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Star Wars: The Last Jedi |OT3| The War is Just Beginning (Unmarked Spoilers)
- Thread starter Bronx-Man
- Start date
In another couple of pages we'll loop back around to the throne room fight being like a CW TV show, and then it'll be Rey being a Mary Sue again, and then someone will get super worked up about the green milk, and then it'll be "Wookieepedia says hyperspace doesn't work that way", and then...
It's like poetry
I love how Rey's first reaction to the Force Skype is "Oh shit Kylo Ren, fucking kill that guy!"
She learned that from Chewie.I love how Rey's first reaction to the Force Skype is "Oh shit Kylo Ren, fucking kill that guy!"
So I found a Reylo gifs tumblr, and I think it might be time to say goodbye to the real world and live there forever.
That one isn't even Reylo, I just love that face Daisy makes.
That one isn't even Reylo, I just love that face Daisy makes.
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So I found a Reylo gifs tumblr, and I think it might be time to say goodbye to the real world and live there forever.
The whole casino mission should have been scrapped as it was a complete waste of time. Extended scenes of Luke and Snoke training their apprentices would have been great instead. Snoke mentions training Ren a couple of times in TFA iirc and I was really hoping that they would follow that up in TLJ.
Him killing Rey was the end of the training. I believe Snoke even mentions it.
The film made it very obvious why he had a problem.
1. She wasn't him.
2. She wasn't Leia.
They *showed*, explicitly, that Poe had a problem the INSTANT she was announced as Leia's substitute. None of her "handling of the situation" was shown before they already displayed, firmly, that Poe had an issue with someone else being in command.
I like the forest fight, but it has two clear advantages: one, it's a more emotionally significant scene. Two, at least one of the fighters (Rey) is absolutely inexperienced in the use of her weapon, and that justifies a lot of what would otherwise would be awkward shots.
It's one of the great fights in the saga for sure.
So you think forest fight is better?
If so, yeah, I concur. At first it seems like the throne room is fight is "cooler" but now since I have time to reflect on it yeah, the fight in TFA is superior to me in so many ways.
I think it's one of the weakest arguments of the movie "apologists" (urgh).
"This is not Luke's story, he's not meant to steal the spotlight!".
I mean, you have Mark Hamill back after 35 years, you get him back into shape, you have millions of fans waiting, I don't think "Ok we can finally use Luke again, let's get him out of the way as fast as possible" was a MANDATORY outcome.
A trilogy with Luke being a mentor to Rey for 2 and a half movies could have worked wonders.
And that's also the big problem here - EVERYTHING is about nostalgia. The big characters from the OT are very close to being degraded to cameos, and I don't think that's the best they could do with them. Hamill's performance in TLJ makes the idea he's been so underutilized even more frustrating, because he's at the top of his game and clearly willing to dive into the character again. What it could have been...
I did. Everyone on the Resistance side is idiotic. They deserve to lose.
Yeah, that's the issue with a lot of TLJ's writing. It's so... shallow. These people are literally dying by the minute, the infighting and squabble between the resistance ranks is costing lives and resources, Snoke's 60 miles wide sheep is looming on them, the guy just led a MUTINY, and... she likes him.
Bloody hell.
It's as if two different people wrote the Rey/Luke/Ben arc and the space chase arc.
The idea that an admiral should be responsible for telling a captain the grand d plan is an idiotic assessment.
There's a reason why that doesn't happen in real life. They tell you what your going to do, and your going to do it. At best you'll get an answer as to why you're doing the thing but that reason can just as easily be bs from the brass.
Yeah, it's the better fight. But the throne room is still good.
See, I'm not a fan of calling characters idiots because we've seen the movie and we know things will go badly for them. At that point Poe had a completely valid reason not to tell Holdo, and at that moment we assume he's right and Holdo is wrong. Later on we find out Holdo was right to not tell him and Poe was wrong for not listening when he should've. If they both have valid reasons for doing what they did and both plans could've ended up working, I don't feel like this makes them idiots. Poe's planned could've worked if BB-H8 didn't find them out and Holdo's plan would've worked if Poe hadn't disobeyed her.
And not that this really applies but I also don't think characters making "dumb" mistakes is really an issue. I'm not sure if you've seen Game of Thrones but Rob Stark gets criticized for being dumb and causing some major fuck ups but him making mistakes was the interesting part of this story. I think characters should be allowed to make mistakes.
Question is: why isn't Holdo sharing that information with Poe?
Don't tell me "he just got demoted and she can't trust him". She LIKES HIM, even after he leads a MUTINY against her. Hours later he's elected new leader of the Resistance, so doubts about his reliability are out of the questions (I guess? None of this makes any sense anyways).
Everything in this plotline is terrible.
Because they've already had multiple desertion attempts, and if someone with knowledge of the plan decided to desert and get caught, they're all fucked.
The whole she likes him after the mutiny thing, is that a trope people had never seen before. X character does something "bad" against Y but Y respects that X would do something so ballsy or insane. That idea is not really knew, likewise with Holdo, even though Poe caused a lot of trouble for Holdo, she still respects that he went so far and did so much to try to help, even if that went against holdo.
I'm sure this has a tvtropes page.
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Also, at this point, the transports hadn't gotten attacked yet. So as far as Holdo knows right now, all Poe did was just cause some trouble for her but things will still be okay. Which is why she calls him a troublemaker and not, "the guy who just destroyed my plan".
I'm sure this has a tvtropes page.
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Also, at this point, the transports hadn't gotten attacked yet. So as far as Holdo knows right now, all Poe did was just cause some trouble for her but things will still be okay. Which is why she calls him a troublemaker and not, "the guy who just destroyed my plan".
Big fan, I've been reading the books for almost 20 years now.
Anyways, I agree with the general gist of your argument, but I don't think it applies here. Here you have people doing way too stupid things just for the sake of progressing the plot, and diminishing its value in the process. Poe goes from being demoted, to being unworthy of being shared a not-sensitive information: as Finn's capture proves, in a life-or-death situation retaining info in this way can lead pieces of the chain of command astray. One thing is not sharing attack plans to avoid them leaking to the enemy, another is not telling people how do you plan to allow them to survive. There's really no reason for Holdo not to tell Poe about the plan; it's her prerogative not to do it, but not doing it a dangerous and stupid decision for a military commander. The guy you're withholding info from is clearly loyal and his biggest flaw is being a hot head, what could go wrong?
But all this could work if Holdo was actually, you know, meant to be a flawed character? She's from the old guard, she's a conservative leader, she doesn't like Poe. Her nephew died in the bombing run, whatever. She's got a beef with Poe and this lead to the chain of command breaking. Ok, fine.
But she LIKES HIM. They make him the leader after a friggin mutiny because he listened to the space foxes. I'm fine with people making mistakes if it's backed by good writing, like in GoT - GoT is full of people making absolutely terrible and absolutely UNDERSTANDABLE mistakes. People die and lose wars because of love, lust, pride, fear. It's tragic but it makes sense.
Holdo LIKES Poe, but she won't tell him why he ain't gonna die like a fool after they run out of gas. Why? It's so damn shallow.
You can like someone and decide that it would be fore the best that they don't know something. Hell Poe effectively told part of the plant to a bunch of people.
Like I said in the above post, nothing tells us that Holdo likes Poe at the start. She has never met the guy and has no reason to like him and every reason to dislike him. She only "likes" him after he pulls a mutiny because she respects the hustle. She sees that what he did took some major balls and leadership, but, at that point it's still fine since the First Order doesn't know about the transports. At best he just caused a bit of a delay.
Also, at that point him being a hot head is tied to his X-Wing but now he doesn't have an X-Wing. What troubles can he cause inside of the ship? It's a bit far out there to think that Holdo would've expected the crazy ass plan Poe, Finn and Rose thought up. Hell, even when she's actually told about it she has a hard time believing they something that insane.
Also, at that point him being a hot head is tied to his X-Wing but now he doesn't have an X-Wing. What troubles can he cause inside of the ship? It's a bit far out there to think that Holdo would've expected the crazy ass plan Poe, Finn and Rose thought up. Hell, even when she's actually told about it she has a hard time believing they something that insane.
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People acting like Holdo's plan wouldn't have worked if the Hacker hadn't taken a heel turn.
It was a good plan.
It would have worked.
Poe didn't deserve to know.
He done goofed up and got demoted. He probably should have been in the brig. His mutiny didn't achieve anything, again his hot-headedness would have got them all killed were it to have worked.
Why are we still debating this?
It was a good plan.
It would have worked.
Poe didn't deserve to know.
He done goofed up and got demoted. He probably should have been in the brig. His mutiny didn't achieve anything, again his hot-headedness would have got them all killed were it to have worked.
Why are we still debating this?
Guys, I think we're devoting way too much time to a teeeeeerrible storyline. I take pride in never devoting too much time discussing Yoda's "this thing about creating clones is horrible, but also pretty damn convenient" flip flopping in the PT and I won't drag down the thread with a discussion about what I consider a tremendously boring and illogical subplot between poorly written characters. I'd rather keep seeing pretty gifs posted or discuss about the good parts of the movie, like porgs.
Everyone loves porgs, right?
Tell me people love porgs, at least. My daughter does - BB8 is still her favourite thing tho, and she won't sleep without its plushie.
Everyone loves porgs, right?
Tell me people love porgs, at least. My daughter does - BB8 is still her favourite thing tho, and she won't sleep without its plushie.
Dumb.
So Kylo confirm kills one of their main hanger bays is destroyed, so there are no fighters being deployed to fend off... three tie fighters.
Then Kylo and his gang blows up the main bridge for the mothership.
They incapacitate the biggest offensive/defensive ship in their paltry (of three?) fleet... and get recalled, instead of calling in reinforcements? Despite dealing a HUGE blow to the rebel fleet?
OH, but that ONE TIE Fighter got harried, so better not send in anyone else, because a totally evil wannabe Empire really cares about the lives of their pilots and ships? God bless them.
How many TIE Fighters does a Star Destroyer even carry anyway?
But this is OT and not TLJ, and this may not even be canon, so considering they only sent in 3 TIE Fighters... i bet they only carry 3, if they really worry about them that much that they can't afford to lose another fighter after knocking out the biggest ship in their caravan.
Oh, and 3 fighters vs the entire fleet? Yeah... can you believe that people are just hating on this movie just because this is nitpicking and shouldn't be bothered about what they're showing on screen?
^ Yeah I think the reasoning behind "return at once, we can't protect you!" callback is just nonsense, ehh, but I guess contrivances like that are needed in order for the main gimmick of the movie to function.
You sure about that? It sure looked to me in the end he got promoted to become the leader of Resistance after all :P
You sure about that? It sure looked to me in the end he got promoted to become the leader of Resistance after all :P
I guess I am just kinda miffed about how half-hearted the movie seem to be in teaching Poe a "lesson". First that I like him, I like him too comment which seems to be made to bang on the head of audiences that despite all the fuck up he has done, we shouldn't be too mad at Poe because he's just oh so god darn likable. And then in the end he got basically promoted by Leia to lead the Resistance anyways; it just feels like the movie tried too hard to make the audience go 'd'awwww' with him despite his fuck ups causing a vast majority of deaths in the movie.
A lot of that Holdo shit doesn't make sense either.
They have problems with people trying to ditch the ship, but instead of telling them they're going to do that anyway, they don't let anybody know to dispel their fears?
And who even knew they were going to ditch the ship? They don't tell any of the pilots that survived the hanger bay explosion, because they might be in with Poe? So who's going to pilot the escape shuttles?
They didn't even tell the command staff, since some of them joined Poe's mutiny.
Did Holdo bring her own staff from the other ship and only let them in on it?
Lot of unexplained shit, so what's actually shown doesn't make sense and looks like its straight out of a poorly written cartoon.
Sure, I don't disagree with any of this. It's a bit of a clumsy thread that deserved to be explored better even within the constraints its set within. Either way, Poe is the real MVP!
That's the plan, man. That's what the movie explains to us. They pull the fighters back because they can't cover them at range. Hux is content to simply follow the Resistance ships, knowing they'll run out of fuel in a matter of hours and he can follow them if they jump. We see that Hux has drawn Snoke's ire earlier in the movie, so we understand that he's going to settle for what he sees as a guaranteed win. Hux is not characterised as smart, daring or even competent, but in his mind he has the Resistance "tied to the end of a string" and that's the plan he's going with.
Could they have sent all their TIE pilots out on a suicide mission to shoot at the Resistance ships? Sure, I guess. We don't really have any indication that the First Order's fighters can do much to permanently disable a ship of that size by just hammering away at its armour, but let's say for the sake of argument that it was possible. Maybe they could have called in another couple of Star Destroyers from somewhere else in the galaxy to cut the Rebels off. Maybe they could have slung their their battering ram cannon underneath a couple of TIE Fighters and flown it over to punch a hole in the Resistance cruiser. Maybe Snoke could have Force Projected over to the Resistance ship's bridge and stood in front of all the important control panels so that when the Rebels shoot at him they accidentally hit the lever that throws the ship into reverse and before they know it they fall back into range of the First Order and get blowed up real good, whoopsiedoodle.
The movie isn't bad because the omniscient viewer can come up with a better plan than the characters did. Every movie ever made, including every Star Wars movie before this one, falls to pieces when you start "Well actually..." and "Why didn't they just..."ing. Watching a movie isn't supposed to be a competition to see whether every aspect of the script holds up under harsh scrutiny. If Rian Johnson hired a military advisor to come in and make certain that the depiction of a space battle in his script was 100% airtight, do you really think it'd make a material difference to this entry in a family-friendly saga about space wizards?
I like the porgs, while hate the movie. They're inoffensive and cute. Their situational humor, though simple, works better and is better timed than the awkward 'real jokes'.
Do you really need to put that 'dumb' tho at his quote, lol.
Needs Han Solo's Force Ghost smiling serenely in the background.
Man, I wish more characters in movies were complete robots. Movies would finally reach the level of writing videogames have!
Some of the people arguing how "idiotic" the Resistance characters are clearly were never in the military or any high stress job during high stress situations.
Some of the people arguing how "idiotic" the Resistance characters are clearly were never in the military or any high stress job during high stress situations.
Yeah I'm pretty sure that "sure he did just commit mutiny, but isn't he kinda cute while he sleeps?" is something people with a background in the military will find definitely relatable.
Let it go, you can't win this one.
If they could barely shoot down one TIE Fighter when there's only three of them to concentrate all their fire on, how would they manage to shoot down a sprawling mess of them?
They blew up the main bridge and their main hanger with only three TIE Fighters.
That's pretty damn permanent.
Nevermind the permanent damage to killing off the entire upper echelon of the rebellion.
THIS is what the movie explains to us.
It's literally like shooting ducks in a barrel. One or two might peck you, but it sure as hell wouldn't hurt you.
Why would they need to send in a Star Destroyer if THREE TIE Fighters can do that type of damage?
But OK, they send in a Star Destroyer ahead, while releasing a swarm of TIE Fighters. They don't have any fighter support and the mothership was heavily incapacitated, so its limited in abilites to defend itself. Then you ahve that one ship, that Holdo was on. Who knows what it does. And you have a fucking medical frigate. Medical frigates usually aren't armed. So it's not like the other frigates of the same class of starship.
So the only ship (I can only recall three of them) that can actually fight a Star Destroyer head on is incapacitated until they get their back ups to the secondary bridge. But as seen in the movie, they were literally running around with their heads cut off, because everyone important died (except leia) on the bridge.
What happens next except a straight up slaughter?
Oh right, the completely convenient plot weaponization of lightspeed ramming. But apparently only Holdo had the genuis to figure that out, so only her ship fucks up the Star Destroyer allowing the unarmed medical frigate and mothership to continue on forward... to be fucked up by the swarming TIE Fighters.
But you're right. This is just a movie, using 80s cartoon quality logic to continue the story as it should. We shouldn't put much thought into the story and take it for what it is: a poorly written story.
They could have done SOMETHING ELSE, kept it more exciting (than the 2mph chase), MORE THOUGHT OUT, but nope, we got this.
You don't need to hire a military adviser or anything of that sort to come up with better reasons or situations to make the story believable or at least exciting.
You want to point out that the other movies may have done something worse, but so what? That doesn't make these dumb situations in TLJ any better
.... and i don't see a preview button.
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"You can't win this one", he says, while proving how hard he misunderstood what Holdo said. Keep shooting, even a blind man will sometimes hit a target.
"People who complain about Holdo's choices should learn about the balance of military structures!"
"Yeah he gets to become the leader of the military structure right after a mutiny, but what matters isn't the military rules but the poetry and the character arc! He listened to the crystal foxes!"
You don't get to selectively decide if the movie should adhere to military logic or not. If you go that route to try and justify's Holdo's behaviour than the rest of the movie gets dumber.
Okay, I should rephrase. "You can't win this one", he says, while proving how hard he misunderstood what Holdo said, as well as what I said. Keep shooting, even a blind man will sometimes hit a target.
There. Add a dash of you not understanding the movie, either. Poe was not made the leader of anything in the film.
There. Add a dash of you not understanding the movie, either. Poe was not made the leader of anything in the film.
Finally saw that movie yesterday and I loved it. People have weird expectations.
About the current heated discussion, I feel like Holdo could've handled hero complex Poe better.
About the current heated discussion, I feel like Holdo could've handled hero complex Poe better.
It's literally not permanent. They had another bridge and more people to command. Kylo Ren himself in a super duper TIE Fighter, covered by the First Order fleet's bombardment, couldn't even slow the ship down for a few moments.
Maybe a thousand more TIE Fighters could have hit some more vital areas, sure, but we went through this. There are infinite other ways it could have gone, but Hux knew he was looking at an easy win in a matter of hours, and also knew that Snoke was probably going to kill him if he screwed up again, so he sat back and waited. The movie sets up this chase situation, explains the logistics of it (with diagrams, even), gives us the reasons why the characters do what they do, and that's all that it needs to do. If that's still not good enough for you then, hey, no hard feelings. If you want to see a similar idea executed in a more grounded, hard-sci-fi fashion, there's that Battlestar Galactica episode where the Cylons keep following them through hyperspace for days. But if you can't accept that Star Wars never has been and never will be concerned with realistic depictions of battle tactics, and that the whole chase setpiece is basically just a way to put a ticking clock on the more important events and subplots of this ultimately character-driven movie, then I have to wonder how you ever enjoyed any of the other movies in this series.
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I distinctly heard the words "...there is peace." in the whispers as Rey turns around and starts heading toward the tree. Which makes me think she is hearing the voice of 'the whills' or something reciting the Jedi Code.