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McScroggz

The Fallen
Jan 11, 2018
5,973
I'm aware I'm in the minority here but I thought elements like Superman Leia, Rey's power progression and Snoke's backstory are all made cleaner with this movie.

Do you place more value on simply things being explained more? Because Snoke is an especially strong example for a lot of people, myself included, in the explanation of something making it worse. Like sure, we now know that Snoke was literally created (and puppeteered?) by Palpatine. But does that knowledge improve his character? For me it completely muddles his character, and the nuts and bolts of why Snoke was created, when he was created, how much autonomy if any he had, why he claimed he wasn't a Sith, why Palpatine has multiple extra Snokes, etc. make the extra information harmful to the trilogy.

This isn't meant as as attack on you, but rather I want to understand the perspective of fans like you.
 

Deleted member 2652

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,434
Do you place more value on simply things being explained more? Because Snoke is an especially strong example for a lot of people, myself included, in the explanation of something making it worse. Like sure, we now know that Snoke was literally created (and puppeteered?) by Palpatine. But does that knowledge improve his character? For me it completely muddles his character, and the nuts and bolts of why Snoke was created, when he was created, how much autonomy if any he had, why he claimed he wasn't a Sith, why Palpatine has multiple extra Snokes, etc. make the extra information harmful to the trilogy.

This isn't meant as as attack on you, but rather I want to understand the perspective of fans like you.
Right. I don't like exposition, which this movie is full of, but even if it didn't have as much you still need a strong framework to pull it off and this is brittle at best.
 
Oct 29, 2017
13,470
Do you place more value on simply things being explained more? Because Snoke is an especially strong example for a lot of people, myself included, in the explanation of something making it worse. Like sure, we now know that Snoke was literally created (and puppeteered?) by Palpatine. But does that knowledge improve his character? For me it completely muddles his character, and the nuts and bolts of why Snoke was created, when he was created, how much autonomy if any he had, why he claimed he wasn't a Sith, why Palpatine has multiple extra Snokes, etc. make the extra information harmful to the trilogy.

This isn't meant as as attack on you, but rather I want to understand the perspective of fans like you.

It's not really all that necessary to learn the answers to many of those questions. What we learned was that Ben was being pulled around and controlled by Palpatine from the beginning via his puppet, Snoke. "I have been every voice you have ever heard inside your head", combined with the knowledge that Snoke was a useful creation of Palpatine, is all we really need to know. We don't need to know when he was created, or how much autonomy he had. If they want to they can go into that in EU content I guess, but it's not necessary.
 

Mik317

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,775
Just saw it. Like Last Jedi.... don't see why people hate it. Thought it was pretty good. It was on fast forward a lot . But my adhd ass liked that lol.

Nothing incredible and very predictable but I enjoyed it. And now to avoid all Star Wars talk forever
 
Oct 27, 2017
3,483
I'm aware I'm in the minority here but I thought elements like Superman Leia, Rey's power progression and Snoke's backstory are all made cleaner with this movie.
Ooo I didn't realise Finn might be Force-sensitive. Makes the 'That's not how the force works" scene even funnier lol
It's telling that you felt Leia's force powers needed an explanation even though it is explicitly and implicitly shown in previous films but also miss TROS hitting you over the head that Finn is force sensitive.
 
Oct 26, 2017
20,440


All of the interviews done by the writers are hyper confused and nonsensical.

How was Leia able to die and bring Ben back but Luke didn't try that... in any of the years of his self-hatred?
 

Ooopsklo

Banned
Aug 20, 2019
1,078
Tlj is the best of the sequels I just wish canto bight was better. Kinda kills half the movie for me. Other half is great
 

Moogle

Top Mog
Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,768
Terrio blaming 'A New Home' on John Williams when it's common practice for his working titles to be changed in the final soundtrack release is poor form and a piss poor excuse. 'Rose's Turn' was Williams' original title for the track 'The Rebellion is Reborn' for example. And he is not creating and naming his score in a vacuum, they are all based on information and footage relayed to him in the first place.
 

Ushojax

Member
Oct 30, 2017
5,927


All of the interviews done by the writers are hyper confused and nonsensical.

How was Leia able to die and bring Ben back but Luke didn't try that... in any of the years of his self-hatred?


She's his mother. We don't need an explanation for why she has a special connection to him. Of course Leia and Han are the ones that get him to turn back, they are his parents.
 

Ralph Bighead

Member
Jan 13, 2018
161
For me personally, I didn't really care about getting a more detailed explanation for how Palpatine created Snoke. He's dead, and the previous movies didn't bother to explain much about him even when he was alive. Any further coverage is just going to bog the movie down with unnecessary exposition.

What did bother me is the lack of explanation for how Palpatine returned. Sure, we get some inferences with a couple lines of dialogue. But because they largely leave it up to imagination, one of the first thoughts I had at the end of the movie is, "What is stopping Sheev from returning again?".

Sure, we at least see this time that his body is obliterated. But because they never establish the parameters of how he survived--or even if he is using his original body--you could just as easily come up with another bullshit reason for why he could revive after TRoS. They needed to at least set some kind of limitations on cloning, Sith magic, or whatever the fuck brought him back.
 

Zen

The Wise Ones
Member
Nov 1, 2017
9,657
For me personally, I didn't really care about getting a more detailed explanation for how Palpatine created Snoke. He's dead, and the previous movies didn't bother to explain much about him even when he was alive. Any further coverage is just going to bog the movie down with unnecessary exposition.

What did bother me is the lack of explanation for how Palpatine returned. Sure, we get some inferences with a couple lines of dialogue. But because they largely leave it up to imagination, one of the first thoughts I had at the end of the movie is, "What is stopping Sheev from returning again?".

Sure, we at least see this time that his body is obliterated. But because they never establish the parameters of how he survived--or even if he is using his original body--you could just as easily come up with another bullshit reason for why he could revive after TRoS. They needed to at least set some kind of limitations on cloning, Sith magic, or whatever the fuck brought him back.
They needed to set limitations on the Force long ago. But since it's an allegory to religion, they can't without making it completely predictable. Personally I think they need to stop focusing on Force users so much and let it be mystical while keeping the magic mumbo jumbo to a backseat.
 

Ushojax

Member
Oct 30, 2017
5,927
For me personally, I didn't really care about getting a more detailed explanation for how Palpatine created Snoke. He's dead, and the previous movies didn't bother to explain much about him even when he was alive. Any further coverage is just going to bog the movie down with unnecessary exposition.

What did bother me is the lack of explanation for how Palpatine returned. Sure, we get some inferences with a couple lines of dialogue. But because they largely leave it up to imagination, one of the first thoughts I had at the end of the movie is, "What is stopping Sheev from returning again?".

Sure, we at least see this time that his body is obliterated. But because they never establish the parameters of how he survived--or even if he is using his original body--you could just as easily come up with another bullshit reason for why he could revive after TRoS. They needed to at least set some kind of limitations on cloning, Sith magic, or whatever the fuck brought him back.

We saw his body get obliterated in ROTJ too, he exploded. Then the Death Star exploded too.

They should never have brought him back in the flesh, it opens up a whole can of worms for the entire franchise. Life and death don't mean anything in this film.
 

mbpm

Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,553
For me personally, I didn't really care about getting a more detailed explanation for how Palpatine created Snoke. He's dead, and the previous movies didn't bother to explain much about him even when he was alive. Any further coverage is just going to bog the movie down with unnecessary exposition.

What did bother me is the lack of explanation for how Palpatine returned. Sure, we get some inferences with a couple lines of dialogue. But because they largely leave it up to imagination, one of the first thoughts I had at the end of the movie is, "What is stopping Sheev from returning again?".

Sure, we at least see this time that his body is obliterated. But because they never establish the parameters of how he survived--or even if he is using his original body--you could just as easily come up with another bullshit reason for why he could revive after TRoS. They needed to at least set some kind of limitations on cloning, Sith magic, or whatever the fuck brought him back.
I hadn't thought of that. Sequel hook? (please no)
 

SMD

Member
Oct 28, 2017
6,341


All of the interviews done by the writers are hyper confused and nonsensical.

How was Leia able to die and bring Ben back but Luke didn't try that... in any of the years of his self-hatred?


This is a proper shitfest, regardless of the box office take Disney are going to hate how much this is pissing people off. They want safe films and this makes The Last Jedi look run of the mill.
 
Oct 26, 2017
20,440
She's his mother. We don't need an explanation for why she has a special connection to him. Of course Leia and Han are the ones that get him to turn back, they are his parents.

Leia deciding to die now instead of dying back before The First Order was a thing is a weird decision strategically then at least.

Her son is now responsible for billions dead.
 

Ushojax

Member
Oct 30, 2017
5,927
Leia deciding to die now instead of dying back before The First Order was a thing is a weird decision strategically then at least.

Her son is now responsible for billions dead.

My understanding is that she intervened this time because Rey was about to die, she sensed Kylo was winning the duel and was about to strike her down. She projected to him to interrupt the duel and make one last attempt to turn him.
 

Moogle

Top Mog
Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,768
The perspective is that Leia force-tricking him good again like a puppet removes his agency in the decision and undermines his redemption arc. Not that his family should've had nothing to do with his feelings on the matter, but it would've been more satisfying had he done the work to get to that point himself and show his growth. It would also give Adam Driver something to do lol
 

mbpm

Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,553
I think it would have been better if she died in the first scene, in some sort of battle. And then the film pauses and opens with them mourning her passing
 

Gustaf

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
14,926
The perspective is that Leia force-tricking him good again like a puppet removes his agency in the decision and undermines his redemption arc. Not that his family should've had nothing to do with his feelings on the matter, but it would've been more satisfying had he done the work to get to that point himself and show his growth. It would also give Adam Driver something to do lol

force tricking?
 

Ushojax

Member
Oct 30, 2017
5,927
The only options were recasting, doing a CG creation monstrosity, or opening the film with her funeral, killing her offscreen.

They could have killed her offscreen and still used their Hollywood magic to have her reach out to him, only as a ghost.

But there were no ideal solutions, it was going to be awkward no matter what. This final film was obviously meant to have Leia as the main secondary character like Han and Luke were previously and that was no longer possible.
 

FFNB

Associate Game Designer
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
6,090
Los Angeles, CA
The wording in TFA is vague enough that I can come up with a number of other explanations for why Luke is still gone.

It wasn't just in the opening crawl though.

Han flat out tells Finn and Rey in The Force Awakens: " He was training a new generation of Jedi. There was nobody else left to do it, so he took the burden on himself. Everything was going great, until... one boy, an apprentice, turned against him, destroyed it all. Luke felt responsible. He just walked away from everything."

There's not much ambiguity there. Did people just not listen to Han's story? He spells it out pretty clearly.

Luke left everything behind because a student of his destroyed it. Rian Johnson picked up that thread, because it's not like he could ignore it. I mean, I guess he could, but that would be shitty writing, and poor characterization of Luke.

I'd like to know what people expected of Luke Skywalker in this new trilogy. That he'd just show up with a laser sword and take on the whole First Order, I imagine.

Rian made Luke a much more layered and 3 dimensional character. I love that. Yeah, there was shell shock from our idealistic image of Luke Skywalker (which RJ smartly works into the story by having Rey be the audience surrogate in terms of her expectation of Luke Skywalker vs the reality). It's a simple "never meet your heroes," but in the end, Luke does become that idealized version that fan girl Rey, and fandom audiences expected to see. It was just done in a more nuanced and satisfying way than a generic as fuck Starkiller Force Unleashed style display of mastery.

Seeing Luke at his lowest point, then triumphing over his demons and guilt is heroic as fuck. It's what makes characters like Peter Parker so fun to watch/read about. Yes, they possess incredible power, but it's their humanity that makes us love them and care about their struggles.

TFA should have prepared us for Luke in TLJ, and in my opinion it did. Han's explanation to Rey and Finn had me more than curious to see how Luke would be portrayed in episode 8 (I knew he wasn't going to show up until the end of TFA, since this trilogy isn't about the old cast, and the opening crawl flat out stated that the thrust of the movie was going to be finding Luke, and that they weren't going to do that at the halfway point of the movie).

This whole trilogy has been great for me, but TLJ is probably my favorite, warts and all. It's handling of Luke though, is one of my favorite elements of the movie. He was still the same Luke to me, just viewed through a different lens. I dug it.
 
Last edited:
Oct 31, 2017
12,070
It wasn't just in the opening crawl though.

Han flat out tells Finn and Rey in The Force Awakens: " He was training a new generation of Jedi. There was nobody else left to do it, so he took the burden on himself. Everything was going great, until... one boy, an apprentice, turned against him, destroyed it all. Luke felt responsible. He just walked away from everything."

There's not much ambiguity there. Did people just not listen to Han's story? He spells it out pretty clearly.

Luke left everything behind because a student of his destroyed it. Rian Johnson picked up that thread, because it's not like he could ignore it. I mean, I guess he could, but that would be shitty writing, and poor characterization of Luke.

I'd like to know what people expected of Luke Skywalker in this new trilogy. That he'd just show up with a laser sword and take on the whole First Order, I imagine.

Rian made Luke a much more oyeres and 3 dimensional character. I love that. Yeah, there was shell shock from our idealistic image of Luke Skywalker (which RJ smartly works into the story by having Rey be the audience surrogate in terms of her expectation of Luke Skywalker vs the reality). It's a simple "never meet your heroes," but in the end, Luke does become that idealized version that fan girl Rey, and fandom audiences expected to see. It was just done in a more nuanced and satisfying way than a generic as fuck Starkiller Force Unleashed style display of mastery.

Seeing Luke at his lowest point, then triumphing over his demons and guilt is heroic as fuck. It's what makes characters like Peter Parker so fun to watch/read about. Yes, they possess incredible power, but it's their humanity that makes us love them and care about their struggles.

TFA should have prepared us for Luke in TLJ, and in my opinion it did. Han's explanation to Rey and Finn had me more than curious to see how Luke would be portrayed in episode 8 (I knew he wasn't going to show up until the end of TFA, since this trilogy isn't about the old cast, and the opening crawl flat out stated that the thrust of the movie was going to be finding Luke, and that they weren't going to do that at the halfway point of the movie).

This whole trilogy has been great for me, but TLJ is probably my favorite, warts and all. It's handling of Luke though, is one of my favorite elements of the movie. He was still the same Luke to me, just viewed through a different lens. I dug it.

What's funny is that, as disappointing as this movie was, I really loved the ST. In fact, 7 and 8 by themselves are a great continuation of what came before, with the most critical acclaim since the OT.

Good shit, overall, though TLJ is easily the best made and even lifts up the prequels imo.
 
Oct 25, 2017
14,647
"One in a million" probably refers to how Holdo's maneuver managed to take out like an entire fleet in the one shot thanks to fortunate positioning of all parties and her ship having an adequate (huge) amount of mass. The stars aligned perfectly for it to be a kill shot to the entire group at once.
Future attempts probably wouldn't be so lucky to be as encompassing. They'd certainly take down some ships but they'd also lose one of theirs, and they have so few left in general at this point that if everyone is suicide bombing, there won't be any resistance left to finish the job on the remaining destroyers.

The mass of their smaller fighters might not even be enough to create the same effect that Holdo's did. An XWing might just cripple a single ship, or less. Maybe they suicide the blockade runner (potentially the biggest ship they still had at this time?) into the sith fleet, but a bunch of death star destroyers are outside that blast cone. Now the galaxy is still just as fucked, but the resistance has now lost its blockade runner. Oh wait but the Raddus was literally 23 times longer than the Tantive 4, so even that blockade runner aint shit in the mass department. I'd expect way less exciting results.

Showing a single death star destroyer taken down by another holdo at the end is much more reasonable than expecting the whole resistance to take down the entire sith fleet that way. The movie acknowledges it as a valid tactic while also not allowing the ending of the movie to turn into a mass suicide.
 

Blader

Member
Oct 27, 2017
26,607
What's the reason they come back to the ship in such a rush before the main ship hyper jumps, other then to be a plot point to have all the ships in one convenient place to be destroyed?

In previous movies, these ships are in defense formations and hyper jump alongside the main cruisers.

Again, it's part of this continuing trend of weird plot devices used to further the story into an over arching plot that doesn't make sense.
The X-Wings retreating into the main ship before they jump to hyperspace doesn't mean the X-Wings themselves lack the ability to jump to hyperspace. I feel confident Rian Johnson did not just forget this fact, particularly since he took care to show Luke's X-Wing on Ach-To -- which could only have gotten had it made its own lightspeed trip.



All of the interviews done by the writers are hyper confused and nonsensical.

How was Leia able to die and bring Ben back but Luke didn't try that... in any of the years of his self-hatred?


"Luke's a Jedi. You're his father." Or mother, rather.

Ben has no love for Luke at all. The last time he saw his uncle he thought he saw a crazed old man trying to kill him in his sleep. He still slightly cares for his mother as he couldn't bring himself to kill her in TLJ when he had the shot. I don't think it's nonsensical to think that parents have a stronger bond to their child than an uncle does to his nephew, particularly in this circumstance.

This is also slightly beside the point, but the whole reason for Luke's self-exile is that he considered his presence a continuing net negative for the galaxy. Why would he try to reach out to Ben when it was his direct personal involvement with Ben that helped create Kylo Ren in the first place? In Luke's mind, intervening only makes things worse, and it was time for different heroes with less blood on their hands to take up the mantle.
 

cognizant

Member
Dec 19, 2017
13,751
It wasn't just in the opening crawl though.

Han flat out tells Finn and Rey in The Force Awakens: " He was training a new generation of Jedi. There was nobody else left to do it, so he took the burden on himself. Everything was going great, until... one boy, an apprentice, turned against him, destroyed it all. Luke felt responsible. He just walked away from everything."

There's not much ambiguity there. Did people just not listen to Han's story? He spells it out pretty clearly.

Luke left everything behind because a student of his destroyed it. Rian Johnson picked up that thread, because it's not like he could ignore it. I mean, I guess he could, but that would be shitty writing, and poor characterization of Luke.

You wrote what I couldn't be bothered in reply to that post lol. Yep, JJ set up the scenario and Rian dealt with it in responsible fashion. Anyone upset at Luke being a grumpy nihilistic hermit should blame JJ not Rian.

We were 8 movies into a genre-defining saga, and it was ripe for a deconstruction, long past time in fact. The 9th movie is slavish to the past in response and is all the worse for it.
 

Deleted member 18944

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
6,944
The X-Wings retreating into the main ship before they jump to hyperspace doesn't mean the X-Wings themselves lack the ability to jump to hyperspace. I feel confident Rian Johnson did not just forget this fact

My point being that by having them land in a rushed sense, you imply that the cruiser cannot jump without the x wings and vice versa because of another factor.

and that factor is plot device. and its a bad one.
 

Blader

Member
Oct 27, 2017
26,607
While I thought TROS could've handled Poe's arc better, I can't think of a worse way to shit on his development from TLJ than having him suggesting that the Resistance kamikaze all their remaining ships into the Sith fleet lol.

It would've been pointless anyway...the Sith fleet spans, what, dozens of Star Destroyers? Hundreds? The Resistance fleet is down to one Tantive IV type and a handful of small fighters. They would've wasted all their ships on just eliminating a fraction of the Sith.

I found all of them interesting, especially on a recent rewatch.
Same, I found the film's pacing way better on rewatch. The way it just constantly builds and ratchets up the tension from when Rey leaves Ach-To all the way to the end is really well done.
 
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