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Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker |OT| Revenge of a Sith (SPOILERS NOW OPEN)

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DiipuSurotu

DiipuSurotu

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Oct 25, 2017
53,148
I hope we get a Disney+ show about how the son of Sheev met his future wife at the Imperial Academy or whatever

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dragonbane

dragonbane

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Oct 26, 2017
4,585
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DiipuSurotu said:
My butthole clenched so hard at that part. What Rey did was way reckless and dangerous
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Lol true. But it was finally a SLOW sequence. Evocative of her TFA intro, showing her relentless conviction and drive. No fast cuts, no quips, just some solid atmospheric stuff and then a solid fight. Finally a single location to catch your breath a bit. The rest solely lacked that with all the frantic cutting.
 
SMD

SMD

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Oct 28, 2017
6,341
Pirate Bae said:
Genuine question, was Luke ever confirmed to be the "chosen one" who brings balance to the Force? Because if not, I think it's Rey.

Yeah, she's not a Skywalker by blood, but by the end of the film, she effectively is one. So the part of the prophecy that says that a member of Anakin's "bloodline" will bring true balance to the Force is fulfilled. Also, she was the one to finally destroy Sheev and the Sith for good, which is something that even Luke wasn't able to accomplish.




Or, you could argue that Ben is the prophesied one, as he is a Skywalker by blood and saved Rey.
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lol you're giving them too much credit by implying there's either consistency or internal logic.
 
Moms_Spaghetti

Moms_Spaghetti

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Oct 27, 2017
858
I saw an interview with J.J. before the movie came out saying there would be a clear plot reason for the reforming of kylo's mask- can someone elaborate? Seemed to me like he reforged it, wore it for a few scenes, had a joke about it with hux, then stopped wearing it... why did he need to wear the mask again? So he could look cool with his buddies for a bit?
 
Xiaomi

Xiaomi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,237
mbpm said:
It reminded me of a scene from Uncharted or some Ubisoft Open World game lol
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It was just... weird. "Hey this dagger has a part we didn't show you before. It lines up with the wreckage." Okay, so how are they going to use that to navigate while inside the 50km or whatever wreck of the Death Star?
 
Rendering...

Rendering...

Member
Oct 30, 2017
19,089
n8 dogg said:
Let me preface this by saying 'Star Wars' fuckin' matters. Does it matter any more or any less than any entertainment that's ever existed? Your Marvel movies, your Dickens novels, your Shakespeares, your Smiths songs, your 'Metal Gear Solids', your 'Garfield Cummy Racer III: Maximum Cumload's? No. They all matter, because they shape people. They inspire, they keep people entertained and believing in something on this shithole of a planet we all live on. Every single piece of art ever, if it's impacted someone, matters.

'Star Wars' is directly responsible for inspiring generations of filmmakers and writers, not to mention the general populace. It inspired my own interest in films, working my gold special edition boxset down to a nub, watching and rewatching and rewatching again and again and again, firstly out of enjoyment for the spectacle and then as a more keenly interested observer, who admired the character work, was astounded by the visuals, was enchanted by the practical work. To this day, it's the best bonding experience I have with my father, who saw the originals as a child; it helps me continue to bond with my older brother, who worked through those VHSs with me; it has been the gateway to watching film for my younger brother, roping him in for screenings of the saga before 'The Force Awakens', leading to his own decision to study film at college. 'Star Wars' changed the fucking industry - hell, the medium. It matters.

Now that my passive-aggressive intro to give some justification as to why I'm so emotionally invested in a series of movies about a bunch of laser swords and wizards accidentally coming close to boning their sisters is over, let's get into it. 'The Rise of Skywalker' is an abomination on almost every single level. By paying too much surface-level reverence to the originals - the films which inspired J.J. Abrams to take all the wrong fucking messages, a director whose only takeaway was the vapid spectacle - , it so fundamentally gets wrong what 'Star Wars' is supposed to be about. In the end, it makes the strongest argument so far that this series should fundamentally not matter; that it should just be a ticking exercise of corporate wants delivered in an utterly soulless manner. It's the McDonalds of movies - an empty, overstuffed and underwhelming experience. It doesn't even have the wild and ultimately misguided grandiosity of the prequels. Is it ever as incompetent a film as they are, in regards to its direction, its acting, its pacing? Probably not. Is it worse, for its absolute lack of desire to do anything interesting or challenging or ambitious? I think so. Fuck me, if you had asked if there was a 'Star Wars' film I am less interested in rewatching than 'Attack of the Clones' a week ago, I'd have laughed in your face.

Abrams' first sojourn into the saga, 'The Force Awakens' makes up for what it lacks in originality by delivering propulsive and engaging action, surrounded by a likeable cast and well-realised (if broad) characters. There's real strength in the movie's first half in particular, as Boyega, Ridley, Driver and Isaac all make for truly endearing characters, and while the charm runs thinner on rewatch, it does a good job of capturing the iconography and energy of the originals.

What's truly unfortunate is Abrams' desire to completely ignore 'The Last Jedi' because… well, because it doesn't adhere to his 'mystery box' style of filmmaking. I am, for lack of a better way of putting it, a fairly big fan of Rian Johnson's entry into the saga. Truth be told, I think it's a fucking masterpiece and the best entry into franchise filmmaking since… well, maybe since 1980's 'The Empire Strikes Back'. It fundamentally understands the power of 'Star Wars' films and its messaging; it's first and foremost an exploration of character over plot - extraordinarily rare in filmmaking of this scope - with each of its main players growing and developing from failure. It's It's a movie of rare, earnest heart, capturing succinctly the lessons 'Star Wars' has taught its viewers through the likes of characters old and new - Johnson does an outstanding job of paying deference to the past, never using characters like Yoda and R2 out of cheap nostalgia, but because they make fundamental sense for the story and characters, as well as expanding upon the mythos and loading up a clean slate for its new cast to follow. I've seen it maybe six, seven times now, and am still left awed by the power of Driver's performance, the beauty in Yoda and Luke's scene, the gorgeous symphonic editing of the battle of Crait and how it majestically ties every character's journey together in emphatic fashion. For all that 'The Last Jedi' has its detractors, I'm at the point now where I just smile and move on; for me, it's the best in the series, and the best made in the series.

Where 'The Last Jedi' kept Rey and Kylo (and to varying degrees, the likes of Luke, Poe and Finn) stuck in a place in order to find themselves, 'The Rise of Skywalker' jettisons its characters around the place in order to find… things. A film so fucking lazy that the item they need to 'find their way' is literally called the Wayfinder, the first 40 minutes or so are the absolute antithesis of the two films before it; where 'TFA' and 'TLJ' have some room to breathe, to elaborate on where each character finds themselves, 'TROS' jumps straight into plot. In fact, for almost its entire running time, all it is is exposition. Every single thing the Emperor says is so that Abrams and Terrio can hear out loud the ideas they've had and trying to clarify the plot make sense (it doesn't). Why, if his chief purpose is for Rey to strike him down and kill him, does he tell her that's exactly what he wants? Because the film cannot think of any other way to articulate what is going on. Think about the way Kylo's behaviour non-verbally hints at his decision to kill Snoke in 'The Last Jedi'; here, Abrams and Terrio are only interested in explicit exposition, because they're so impressed with coming up with shit like 'force dyad' and 'all the Sith live in me' that they didn't think of the ramifications of it making sense both plot-wise and character-wise. I can't think of any one thing that truly develops character in the first half alone (not getting to the fact it botches the one true development it does make).

Poe is back to being arrogant flyboy like in 'TFA' without having remembered any of the lessons he learned from 'TLJ' - and this time he's unlikeable, too; while one could argue his anti-establishment streak rendered him unlikeable in the previous film, it was all good-natured, spanning from his mistrust of an outsider in lieu of Leia, and the film also goes to great pains to point out he is in the wrong. Here, after spending two films apart from Rey, he goes on to treat her like she owes him something, snapping at her from minute one. He's constantly bickering with Finn, reluctant to even hold his hand in a moment of triumph (lest anyone believe there's any credence in the relationship that he and Boyega's charisma hinted at in 'TFA'; there's also allusions to his sexual history with Keri Russell's pointless Zorii Bliss just so they can make that sure)… this is not the leader that Johnson set up at the end of 'TLJ'. Finn is far more underserved here than he is in the previous film; while Boyega's charms proved to be endearing in 'TFA', he was an underwritten character with an potentially ripe past that Abrams and Johnson both chose to ignore. What Johnson did do with him was acknowledge Abrams' choice to move him from self-preservation to Rey-preservation, and then taught him that he can care about a cause bigger than himself and his boner for his new lady friend. The Canto Bight subplot, whatever you think of its execution, is key to this; Finn's morals are called into question when he begins to see that the binary good-and-evil that 'Star Wars' has always had present is not necessarily the truth, and he acknowledges that he has to fight even harder to be a change in the world. Here, he's genuinely a cipher; a good 75% of his lines are spent asking where Rey is, shouting Rey's name, telling people to find Rey, dancing round this mystery that he has to tell Rey something before the film ends with him… not doing so; did Abrams and Terrio just forget that they had made numerous references to this and Poe's inquisitiveness throughout the film, or did they consciously decide to leave it for a spin-off comic? Whether it's 'I love you, Rey!' or, as the film hints towards the end, 'I'm Force-sensitive, Rey!', 'TROS' has absolutely no interest in answering that question, because its so preoccupied with answering all the other questions that Abrams set up without realising he'd have to answer them.

I knew we were in for a bad time when I saw those first three fuckin' words. The dead speak. Cool. Head honcho, main villain, big baddie of the entire saga is back, and we don't know how or when or under what circumstances. Apparently, to hear this message you need to play Fortnite. I cannot think of a single bigger indictment of this movie than the fact a key part of the film is only available in Fortnite; it is more egregious than anything the MCU has ever done. The Emperor's return in itself is a washout; how did he survive? Dominic Monaghan will give you three possible answers and not elaborate on any of them, so pick your own adventure! There's tanks full of Snokes; whatever for? Who cares! The Emperor wants Rey to kill him but she won't and then she does but it doesn't do anything? Okay!

The film is spectacularly lazy; I can't even begin to go into the amount of times it shortcuts, or relies on pre-existing understanding of the saga's imagery or lore to make sense of anything going on. Whether it's Kylo Ren popping up behind Rey every five seconds like he's got a lightspeed tracker hidden up her arse (how did he get off Exogol after being excommunicated from the First Order and left behind by Rey? Who cares, we'll show a TIE Fighter and that's all we need. Better yet, he plunges into the abyss and comes back twenty seconds later because… well, Palpatine did it too?), or the entire first act being a fetch quest for about six different items, or the fake killing-off of numerous characters, which was unconvincing the first time, or the convenience of Lando being at the festival in exactly the same location as them, or the sheer amount of times TIE fighters turn up after the characters arrive somewhere, or Rey doing shit like igniting her new lightsaber just so the audience can go 'ooh yellow lightsaber' despite there being no reason for her to do so, or Kylo seeing Han as a 'memory' because that's the only way they could force Harrison Ford into the film… it's a genuinely negligent movie when it comes to plotting. Things happen because they happen. Nothing happens because a character forces it into being through their actions and where they need to grow into.

So too, is the movie spiteful in its response to 'The Last Jedi'. It sidelines Rose Tico and introduces a new character that does nothing Rose couldn't have, and I think it's almost horrifically explicit how real-life events had an impact on Abrams' decision. It's questionable that the movie casts Naomi Ackie as both potential Finn love interest and relatable character as well as possible Lando daughter based on her race alone (hilarious non-sequiter from Lando setting it up at the end there, because Abrams assumes his audience will put two and two together and say all black people must be related in this film despite Lando not at all hinting at anything to support it), but to ostracise Kelly Marie Tran and make her stare at a computer screen while everyone else is off together, bringing in characters like Jannah solely to ride a horse (despite Rose and Finn riding Fathiers in the previous film) just comes off as pointless for the sake of being so. In fact, almost all of Abrams' new creations are dramatically inert: new annoying robot that offers nothing of BB-8's charm; masked wisecracking love interest for Poe that offers literally nothing, new smarmy First Order officer that cannot say anything other than 'get the navigation working' or 'fire the cannon' or 'order the teriyaki'. Even the much-vaunted Knights of Ren are absolute jobbers who do nothing, say nothing and get defeated without causing one issue in the entire film.

It chooses to retcon Rey's parentage issue by muddying the waters entirely; instead of the message being 'it truly doesn't matter where you come from, anyone can be a hero' that 'TLJ' suggests, it's now 'it doesn't matter where you came from, even if your heritage is a sordid and evil one… oh but that does suggest there is clearly powerful bloodlines that people do come from and the midichlorian count must be off the charts in this one but that's okay if you just adopt some other powerful family's name instead it's okay'. It's a change for the sake of change; instead of following clear dramatic and logical paths to follow, Abrams tries to have his cake and eat it, placating fans and offering mega JJ-patented twists. There's countless spiteful little actions in the film, from Luke's line to Rey about treating lightsabers with respect, to the inert character regressions of Poe and Finn, and most of all, in the depiction of Kylo Ren.

Now, there's a school of thought that says 'Star Wars' is all about redemption. I don't think that's necessarily true: I think it's all about 'hope'. It's the hope that Luke had for his father that drove his character and made him such a hero, and I don't think we needed Vader's turn to the light for that to remain true. Needless to say, I don't think the end of 'Return of the Jedi' is much earned, but I can see why it happens (and we at least don't see Vader kill anyone we truly care about; the closest is blowing up Alderaan, with all its unseen inhabitants, and freezing Han Solo). With Kylo Ren, let's think of what we've seen him do, on-screen:

- 'The Force Awakens' begins with him slaughtering an old man and putting a village to death
- He kills his father, who is of course the most popular character in the saga
- He attempts (and comes pretty fuckin' close) to killing Finn and Rey
- Off-screen, he is given responsibility for burning down the Jedi Temple, slaughtering the fellow padawans, and causing Luke to such despair such is the evil growing inside him to desert
- In 'The Last Jedi', he turns on his master, not to save Rey, but to gain more power for himself
- At Crait, he's fairly desperate for his army to kill the remaining Resistance forces, full of characters we know and love at this point, as well as shoot the Falcon containing Chewbacca and Rey (and a Porg!) out of the sky
- He attempts - numerous times - to kill Luke Skywalker, first by ordering every single gun they have to be fired on him, before attempting to slew him in combat.

This is an evil character, and it is so unbelievably simplistic to imagine he can be redeemed as easily as he is in this film. There's so many interesting possible avenues they could have taken with his character, but they put the mask back on him and close him off to anything even approaching interesting. Not to mention that Adam Driver, possibly on course to be the best actor of his generation giving the best performance of anyone across all eleven of these movies (give-or-take a Hamill in 'TLJ' or Ford in 'ESB') and a man that may well win an Oscar in a month's time, is asked to sell this redemptive arc by not speaking for the last 45 minutes of the fucking movie. I mean it; from the moment he loses sight of his memory of Han, he doesn't say anything. Not one word to justify his change. Nothing to Palpatine. Nothing to Rey. Now, that's not to say that he has to talk to be a good character or an effective actor - some of Driver's best work in the previous two films (I'm thinking specifically when his guns are aimed at Leia or his decision in Snoke's throne room) have been non-verbal. But seriously? The last third of your final movie and you don't let the most interesting character talk? And all he does is kiss Rey, despite that door being closed in his face pretty fuckin' thoroughly in 'The Last Jedi'. None of the change in their relationship comes because Abrams and Terrio can have Rey or Kylo articulate why or how; it happens because it happens.

So where are the positives? C-3PO gets some good lines. Babu Frik is cute. Ridley and Driver do the best with what they have. Beyond that, I'm struggling. It's genuinely the most listless, soulless big movie I can think of in a while. I am no big fan of the MCU (understatement of the century), but comparing it to recent efforts: it has less heart than 'Captain Marvel', less payoff than 'Endgame', less development of character than 'Ant-Man and the fuckin' Wasp'. It just does not feel like 'Star Wars', and ending your film with a binary sunset will not fool me into thinking so.

TLDR: if you like this movie you deserve farts in your eyes
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Stellar write-up. I found myself nodding along with almost every point you made. Your perspective speaks to a deep engagement with this series. It's no wonder TLJ's fidelity to its characters, and to the themes at the heart of Star Wars, resonated with you. When you're a viewer who looks for nuanced storytelling that's always driven by the characters, rather than sterile fan service that senselessly echoes the past, TLJ stands in stark contrast to RoS's hollow artifice and cynical regressions.
 
dragonbane

dragonbane

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,585
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Ausroachman said:
Imagine being a sith follower and having to live in that dark cave for centuries with all that strobe lighting .
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Or you know, the millions of crew (he got from where and feeded them how?) who hid in their ships under the earth until Palpatine makes them all lift up to impress Kylo, then lets them sit there for another week in the air floating before the big rollout
 
Uzumaki Goku

Uzumaki Goku

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
19,279
Palpatine: And I am all the Sith....! Considering we've only seen 5 of them in these movies, I am therefore Palpatine, Darth Maul, Count Dooku, General Grevious and maybe Darth Vader.
 
residentgrigo

residentgrigo

Banned
Oct 30, 2019
3,726
Germany
About the How I met your Palpie show on Disney+. Sheev used to be addicted to speeder races and wanted to go pro as a young adult. At least in the Legends Darth Plagueis. He also writes poetry and owns endless resorts and palaces. Is this how he got her?
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She has an action figure btw! Wow.
slymoore.jpg

Who was this for? WTF?
 
Moms_Spaghetti

Moms_Spaghetti

Member
Oct 27, 2017
858
kurahador said:
Can't wait for the day when Trevorrow reveal the outline of his script it is way better than TROS. And you all like "Forgive us king!!".

Don't forget to give credit to Monster Trucks and Jurassic World trilogy writer as well.
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I would love to see trevarrow's outline. Literally anything would be better than what we got- and trevarrow would at least respect RJ's story choices...
 
Ithil

Ithil

Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,385
residentgrigo said:
About the How I met your Palpie show on Disney+. Sheev used to be addicted to speeder races and wanted to go pro as a young adult. At least in the Legends Darth Plagueis. He also writes poetry and owns endless resorts and palaces. Is this how he got her?
32eba295d43af9dce78dd40a98781a3868da9f4c_hq.jpg

She has an action figure btw! Wow.
slymoore.jpg

Who was this for? WTF?
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George's bank account?
 
Maverick14

Maverick14

Banned
Feb 16, 2019
624
n8 dogg said:
because god forbid we have any real emotional catharsis in this film

one of my favourite bits in TFA is after Han's died and we get that shot of Chewie just sitting there, and he quietly growls and looks forlorn. A whole relationship told in a few seconds. Here, R2 does fuck all until he whips out the back up USB stick
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And Chewie doesn't show any emotion when he finds out Leia died...I see where you are going with this...
 
Einchy

Einchy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
42,659
kurahador said:
Can't wait for the day when Trevorrow reveal the outline of his script it is way better than TROS. And you all like "Forgive us king!!".

Don't forget to give credit to Monster Trucks and Jurassic World trilogy writer as well.
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I doubt he ever does that but I'd love to know what he had planned. We do know JJ used some of his ideas but who know how many.

One thing is for sure, though, his script was probably impossible to shot because of Carrie's passing.
 

Deleted member 176

User requested account closure
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37,160
how crazy is it that in a Galaxy full of different people's and races, everyone always asks for a last name when you introduce yourself with a first name
 
randompasserby

randompasserby

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Apr 17, 2019
1,381
Viridia
Finally got to watch it over the weekend.

I came in blind with only the trailers to base my expectations on and good lord what a mess.
It's like the hollywood version of the stupidest, cheapest, most rushed & most merchandise-driven shounen escalation.
Or maybe the fast food version of Star Wars, it's tasty on it's own, filling, cheap and hits all the right notes of what you're craving at the moment but left you with sinking feeling of guilt and disappointment afterwards.

I dunno man... I'm not even that attached to star wars but whew, what a shame it ends this way. For a mainline trilogy at least, cause they sure as hell gonna milk it dry regardless.

Random thoughts
- I heard the Emperor's laugh in the trailer but what the hell were they thinking just dropping it straight in the opening crawl with no build up whatsoever?
- So, so many of useless shots that only serve to idk sell merch? Srsly what's the point of the Knights of Ren, Dark Rey or Poe's masked old flame?
- Like I said above it hits the right notes for setpieces and emotional moments but unfortunately it a lot of those felt cheapened and unearned because of the pacing
- Groan inducing reveal and twist... Empress Palpatine, were we supposed to be impressed or shocked by that?
 
sphagnum

sphagnum

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
16,058
mbpm said:
The girl was supposed to be Lando's daughter? The way he delivered the lines at the end it seemed like he was hitting on her lol
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Lando was supposed to be on Pasaana looking for his daughter who was kidnapped there by the First Order years before. JJ cut that out for some reason, so now that scene between Lando and Jannah is weird.
 
Dreams-Visions

Dreams-Visions

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
41,368
Miami, FL
n8 dogg said:
Let me preface this by saying 'Star Wars' fuckin' matters. Does it matter any more or any less than any entertainment that's ever existed? Your Marvel movies, your Dickens novels, your Shakespeares, your Smiths songs, your 'Metal Gear Solids', your 'Garfield Cummy Racer III: Maximum Cumload's? No. They all matter, because they shape people. They inspire, they keep people entertained and believing in something on this shithole of a planet we all live on. Every single piece of art ever, if it's impacted someone, matters.

'Star Wars' is directly responsible for inspiring generations of filmmakers and writers, not to mention the general populace. It inspired my own interest in films, working my gold special edition boxset down to a nub, watching and rewatching and rewatching again and again and again, firstly out of enjoyment for the spectacle and then as a more keenly interested observer, who admired the character work, was astounded by the visuals, was enchanted by the practical work. To this day, it's the best bonding experience I have with my father, who saw the originals as a child; it helps me continue to bond with my older brother, who worked through those VHSs with me; it has been the gateway to watching film for my younger brother, roping him in for screenings of the saga before 'The Force Awakens', leading to his own decision to study film at college. 'Star Wars' changed the fucking industry - hell, the medium. It matters.

Now that my passive-aggressive intro to give some justification as to why I'm so emotionally invested in a series of movies about a bunch of laser swords and wizards accidentally coming close to boning their sisters is over, let's get into it. 'The Rise of Skywalker' is an abomination on almost every single level. By paying too much surface-level reverence to the originals - the films which inspired J.J. Abrams to take all the wrong fucking messages, a director whose only takeaway was the vapid spectacle - , it so fundamentally gets wrong what 'Star Wars' is supposed to be about. In the end, it makes the strongest argument so far that this series should fundamentally not matter; that it should just be a ticking exercise of corporate wants delivered in an utterly soulless manner. It's the McDonalds of movies - an empty, overstuffed and underwhelming experience. It doesn't even have the wild and ultimately misguided grandiosity of the prequels. Is it ever as incompetent a film as they are, in regards to its direction, its acting, its pacing? Probably not. Is it worse, for its absolute lack of desire to do anything interesting or challenging or ambitious? I think so. Fuck me, if you had asked if there was a 'Star Wars' film I am less interested in rewatching than 'Attack of the Clones' a week ago, I'd have laughed in your face.

Abrams' first sojourn into the saga, 'The Force Awakens' makes up for what it lacks in originality by delivering propulsive and engaging action, surrounded by a likeable cast and well-realised (if broad) characters. There's real strength in the movie's first half in particular, as Boyega, Ridley, Driver and Isaac all make for truly endearing characters, and while the charm runs thinner on rewatch, it does a good job of capturing the iconography and energy of the originals.

What's truly unfortunate is Abrams' desire to completely ignore 'The Last Jedi' because… well, because it doesn't adhere to his 'mystery box' style of filmmaking. I am, for lack of a better way of putting it, a fairly big fan of Rian Johnson's entry into the saga. Truth be told, I think it's a fucking masterpiece and the best entry into franchise filmmaking since… well, maybe since 1980's 'The Empire Strikes Back'. It fundamentally understands the power of 'Star Wars' films and its messaging; it's first and foremost an exploration of character over plot - extraordinarily rare in filmmaking of this scope - with each of its main players growing and developing from failure. It's It's a movie of rare, earnest heart, capturing succinctly the lessons 'Star Wars' has taught its viewers through the likes of characters old and new - Johnson does an outstanding job of paying deference to the past, never using characters like Yoda and R2 out of cheap nostalgia, but because they make fundamental sense for the story and characters, as well as expanding upon the mythos and loading up a clean slate for its new cast to follow. I've seen it maybe six, seven times now, and am still left awed by the power of Driver's performance, the beauty in Yoda and Luke's scene, the gorgeous symphonic editing of the battle of Crait and how it majestically ties every character's journey together in emphatic fashion. For all that 'The Last Jedi' has its detractors, I'm at the point now where I just smile and move on; for me, it's the best in the series, and the best made in the series.

Where 'The Last Jedi' kept Rey and Kylo (and to varying degrees, the likes of Luke, Poe and Finn) stuck in a place in order to find themselves, 'The Rise of Skywalker' jettisons its characters around the place in order to find… things. A film so fucking lazy that the item they need to 'find their way' is literally called the Wayfinder, the first 40 minutes or so are the absolute antithesis of the two films before it; where 'TFA' and 'TLJ' have some room to breathe, to elaborate on where each character finds themselves, 'TROS' jumps straight into plot. In fact, for almost its entire running time, all it is is exposition. Every single thing the Emperor says is so that Abrams and Terrio can hear out loud the ideas they've had and trying to clarify the plot make sense (it doesn't). Why, if his chief purpose is for Rey to strike him down and kill him, does he tell her that's exactly what he wants? Because the film cannot think of any other way to articulate what is going on. Think about the way Kylo's behaviour non-verbally hints at his decision to kill Snoke in 'The Last Jedi'; here, Abrams and Terrio are only interested in explicit exposition, because they're so impressed with coming up with shit like 'force dyad' and 'all the Sith live in me' that they didn't think of the ramifications of it making sense both plot-wise and character-wise. I can't think of any one thing that truly develops character in the first half alone (not getting to the fact it botches the one true development it does make).

Poe is back to being arrogant flyboy like in 'TFA' without having remembered any of the lessons he learned from 'TLJ' - and this time he's unlikeable, too; while one could argue his anti-establishment streak rendered him unlikeable in the previous film, it was all good-natured, spanning from his mistrust of an outsider in lieu of Leia, and the film also goes to great pains to point out he is in the wrong. Here, after spending two films apart from Rey, he goes on to treat her like she owes him something, snapping at her from minute one. He's constantly bickering with Finn, reluctant to even hold his hand in a moment of triumph (lest anyone believe there's any credence in the relationship that he and Boyega's charisma hinted at in 'TFA'; there's also allusions to his sexual history with Keri Russell's pointless Zorii Bliss just so they can make that sure)… this is not the leader that Johnson set up at the end of 'TLJ'. Finn is far more underserved here than he is in the previous film; while Boyega's charms proved to be endearing in 'TFA', he was an underwritten character with an potentially ripe past that Abrams and Johnson both chose to ignore. What Johnson did do with him was acknowledge Abrams' choice to move him from self-preservation to Rey-preservation, and then taught him that he can care about a cause bigger than himself and his boner for his new lady friend. The Canto Bight subplot, whatever you think of its execution, is key to this; Finn's morals are called into question when he begins to see that the binary good-and-evil that 'Star Wars' has always had present is not necessarily the truth, and he acknowledges that he has to fight even harder to be a change in the world. Here, he's genuinely a cipher; a good 75% of his lines are spent asking where Rey is, shouting Rey's name, telling people to find Rey, dancing round this mystery that he has to tell Rey something before the film ends with him… not doing so; did Abrams and Terrio just forget that they had made numerous references to this and Poe's inquisitiveness throughout the film, or did they consciously decide to leave it for a spin-off comic? Whether it's 'I love you, Rey!' or, as the film hints towards the end, 'I'm Force-sensitive, Rey!', 'TROS' has absolutely no interest in answering that question, because its so preoccupied with answering all the other questions that Abrams set up without realising he'd have to answer them.

I knew we were in for a bad time when I saw those first three fuckin' words. The dead speak. Cool. Head honcho, main villain, big baddie of the entire saga is back, and we don't know how or when or under what circumstances. Apparently, to hear this message you need to play Fortnite. I cannot think of a single bigger indictment of this movie than the fact a key part of the film is only available in Fortnite; it is more egregious than anything the MCU has ever done. The Emperor's return in itself is a washout; how did he survive? Dominic Monaghan will give you three possible answers and not elaborate on any of them, so pick your own adventure! There's tanks full of Snokes; whatever for? Who cares! The Emperor wants Rey to kill him but she won't and then she does but it doesn't do anything? Okay!

The film is spectacularly lazy; I can't even begin to go into the amount of times it shortcuts, or relies on pre-existing understanding of the saga's imagery or lore to make sense of anything going on. Whether it's Kylo Ren popping up behind Rey every five seconds like he's got a lightspeed tracker hidden up her arse (how did he get off Exogol after being excommunicated from the First Order and left behind by Rey? Who cares, we'll show a TIE Fighter and that's all we need. Better yet, he plunges into the abyss and comes back twenty seconds later because… well, Palpatine did it too?), or the entire first act being a fetch quest for about six different items, or the fake killing-off of numerous characters, which was unconvincing the first time, or the convenience of Lando being at the festival in exactly the same location as them, or the sheer amount of times TIE fighters turn up after the characters arrive somewhere, or Rey doing shit like igniting her new lightsaber just so the audience can go 'ooh yellow lightsaber' despite there being no reason for her to do so, or Kylo seeing Han as a 'memory' because that's the only way they could force Harrison Ford into the film… it's a genuinely negligent movie when it comes to plotting. Things happen because they happen. Nothing happens because a character forces it into being through their actions and where they need to grow into.

So too, is the movie spiteful in its response to 'The Last Jedi'. It sidelines Rose Tico and introduces a new character that does nothing Rose couldn't have, and I think it's almost horrifically explicit how real-life events had an impact on Abrams' decision. It's questionable that the movie casts Naomi Ackie as both potential Finn love interest and relatable character as well as possible Lando daughter based on her race alone (hilarious non-sequiter from Lando setting it up at the end there, because Abrams assumes his audience will put two and two together and say all black people must be related in this film despite Lando not at all hinting at anything to support it), but to ostracise Kelly Marie Tran and make her stare at a computer screen while everyone else is off together, bringing in characters like Jannah solely to ride a horse (despite Rose and Finn riding Fathiers in the previous film) just comes off as pointless for the sake of being so. In fact, almost all of Abrams' new creations are dramatically inert: new annoying robot that offers nothing of BB-8's charm; masked wisecracking love interest for Poe that offers literally nothing, new smarmy First Order officer that cannot say anything other than 'get the navigation working' or 'fire the cannon' or 'order the teriyaki'. Even the much-vaunted Knights of Ren are absolute jobbers who do nothing, say nothing and get defeated without causing one issue in the entire film.

It chooses to retcon Rey's parentage issue by muddying the waters entirely; instead of the message being 'it truly doesn't matter where you come from, anyone can be a hero' that 'TLJ' suggests, it's now 'it doesn't matter where you came from, even if your heritage is a sordid and evil one… oh but that does suggest there is clearly powerful bloodlines that people do come from and the midichlorian count must be off the charts in this one but that's okay if you just adopt some other powerful family's name instead it's okay'. It's a change for the sake of change; instead of following clear dramatic and logical paths to follow, Abrams tries to have his cake and eat it, placating fans and offering mega JJ-patented twists. There's countless spiteful little actions in the film, from Luke's line to Rey about treating lightsabers with respect, to the inert character regressions of Poe and Finn, and most of all, in the depiction of Kylo Ren.

Now, there's a school of thought that says 'Star Wars' is all about redemption. I don't think that's necessarily true: I think it's all about 'hope'. It's the hope that Luke had for his father that drove his character and made him such a hero, and I don't think we needed Vader's turn to the light for that to remain true. Needless to say, I don't think the end of 'Return of the Jedi' is much earned, but I can see why it happens (and we at least don't see Vader kill anyone we truly care about; the closest is blowing up Alderaan, with all its unseen inhabitants, and freezing Han Solo). With Kylo Ren, let's think of what we've seen him do, on-screen:

- 'The Force Awakens' begins with him slaughtering an old man and putting a village to death
- He kills his father, who is of course the most popular character in the saga
- He attempts (and comes pretty fuckin' close) to killing Finn and Rey
- Off-screen, he is given responsibility for burning down the Jedi Temple, slaughtering the fellow padawans, and causing Luke to such despair such is the evil growing inside him to desert
- In 'The Last Jedi', he turns on his master, not to save Rey, but to gain more power for himself
- At Crait, he's fairly desperate for his army to kill the remaining Resistance forces, full of characters we know and love at this point, as well as shoot the Falcon containing Chewbacca and Rey (and a Porg!) out of the sky
- He attempts - numerous times - to kill Luke Skywalker, first by ordering every single gun they have to be fired on him, before attempting to slew him in combat.

This is an evil character, and it is so unbelievably simplistic to imagine he can be redeemed as easily as he is in this film. There's so many interesting possible avenues they could have taken with his character, but they put the mask back on him and close him off to anything even approaching interesting. Not to mention that Adam Driver, possibly on course to be the best actor of his generation giving the best performance of anyone across all eleven of these movies (give-or-take a Hamill in 'TLJ' or Ford in 'ESB') and a man that may well win an Oscar in a month's time, is asked to sell this redemptive arc by not speaking for the last 45 minutes of the fucking movie. I mean it; from the moment he loses sight of his memory of Han, he doesn't say anything. Not one word to justify his change. Nothing to Palpatine. Nothing to Rey. Now, that's not to say that he has to talk to be a good character or an effective actor - some of Driver's best work in the previous two films (I'm thinking specifically when his guns are aimed at Leia or his decision in Snoke's throne room) have been non-verbal. But seriously? The last third of your final movie and you don't let the most interesting character talk? And all he does is kiss Rey, despite that door being closed in his face pretty fuckin' thoroughly in 'The Last Jedi'. None of the change in their relationship comes because Abrams and Terrio can have Rey or Kylo articulate why or how; it happens because it happens.

So where are the positives? C-3PO gets some good lines. Babu Frik is cute. Ridley and Driver do the best with what they have. Beyond that, I'm struggling. It's genuinely the most listless, soulless big movie I can think of in a while. I am no big fan of the MCU (understatement of the century), but comparing it to recent efforts: it has less heart than 'Captain Marvel', less payoff than 'Endgame', less development of character than 'Ant-Man and the fuckin' Wasp'. It just does not feel like 'Star Wars', and ending your film with a binary sunset will not fool me into thinking so.

TLDR: if you like this movie you deserve farts in your eyes
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This is a good post. It deserves to be read and fully acknowledged by all.

I like the movie enough (or, found a way to like it after my second watching), mostly because I loved this cast and if the only other emotions I can choose between are bitterness, frustration, and acceptance...I'm going to accept it as it is. TFA was well-acted if a bit disappointing, TLJ is my #2 or #3 in the franchise. TRoS...It's a shallow action movie. Its action is outstanding. Its plot is simple to follow. Its character development is so disappointing, I think something in my brain is actively blocking me from contemplating it for fear that I will just become bitter about it all.

As you, ANH is the stuff my childhood reams were made of. Its journey of not just hope...but of trust, belief and faith continue to resonate. I to this day remember me and my big brother playing with our big Y-Wings and Tie Fighter toys at no older than 7. I can close my eyes and listen to The Last Battle




And I can see every moment in my mind's eye, each masterfully crafted note telling the story even the blind could see. I get chills to this day seeing the conclusion of the trench run. Star Wars let us dream bigger, so Star Wars matters to people like us, maybe moreso than others for whom Star Wars was just one of many "cool movies". But what are we going to do here, you know? We don't have access to another dimension where the original director of E9 actually does it. Or where Rian Johnson does the entire trilogy. All we have is a simple, but fairly spectacular action movie as E9 with lots of frayed edges, lots of unresolved plots, a lot of unsatisfying decisions. The acting performances are still strong for the material they were given to work with. I think for me, it's easier to accept everything when I just think of it as the characters making these decisions, as if there was no director. I don't know how else to describe it, but yea...it's the best I can do to keep from being sad.

You are correct about all of it, though. Star Wars was always about the personal journey of its core characters, how circumstances and events change them. TLJ understood that and moved characters forward in a way that is very much Star Wars. TROS was...I mean it just ignored it all. As you pointed out, the final words Adam Driver spoke in this entire film were to his father on that bridge. After that, his only utterance is "oww" after leaping down and onto that chain at the Sith fortress. It really says it all. But again...I found a way to enjoy it in the same way one might make lemonade from lemons. I hope you can find a way to do the same. Life is better for people like us when Star Wars can continue to tell personal stories of hope and overcoming challenges and pain set to a backdrop of amazing sci fi.

As I've said in this thread before - I really do think JJ needs people like Spielberg as his check/balance. He has a gift when it comes to action and set pieces. Truly. But based on his catalog of movies, he seems incapable of effectively telling personal stories in his works. He would have been a great choice for something like a Marvel movie, but he was a very poor choice for something like Star Wars and it showed a lack of understanding of what Star Wars was. I would have loved to see Rian's character development paired with some of JJ's skill with set pieces and saber combat concepts. Less so with his space combat because I didn't think JJ's space warfare was good in either TFA or TROS.

Anyway, well stated.
 
Ether_Snake

Ether_Snake

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
11,306
So now people are hating on TFA Poe saying he was arrogant, to justify his crappy plot in TLJ.

I loved Benicio del Toro's DJ in The Last Jedi. Does he come back?
Daisy Ridley: Oh, I don't think so. He did his stuttering thing and … disappeared. But he taught us a good lesson — bad guys and good guys are buying ammunition.
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Everyone had to learn... to valuable lesson!
 

Deleted member 42055

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Apr 12, 2018
11,215
Maverick14 said:
Mate...I have no problem with people not liking the film...but I have posted too many times in this thread about criticism that is about someone misinterpreting or putting their own interpretation of the film..the latest is that Palpatine's master plan for all time was to turn Rey into a Sith so why did Snoke try to kill her? But there are others...the message on the dagger clearly tells you were you need to stand but people didn't hear C3PO say that so that's considered lame...and on and on it goes.. it is frankly exhausting
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That's all perfectly fine and fair to be honest. I'm just saying there's a lot more that one could have a go at this film for than the stuff you are listing, which honestly had no real bearing on my enjoyment of it. I am not a big "lore" guy at all, if a film is a good film I can forgive a lot even if it's stuffed with nonsensical things. I don't think this film Is nearly well-made enough to make up for the nonsense. I want to wager that pretty much everyone would agree that this desperately needed another year in the oven
 
Treestump

Treestump

Member
Mar 28, 2018
8,364
JB1981 said:
A family member of mine just got out of the movie saying, "Ending was awesome. Humongous improvement on Broom Boy."

Ughh
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I really liked the ending to this movie, as cheesy as it is, but I find it so bizarre how people still don't like or misunderstand the ending to TLJ, which is a great one itself.
 
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