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Oct 25, 2017
14,689
Nah, TROS is arguably better than TPM and ROTS, but it's definitely weaker than AOTC. Anyone who disagrees hasn't seen AOTC in years and/or is just parroting online sentiment about how bad that movie is.
I watched AotC again like a week ago and I'd almost rather watch The Room, and I've been telling people it was the bottom of the prequel barrel since 2005 before the internet even agreed with me. I'll watch TRoS 5 times before I watch AotC again once.
You act like you speak with definitive authority but your opinion is definitely not representative of consensus, which is clear from the other replies. Obviously you're free to enjoy what you like and I don't intend to change your mind, but stating it like it's obvious fact and claiming any disagreement is ignorance is a pretty fuckin bold move while going to bat for fuckin AotC
 

El Bombastico

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
36,110
Yeah, I always assumed Palpatine or Dooku just impersonated (or made up) Sifo Dyas to build the clone army. It was only recently that I found out there was an actual Jedi Sifo Dyas who in fact did secretly order a giant clone army because he had a vision.

Just... ugh.

That was a actually the original plan. The Jedi's name was originally "Sido-Dias" aka Darth Sidious in disguise. But Lucas misspelled the name for a later script revision and liked enough to keep because it made a greater sense of mystery.

That's right, Lucas put in some mystery box bullshit with no idea how to resolve it. Sound familiar?
 

BizzyBum

Member
Oct 26, 2017
9,192
New York
I'm sure this has been posted here or seen by everyone but RLM is the best. Their completely defeated and deflated attitude in this video is both sad and hilarious at the same time and it had me laughing at multiple points as they continually bring up the horrid things this movie does:




Man this movie was dogshit.
 

Ryuelli

Member
Oct 26, 2017
15,209
I'm sure this has been posted here or seen by everyone but RLM is the best. Their completely defeated and deflated attitude in this video is both sad and hilarious at the same time and it had me laughing at multiple points as they continually bring up the horrid things this movie does:




Man this movie was dogshit.


I almost never agree with their opinions, but still enjoy watching them. 🤷‍♂️

The movie was great!
 
Oct 31, 2017
12,170
How the film executed it is all that really matters in the end. I guess we have different ideas of what we consider creative... I think the force dyad stuff in TLJ/TROS (everything from the dramatic scenes to the action scenes) were more creative than anything in the prequels plus it was executed incredibly well in both films.

Well, I consider TLJ creative and well-executed.

But I wasn't really talking about creativity in AOTC; I was talking about the story. The particulars of the story end up not making much sense, but the over-arching story I really, really love. I don't think RoS is as well-crafted as 7 and 8, but it definitely feels better put together than 2. However, I find RoS creatively bankrupt in the sense that the writers seemed to think copying story beats automatically makes things cool because it's Star Wars, whereas at least AOTC told a different story, as poorly done as it was.

I'd rather rewatch RoS because it's better-made, but I think AOTC had more potential. End of the day, we got what we got, so AOTC is still the worst film. If this sounds rambling, I can try to rephrase it again, haha.
 

DiipuSurotu

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
53,148
No. All trash or reheated copypasta.
Sequel trilogy went for a bunch of individual crazy alien designs, but there was never a Jawa or an Ewok. Bands of a race of alien.

b1fbsjk.png
 

linkboy

Member
Oct 26, 2017
13,751
Reno
Well, I consider TLJ creative and well-executed.

But I wasn't really talking about creativity in AOTC; I was talking about the story. The particulars of the story end up not making much sense, but the over-arching story I really, really love. I don't think RoS is as well-crafted as 7 and 8, but it definitely feels better put together than 2. However, I find RoS creatively bankrupt in the sense that the writers seemed to think copying story beats automatically makes things cool because it's Star Wars, whereas at least AOTC told a different story, as poorly done as it was.

I'd rather rewatch RoS because it's better-made, but I think AOTC had more potential. End of the day, we got what we got, so AOTC is still the worst film. If this sounds rambling, I can try to rephrase it again, haha.

The overall story arch for all three prequels was freaking fantastic (the novels do a much better job of telling the story then the movies did), it was the execution where Lucas screwed up.
 

Samaritan

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,710
Tacoma, Washington
Before the movie had come out, porgs seemed like the most soulless, "look at our new, cute animal mascot for you to buy merchandise of" thing ever, but then you see TLJ and they're great. Porgs fucking rule.

Yes they're still absolutely a soulless, cute animal mascot for you to buy merchandise of, but they work in that movie so whatevs.
 

Sblargh

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,926
Like, I am a bit obsessed with knowing at what point when making the script someone decided it would be fucking great to go to a place to find a clue to go to a place to find a clue to go to a place to find a clue to go to a place to find a clue to go to a place when the entire fucking point of your movie is resolve the storyline of like 7 different characters, like, let's not give closure to these characters let's go to a place find a dagger and then let's go to a place translate the dagger what what why why why no one stopped this why no one read the script and went uh guys guys like guys what why?
 

Sblargh

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,926
The big yellow slug dude was great, too. They should have given him the role of Lando. I mean literally. Just have a giant yellow slug show up and everyone go "Oh hell, Lando Calrissian!" and Billy Dee Williams just dub him and everything is the same and no one questions it.
 
Oct 27, 2017
3,483
Like, I am a bit obsessed with knowing at what point when making the script someone decided it would be fucking great to go to a place to find a clue to go to a place to find a clue to go to a place to find a clue to go to a place to find a clue to go to a place when the entire fucking point of your movie is resolve the storyline of like 7 different characters, like, let's not give closure to these characters let's go to a place find a dagger and then let's go to a place translate the dagger what what why why why no one stopped this why no one read the script and went uh guys guys like guys what why?
After seeing the first act there must have been someone having a similar reaction to this:
 

Sblargh

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,926
After seeing the first act there must have been someone having a similar reaction to this:


But this I get. Crazy billionaire surrounds himself with starry-eyed people believing the great genius can do no wrong and then just gaslighting themselves into believing everything is fine.
How there is no one in The Disney Corporation with a fancy degree in not fucking up scripts looking at this and going "what what why why guys c'mon why?"
 
Oct 28, 2017
13,691
Watching the RLM review. Entertaining but I don't agree with their assertion that TLJ said that nothing matters and it left JJ and Terrio with nowhere to go.
 
Oct 28, 2017
22,596
Before the movie had come out, porgs seemed like the most soulless, "look at our new, cute animal mascot for you to buy merchandise of" thing ever, but then you see TLJ and they're great. Porgs fucking rule.

Yes they're still absolutely a soulless, cute animal mascot for you to buy merchandise of, but they work in that movie so whatevs.

Execs know how to manipulate audiences. Disney figured it out decades ago. Big eyes and little heads evoke feelings of sympathy because subconsciously they remind us of babies.
 

Sblargh

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,926
Watching the RLM review. Entertaining but I don't agree with their assertion that TLJ said that nothing matters and it left JJ and Terrio with nowhere to go.

This is the weirdest internet take ever. TLJ leave characters in very specific places, but that can go everywhere.

Rey finds out she is nobody, so she can be anything and in the process rejects Kylo because she wants to be a good person.
No one answered the resistance, that is broken and battered, but there is still hope.
Finn stops running and starts believing in a cause.
Poe learns to be a leader.
Leia is losing everyone and her voice is not inspiring anymore, she is learning to let go for the new generation.
Kylo decides he don't need a Palpatine, he doesn't need to be Darth Vader, he doesn't need to be a Skywalker. He can be Kylo Ren, supreme leader, rule everything, not according to the Sith or the Jedi or no one, he has the power, the will and the opportunity to shape the galaxy as he wants.
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The characters are all there, not concluded, but resolved enough in what their places are. Rey is good, Finn is a resistance fighter, Poe is a leader, Leia is the old generation, Kylo is the supreme leader. All you needed to do is bang these action figures one at another. Let the characters themselves create drama and conflict. Let Leia deal with her own mortality after losing Han and Luke. Let Rey figure out what being a Jedi is. Let Poe figure out what being a leader is. Let Finn figure out what he is trying to save. There is so much you could have done. But CHEWBACCA NEEDED HIS FUCKING MEDAL
 

Principate

Member
Oct 31, 2017
11,191
Nah, TROS's ending may be derivative but there's nothing as stupid as "and then Padme died of a broken heart."

Plus Vader yelling NOOOOOOOOO before just, being cool with everything and nodding at the death star construction is very lame.
Nah TroS is pants on head stupid that adds absolutely nothing to the franchise and instead ruins RotJ perfectly good ending.

RotS ending has it's faults but Order 66, Palpatines rise to dominance and fall of the Jedi Order are franchise defining events that have spawned numerous interesting star wars content.

TroS ending however is a creative black hole that passively harms the preceding movies and content while not adding anything.
 

Fj0823

Legendary Duelist
Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,707
Costa Rica
Nah TroS is pants on head stupid that adds absolutely nothing to the franchise and instead ruins RotJ perfectly good ending.

RotS ending has it's faults but Order 66, Palpatines rise to dominance and fall of the Jedi Order are franchise defining events that have spawned numerous interesting star wars content.

TroS ending however is a creative black hole that passively harms the preceding movies and content while not adding anything.

What do you mean? This saga ends in a new direction! Now Rey is the last of the old generstion of Jedi but also the first of the new, and she will take what's she has learned to revive the Jedi Order while avoiding the mistskes of...Ok, I see it now.
 

Serpens007

Well, Tosca isn't for everyone
Moderator
Oct 31, 2017
8,135
Chile
I find that take - "Rian left JJ nowhere to go, he wrote him into a corner" - pretty baffling. TLJ was an open ending, while TFA was the one with the cliffhanger AND a must-follow scene
 

Jangowuzhere

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
1,505
I find that take - "Rian left JJ nowhere to go, he wrote him into a corner" - pretty baffling. TLJ was an open ending, while TFA was the one with the cliffhanger AND a must-follow scene
Exactly. The end of TLJ left things so that the next movie could go anywhere. The next director could do anything with the next movie.

Instead, we somehow ended up with the least creative Star War movie of all time. And it ends up rewriting large sections of the TLJ for no good reason at all. It's really an embarrassing movie. Easily the worst Star Wars film. I've never seen such a lack of vision and creativity on display.
 

Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
53,587
That was a actually the original plan. The Jedi's name was originally "Sido-Dias" aka Darth Sidious in disguise. But Lucas misspelled the name for a later script revision and liked enough to keep because it made a greater sense of mystery.
BWP3QD7.gif


Have force visions ever worked in favor of the people who have them?
There's an entire CW episode about Ahsoka experiencing force visions about an assassination attempt on Padme.
 

YolkFolk

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
5,212
The North, England
Exactly. The end of TLJ left things so that the next movie could go anywhere. The next director could do anything with the next

That's it though isn't it?

The Last Jedi was the 8th episode of 9. It shouldn't have been leaving a clean slate. It should have left people absolutely dying to see the final entry of the Skywalker Saga with several plot lines ending on cliff hangers and with the audience absolutely desperate to find out what will happen next.

Imagine Infinity War finished in a similar way and then they had to write a story from scratch for Endgame. Do you think Endgame would have been anywhere near as anticipated? Of course it wouldn't. The excitement for Endgame came from the plot momentum from Infinity War. The Last Jedi finished with next to no plot momentum going into the final entry in the series and that ultimately helped to kill the potential of TRoS.
 

FFNB

Associate Game Designer
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
6,183
Los Angeles, CA
People are legit hung up on the Emperor having a kid? And a kid that decided having space Hitler as his dad isn't a good look so disowned his Hitler dad a bad thing why? And people are also arguing that he doesn't look older than 30 when in the same film series we have Ewan MacGregor turning into Alec Guinness in the span of 19 years?

Come on, guys. There's being pedantic, and there's being PEDANTIC. Jesus Christ.

At the end of the day, these are still movies aimed at a younger audience, and the focus is going to always be on the protagonists, so going into excruciating detail about the antagonists and their history isn't going to happen. We get just enough meat on the villain bone to establish that they are the villains. It's what made Kylo Ren so interesting of an antagonist, because he was the first Star Wars antagonist in the films to be more than 2 dimensional, black and white evil. Before the prequels, all we knew of Vader is that he was:

ANH: A former Jedi pupil of Obi-Wans who went to the dark side.

ESB: The right hand man of the Emperor (who we also see for the first time in this movie), and Luke Skywalker's father.

ROTJ: Conflicted between his loyalty to the Emperor, and his familial connection with his son. He had given up hope of redemption until Luke's unwavering faith that there was still good in him was the spark that was needed to turn him back to the light, and at the least, reconnect him with the light side of the Force and his son before he died, even if most of the Galaxy will still forever see him as Darth Vader, sociopathic child murderer.

As far as Palpatine goes, I don't find it hard to believe that the Emperor of the Galaxy has groupies. Power is attractive to many people, man or woman. I guarantee there was no shortage of sycophants that would cozy up to Palpatine.

So let's go down that rabbit hole. Emperor Palpatine meets a woman attracted to his power. They hook up (it's not like people don't fuck in the Star Wars universe, we just don't see it on screen). It's also possible that in a universe with hyperdrive travel, he may have gone the IVF route to ensure that his line would continue in some capacity. No actual sex involved.

Anyway, his devotee gets pregnant. And maybe she has a crisis of conscious during or before RoTJ happens, and she takes her child (does TRoS say Rey's father or mother is Palpatine's kid? I can't remember), and she flees Palpatine before he can reclaim his kid. She goes into hiding (not a foreign concept in Star Wars). She raises the kid into adulthood, they meet their spouse, have Rey, raise her on Jakku (maybe her parents were also raised on Jakku, which is why they were junk traders in the same way Luke worked on a moisture farm), then when she's 5 or 6, Palpatine's specter or cultist followers discover that Palpatine's offspring lives, track them to Jakku, and we're off.

Maybe Ochi has no idea they had a kid. Film storytelling and editing, Rey was shouting at a ship that was really, really far away. And since when have Star Wars ships had rearview mirrors? That complaint is so stupid to me. If Ochi was unaware that they had a daughter, he wouldn't be looking for one, let alone a little girl yelling in her little girl voice at a ship that was already in the atmosphere, blasting into space with its engines firing.

There's a lot to criticize about the movie, but the sheer lengths people are going to keep their nerd rage going is a little weird. You don't have to nitpick the movie to death to justify why you dislike it.
 
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Oct 27, 2017
12,344
The idea that the story was closed off with no threads to follow up on is such complete nonsense. It's just that ROS decided to ignore the movie and did it's own thing, resulting in a movie the felt like a second and third film crammed into one.
 

Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
53,587
Episode II not being about the clone wars is one of the biggest missed opportunities. I know the show is good, but would've loved to see it in a movie rather than in between films
The trilogy itself not being about the clone wars is one of the single biggest opportunities in cinema history imo.

he gets pregnant. Maybe she has a crisis of conscious during or before RoTJ happens, and she takes her child (does TRoS say Rey's father or mother is Palpatine's kid? I can't remember), and she flees Palpatine before he can reclaim his kid. She goes into hiding (again, not a foreign concept in Star Wars). She raises the kid into adulthood, they meet their spouse, have Rey, raise her on Jakku (maybe her parents were also raised on Jakku and it's true they were junk traders), then when she's 5 or 6, Palpatine's specter or cultist followers discover that Palpatine's offspring lives, track them to Jakku, and we're off.

Maybe Ochi has no idea they had a kid. Film storytelling and editing, Rey was shouting at a ship that was really, really far away. And since when have Star Wars ships have rearview mirrors? That complaint is so stupid to me. If Ochi was unaware that they had a daughter, he wouldn't be looking for one, let alone a little girl yelling in her little girl voice at a ship that was already in the atmosphere, blasting into space with its engines firing.
You're simultaneously defending the Rey parentage reveal as not an extreme example of poor writing and missing the point of the last film's messages while misremembering the fine details because of how little information is actually provided during what is at the end of the day very long winded exposition.... 👀
 
Oct 27, 2017
12,344
And the funny thing is, the movie could still have been good even if it ignored the previous. That's not the reason it was bad. It was bad because the pacing, editing, and plotting was shit.
 

StormBrute

Member
Oct 26, 2017
264
I don't understand why they didnt just make it 3 hours long.
I don't honestly think that would have had much impact on the movie's problems. Like 60 to 70 percent of the movie is based around fetch quests that don't matter with some tiny character beats thrown in to then be hurriedly resolved.

They didn't need more time, they needed to use the time they had more effectively.
 

Sblargh

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,926
That's it though isn't it?

The Last Jedi was the 8th episode of 9. It shouldn't have been leaving a clean slate. It should have left people absolutely dying to see the final entry of the Skywalker Saga with several plot lines ending on cliff hangers and with the audience absolutely desperate to find out what will happen next.

Imagine Infinity War finished in a similar way and then they had to write a story from scratch for Endgame. Do you think Endgame would have been anywhere near as anticipated? Of course it wouldn't. The excitement for Endgame came from the plot momentum from Infinity War. The Last Jedi finished with next to no plot momentum going into the final entry in the series and that ultimately helped to kill the potential of TRoS.

It's not clean as it is empty.

Kylo is supreme leader. Rey is a Jedi. The resistance is broken, but hopeful (like, all 15 who survived). The first order has free reign to dominate the galaxy since no one answered the resistance's call. Finn is no longer running. Poe is a leader. There was no cliffhanger, but there was character development and the timeline of the universe advanced in a state of things where you can do a showdown between light and dark.

What killed the potential of TRoS was hiring the writer from Batman V. Superman while asking him please don't piss off our toxic fanbase.
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3/4 of the movie is going to the place get the thing setpiece. They didn't needed three hours, they needed not to hire the writer from Batman v. Superman.
 
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