We already knew Qui-Gon was good, and even if you didn't, Yoda tells you he exists as a Force ghost at the end of ROTS.
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Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker |OT| Revenge of a Sith (SPOILERS NOW OPEN)
- Thread starter MMarston
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I was more referring to the fact that if he was good he should have disappeared instead of his body remaining.
Does it matter what Lucas would tell? They should tell the best story they can. The secret blood linage was really tiring in this movie. 'You're a Palpatine' was funny at first, but that's it, I just thought, who cares about Palpatine fucking and then wanting to devour his grandaughter?
I'm generally an optimistic Star Wars fan but this episode is barely above II and I for me. I had so many problems with the movie.
Something different than you? Probably. I saw the expressions of joy and surprise on my kid's face. I saw plenty of Rian Johnson's work carried on and reinforced in this movie, despite hearing all about the contrary. I saw fan theories being torn to shreds in real time, much like how it happened with endgame. On-screen I saw parents finally successfully getting through to their troubled child after many years, a struggle with which I am all too familiar, from relatives. I saw a celebration of people. And I saw a movie that wasn't too frenetic or rushed at all, despite what I read from reviewers. Hopefully this is at least a little clearer than "baffling".
Again, it's a half measure. The movies show us that disappearing is something that happens when someone becomes one with the Force, yet there was no indication that Ben even exists after his death. At all.
I wonder if McDiarmid negotiated not having to move a single inch into his contract. You know he had some serious motherfucking leverage for an appearance.
That settles it. Going in for round 2 later today. Getting my ticket now.
He was a god in the movie. He gets whatever he wants. The way the sound in my theater was...perfection.
I am tired of litigating this, but the purpose is to demonstrate the movie's themes of failure and that sole heroes going off and going whatever the fuck they want can actually lead to disaster most of the time.
There are millions of examples of heroes' plans not going the way they wanted. I don't know why TLJ haters are so fixated on this.
haha, nothing makes sense! None of it! Peak JJ. I think we're going to see many more bullshit answers from him in the future, giving dumb excuses to cover the many plot holes in this movie. I'm more curious about Rian's comments, someone shove a mic in his face please!
Two of the many questions to immediately come to mind as the credits started rolling. Specifically why he didn't jump into Kylo's body long before Rey ever showed up on his radar. Kylo's an angry dude, and pretty easy to taunt into killing him.
In a way, it's JJ remaking ROTJ what with the Emperor goading the protagonist to strike them. This guy does not have a single original thought in his head, he's utterly shameless.
I slept on it and I'm kind of pissed now that I put together that Zorii and Jannah were there partially to "see they're not gay"-ify Poe and Finn.
Particularly bothersome because Rose already fucking existed. One could argue it'd be detrimental to both Finn and Rose's characters to have them together, but as I mentioned earlier I already felt like after Finn and Jannah took down the main Star Destroyer, he just kind of started "just being there" and got no real ending, and Rose had fuck all to do. It would've been an improvement at least. Not saying Jannah shouldn't have existed, it's just kind of transparent as to why she's there now, and that reason is really superfluous and cynical.
Particularly bothersome because Rose already fucking existed. One could argue it'd be detrimental to both Finn and Rose's characters to have them together, but as I mentioned earlier I already felt like after Finn and Jannah took down the main Star Destroyer, he just kind of started "just being there" and got no real ending, and Rose had fuck all to do. It would've been an improvement at least. Not saying Jannah shouldn't have existed, it's just kind of transparent as to why she's there now, and that reason is really superfluous and cynical.
Just saw it a 2nd time during a matinee showing today after seeing it last night. I enjoyed it more the 2nd time. The story does make sense even though it is a bit hard to pay attention to everything happening in the 1st half and introducing even more minor characters so that the prior movies' minor characters take a back seat role, but I don't feel like there are any plot holes. Not everything needs exposition and there was already plenty of exposition is he 1st half as it is. I enjoyed how the 1st half is kind of like something new for the series with the trio going on their own adventure and the 2nd half is kind like a reboot of certain parts of RotJ. Although I think I would have preferred that their adventure together could have been a Disney+ series outside of the Skywalker Saga and just use the opening crawl to do a time skip... but the 2nd half of the movie does make me want to go back and rewatch the entire saga Since this one seems to enhance the prior movies for me. The first half for me may get better for me with age after future rewatches.
As for planning things out or not... I don't know if Star Wars stories really need everything planned out. Lucas wrote the original to be its own self contained story in case it bombed at the box office... but it also works as a trilogy. The only thing that I would consider a retcon in the OT would be Vader being Luke's father but I feel Lucas directed Alec's line about Vader betraying and murdering Luke's father as if he was hiding something so that he could introduce the plot twist at a later date. The only thing I consider a retcon is this trilogy is Snoke wanting to kill Rey... since it is safe to assume Palpatine foresaw Snoke's death anyway from previous established lore with how manipulative Palpatine is. I feel like retcons mostly happen in prequels like in the Prequel trilogy. Even though Lucas thought up the backstory while writing the original trilogy he still had to retcon a few things for the details of the story to make sense... that's what happens when you start with the end and work your way backwards. Perhaps the struggle of the resistance vs the first order could have been planned out more in advance but overall I think this trilogy has good character development at least.
As for planning things out or not... I don't know if Star Wars stories really need everything planned out. Lucas wrote the original to be its own self contained story in case it bombed at the box office... but it also works as a trilogy. The only thing that I would consider a retcon in the OT would be Vader being Luke's father but I feel Lucas directed Alec's line about Vader betraying and murdering Luke's father as if he was hiding something so that he could introduce the plot twist at a later date. The only thing I consider a retcon is this trilogy is Snoke wanting to kill Rey... since it is safe to assume Palpatine foresaw Snoke's death anyway from previous established lore with how manipulative Palpatine is. I feel like retcons mostly happen in prequels like in the Prequel trilogy. Even though Lucas thought up the backstory while writing the original trilogy he still had to retcon a few things for the details of the story to make sense... that's what happens when you start with the end and work your way backwards. Perhaps the struggle of the resistance vs the first order could have been planned out more in advance but overall I think this trilogy has good character development at least.
I imagine he wanted to pit the two against eachother, and use the stronger one. Then someone did the grandaughter retcon.
That's fantastic, I'm just tired of the secret parents and death = redemption tropes. I'm even tired of Palpatine because he does nothing interesting but to suck people's souls and become immortal, it's just such a generic villian. I'm glad your family enjoyed it, that's awesome, I just find it too generic to enjoy and I can't see why people want the same stuff again, with little boldness or inspiration.
We need to talk if your relatives are dealing with a kid who is a murdering psychopath who killed their dad and then tried to kill everyone else. I'm all for parallels to real life "themes" but when I see people make these comparisons I have to wonder where the line is for story telling for them to not let their own experiences flavor the perception of the character.
Zuko is a troubled antagonist, Kylo is a character who flip flopped in every movie for fantheories and fanfics to be bred and it worked and "pays off" in one of the most absurd "redemptions" I've ever seen, like teen novel territory. The "troubled youth" would work if he was flirting with the Dark side or just opposing characters in the film, but I stop relating to a character's "struggle" when they keep killing people mercilessly and have no desire to change until they get a sword in their chest. Too little too late.
haha, nothing makes sense! None of it! Peak JJ. I think we're going to see many more bullshit answers from him in the future, giving dumb excuses to cover the many plot holes in this movie. I'm more curious about Rian's comments, someone shove a mic in his face please!
Two of the many questions to immediately come to mind as the credits started rolling. Specifically why he didn't jump into Kylo's body long before Rey ever showed up on his radar. Kylo's an angry dude, and pretty easy to taunt into killing him.
In a way, it's JJ remaking ROTJ what with the Emperor goading the protagonist to strike them. This guy does not have a single original thought in his head, he's utterly shameless.
JJ doesn't get it, simple as that. The Emperor was goading Luke because he knew Vader was right there and would save him. Dying was never part of his plan. He was taunting Luke, trying to get him to turn on his father in a rage and take his place. Sheev didn't actually want Luke to decapitate him.
I can't read the writers' minds, but Palpatine definitely is a character who could have been manipulating things/people the entire time, knowing the general outcome. Or, at least, his end goal.
Sure one of the rumours from earlier in the year had this happen, leading to a final clash between Kylotine and Rey in the Death Star ruins, with Ben regaining control long enough to beg Rey to kill him. Can't remember if it was followed with her or Luke reviving him, though.
A lot of the rumours from earlier in the year are way more interesting than what we actually got :S
Right now I'm running on the assumption that they could only do that because they were a force dyad which Palpatine said is extremely rare.
I mean it's a grace thing. There's nothing he could do to make up for his past.
When some is genuinely sorry they don't need to perform some act to gain forgiveness.
And I'm not sure what you're getting at with the force stuff. Someone doesn't grant you passage to becoming one with it. The force itself is the thing. It's everywhere and always there. It doesn't need X good deeds to gain access. It just is.
He doesnt care if Rey or Kylo is the Sith successor. Once he realizes they are both chumps he decides he needs to keep living.
Yeah, it's.... this is how a friend of mine described it: "It's hyper concerned about purpose and plot, and it wants to play the greatest hits. Bloodline revelations, superweapons, turning from the dark side, the Falcon saves the day! What it fails to do though, is to deliver any of the emotion that made us care for those things in the first place. It again assumes that those moments must be good because they're Star Wars."
But stuff like "I am your Father" wasn't great because it was Star Wars. RJ has a great view of that scene in that it was the hardest thing for Luke and the audience to hear. Ironically, her coming from nowhere and her not supposed to be in this story, then finding that place, is more interesting than what was in this film.
At least 3PO's "He's my oldest friend" line was funny.
His training with the Whills was incomplete. It's explained in The Clone Wars. He can't appear as a ghost, just a voice.
In the ending he makes it sound like the Sith succesor needs to be a Palpatine and that why he tried to get her when she was a child. At that point my brain was melting with stupidity, so I don't remember well the full dialogue.
Just got out of my showing and my whole question is:
Why is Palps suddenly a firm believer in Sith faith when most other media have shown him largely as indifferent to the Sith religion outside of pursuit of power?
Also, if he were to possess Rey if she killed him, then wouldn't he also be possessed by whoever his master was?
Side note: But I found it really funny when Palps opened up his skylight underground to reveal the air battle overhead because I imagined a chunk of rogue debris just suddenly falling and killing him.
Why is Palps suddenly a firm believer in Sith faith when most other media have shown him largely as indifferent to the Sith religion outside of pursuit of power?
Also, if he were to possess Rey if she killed him, then wouldn't he also be possessed by whoever his master was?
Side note: But I found it really funny when Palps opened up his skylight underground to reveal the air battle overhead because I imagined a chunk of rogue debris just suddenly falling and killing him.
Agree completely. Millions died either by Kylo's hand or with his blessing (and/or lack of opposition). Scores of Rey's acquaintences in the Rebellion died in his various assaults across the galaxy, on and off camera in the events leading up to and between these movies.
The man is now the SUPREME LEADER. What he always wanted. But suddenly a reappearance from dad -- whom he is never shown to have given another thought to since he killed him -- now has the words to win him over? The same words that earned him a smooth light saber to the gut and a tumble into an abyss so deep his corpse might STILL be falling to this day?
Nah.
Going again in 5 hours. Maybe I'll have a brighter opinion on the turn and the acting job in this scene on the second viewing.
that was my first take of it. hopefully better the second time.
there was potential to let Kylo become the big bad and fall into villainy, even if he was troubled. Rejecting his parents, rejecting Vader, rejecting Snoke, you could have really set up something unique in the last movie where he actually gets to define what kind of antagonist, what kind of ruler, what kind of person he wants to be.
when you introduce sheev at the 11th hour, you undercut all of that, and because he's predetermined to be redeemed he's like a wasted nut. He doesn't get to be anything. He was just a pawn used by the big bad to create drama and conflict with the protagonist to get to our final showdown where the good guys win and the bad guys lose.
he doesn't earn redemption, we don't care about his redemption, and his entire arc can be characterized as boy youth throwing a tantrum across the galaxy.
It didnt need to be a Palpatine but he probably would have preferred it. As it's a tribute to his own ego. If he would have gotten Rey while she was young I have no doubt she would have been a badass powerful Sith. Would have been interesting seeing his approach to training a child in the ways of the Sith especially with it being his granddaughter. Would he be nice at first or start with the abuse early on? We will never know. Maybe we can get a one off elseworlds comic.
But Leia can? This movie doesn't give a shit about the EU. It doesn't even give a shit about the previous 8 films. If JJ wants to copy every major thing from the OT, he's going to do it and it doesn't matter if it's nonsense.
YOU GET A GHOST! YOU GET A GHOST!
I remember reading that early leak and thinking it was so cool :/
It's crazy how much leaked for this.
A weebey.gif worthy theory but there wasn't realistically any reason to prove Finn & Poe weren't gay because nothing in any movie ever implied there was any attraction between them. John & Oscar kept that running joke on for way too long.
Jannah & Rose are extremely similar, I agree. I like them but not necessarily the why & how they ended up being the supporting characters supporting characters.
But Leia can? This movie doesn't give a shit about the EU. It doesn't even give a shit about the previous 8 films. If JJ wants to copy every major thing from the OT, he's going to do it and it doesn't matter if it's nonsense.
YOU GET A GHOST! YOU GET A GHOST!
The leaks had Rey asking Luke to put Leia on the phone and Luke explaining that Leia was still not ready to become a ghost....
So they did toy with the idea...But good lord that exchange would've sucked
Here's what I did like about the movie:
1) They evolved the force time/force projection stuff pretty well.
2) "He's my oldest friend" was a funny line
3) Palpatine was frightening, even though I didn't think his inclusion in the movie was warranted or worked very well.
4) It was entertaining.
Otherwise, some of the introduced characters really didn't need to be in the movie, and a lot of it seemed like a collection of fan theories, with no realization that something isn't cool because it's Star Wars; it's cool because you had a payoff. I agree with Hulk's review: we should have expected this from the Mystery Box director who said that the answers don't matter.
1) They evolved the force time/force projection stuff pretty well.
2) "He's my oldest friend" was a funny line
3) Palpatine was frightening, even though I didn't think his inclusion in the movie was warranted or worked very well.
4) It was entertaining.
Otherwise, some of the introduced characters really didn't need to be in the movie, and a lot of it seemed like a collection of fan theories, with no realization that something isn't cool because it's Star Wars; it's cool because you had a payoff. I agree with Hulk's review: we should have expected this from the Mystery Box director who said that the answers don't matter.
I don't agree at all that Ben never thought about Han after killing, the exact opposite. At the end of TFA he is so consumed by guilt that he punches his wound at the mere mention of Han's name. Later In TLJ Snoke admonishes him for how badly Han's death has affected him. Luke twists the knife again in the climax when he says that his father will always be with him. Han being in his head constantly was one of the few things that flowed naturally from previous films.
But Leia can? This movie doesn't give a shit about the EU. It doesn't even give a shit about the previous 8 films. If JJ wants to copy every major thing from the OT, he's going to do it and it doesn't matter if it's nonsense.
YOU GET A GHOST! YOU GET A GHOST!
Eh, I'm fine with accepting post-Qui Gon Force ghosts. Luke taught it to Leia and Ben at some point I guess.
It bothers me more that Mace, Aayla Secura, Luminara Unduli, and Adi Gallia somehow got to retain their consciousness when none of them should have that ability. Kanan too, but they sort of edged close to him attaining ghosthood in Rebels anyway.
Well his original plan was to undergo a Sith ritual where his spirit was transferred into Rey and she rules with all the Sith legacy in her.
But then Kylo shows up and he rewalizes they are a Sith dyad, two force aides of the same coin and immensely powerful when linked so he drains their life energy (which we saw Rey do force transfers before) and restores himself. Now that he's whole again he takes the throne and doesn't need these two.
It makes enough sense to work kind of
But it clearly works. Because many people are talking about the "epic romance" and "best redemption" and normies are loving it.
Kylo's "romantic" interest I could understand, but Rey? What the hell would Rey see in him? You can go "tropes" all day long but she has Finn, Poe, and other characters (hell give her a female romance I don't care) that could all develop with her. But all we get with her and Kylo is "You killed your dad you monster!" "Yeah but look at me without my shirt." "Oh I see now that you are troubled like me, let's touch fingers and kiss." It's straight out of a young adult novel. And I love me some teen fiction, but this entire trilogy feels like it was written by a teenager or someone desperately trying to appeal to teens instead of trying to be a story.
Again the Force/Star Wars has become Harry Potter Young Teen silly bullshit magic instead of being a tool in the world.
Like one of the biggest examples I had when talking to people about why Force Heals and other Force powers break the universe is because Force was only there as "another" tool in a grand scheme of the world. We have Bacta. We don't need force healing. Bacta heals almost everything. But we need force lighting, force teleporting, force to be more like magic. Because if it's not more like magic the kids won't get in the seats, supposedly. Which is also false because people loved the originals and they (arguably) are more adult looking actors with very little force powers and the universe is grounded and the rules are set and solid. Now we're in a world where being alive is a detriment because force ghosts can just do everything they did while alive when they're dead, so what's the point? What's the stakes?
What's funny is that people will rage against people who didn't like TLJ going "See here's all your fanservice this is what you wanted!" and I'm like "no where in the infinite timelines and infinite earths would I have WANTED this to be the film I had to watch. TFA set up shaky foundation, TLJ destroyed that and TROS just decided to flip off TLJ and now all three movies are a garbled mess. This is all fanfiction nonsense and it's sad to see.
What trailer was the new version in? I must have missed itSomehow disappointed that we didn't get a Palpatine-Rey lightsaber fight at the end with the new version of Duel of the Fates that was in a previous trailer. I wanted something epic like in Revenge of the Siths when he was confronted by Yoda and Windu.
Imo, the Emperor didn't really get the chance to fight Rey. He died so quickly and so easily once Rey had her 2 lightsabers.
It's more Palpatine killed Palpatine with his lightnings rather than Rey defeated Palpatine.
Why did he only extract 75% of their life force and not 100%?
Seeing J.J.'s comment about Rey Palpatine I realised that he just doesn't know how to show internal conflict on camera. That's why Rey must be Palpatine. And even then, the only internal conflict he managed to show there was 30 seconds of Dark Rey.
Even Ben's conflict is not really well shown by the movie and the plot itself, but rather by the amazing acting of Adam.
J.J. is a hack.
Even Ben's conflict is not really well shown by the movie and the plot itself, but rather by the amazing acting of Adam.
J.J. is a hack.
Overall there was way, way more stuff in this movie that I liked than stuff I disliked.
Stuff I didn't like so much:
Stuff I liked:
Stuff I didn't like so much:
- No Anakin ghost appearance
- Luke, mostly his appearance
- Kylo reforging the mask was pretty pointless
- Not enough of Kylo as Supreme Leader
- The fathiers could have replaced the new space horses
- Ben dying
- Ben not being a Force ghost If he's not really dead
Stuff I liked:
- The Emperor returning to tie the saga together
- Rey being a Palpatine
- The trio working together, really great chemistry and energy
- Snoke and Vader's mask being Palpatine's manipulations
- The Passana chase, very Indiana Jones
- The Force healing
- The Force tug of war, Rey thinking she killed Chewie with Force lightning
- The stormtroopers acting like Nazis banging on doors on Kijimi
- Poe getting more development
- The duel on the ocean with Ben's redemption being the inverse of Mustafar and Anakin's burning
- Leia's death being like Luke's
- Han's scene was great
- The Force Bond adding a sense of urgency
- Luke catching his lightsaber
- Luke giving Rey Leia's lightsaber in a hut, the flashback
- Luke pulling the X-wing out of the water
- Ben vs the Knights and getting the Skywalker lightsaber like he wanted in TFA
- The Rule of Two was really enhanced
- All of the Sith vs all of the Jedi, the Sith finally actually killed rather than just one guy
- Finn's Force sensitivity
- Ben achieving in the end what Anakin couldn't
- Rey taking the Skywalker name, the ending, the yellow lightsaber
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