Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker |OT| Revenge of a Sith (SPOILERS NOW OPEN)

[Fj0823]

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When the punchline of a parody video gives Rose a better role than this movie...

 

[dragonbane]

is asked to sell this redemptive arc by not speaking for the last 45 minutes of the fucking movie. I mean it; from the moment he loses sight of his memory of Han, he doesn't say anything. Not one word to justify his change. Nothing to Palpatine. Nothing to Rey.

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Oh god you are right lol. I didn't even think of that. Kylo's last line of dialogue in the whole saga is literally "Dad" and that's it. Nothing else for the rest of the film. How sad

 

[DorkLord54]

The girl was supposed to be Lando's daughter? The way he delivered the lines at the end it seemed like he was hitting on her lol

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Disney saw how many views PornHub got from incest vids.

 

[IcyInferno]

In my own head canon, Snoke clones were clones of Darth Plagueis the Wise that he has been cloning for a long time. Always have a backup plan...

 

[Pirate Bae]

Genuine question, was Luke ever confirmed to be the "chosen one" who brings balance to the Force? Because if not, I think it's Rey.

Yeah, she's not a Skywalker by blood, but by the end of the film, she effectively is one. So the part of the prophecy that says that a member of Anakin's "bloodline" will bring true balance to the Force is fulfilled. Also, she was the one to finally destroy Sheev and the Sith for good, which is something that even Luke wasn't able to accomplish.




Or, you could argue that Ben is the prophesied one, as he is a Skywalker by blood and saved Rey.

 

[roflwaffles]

Let me preface this by saying 'Star Wars' fuckin' matters. Does it matter any more or any less than any entertainment that's ever existed? Your Marvel movies, your Dickens novels, your Shakespeares, your Smiths songs, your 'Metal Gear Solids', your 'Garfield Cummy Racer III: Maximum Cumload's? No. They all matter, because they shape people. They inspire, they keep people entertained and believing in something on this shithole of a planet we all live on. Every single piece of art ever, if it's impacted someone, matters.

'Star Wars' is directly responsible for inspiring generations of filmmakers and writers, not to mention the general populace. It inspired my own interest in films, working my gold special edition boxset down to a nub, watching and rewatching and rewatching again and again and again, firstly out of enjoyment for the spectacle and then as a more keenly interested observer, who admired the character work, was astounded by the visuals, was enchanted by the practical work. To this day, it's the best bonding experience I have with my father, who saw the originals as a child; it helps me continue to bond with my older brother, who worked through those VHSs with me; it has been the gateway to watching film for my younger brother, roping him in for screenings of the saga before 'The Force Awakens', leading to his own decision to study film at college. 'Star Wars' changed the fucking industry - hell, the medium. It matters.

Now that my passive-aggressive intro to give some justification as to why I'm so emotionally invested in a series of movies about a bunch of laser swords and wizards accidentally coming close to boning their sisters is over, let's get into it. 'The Rise of Skywalker' is an abomination on almost every single level. By paying too much surface-level reverence to the originals - the films which inspired J.J. Abrams to take all the wrong fucking messages, a director whose only takeaway was the vapid spectacle - , it so fundamentally gets wrong what 'Star Wars' is supposed to be about. In the end, it makes the strongest argument so far that this series should fundamentally not matter; that it should just be a ticking exercise of corporate wants delivered in an utterly soulless manner. It's the McDonalds of movies - an empty, overstuffed and underwhelming experience. It doesn't even have the wild and ultimately misguided grandiosity of the prequels. Is it ever as incompetent a film as they are, in regards to its direction, its acting, its pacing? Probably not. Is it worse, for its absolute lack of desire to do anything interesting or challenging or ambitious? I think so. Fuck me, if you had asked if there was a 'Star Wars' film I am less interested in rewatching than 'Attack of the Clones' a week ago, I'd have laughed in your face.

Abrams' first sojourn into the saga, 'The Force Awakens' makes up for what it lacks in originality by delivering propulsive and engaging action, surrounded by a likeable cast and well-realised (if broad) characters. There's real strength in the movie's first half in particular, as Boyega, Ridley, Driver and Isaac all make for truly endearing characters, and while the charm runs thinner on rewatch, it does a good job of capturing the iconography and energy of the originals.

What's truly unfortunate is Abrams' desire to completely ignore 'The Last Jedi' because… well, because it doesn't adhere to his 'mystery box' style of filmmaking. I am, for lack of a better way of putting it, a fairly big fan of Rian Johnson's entry into the saga. Truth be told, I think it's a fucking masterpiece and the best entry into franchise filmmaking since… well, maybe since 1980's 'The Empire Strikes Back'. It fundamentally understands the power of 'Star Wars' films and its messaging; it's first and foremost an exploration of character over plot - extraordinarily rare in filmmaking of this scope - with each of its main players growing and developing from failure. It's It's a movie of rare, earnest heart, capturing succinctly the lessons 'Star Wars' has taught its viewers through the likes of characters old and new - Johnson does an outstanding job of paying deference to the past, never using characters like Yoda and R2 out of cheap nostalgia, but because they make fundamental sense for the story and characters, as well as expanding upon the mythos and loading up a clean slate for its new cast to follow. I've seen it maybe six, seven times now, and am still left awed by the power of Driver's performance, the beauty in Yoda and Luke's scene, the gorgeous symphonic editing of the battle of Crait and how it majestically ties every character's journey together in emphatic fashion. For all that 'The Last Jedi' has its detractors, I'm at the point now where I just smile and move on; for me, it's the best in the series, and the best made in the series.

Where 'The Last Jedi' kept Rey and Kylo (and to varying degrees, the likes of Luke, Poe and Finn) stuck in a place in order to find themselves, 'The Rise of Skywalker' jettisons its characters around the place in order to find… things. A film so fucking lazy that the item they need to 'find their way' is literally called the Wayfinder, the first 40 minutes or so are the absolute antithesis of the two films before it; where 'TFA' and 'TLJ' have some room to breathe, to elaborate on where each character finds themselves, 'TROS' jumps straight into plot. In fact, for almost its entire running time, all it is is exposition. Every single thing the Emperor says is so that Abrams and Terrio can hear out loud the ideas they've had and trying to clarify the plot make sense (it doesn't). Why, if his chief purpose is for Rey to strike him down and kill him, does he tell her that's exactly what he wants? Because the film cannot think of any other way to articulate what is going on. Think about the way Kylo's behaviour non-verbally hints at his decision to kill Snoke in 'The Last Jedi'; here, Abrams and Terrio are only interested in explicit exposition, because they're so impressed with coming up with shit like 'force dyad' and 'all the Sith live in me' that they didn't think of the ramifications of it making sense both plot-wise and character-wise. I can't think of any one thing that truly develops character in the first half alone (not getting to the fact it botches the one true development it does make).

Poe is back to being arrogant flyboy like in 'TFA' without having remembered any of the lessons he learned from 'TLJ' - and this time he's unlikeable, too; while one could argue his anti-establishment streak rendered him unlikeable in the previous film, it was all good-natured, spanning from his mistrust of an outsider in lieu of Leia, and the film also goes to great pains to point out he is in the wrong. Here, after spending two films apart from Rey, he goes on to treat her like she owes him something, snapping at her from minute one. He's constantly bickering with Finn, reluctant to even hold his hand in a moment of triumph (lest anyone believe there's any credence in the relationship that he and Boyega's charisma hinted at in 'TFA'; there's also allusions to his sexual history with Keri Russell's pointless Zorii Bliss just so they can make that sure)… this is not the leader that Johnson set up at the end of 'TLJ'. Finn is far more underserved here than he is in the previous film; while Boyega's charms proved to be endearing in 'TFA', he was an underwritten character with an potentially ripe past that Abrams and Johnson both chose to ignore. What Johnson did do with him was acknowledge Abrams' choice to move him from self-preservation to Rey-preservation, and then taught him that he can care about a cause bigger than himself and his boner for his new lady friend. The Canto Bight subplot, whatever you think of its execution, is key to this; Finn's morals are called into question when he begins to see that the binary good-and-evil that 'Star Wars' has always had present is not necessarily the truth, and he acknowledges that he has to fight even harder to be a change in the world. Here, he's genuinely a cipher; a good 75% of his lines are spent asking where Rey is, shouting Rey's name, telling people to find Rey, dancing round this mystery that he has to tell Rey something before the film ends with him… not doing so; did Abrams and Terrio just forget that they had made numerous references to this and Poe's inquisitiveness throughout the film, or did they consciously decide to leave it for a spin-off comic? Whether it's 'I love you, Rey!' or, as the film hints towards the end, 'I'm Force-sensitive, Rey!', 'TROS' has absolutely no interest in answering that question, because its so preoccupied with answering all the other questions that Abrams set up without realising he'd have to answer them.

I knew we were in for a bad time when I saw those first three fuckin' words. The dead speak. Cool. Head honcho, main villain, big baddie of the entire saga is back, and we don't know how or when or under what circumstances. Apparently, to hear this message you need to play Fortnite. I cannot think of a single bigger indictment of this movie than the fact a key part of the film is only available in Fortnite; it is more egregious than anything the MCU has ever done. The Emperor's return in itself is a washout; how did he survive? Dominic Monaghan will give you three possible answers and not elaborate on any of them, so pick your own adventure! There's tanks full of Snokes; whatever for? Who cares! The Emperor wants Rey to kill him but she won't and then she does but it doesn't do anything? Okay!

The film is spectacularly lazy; I can't even begin to go into the amount of times it shortcuts, or relies on pre-existing understanding of the saga's imagery or lore to make sense of anything going on. Whether it's Kylo Ren popping up behind Rey every five seconds like he's got a lightspeed tracker hidden up her arse (how did he get off Exogol after being excommunicated from the First Order and left behind by Rey? Who cares, we'll show a TIE Fighter and that's all we need. Better yet, he plunges into the abyss and comes back twenty seconds later because… well, Palpatine did it too?), or the entire first act being a fetch quest for about six different items, or the fake killing-off of numerous characters, which was unconvincing the first time, or the convenience of Lando being at the festival in exactly the same location as them, or the sheer amount of times TIE fighters turn up after the characters arrive somewhere, or Rey doing shit like igniting her new lightsaber just so the audience can go 'ooh yellow lightsaber' despite there being no reason for her to do so, or Kylo seeing Han as a 'memory' because that's the only way they could force Harrison Ford into the film… it's a genuinely negligent movie when it comes to plotting. Things happen because they happen. Nothing happens because a character forces it into being through their actions and where they need to grow into.

So too, is the movie spiteful in its response to 'The Last Jedi'. It sidelines Rose Tico and introduces a new character that does nothing Rose couldn't have, and I think it's almost horrifically explicit how real-life events had an impact on Abrams' decision. It's questionable that the movie casts Naomi Ackie as both potential Finn love interest and relatable character as well as possible Lando daughter based on her race alone (hilarious non-sequiter from Lando setting it up at the end there, because Abrams assumes his audience will put two and two together and say all black people must be related in this film despite Lando not at all hinting at anything to support it), but to ostracise Kelly Marie Tran and make her stare at a computer screen while everyone else is off together, bringing in characters like Jannah solely to ride a horse (despite Rose and Finn riding Fathiers in the previous film) just comes off as pointless for the sake of being so. In fact, almost all of Abrams' new creations are dramatically inert: new annoying robot that offers nothing of BB-8's charm; masked wisecracking love interest for Poe that offers literally nothing, new smarmy First Order officer that cannot say anything other than 'get the navigation working' or 'fire the cannon' or 'order the teriyaki'. Even the much-vaunted Knights of Ren are absolute jobbers who do nothing, say nothing and get defeated without causing one issue in the entire film.

It chooses to retcon Rey's parentage issue by muddying the waters entirely; instead of the message being 'it truly doesn't matter where you come from, anyone can be a hero' that 'TLJ' suggests, it's now 'it doesn't matter where you came from, even if your heritage is a sordid and evil one… oh but that does suggest there is clearly powerful bloodlines that people do come from and the midichlorian count must be off the charts in this one but that's okay if you just adopt some other powerful family's name instead it's okay'. It's a change for the sake of change; instead of following clear dramatic and logical paths to follow, Abrams tries to have his cake and eat it, placating fans and offering mega JJ-patented twists. There's countless spiteful little actions in the film, from Luke's line to Rey about treating lightsabers with respect, to the inert character regressions of Poe and Finn, and most of all, in the depiction of Kylo Ren.

Now, there's a school of thought that says 'Star Wars' is all about redemption. I don't think that's necessarily true: I think it's all about 'hope'. It's the hope that Luke had for his father that drove his character and made him such a hero, and I don't think we needed Vader's turn to the light for that to remain true. Needless to say, I don't think the end of 'Return of the Jedi' is much earned, but I can see why it happens (and we at least don't see Vader kill anyone we truly care about; the closest is blowing up Alderaan, with all its unseen inhabitants, and freezing Han Solo). With Kylo Ren, let's think of what we've seen him do, on-screen:

- 'The Force Awakens' begins with him slaughtering an old man and putting a village to death
- He kills his father, who is of course the most popular character in the saga
- He attempts (and comes pretty fuckin' close) to killing Finn and Rey
- Off-screen, he is given responsibility for burning down the Jedi Temple, slaughtering the fellow padawans, and causing Luke to such despair such is the evil growing inside him to desert
- In 'The Last Jedi', he turns on his master, not to save Rey, but to gain more power for himself
- At Crait, he's fairly desperate for his army to kill the remaining Resistance forces, full of characters we know and love at this point, as well as shoot the Falcon containing Chewbacca and Rey (and a Porg!) out of the sky
- He attempts - numerous times - to kill Luke Skywalker, first by ordering every single gun they have to be fired on him, before attempting to slew him in combat.

This is an evil character, and it is so unbelievably simplistic to imagine he can be redeemed as easily as he is in this film. There's so many interesting possible avenues they could have taken with his character, but they put the mask back on him and close him off to anything even approaching interesting. Not to mention that Adam Driver, possibly on course to be the best actor of his generation giving the best performance of anyone across all eleven of these movies (give-or-take a Hamill in 'TLJ' or Ford in 'ESB') and a man that may well win an Oscar in a month's time, is asked to sell this redemptive arc by not speaking for the last 45 minutes of the fucking movie. I mean it; from the moment he loses sight of his memory of Han, he doesn't say anything. Not one word to justify his change. Nothing to Palpatine. Nothing to Rey. Now, that's not to say that he has to talk to be a good character or an effective actor - some of Driver's best work in the previous two films (I'm thinking specifically when his guns are aimed at Leia or his decision in Snoke's throne room) have been non-verbal. But seriously? The last third of your final movie and you don't let the most interesting character talk? And all he does is kiss Rey, despite that door being closed in his face pretty fuckin' thoroughly in 'The Last Jedi'. None of the change in their relationship comes because Abrams and Terrio can have Rey or Kylo articulate why or how; it happens because it happens.

So where are the positives? C-3PO gets some good lines. Babu Frik is cute. Ridley and Driver do the best with what they have. Beyond that, I'm struggling. It's genuinely the most listless, soulless big movie I can think of in a while. I am no big fan of the MCU (understatement of the century), but comparing it to recent efforts: it has less heart than 'Captain Marvel', less payoff than 'Endgame', less development of character than 'Ant-Man and the fuckin' Wasp'. It just does not feel like 'Star Wars', and ending your film with a binary sunset will not fool me into thinking so.

TLDR: if you like this movie you deserve farts in your eyes

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I like this guy

 

[ItWasMeantToBe19]

Totally agree. Why couldn't Lucas show some damn restraint?


This is Star Wars. Both can be true at the same time!

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Game of Thrones and Star Wars: Two franchises where aunt fucking is hugely critical to the finale.

 

[DiipuSurotu]

I liked him in every scene except when he's yelling "come on Chewie" , smiling and having the time of his life as the world is burning around him and Finn and Jannah are about to be crushed by a destroyer. Why does EVERYTHING in JJ's movies need to be "delightful"??

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And Wedge goes "Nice flying, Lando!" after his stepson just died

 

[Christine]

Oh god you are right lol. I didn't even think of that. Kylo's last line of dialogue in the whole saga is literally "Dad" and that's it. Nothing else for the rest of the film. How sad

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not quite

he says "ow"

 

[ViewtifulJC]

The Sith Dagger that orchi had that just so happened to show the way to the wayfinder which shows the way to Palpatine if you stand on a certain place in a certain direction and hold the dagger at a certain angle

THAT was amazing

 

[Psittacus]

The idea that Palpatine fathered a son while the Emperor is really disturbing and I hope we never find out any of the details

 

[DorkLord54]

Genuine question, was Luke ever confirmed to be the "chosen one" who brings balance to the Force? Because if not, I think it's Rey.

Yeah, she's not a Skywalker by blood, but by the end of the film, she effectively is one. So the part of the prophecy that says that a member of Anakin's "bloodline" will bring true balance to the Force is fulfilled. Also, she was the one to finally destroy Sheev and the Sith for good, which is something that even Luke wasn't able to accomplish.




Or, you could argue that Ben is the prophesied one, as he is a Skywalker by blood and saved Rey.

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I think the penultimate ep of Rebels S3 implied it when Obi-Wan and Maul spoke as the latter was dying.

 

[Maverick14]

Your own personal anecdote doesn't represent the collective group of fans. Its cinema score is the lowest of the entire franchise. It isnt just super fans who are unhappy with what this movie did. Nor is most criticism nit picking.

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Critics hated the Greatest Showman even more than ROS and it stayed in theatres for 6 months..and its music was a smash hit.you are right..my personal anecdote is not representative...let's see how the film does and how people feel about it a year from now...my prediction is that people's opinions will get more positive as time passes...but let's see...

 

[Netherscourge]

So was Han a Force-Ghost or just Kylo's last thread of sanity snapping?

 

[Deleted member 21339]

That whole sequence from her entering the DS2 to Kylo meeting Han is the best part of the film tbh

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I agree.

 

[DorkLord54]

So was Han a Force-Ghost or just Kylo's last thread of sanity snapping?

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He explicitly says he's a memory, and the illusion concurs.

 

[Hot Priest]

Let me preface this by saying 'Star Wars' fuckin' matters. Does it matter any more or any less than any entertainment that's ever existed? Your Marvel movies, your Dickens novels, your Shakespeares, your Smiths songs, your 'Metal Gear Solids', your 'Garfield Cummy Racer III: Maximum Cumload's? No. They all matter, because they shape people. They inspire, they keep people entertained and believing in something on this shithole of a planet we all live on. Every single piece of art ever, if it's impacted someone, matters.

'Star Wars' is directly responsible for inspiring generations of filmmakers and writers, not to mention the general populace. It inspired my own interest in films, working my gold special edition boxset down to a nub, watching and rewatching and rewatching again and again and again, firstly out of enjoyment for the spectacle and then as a more keenly interested observer, who admired the character work, was astounded by the visuals, was enchanted by the practical work. To this day, it's the best bonding experience I have with my father, who saw the originals as a child; it helps me continue to bond with my older brother, who worked through those VHSs with me; it has been the gateway to watching film for my younger brother, roping him in for screenings of the saga before 'The Force Awakens', leading to his own decision to study film at college. 'Star Wars' changed the fucking industry - hell, the medium. It matters.

Now that my passive-aggressive intro to give some justification as to why I'm so emotionally invested in a series of movies about a bunch of laser swords and wizards accidentally coming close to boning their sisters is over, let's get into it. 'The Rise of Skywalker' is an abomination on almost every single level. By paying too much surface-level reverence to the originals - the films which inspired J.J. Abrams to take all the wrong fucking messages, a director whose only takeaway was the vapid spectacle - , it so fundamentally gets wrong what 'Star Wars' is supposed to be about. In the end, it makes the strongest argument so far that this series should fundamentally not matter; that it should just be a ticking exercise of corporate wants delivered in an utterly soulless manner. It's the McDonalds of movies - an empty, overstuffed and underwhelming experience. It doesn't even have the wild and ultimately misguided grandiosity of the prequels. Is it ever as incompetent a film as they are, in regards to its direction, its acting, its pacing? Probably not. Is it worse, for its absolute lack of desire to do anything interesting or challenging or ambitious? I think so. Fuck me, if you had asked if there was a 'Star Wars' film I am less interested in rewatching than 'Attack of the Clones' a week ago, I'd have laughed in your face.

Abrams' first sojourn into the saga, 'The Force Awakens' makes up for what it lacks in originality by delivering propulsive and engaging action, surrounded by a likeable cast and well-realised (if broad) characters. There's real strength in the movie's first half in particular, as Boyega, Ridley, Driver and Isaac all make for truly endearing characters, and while the charm runs thinner on rewatch, it does a good job of capturing the iconography and energy of the originals.

What's truly unfortunate is Abrams' desire to completely ignore 'The Last Jedi' because… well, because it doesn't adhere to his 'mystery box' style of filmmaking. I am, for lack of a better way of putting it, a fairly big fan of Rian Johnson's entry into the saga. Truth be told, I think it's a fucking masterpiece and the best entry into franchise filmmaking since… well, maybe since 1980's 'The Empire Strikes Back'. It fundamentally understands the power of 'Star Wars' films and its messaging; it's first and foremost an exploration of character over plot - extraordinarily rare in filmmaking of this scope - with each of its main players growing and developing from failure. It's It's a movie of rare, earnest heart, capturing succinctly the lessons 'Star Wars' has taught its viewers through the likes of characters old and new - Johnson does an outstanding job of paying deference to the past, never using characters like Yoda and R2 out of cheap nostalgia, but because they make fundamental sense for the story and characters, as well as expanding upon the mythos and loading up a clean slate for its new cast to follow. I've seen it maybe six, seven times now, and am still left awed by the power of Driver's performance, the beauty in Yoda and Luke's scene, the gorgeous symphonic editing of the battle of Crait and how it majestically ties every character's journey together in emphatic fashion. For all that 'The Last Jedi' has its detractors, I'm at the point now where I just smile and move on; for me, it's the best in the series, and the best made in the series.

Where 'The Last Jedi' kept Rey and Kylo (and to varying degrees, the likes of Luke, Poe and Finn) stuck in a place in order to find themselves, 'The Rise of Skywalker' jettisons its characters around the place in order to find… things. A film so fucking lazy that the item they need to 'find their way' is literally called the Wayfinder, the first 40 minutes or so are the absolute antithesis of the two films before it; where 'TFA' and 'TLJ' have some room to breathe, to elaborate on where each character finds themselves, 'TROS' jumps straight into plot. In fact, for almost its entire running time, all it is is exposition. Every single thing the Emperor says is so that Abrams and Terrio can hear out loud the ideas they've had and trying to clarify the plot make sense (it doesn't). Why, if his chief purpose is for Rey to strike him down and kill him, does he tell her that's exactly what he wants? Because the film cannot think of any other way to articulate what is going on. Think about the way Kylo's behaviour non-verbally hints at his decision to kill Snoke in 'The Last Jedi'; here, Abrams and Terrio are only interested in explicit exposition, because they're so impressed with coming up with shit like 'force dyad' and 'all the Sith live in me' that they didn't think of the ramifications of it making sense both plot-wise and character-wise. I can't think of any one thing that truly develops character in the first half alone (not getting to the fact it botches the one true development it does make).

Poe is back to being arrogant flyboy like in 'TFA' without having remembered any of the lessons he learned from 'TLJ' - and this time he's unlikeable, too; while one could argue his anti-establishment streak rendered him unlikeable in the previous film, it was all good-natured, spanning from his mistrust of an outsider in lieu of Leia, and the film also goes to great pains to point out he is in the wrong. Here, after spending two films apart from Rey, he goes on to treat her like she owes him something, snapping at her from minute one. He's constantly bickering with Finn, reluctant to even hold his hand in a moment of triumph (lest anyone believe there's any credence in the relationship that he and Boyega's charisma hinted at in 'TFA'; there's also allusions to his sexual history with Keri Russell's pointless Zorii Bliss just so they can make that sure)… this is not the leader that Johnson set up at the end of 'TLJ'. Finn is far more underserved here than he is in the previous film; while Boyega's charms proved to be endearing in 'TFA', he was an underwritten character with an potentially ripe past that Abrams and Johnson both chose to ignore. What Johnson did do with him was acknowledge Abrams' choice to move him from self-preservation to Rey-preservation, and then taught him that he can care about a cause bigger than himself and his boner for his new lady friend. The Canto Bight subplot, whatever you think of its execution, is key to this; Finn's morals are called into question when he begins to see that the binary good-and-evil that 'Star Wars' has always had present is not necessarily the truth, and he acknowledges that he has to fight even harder to be a change in the world. Here, he's genuinely a cipher; a good 75% of his lines are spent asking where Rey is, shouting Rey's name, telling people to find Rey, dancing round this mystery that he has to tell Rey something before the film ends with him… not doing so; did Abrams and Terrio just forget that they had made numerous references to this and Poe's inquisitiveness throughout the film, or did they consciously decide to leave it for a spin-off comic? Whether it's 'I love you, Rey!' or, as the film hints towards the end, 'I'm Force-sensitive, Rey!', 'TROS' has absolutely no interest in answering that question, because its so preoccupied with answering all the other questions that Abrams set up without realising he'd have to answer them.

I knew we were in for a bad time when I saw those first three fuckin' words. The dead speak. Cool. Head honcho, main villain, big baddie of the entire saga is back, and we don't know how or when or under what circumstances. Apparently, to hear this message you need to play Fortnite. I cannot think of a single bigger indictment of this movie than the fact a key part of the film is only available in Fortnite; it is more egregious than anything the MCU has ever done. The Emperor's return in itself is a washout; how did he survive? Dominic Monaghan will give you three possible answers and not elaborate on any of them, so pick your own adventure! There's tanks full of Snokes; whatever for? Who cares! The Emperor wants Rey to kill him but she won't and then she does but it doesn't do anything? Okay!

The film is spectacularly lazy; I can't even begin to go into the amount of times it shortcuts, or relies on pre-existing understanding of the saga's imagery or lore to make sense of anything going on. Whether it's Kylo Ren popping up behind Rey every five seconds like he's got a lightspeed tracker hidden up her arse (how did he get off Exogol after being excommunicated from the First Order and left behind by Rey? Who cares, we'll show a TIE Fighter and that's all we need. Better yet, he plunges into the abyss and comes back twenty seconds later because… well, Palpatine did it too?), or the entire first act being a fetch quest for about six different items, or the fake killing-off of numerous characters, which was unconvincing the first time, or the convenience of Lando being at the festival in exactly the same location as them, or the sheer amount of times TIE fighters turn up after the characters arrive somewhere, or Rey doing shit like igniting her new lightsaber just so the audience can go 'ooh yellow lightsaber' despite there being no reason for her to do so, or Kylo seeing Han as a 'memory' because that's the only way they could force Harrison Ford into the film… it's a genuinely negligent movie when it comes to plotting. Things happen because they happen. Nothing happens because a character forces it into being through their actions and where they need to grow into.

So too, is the movie spiteful in its response to 'The Last Jedi'. It sidelines Rose Tico and introduces a new character that does nothing Rose couldn't have, and I think it's almost horrifically explicit how real-life events had an impact on Abrams' decision. It's questionable that the movie casts Naomi Ackie as both potential Finn love interest and relatable character as well as possible Lando daughter based on her race alone (hilarious non-sequiter from Lando setting it up at the end there, because Abrams assumes his audience will put two and two together and say all black people must be related in this film despite Lando not at all hinting at anything to support it), but to ostracise Kelly Marie Tran and make her stare at a computer screen while everyone else is off together, bringing in characters like Jannah solely to ride a horse (despite Rose and Finn riding Fathiers in the previous film) just comes off as pointless for the sake of being so. In fact, almost all of Abrams' new creations are dramatically inert: new annoying robot that offers nothing of BB-8's charm; masked wisecracking love interest for Poe that offers literally nothing, new smarmy First Order officer that cannot say anything other than 'get the navigation working' or 'fire the cannon' or 'order the teriyaki'. Even the much-vaunted Knights of Ren are absolute jobbers who do nothing, say nothing and get defeated without causing one issue in the entire film.

It chooses to retcon Rey's parentage issue by muddying the waters entirely; instead of the message being 'it truly doesn't matter where you come from, anyone can be a hero' that 'TLJ' suggests, it's now 'it doesn't matter where you came from, even if your heritage is a sordid and evil one… oh but that does suggest there is clearly powerful bloodlines that people do come from and the midichlorian count must be off the charts in this one but that's okay if you just adopt some other powerful family's name instead it's okay'. It's a change for the sake of change; instead of following clear dramatic and logical paths to follow, Abrams tries to have his cake and eat it, placating fans and offering mega JJ-patented twists. There's countless spiteful little actions in the film, from Luke's line to Rey about treating lightsabers with respect, to the inert character regressions of Poe and Finn, and most of all, in the depiction of Kylo Ren.

Now, there's a school of thought that says 'Star Wars' is all about redemption. I don't think that's necessarily true: I think it's all about 'hope'. It's the hope that Luke had for his father that drove his character and made him such a hero, and I don't think we needed Vader's turn to the light for that to remain true. Needless to say, I don't think the end of 'Return of the Jedi' is much earned, but I can see why it happens (and we at least don't see Vader kill anyone we truly care about; the closest is blowing up Alderaan, with all its unseen inhabitants, and freezing Han Solo). With Kylo Ren, let's think of what we've seen him do, on-screen:

- 'The Force Awakens' begins with him slaughtering an old man and putting a village to death
- He kills his father, who is of course the most popular character in the saga
- He attempts (and comes pretty fuckin' close) to killing Finn and Rey
- Off-screen, he is given responsibility for burning down the Jedi Temple, slaughtering the fellow padawans, and causing Luke to such despair such is the evil growing inside him to desert
- In 'The Last Jedi', he turns on his master, not to save Rey, but to gain more power for himself
- At Crait, he's fairly desperate for his army to kill the remaining Resistance forces, full of characters we know and love at this point, as well as shoot the Falcon containing Chewbacca and Rey (and a Porg!) out of the sky
- He attempts - numerous times - to kill Luke Skywalker, first by ordering every single gun they have to be fired on him, before attempting to slew him in combat.

This is an evil character, and it is so unbelievably simplistic to imagine he can be redeemed as easily as he is in this film. There's so many interesting possible avenues they could have taken with his character, but they put the mask back on him and close him off to anything even approaching interesting. Not to mention that Adam Driver, possibly on course to be the best actor of his generation giving the best performance of anyone across all eleven of these movies (give-or-take a Hamill in 'TLJ' or Ford in 'ESB') and a man that may well win an Oscar in a month's time, is asked to sell this redemptive arc by not speaking for the last 45 minutes of the fucking movie. I mean it; from the moment he loses sight of his memory of Han, he doesn't say anything. Not one word to justify his change. Nothing to Palpatine. Nothing to Rey. Now, that's not to say that he has to talk to be a good character or an effective actor - some of Driver's best work in the previous two films (I'm thinking specifically when his guns are aimed at Leia or his decision in Snoke's throne room) have been non-verbal. But seriously? The last third of your final movie and you don't let the most interesting character talk? And all he does is kiss Rey, despite that door being closed in his face pretty fuckin' thoroughly in 'The Last Jedi'. None of the change in their relationship comes because Abrams and Terrio can have Rey or Kylo articulate why or how; it happens because it happens.

So where are the positives? C-3PO gets some good lines. Babu Frik is cute. Ridley and Driver do the best with what they have. Beyond that, I'm struggling. It's genuinely the most listless, soulless big movie I can think of in a while. I am no big fan of the MCU (understatement of the century), but comparing it to recent efforts: it has less heart than 'Captain Marvel', less payoff than 'Endgame', less development of character than 'Ant-Man and the fuckin' Wasp'. It just does not feel like 'Star Wars', and ending your film with a binary sunset will not fool me into thinking so.

TLDR: if you like this movie you deserve farts in your eyes

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Wonderful post

 

[Deleted member 176]

The Sith Dagger that orchi had that just so happened to show the way to the wayfinder which shows the way to Palpatine if you stand on a certain place in a certain direction and hold the dagger at a certain angle

THAT was amazing

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lmao she moved it like she was trying to line it up with something and then was like "perfect" outta nowhere

 

[residentgrigo]

I feel your pain n8 dogg. This movie woke me up last night to give me explosive diarrhea Era!
I slept for about 4 hours while dreaming of delivering TROS in Death Stranding, there is a lot to unpack here, I then jumped out of bed at 5 am to have a true Darth Plagueiss of a session on the toilet with cold sweats, crushing pain and everything for 20 minutes. I then went back to bed and immediately passed out for over 9 hours. My system is such a mess that it is about strike 2 am right and I already feel that I don´t need sleep till the next night so I am here typing away my pain about this film. JJ broke me...

 

[jviggy43]

Yeah, I feel this. I'm definitely going to be out of these threads now because this is just one more argument I disagree with from people who liked it. Again, that's fine, but there's really no discussion to be had here . Some people just really really wanted a drunken Star Wars toybox fantasy and they got it, and no level or amount of legit critique will lessen their effusive praise

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Yeah. I'm happy they got what they wanted but having to keep trying to bring up arguments that mitigate the criticisms from those who didn't enjoy is beyond silly. People just need to have their opinion validated.

 

[Netherscourge]

I thought they were going to turn 3PO into Data from Star Trek with the memory wipe.

 

[IcyInferno]

False...his first plan is for Kylo Ren to take over (probably under his control or as his apprentice) after he kills Rey but "the Alderan princess' pituful intervention", squashes that plan and he goes with turning Rey into a Sith as he clearly tells his General before instructing him to blow up a planet..I have read so many partial and incorrect readings of parts of the film I think people didn't like it because they erased key parts of dialogue from their minds as they watched it...it's the only explanation...

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Yeah I think at first he wanted Rey alive when she was just a girl and before he lost sight of her. But then he wanted to kill Rey (through Snoke and Kylo) once he learned she was learning to be a Jedi and could be a threat to him.... just like how he wanted to kill the Son of Skywalker in Empire before Vader convinces him to turn Luke instead. Then he wanted Rey alive again with the princess of Alderaan altering his plans.

 

[ViewtifulJC]

lmao she moved it like she was trying to line it up with something and then was like "perfect" outta nowhere

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I thought that mothafucka was gonna glow up like when the Sun hit the medallion in Raiders of the Lost Ark

Nope, she just kinda moved to the right, stopped, knife didn't line up with anything, and said "yep, that's it."

 

[Ryuelli]

Yeah. I'm happy they got what they wanted but having to keep trying to bring up arguments that mitigate the criticisms from those who didn't enjoy is beyond silly. People just need to have their opinion validated.

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The opposite is just as true though. It's fine that you didn't enjoy it, but you don't need to rain on the parade of those who did.

 

[DiipuSurotu]

That whole sequence from her entering the DS2 to Kylo meeting Han is the best part of the film tbh

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My butthole clenched so hard at that part. What Rey did was way reckless and dangerous

 

[BossAttack]

So is there no lore master in charge of anything to tell JJ that Palp was Anikin's dad?

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What's funny is that JJ said the Plagieus scene was his favorite scene from the prequels. I guess he forgot the scene spells out that Sheev created Anakin.

 

[Xiaomi]

And Wedge goes "Nice flying, Lando!" after his stepson just died

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To be fair, everyone in the ST treated Snap Wexley with either annoyance or complete indifference. It's his only notable character trait.

 

[n8 dogg]

The Sith Dagger that orchi had that just so happened to show the way to the wayfinder which shows the way to Palpatine if you stand on a certain place in a certain direction and hold the dagger at a certain angle

THAT was amazing

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in the exact place rey happened to be standing too

I mean
is she the mary sue of compass and orienteering too

 

[Ithil]

I thought they were going to turn 3PO into Data from Star Trek with the memory wipe.

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I don't understand why they reversed it. It's the last movie he's going to be in, after nine episodes with 3PO. Let him "die" without dying.

 

[Deleted member 176]

I thought that mothafucka was gonna glow up like when the Sun hit the medallion in Raiders of the Lost Ark

Nope, she just kinda moved to the right, stopped, knife didn't line up with anything, and said "yep, that's it."

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I would have forgiven the ancient sith dagger that was stolen before the end of Jedi saying "go to Palpatine's room at the blown up second death star on Ebdor'" if it had at least glowed a bit smh

 

[residentgrigo]

Annie is the Chosen One Pirate Bae: https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Chosen_One

He killed Palps in ROTJ. It´s now arguably Rey and George´s SW arc is basically buried under endless sand. I hate sand.
I have things to say about Tatooine being chosen as the resting place of the Skywalker(s) lightsabers. It bought nothing but misery for Annie and his mom, Luke and his family and even Leia (cough sexual enslavement cough).

 

[ViewtifulJC]

Worst moment in the film is easily the Holdo maneuver lines IMO.

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They damn near said "What about the Last Jedi?" "No, FUCK that movie."

 

[Maverick14]

Yeah, I feel this. I'm definitely going to be out of these threads now because this is just one more argument I disagree with from people who liked it. Again, that's fine, but there's really no discussion to be had here . Some people just really really wanted a drunken Star Wars toybox fantasy and they got it, and no level or amount of legit critique will lessen their effusive praise

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Mate...I have no problem with people not liking the film...but I have posted too many times in this thread about criticism that is about someone misinterpreting or putting their own interpretation of the film..the latest is that Palpatine's master plan for all time was to turn Rey into a Sith so why did Snoke try to kill her? But there are others...the message on the dagger clearly tells you were you need to stand but people didn't hear C3PO say that so that's considered lame...and on and on it goes.. it is frankly exhausting

 

[Thornton Reed]

So Finn has the force?

 

[n8 dogg]

I don't understand why they reversed it. It's the last movie he's going to be in, after nine episodes with 3PO. Let him "die" without dying.

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because god forbid we have any real emotional catharsis in this film

one of my favourite bits in TFA is after Han's died and we get that shot of Chewie just sitting there, and he quietly growls and looks forlorn. A whole relationship told in a few seconds. Here, R2 does fuck all until he whips out the back up USB stick

 

[Deleted member 2145]

The Sith Dagger that orchi had that just so happened to show the way to the wayfinder which shows the way to Palpatine if you stand on a certain place in a certain direction and hold the dagger at a certain angle

THAT was amazing

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it's like the rat bringing out ant-man except without the self awareness of how dumb it is

 

[spad3]

Except for Sheev.

Even more proof that Sith>Jedi.

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Han: Smashed
Leia: Smashed
Lando: Smashed
Luke: ......
Mace Windu: .......
Yoda: ............
Obi-Wan: .........
Qui-Gon: .........
Jar-Jar: ..........
Padme: Smashed
Chewbacca: ........
Rey: .......
Finn: .........
Poe: ........
Rose: ........

Darth Maul: .........
Darth Tyranus: .......
Darth Vader: Smashed
Darth Sidious: Smashed

Kylo Ren: ..........
Knights of Ren: .......

50% of the depicted Sith have smashed. the math checks out.

 

[Ginger Hail]

Saw it on Friday night. Woof. Easily my least favorite of the Disney flicks.

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I've been watching this over and over for days and it keeps killing me every time.

 

[Deleted member 21339]

The dagger thing doesn't really bother me that much. It's whatever.

 

[Jiggy]

Remember when Luke defeated the Emperor by refusing to fight him at all. Instead he threw away his lightsaber and appealed to his father's humanity. That was some real pussy shit right there. Lightsabers are the key to everything. And with two lightsabers? Phew, not even Palpy can stop you.

 

[Ithil]

because god forbid we have any real emotional catharsis in this film

one of my favourite bits in TFA is after Han's died and we get that shot of Chewie just sitting there, and he quietly growls and looks forlorn. A whole relationship told in a few seconds. Here, R2 does fuck all until he whips out the back up USB stick

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I will at least compliment that they had Chewie freak out after Leia's death, even if it was brief, they ought to acknowledge he's lost pretty much all his friends by then.

 

[FFNB]

just got out of my second viewing and I enjoyed it a lot more. The movie still has its faults but it felt more satisfying and I got used to the pacing.

Two bits that stood out to me while watching:

1. There are two transports on Pasanna when the FO is taking Chewie. I recall someone here complaining about the bait and switch and said "oh so there just happened to be a second one?" Yes, and it was shown to the audience.
2. When Leia calls out to Ben you can see her holding something. It's the medal that Maz gives Chewie at the end. So I'm assuming it's most likely Han's from ANH and I personally think it gives the meeting between Ben and Han right after more emotional

I also kind of went all conspiracy theory in my thoughts in the end with the whole "I am X" bit that mimics Endgame. I truly wonder who had that first, because if I recall the "I am Iron Man" bit was something the Russo brothers thought of extremely late in the game, like within a few of months before release late. Just makes you think.

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Yeah, my second viewing I noticed she was holding the medal as well. If you wanted to add another layer to it, Maz giving Chewie the medal could also be alluding to the life debt Chewie has with Han, and beyond the Falcon, Han's medal is the only thing Chewie has left of his best friend of 35+ years.

Obviously, it works as a meta callback to Chewie not getting a medal in ANH, but I like to view it less cynically, and as a gift to him still tying him to Han in a small way

 

[Ithil]

Remember when Luke defeated the Emperor by refusing to fight him at all. Instead he threw away his lightsaber and appealed to his father's humanity. That was some real pussy shit right there. Lightsabers are the key to everything. And with two lightsabers? Phew, not even Palpy can stop you.

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Or remember when Luke defeated Kylo by not only not fighting him, but not even physically being there, literally last movie?

 

[residentgrigo]

Yes Thornton Reed, Finn has the force. That´s what he wanted to say in the sand trap:

https://www.starwarsnewsnet.com/2019/12/the-rise-of-skywalker-finn-force-sensitive.html

Amazing filmmaking. Doing this via interviews during the film´s opening weekend. You´ll have to read or watch something from the EU to get any of this one day.

 

[Maverick14]

I would have forgiven the ancient sith dagger that was stolen before the end of Jedi saying "go to Palpatine's room at the blown up second death star on Ebdor'" if it had at least glowed a bit smh

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Who said it was ancient?

 

[roflwaffles]

Yes Thornton Reed, Finn has the force. That´s what he wanted to say in the sand trap:

https://www.starwarsnewsnet.com/2019/12/the-rise-of-skywalker-finn-force-sensitive.html

Amazing filmmaking. Doing this via interviews during the film´s opening weekend. You´ll have to read or watch something from the EU to get any of this one day.

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Way too much of the plot/lore has to be explained via the visual dictionary or interviews.

 

[Deleted member 176]

Who said it was ancient?

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Well like I said it's at least from before the second death star blew up on endor

 

[sphagnum]

It is ridiculous that we never got at any point in this trilogy any one-on-one scene between Kylo and Leia, Anakin, Lando or Chewie (effectively his uncles), or 3PO (probably his butler/nanny).

 

[mbpm]

The idea that Palpatine fathered a son while the Emperor is really disturbing and I hope we never find out any of the details

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Episode X: We find out the details

 

[Ausroachman]

Imagine being a sith follower and having to live in that dark cave for centuries with all that strobe lighting .