Steam has a right-wing extremism/racism problem on their discussion forums that needs to be addressed.

[Pixieking]

That was just an example of what I could see misogynists arguing about. As for the rest of your other post, that was exactly my point: it doesn't happen often in other types of entertainment not because they're not big (on the contrary, they're just as big as games), but because misogynists don't engage in discussions. In gaming, they think they have to participate. Every. Single. Time.

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To come back to this, there is a certain undercurrent of misogyny in films and books consumerism/reviews - dismissing both with "chick flick" and "chick lit" respectively, and the downplaying of the recent wave of erotica that's followed 50 Shades - but is far less toxic than anything in games. No less harmful, though in a different, more insidious, less abusive way.

 

[Pearljam and Earl]

"It's about character development" seems to be the new "It's about ethics in games journalism"…

 

[Lentic]

Gaming in general has this problem, but I've noticed PC gaming in particular tends to draw in lots of elitist assholes. Apparently being able to put together a gaming rig is some people's idea of "superiority"

 

[Mentalist]

But wait.. you consider it toxic if people complained about titanic being focused on romance?

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Off-topic, but I do remember there being some pushback against "di caprio mania" after Titanic came out and Leo became a teenage idol.
It was largely from guys who were saying the movie's shit cause it's just another dumb love story.

This was back in elementary school and before internet was a thing, though.

 

[LaughingGear]

Yeah, it's not fun on the dev side to deal with that stuff. We seem to have flown under the radar for a while now but I remember when our game first came out, we had threads from people accusing of the game of being woke and supporting paedophilia because our game had LGBTQIA2S+ issues and characters in it.

 

[Iztok]

You have to name the problem. There's obviously uproar from some moviegoers every now and then, but they're most often in relation to the nerdiest franchises (Marvel and Star Wars). People don't just get pissed at any random movie for being woke or *checks notes* having black people in it. Or at least nowhere near as often as with video games.

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I'm sorry what, this happens nearly every time for every major movie release, at least for the past decade now.
Add TV/Streaming series to that as well, the "netflix adaptaion" thing is a meme ffs. This is for sure a problem very visible beyond just gaming.

 

[Lashley]

You have to name the problem. There's obviously uproar from some moviegoers every now and then, but they're most often in relation to the nerdiest franchises (Marvel and Star Wars). People don't just get pissed at any random movie for being woke or *checks notes* having black people in it. Or at least nowhere near as often as with video games.

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?

They (sadly) absolutely do.

 

[mattiewheels]

What a thought process. "I'm TOTALLY NOT RACIST, but any game that doesn't have white main characters makes me angry"

 

[krazen]

Thank you for these, I appreciate you and your taking the time to break it down further. Was nice to know I wasn't going crazy lol.

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No biggie, it's just weird to me. Everyone acknowledges it on some level , 'Remember those old Xbox live days' 'Toxic gamers' but when people are like 'hey maybe we should do something' its suddenly something that can be viewers from
a high societal level.

Because "gamers" aren't a thing beyond a description of somebody who plays games as a main hobby. "Moviegoers" have the same problem, chess players have the same problem and so on. Stop trying to tie any ideology or views to people who like to play games. It's going to leave you unnecessarily disappointed.

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Ehh, yeah it's not 'ideology' but obviously you have unique cultural signifiers, mores etc. You have in group slangs and sayings ("Git gud"), behaviors ("GG" after a match.). You make it sound like its passive participation when one of the big issues is that it isn't; since many engage the multiplayer aspect you effectively have this subculture going on. You take a snapshot of a Discord chat and you see a drastically different way of seeing things/topics (even non hobby related) than you would in lets say golf.

Its a bit disingenuous to compare it to moviegoing.

 

[Era of not Yakuza]

it is really hard to find a place to talk about video games without far-right assholes dominating the conversations.

 

[Deleted member 17184]

Yeah, it's not fun on the dev side to deal with that stuff. We seem to have flown under the radar for a while now but I remember when our game first came out, we had threads from people accusing of the game of being woke and supporting paedophilia because our game had LGBTQIA2S+ issues and characters in it.

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I can imagine. It's no wonder a few devs are moving away from the Steam forums and concentrating their efforts elsewhere. Not worth sacrificing your mental health for that.

 

[Bold One]

Also The Quartering should be banned off YouTube.

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The sadness I see in his eyes.

Knowing thus is the only thing you can do make a living.

 

[Stop It]

I mean, that's my experience. Not sure what you want me to say. I'm not saying that every other community on the planet outside of games doesn't have any issues at all, ever. Did that really need clarifying? I'm saying that the prevalent, consistent and virulent nature of how they manifest within games across communities and platforms is distinct. Something that cannot be watered down to 'humans' for the sake of not confronting the issues gaming communities, and gamers, have.

You digging up football out of nowhere to claim I was somehow forgetful of the racist abuse against England players is mind boggling.

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Not only that, but Football has Kick It Out, which is an ongoing campaign against racism.

Nearly every other creative industry has top led initiatives to combat hate, from music having a full review into diversity in the industry https://www.smia.org.uk/news/uk-mus...increase-diversity-within-the-music-industry/ to film industry events being pressured like the Oscars being directly influenced by pressure from within.

What does gaming have? A few messages on launch screens of some games, some kind words, and an almost unmitigated cesspool of a "community" allowed to run riot in nearly every enthustic forum and corner of the industry.

Yes, other fandoms and media types have their issues too, but gaming is unique in the lack of any form of industry effort to do a damned thing about it.

 

[Haint]

Techbro libertarians aren't going to moderate people complaining about woke agendas or "forced diversification/minorities" anymore than Resetera is going to moderate complaints about ciswhite male characters.

 

[Beast780]

It's becoming really hard to skim user reviews for honest reviews when deciding on certain games with POC, LGBTQ, prominent women in it. Has been for a few years.

 

[SatelliteOfLove]

I smell Cernovitch and co. being active.

 

[Dmax3901]

And its disingenous of you to say that oh well i know there are movies that are just as bad but those dont count.

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Not at all what I said but ok.

I'm sorry what, this happens nearly every time for every major movie release, at least for the past decade now.
Add TV/Streaming series to that as well, the "netflix adaptaion" thing is a meme ffs. This is for sure a problem very visible beyond just gaming.

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?

They (sadly) absolutely do.

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I never said that it doesn't, just that it's not as much. But I obviously have no concrete way of proving that so I'm happy to leave it.

 

[Cipherr]

This is IMO the biggest problem with Valve. They have had years to do something about this shit and never have addressed it properly. The steam discussions may as well not exist to me, I refuse to bother with that cesspool outside of dire tech issues with games when I can find nothing anywhere else.

I moderated the old place for years pre implosion. What happened was not that the community became caring, friendly and supportive, the frothing assholes just stopped using slurs basically.

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Damn...

 

[Doskoi Panda]

As much as I think of Steam as being far-and-away the best and most feature-complete gaming platform that exists, the state of the forums IS a big, big problem.

Those forums can be and are incredibly useful for players who need tips and troubleshooting, but it's hard for me to just recommend using Steam Forums to people, because I can't know if they're going to be immediately faced with all of the bullshit on Steam's forums. It's fucking insane to me that a line hasn't been drawn in the sand. I know that Valve seems deathly afraid of igniting controversy but that's no fuckin' excuse and if anything the shit that goes on on Steam forums amounts to controversy just waiting to happen or be exposed.

 

[Atom Heart Mother]

the culture of "ironic racism" and "ironic nazism" is super prevalent when it comes to PC gamers. PC Master Race is a god damn thing that people use it, and it doesn't take a genius to figure out where it came from. It's not uncommon to find profiles littered with swastikas in profile comments, jokes like typing the letter "N" (you can figure it out what it means) or anything in that realm. Not surprised its poorly moderated on Steam game discussions.

 

[Tokyo_Funk]

How come gamers have gotten so vile?

Click to shrink...

 

[Mass Effect]

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you can skip the anonymity step, as we've seen over the last 5 years or so.

 

[Isilia]

It's not really moderated well. If you look at some of the community photos people post, you'll notice all the creepy voyeur shots trying to look up skirts of the games' characters. Every time I booted up Trails of Cold Steel 3, I was reminded of all the "lovely" things about the game and then some.

But I have it easy as a white man. The things my wife has to deal with just playing a game she likes is annoying. She had a dude trying to hit on her bad in FFXIV. As I was standing right next to her.

They have no shame. It is just shown much worse in places like steam forums because the mods don't give a damn or just don't exist. I guess them giving up on the flood of awful is possible as well.

 

[Azai]

arent those forums moderated by the developer or their moderators?
I think they would need to enforce the rules to begin with.
but since every game has better options like discord or reddit they wont put much effort in the steam forums

 

[Tokyo_Funk]

you can skip the anonymity step, as we've seen over the last 5 years or so.

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Sadly, this is true, and they love that they have video platforms to swell their egos and bolster their ranks with.

 

[Don Fluffles]

Pathetic.
I'm just gonna buy it anyway to trigger the fashes.

 

[kaytra]

should be automatic permanent ban. let them lose all access to their games.

 

[Laughing Banana]

we need to ban the promotion of any problematic video games company on this site.

Click to shrink...

Resetera would collapse, lol.

 

[Lord Error]

It wouldn't surprise me if 4chan posters are active on Steam forums. I remember years ago that people from 4chan organized to go and visit Steam's offices to wish Gabe a happy 50th birthday. I thought that was pretty weird even back then.

/v/ celebrating Gaben's 50th birthday

We humbly present our gift to Gaben, lord and savior of vidya (although he had to shell out $2.50 to buy a key in order to open the Mann Co. crate containing...

www.youtube.com

 

[Rickenslacker]

I remember how touted the "feature" of game forums on Steam were when they were noticeably absent elsewhere, but it's been a curse to not make them an opt in aspect for devs that simply don't care to or can't moderate them when the global mods have been found lacking with that duty.

 

[Pixieking]

It's becoming really hard to skim user reviews for honest reviews when deciding on certain games with POC, LGBTQ, prominent women in it. Has been for a few years.

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Though it's rare, the progressive flip-side can and does happen - John Gibson's tweets about the Texas abortion law led to reviews being posted for Tripwire games which were basically "Can't recommend the game when Tripwire's boss hates women".

Not only that, but Football has Kick It Out, which is an ongoing campaign against racism.

Nearly every other creative industry has top led initiatives to combat hate, from music having a full review into diversity in the industry https://www.smia.org.uk/news/uk-mus...increase-diversity-within-the-music-industry/ to film industry events being pressured like the Oscars being directly influenced by pressure from within.

What does gaming have? A few messages on launch screens of some games, some kind words, and an almost unmitigated cesspool of a "community" allowed to run riot in nearly every enthustic forum and corner of the industry.

Yes, other fandoms and media types have their issues too, but gaming is unique in the lack of any form of industry effort to do a damned thing about it.

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Yup, absolutely. Acceptance through inaction has led to this situation in gaming.

 

[.exe]

More moderation for forums is absolutely necessary. And groups just need to be nuked from orbit.

 

[Deleted member 99254]

Isn't the removal of forums and community features the reason why Epic is such a widely celebrated alternative?

https://archive.fo/FWNTH#selection-515.69-515.406

Steam's community and the problems it has incubated isn't just a matter of forums and comment pages within Valve's control, but a network of infected tissue that spreads throughout the platform, its algorithms, its data, and out to other places beyond the firm's control where brigading, trolling and campaigns of abuse are coordinated. Weeding this out of the platform would be insanely hard work, not just technically but in terms of customer relations; it would make Valve itself into the target of all the bad actors who have spent the past few years targeting indie and mid-range developers on the platform, wrecking the livelihoods of many and the personal lives of quite a few.

Click to shrink...

Where were you when Tim Sweeney was right all along?

 

[Pixieking]

Isn't the removal of forums and community features the reason why Epic is such a widely celebrated alternative?

https://archive.fo/FWNTH#selection-515.69-515.406

Where were you when Tim Sweeney was right all along?

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Because it mostly depends on the forum, given the devs/pubs have moderation control over discussions. Some are fantastic, and sometimes provide the only support a game really has (for instance, Epic-timed exclusive games that aren't on Steam yet have Store pages and therefore linked Discussion pages... oh, the irony!). Others are just shit.

The complete removal of these features doesn't help anyone who wants support, but obviously unmoderated pages on the internet are going to be full of shit.

 

[Kyuuji]

Not only that, but Football has Kick It Out, which is an ongoing campaign against racism.

Nearly every other creative industry has top led initiatives to combat hate, from music having a full review into diversity in the industry https://www.smia.org.uk/news/uk-mus...increase-diversity-within-the-music-industry/ to film industry events being pressured like the Oscars being directly influenced by pressure from within.

What does gaming have? A few messages on launch screens of some games, some kind words, and an almost unmitigated cesspool of a "community" allowed to run riot in nearly every enthustic forum and corner of the industry.

Yes, other fandoms and media types have their issues too, but gaming is unique in the lack of any form of industry effort to do a damned thing about it.

Click to shrink...

Great point as well, completely agree.

 

[Catshade]

The least Valve could do is having an 'ignore' feature on their forums. You can ignore games or publishers/developers (to some extent) on the store page, let us ignore some vile people on the community page too.

 

[Alexandros]

I do wonder what will happen once Steam Deck comes out, a device that is likely to be popular with younger audiences, and the issue reaches the mainstream. The second a parent sees their child browsing through nazi flags and racist memes Valve will have a PR shitstorm in their hands. Maybe something like that needs to happen to spur them into action.

 

[GamerJM]

Gamers have always been a largely terrible group, but Steam forums/reviews are bizarrely dominated by rightwing discourse in a way other similar official channels usually aren't. I think it really is because of a lack of moderation on Valve's part.

 

[dskzero]

How come gamers have gotten so vile?

Click to shrink...

The vast majority of gamers have not.

This is a small, very vocal minority that makes a lot of noise. These people need to be contained in their own echo chambers and leave them to rot in there.

It's frankly irritating how much these people can ruin others enjoyment of their hobby. I honestly don't understand why they have this incredibly resistance to anything vaguely unlike what they strictly expect.

 

[cowbanana]

Gamers have always been a largely terrible group.

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No they haven't. A small, loud minority of them are obnoxious racists etc.

Do you even know how many people play video games and never post obnoxious shit online?

 

[Mr.Deadshot]

Steam certainly has a problem with shitty people and the only way I see to solve it, is to crack down harder on these people. Literally having nazi flags in their avatars and group banners should be easy permabans to never be able to post in groups or boards again. There should be no excuse for behaviour like that.

But I don't like the general demonization of the Steam community. Lots of good and helpful people around that provide help, content and guides to pretty much everything in existence.

I also think that Steam reviews are still among the most helpful ones in the whole market because you have to own the game before writing a review. I know there are ways around that (like buy, review, refund), but it's better than most systems out there and I read Steam reviews very often. It's also pretty easy to distinguish honest reviews from reviews with a certain agenda.

 

[War95]

I literally seen a bad review on Phoenix Point saying "Globalist scum". People are really clinically insane

 

[cowbanana]

Steam certainly has a problem with shitty people and the only way I see to solve it, is to crack down harder on these people. Literally having nazi flags in their avatars and group banners should be easy permabans to never be able to post in groups or boards again. There should be no excuse for behaviour like that.

But I don't like the general demonization of the Steam community. Lots of good and helpful people around that provide help, content and guides to pretty much everything in existence.

I also think that Steam reviews are still among the most helpful ones in the whole market because you have to own the game before writing a review. I know there are ways around that (like buy, review, refund), but it's better than most systems out there and I read Steam reviews very often. It's also pretty easy to distinguish honest reviews from reviews with a certain agenda.

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I agree with this. I often use the Steam forums and maybe it's because of the games I play, but apart from the usual small time trolls that pop out for any and all games I don't recognize it as being as bad as the picture painted here. But absolutely moderate and ban anyone spouting racist bullshit or sporting nazi symbols. If these trash people gather in groups it should be even easier to throw them out. Unfortunately anyone can just make a new level 0 zero account and continue being vile...

 

[Mr.Deadshot]

Unfortunately anyone can just make a new level 0 zero account and continue being vile...

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This is also solvable. Posting rights only after a certain time-span and/or products in your account.

 

[Khanimus]

No they haven't. A small, loud minority of them are obnoxious racists etc.

Do you even know how many people play video games and never post obnoxious shit online?

Click to shrink...

This is literally a thread about the ways people of color are alienated from this hobby, these communities, and even the medium. This is not the first thread. It will be far from the last. We repeatedly see how minority groups are consistently shoved aside, abused, and felt entirely othered from engaging with this shit.

And your instinct is go to "NOT ALL #GAMERS!" We've fucking seen this shit all our lives, don't tell me it's just "afew bad apples." The entire fact that this shit is allowed to propagate and not shot through the fucking kneecaps by Steam's moderation is entirely indicative of how this system allows it to propagate. This shit is gonna happen every fucking time brown people and black people are given any spotlight. Because god forbid racist shit come with some fucking consequences!

So yes, fuck gamers.

 

[FrakEarth]

Imagine being so fragile and politically poisoned that the colour, shape and gender of protagonists in videogames upsets you. Imagine getting so bent out of shape about a fucking videogame you feel like you have to post angry bigotry online. Fucking losers.

 

[cowbanana]

This is literally a thread about the ways people of color are alienated from this hobby, these communities, and even the medium. This is not the first thread. It will be far from the last. We repeatedly see how minority groups are consistently shoved aside, abused, and felt entirely othered from engaging with this shit.

And your instinct is go to "NOT ALL #GAMERS!" We've fucking seen this shit all our lives, don't tell me it's just "afew bad apples." The entire fact that this shit is allowed to propagate and not shot through the fucking kneecaps by Steam's moderation is entirely indicative of how this system allows it to propagate. This shit is gonna happen every fucking time brown people and black people are given any spotlight. Because god forbid racist shit come with some fucking consequences!

So yes, fuck gamers.

Click to shrink...

Some day we can have a talk without shitty, swiping generalizations. But apparently not today. I'm not in any way saying that there is no problem, there very much is and something should be done about it.

Saying that all gamers are shit solves absolutely nothing. I'm so tired of this.

Meanwhile I'll go tell my kids, friends and colleagues who all enjoy playing video games that they are shit people.

 

[Kyuuji]

Meanwhile I'll go tell my kids, friends and colleagues who all enjoy playing video games that they are shit people.

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If you hear a woman say that men are garbage in frustration over something do you say you'll run and tell your family and friends who are men that they're trash, or is it just in this instance you're so wilfully obtuse?

Like, you obviously understand that they don't mean every single gamer under the sun is a shit person, so what's the point in hand-wringing over it?

 

[Evolution of Metal]

it is really hard to find a place to talk about video games without far-right assholes dominating the conversations.

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Nah, it only applies to wild-west platforms that have hands-off moderation unless someone voluntary starts moderating or reporting these en masse. Trolls or nazis don't take over platforms that have practical measures against them, or at the very least, they have to hide inside some verified invite-only clan/discord server/community, practically quarantined from the public.

Many other platforms either have active moderation (with many community driven or promoted moderators), or they don't host communties/forums. Moderating costs money directly for support staff, and indirectly because portions of the community will go elsewhere when you ban their communities/accounts.

I do wonder what will happen once Steam Deck comes out, a device that is likely to be popular with younger audiences, and the issue reaches the mainstream. The second a parent sees their child browsing through nazi flags and racist memes Valve will have a PR shitstorm in their hands. Maybe something like that needs to happen to spur them into action.

Click to shrink...

Nothing is going to happen

 

[Jade1962]

You have to name the problem. There's obviously uproar from some moviegoers every now and then, but they're most often in relation to the nerdiest franchises (Marvel and Star Wars). People don't just get pissed at any random movie for being woke or *checks notes* having black people in it. Or at least nowhere near as often as with video games.

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They don't rant about it online but just don't go watch it because it's a "black, girl, gay" movie. He's right it isn't a steam thing it's a society thing. Trust me when I walk into Starbucks or Panera the mood changes and the eyes are on me and my family. White people value white spaces whether they are a well meaning liberal or a hardcore teaparty maga supporter.

I don't know which I prefer the out right racism or the posts struggling to explain why Deathloop, Serena Williams, 21 savage, Travis Scott and others gets so much vitriol on this forum.