
I've demonstrated one confirmed and two highly speculated counter-examples. Certainly, I can't imagine Sega signing off on 25% off pre-orders for Football Manager 2019.
 

Waaghals

Member
Oct 27, 2017
859
There shouldn't be any limit on storefronts for games. The idea would be ridiculous in any other context.
The people who are "No steam no buy" are delusional, and don't know their own good - Choice is good.

The problem is every publisher locking their games exclusively behind their own store.
This isn't choice, this is the absence of choice.
 

Arulan

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,571
I strongly support a variety of clients and storefronts, but I want a good reason to use them. I want positive competition that allows the player to make a choice.

I use Steam regularly because it's the best gaming platform by far. Just in the past few years, Steam developments have allowed me to embrace Linux as my primary OS, make controllers usable for me thanks to the configuration options of Steam Input, allow me to play games on any display in my home thanks to In-Home Streaming and cheap Steam Link hardware, and created the best VR platform with SteamVR.

GOG gave me a reason to use their storefront from day one. They used their resources to track down the publishing rights to a lot of games not available online, sold them as DRM-free, and pre-configured DOSBOX with them. I also appreciate the additional material included with each game, such as high-res scans of all the material originally included in the box, in addition to some other goodies. I have hundreds of games on GOG now.

The rest usually fall in the useless category. At best they provide a bare-bones client that works, and some can't even manage that. The Microsoft Store is in my opinion a cancer on the platform, and nothing but Microsoft's attempt to shove Xbox and their closed-platform policies onto the PC.

The Epic Store on the other hand is something else. It's not just another useless store/client, but bringing the bullshit of buying exclusives from closed-platforms onto the PC.

There are a lot of concerned console warriors in recent threads that just need to tell us why we should all accept the bullshit they have for years. We won't.
 

Redhood

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 27, 2017
752
I honestly do not mind! As soon as I am done with a game out it goes off my PC along with its launcher.
 
Oct 26, 2017
3,896
I just don't play games that aren't on Steam, I'm not supporting this mess.

The exception is GoG, which I do use for all the older games that are no longer available elsewhere.
 

Deleted member 2840

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,400
I never said the Epic or Bethesda stores were good, I said choice and competition were good.
What's my "choice" if I want to play Ashen or Rage 2?

No, seriously, tell me.
Pay the ABSURDLY overpriced price in USD?
Not have an easy way of knowing how the game is? The port? People's impressions?
Not knowing if I'll be able to refund the game if needed?
Not being able to easily play it and control it with my Xbox controller, while reading guides/talking to friends without even having to get up from my couch?

I mean, sure, those are "options". But don't tell me that those "options" should make me happy.
 

Deleted member 35478

User-requested account closure
Banned
Dec 6, 2017
1,788
At this point, I'd buy a version of Discord that would just organize or launch my games from all the different store front. Open Discord and just deal with that for library management. lol
 

brokenswiftie

Prophet of Truth
Banned
May 30, 2018
2,921
Price promotion is just about always funded by the publisher, both digitally and at retail. If you think the digital storefronts regularly eat margin to discount games without partnering you are mistaken.

If anything, the lower % on Epic's store makes deep discounting easier, not harder.
how do u explain discounts on GMG and Fanatical that go to like 25% for preorders then?
that's because of steam keys generation
that will disappear