He killed Snoke, destroyed the mask and took over the first order because he was done with sticking to the conventions of the past and he was especially done with his Vader fanboy persona.
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Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker D23 poster
- Thread starter Scrobbles
- Start date
He killed Snoke, destroyed the mask and took over the first order because he was done with sticking to the conventions of the past and he was especially done with his Vader fanboy persona.
How do the characters in TLJ self reflect? Does Kylo have to know how evil he is AGAIN after just having killed his father? We went through this already. Does Fin have to learn AGAIN that being a coward isn't the way to go? And how did Rey grow? How did she face any setbacks? She learnt that after much wondering she's just a nobody. Okay, good, interesting premise! Yet she still won. Luke at least nearly died when he learnt his parentage and had to be saved, while Rey saved the day again.
At least tag me if you're gonna talk trash behind my back.
Maybe you fell asleep during the part of the movie where Rey gets bitchslapped by Snoke, tortured and is about to be executed by Kylo? She actually thought she could turn him back and was completely wrong, he saved her for purely selfish reasons and now she has a mortal enemy after turning him down. Her plan to turn Ben back could hardly have gone worse.
That is where you are wrong, he brought peace and stability to the galaxy and then a bunch of terrorists came and started blowing up government property.
And then they fought, she got away cleanly and instead of being shown as a fool (like Luke at the end of ESB), she's the hero who saves the remnants of the Resistance. Her plan surely could have gone quite a bit worse, considering that literally nothing happened her.
She already was her mortal enemy after the first movie he couldn't defeat her. Furthermore, they (or rather Han) tried to turn Ben back in the first movie and it didn't work.
She thought she could turn Ben back but she was wrong, she got tortured, came close to death and her lightsaber was destroyed before she managed to escape. Luke might have lost a hand in ESB but he got a new one before the movie even ends, let's not pretend it was something particularly earth-shattering.
Doesn't the fact that she tried to turn Ben once again, when Han already failed and Luke insists that it can't be done, show that she made a big mistake? What would have been an appropriate consequence to her bad decisions for you? She failed in her mission to turn Ben and instead of him dismantling the First Order she had to run off and stop him from erasing the Resistance forever.
- Darth Maul
- Count Dooku
- Jango Fett
- General Grievous
- Darth Sidious
- Anakin Skywalker
Once her Kenobi bloodline is revealed she will unlock the power to always have the advantage whenever an elevation difference exists.
Rey got up before Kylo did
If only she was smart enough to choke him to death...
On second thought while I'm excited for sheev, I hope they do it well because I don't want them invalidating the entire anakin arc. If Palpatine straight up just remained alive then damn...
Oh Jesus.
Oh Jesus.
Alright, I guess it's more about the presentation for me.
So in ESB the point was that Luke shouldn't go back to face Vader because a) he should stay and complete his training b) he wouldn't win anyway - in short, it's a trap. What does the little goofy Luke do? He faces Vader and gets his ass kicked. Vader plays with him, throws stuff with, handily beats him, and cuts his hand off. It's clear that Vader has the upper hand. Luke then loses, literally falls down, and by sheer luck gets saved by the others like the little bitch he is. Han is in carbonite, and the rebellion was destroyed (or made to flee) from Hoth - the situation is dire for the good guys.
TLJ has a similar premise. Rey wants to learn from Luke, who tells him that Ben can't be saved and that it's pointless. She goes anyway and springs Snoke's trap. She however doesn't really suffer (she gets tortured for literally less than a minute) and beats all the guard and faces off Ren. She escapes, saves the Resistance in a hero pose and they all fly off. The Resistance, just like in TFA, is just a small group of people trying to save the universe... once more.
What do I have in mind? I don't know, haven't really though about it, but maybe don't let her escape as easily. Or maybe she doesn't get to rest and is stranded somewhere on her own while the others just narrowly escape the FO. Or maybe she gets captured by the FO even. Just make one of her bad decisions have a consequence. Yes, she realised that she made a mistake, but that's not really a consequence. I just think that in the end all things kind of worked out for her, which just isn't as interesting imo.
The difference is the bad guys in the prequel era were done well. It felt like they could actually win, as if they were a tangible threat. Sure none of them were as iconic as Darth Vader but the prequel trilogy wasn't trying to live up to the original trilogy - it was trying to be something different.
Hux is basically a comic relief character, Phasma was all show and no go, Snoke got killed in the same scene he revealed himself to the protagonist and Ben is not compelling enough to carry the whole villain side by himself. Heck his big moment as Supreme Leader of the First Order is getting clowned so even the movies themselves don't take him seriously as a bad guy.
Why else do you think they're bringing Palpatine back if not to inject some much needed weight to the antagonists?
I said the Sequel trilogy, not the prequels.
If he was done sticking to the conventions of the [past then he wouldn't have immediately tried to restore the status quo of the darkside.
Lol no they weren't. They were all cardboard cutouts and action figures instead of genuine characters.
Lol no it didn't. We were waiting for them to die since we knew the endgame was Anakin vs Obiwan. Especially in ROTS.
Um, yes it was. They made a shit ton of contrived callbacks to try to explain things that didn't need explaining in the OT.
In marketing for the prequels Anakin was considered the lead, but if you watch the films in a vacuum you can kinda consider Obi-Wan the lead and it totally works. TPM starts with him, AOTC has huge sections where we follow him on his own, and in ROTS he stays a good guy while Anakin becomes the villain
Well it definitely wasn't copy and paste like the force awakens and the last Jedi.
That's entirely your opinion. Maul didn't really get fleshed out until The Clone Wars and Rebels but with those he became a fantastic character with a surprising amount of depth. Dooku was similarly this unique existence of a man that truly believed in what he was doing, so much so that it blinded him to the truth that he was just another pawn.
Palpatine fucking rocked.
Now you're just trolling, I'm sure.
- Maul kills Qui Gon, but I guess that doesn't count as "a tangible threat" to you.
- Dooku takes out both Obi-Wan and Anakin and had to be saved by Yoda, but I guess that doesn't count as "a tangible threat" to you.
- Palpatine flat out beat the crap out of Yoda and singlehandedly took out the Jedi's best swordmasters despite clearly viewing lightsabers as beneath him, but I guess that doesn't count as "a tangible threat" to you.
Whatever. You're clearly just incapable of having an actual conversation about the movies without getting all defensive. I can't have a serious conversation with someone claiming the bad guys were never a threat in the trilogy where they win.
See? You're literally complaining about the prequel trilogy setting up the original, completely ignoring my point of the tonal, aesthetic and social differences that separate the prequel trilogy from the original trilogy just to have a dig at it.
yeah and look how that turned out.
What did TLJ copy paste again?
Another poster was covering the other points, but this part makes it seem like you missed his character arc in both movies.
Fin spent TFA learning to care about someone other than himself, specifically Rey. He didn't care about the resistance, hell he LIED to the resistance simply so he could get on starkiller and save Rey.
In TLJ he goes from only caring about Rey to actually believing in the resistance's cause, and being willing to die for it. It's literally not the same.
The difference between the callbacks in the prequels and the callbacks in the sequels is that the ones in the sequel have a point and aren't just cameos. So we're not getting stuff like child Boba, Yoda riding Chewbacca, Anakin building C3PO etc., we get an actual story, with legitimately well written characters, and that includes the villain.
It still doesn't really work, Obi-Wan barely has any lines in TPM and is merely Qui-Gon's dogsbody, plus he is absent for the entire middle act. TPM doesn't have a protagonist and in the other two it's Anakin.
The main character of the PT should have been Padme IMO, but it could have been anyone as long as there was a clear plan. George's muddled script for TPM with Anakin as a child and no main character was just a waste of a movie and did so much damage to the trilogy as a whole. Instead of being able to introduce romantic tension with Padme and a rivalry with Obi-Wan in the first film we have to wait until the second one which is already too late, as the story demands that Anakin and Obi-Wan begin to resent each other and split apart while Anakin has to marry Padme at the end. If the main trio had all been of a similar age then we could have actually seen the romance/friendships develop properly from minute one rather than the rushed crap we actually got. Obi-Wan and Anakin's friendship develops entirely offscreen, which is a monumental failure. Until Qui-Gon dies I don't think Obi-Wan says a single word to Anakin, he just shakes his hand that one time. It's just so poorly thought out.
It looks really low res. It's like they didn't have a picture of his face at a good enough size, so they just grabbed a random one off the internet and upscaled it. Compared to everything else on the poster (which are sharp), it looks blurry.
If that were true some fan would have already identified the original source.
Something that happened literally more than a decade after the fact, his character is still absolutely cardboard garbage in the actual film. He's an action figure for kids to buy. Arguably he's exactly the type of character Kylo is a reference to because it was an attempt to emulate the coolness of Vader while missing the point of what made Vader and effective in the first place. It wasn't just the black robes and red lightsaber.
Dooku's characterization is completely thin so he's incredibly boring and stilted to watch.
Palpatine took advantage of a jedi order that got hit with a stupid stick because George couldn't come up with a genuinely compelling conflict and genuinely convincing villains.
Qui Gon was never mentioned ever in the OT and was incredibly stilted in a film that didn't know who the protagonist was so no one really cared or was worried that obi-wan was in genuine danger since we knew what the end game was.
Again, it's the exact same issue as Qui-gon.
This would be compelling if those were actual characters......
You're quite literally defending the prequels right now and arguing that the cardboard cutout villains were done well. Like there's enjoying things from your childhood and then there's that. The SW prequel villains were all neat ideas on paper but were incredibly poorly executed. What makes Kylo an interesting antagonist is his character and how he legitimately fits into the overall narrative puzzle, not how handily he can kill the good guys. Which he very much has the potential to when it comes to anyone not named Rey.
Like, I genuinely don't think the prequel defenders legit sit down and try to watch those films as adults, instead they spend more time arguing about the IDEAS and PREMISES from the films instead of what we actually got in the final product. Clone Wars is like a major case study in how poorly the prequel era was handled, and the difference is that the ST films don't need a Clone Wars to flesh out the characters and give them good writing.
This. None of the characters in the ST feel or look THREATENING. Tarkin, Vader, Maul, Dooku and Palpatine all had an imposing presence, but with the ST where everybody looks like they're in their late 20s it just looks so innocent imo
Good point actually. Yet I still feel the execution for tsht was lacking, as it mostly retreaded the same plot points as his arc in TFA.
I kind of feel like the ST is the opposite in some regards.
I've seen this argument floating around since TLJ came out.
Do people honestly believe that waking up first makes Rey superior?
She got lucky. They weren't sleep-racing. This isn't Naptime Wars. Mighty warriors don't train at waking up super fast from a knockout. It's not a talent.
That confrontation ended in a tie, as evidenced by the lightsaber splitting in half.
I've been saying this will happen since forever so I do hope this is what happens. It'd be so cool to see a battle within the Force itself, on a different plane of existence, and it could actually mean Luke willingly allowed himself to become one with the Force at the end of The Last Jedi because there was no other way to defeat Palpatine.
I mean that's sorta the point. Do you look at modern day nazis like this dude and get intimidated?
or these guys:
It's the ideology, how quickly it spreads, and their weapons are what's truly dangerous. Even when the people behind this shit in the modern day are all fucking goobers.
Men feeling emasculated is a hell of a drug my dude.
I mean that's sorta the point. Do you look at modern day nazis like this dude and get intimidated?
or these guys:
It's the ideology, how quickly it spreads, and their weapons are what's truly dangerous. Even when the people behind this shit in the modern day are all fucking goobers.
Men feeling emasculated is a hell of a drug my dude.
The poster I replied to is a woman.
Well that's egg on my face then. Still, it's really ridiculous that so many people consider Rey waking up first to be a "win." She barely beat him when he was conflicted and wounded in TFA. They knocked each other out briefly in TLJ and she killed fewer guards than him. RoS will be the first time they will be on something resembling equal footing.
And where was that weight in the prequels outside of Palpatine and Anakin?
Most of them are just there to be evil for the sake of evil and mean nothing to the characters until right up to time that someone dies.
- Maul was barely in the movie, spoke one line, and got cut in half by a padawan. It wasn't until they brought him back that he was made interesting and that's where the emotional weight comes in.
- Dooku, who's supposed to be the big guy in AotC, doesn't show up until the latter half of the movie and then he gets his head chopped off immediately in RotS
- Same goes for Jango Fett
- Grevious was a waste, especially now that the 2D clone wars is no longer canon and goes out like a chump as well. You get no sense of threat from him throughout the movie.