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Star Wars: The Last Jedi |OT3| The War is Just Beginning (Unmarked Spoilers)
- Thread starter Bronx-Man
- Start date
I mean that's how it works with Luke. Luke doesn't have the crazy-ambition that Anakin and Ben had so he never ends up falling.
No, I'm saying that TLJ spells out things constantly in fear the audience may misunderstand.
At first it hyped me up because after all these years I was finally going to see Jedi Master Luke Skywalker in action which then turned out to be a farce. Contrast that with Vader's badass scene at the end of Rogue One that was better than anything we saw in TLJ, imo.
Based on this thread, they needed to explain things a lot more.
A month later and I still absolutely hate The Last Jedi. And I can list the popular negative reasons (like how the casino subplot went nowhere) but really it boils down to what they did to Luke Skywalker.
Look Luke Skywalker is one of my top fictional heroes, I watched the OT a countless number of times growing up. A New Hope and Empire are in my mind as close to perfect as films can ever get. Watching them over and over again I identified with Luke. He's a great evil who comes from nothing, rejects evil and corruption, and redeems his tortured father.
I cannot forgive Rian Johnson for creating the image of Luke Skywalker holding a fucking Lightsaber over a sleeping Ben Solo. That is a manical evil twist, for crying out loud this is the same Luke Skywalker who refused to kill Vader in Return.
"But he said he wasn't gonna do it" No just stop, what Rian did to Luke is unforgivable in my eyes. He's now more akin to Andrea Yates than the hero of my childhood.
You wanna call me a manchild for caring so much about Luke fine then. I probably do care to much about a fictional universe. But I don't care anymore what Disney does now. They've killed all my passionate interest in the franchise.
Look Luke Skywalker is one of my top fictional heroes, I watched the OT a countless number of times growing up. A New Hope and Empire are in my mind as close to perfect as films can ever get. Watching them over and over again I identified with Luke. He's a great evil who comes from nothing, rejects evil and corruption, and redeems his tortured father.
I cannot forgive Rian Johnson for creating the image of Luke Skywalker holding a fucking Lightsaber over a sleeping Ben Solo. That is a manical evil twist, for crying out loud this is the same Luke Skywalker who refused to kill Vader in Return.
"But he said he wasn't gonna do it" No just stop, what Rian did to Luke is unforgivable in my eyes. He's now more akin to Andrea Yates than the hero of my childhood.
You wanna call me a manchild for caring so much about Luke fine then. I probably do care to much about a fictional universe. But I don't care anymore what Disney does now. They've killed all my passionate interest in the franchise.
I though the Luke heel turn was super clever and totally re-framed Kylo for me (who I liked as a villain previously anyway).
It made him sympathetic, which added SO much to his character. You start believing that Rey can actually turn him, and when he kills Snoke, you believe Rey did it until we find out that's not the case.
Luke was never using his lightsaber again, I think that was clear going in to the battle. I loved the the dustoff and brought out perfectly that Luke was a Jedi Master, not some schoolkid looking for a playground fight.
Yes, it was a great character moment for Kylo and Luke. And made them both much more interesting.
That's the answer, though. He looks into Kylo's mind and is caught completely off guard by the depth of the evil he senses in there, so much so that his kneejerk reaction is to ignite his lightsabre, and the instant he comes to his senses he turns it off again. He wasn't going to do it, and he didn't do it, and then he spends the next six years or so beating himself up for even thinking of doing it.
I had to Google Andrea Yates. I don't think you're a manchild for caring about Star Wars characters, but comparing Luke standing over his twenty-something nephew with his laser sword out to a woman who drowned her five children in a bathtub? That's getting there.
"why can't the hero be absolutely flawless ?"
yawn
Yes Luke had a moment of panic thinking Kylo was super evil while it was actually Snoke fucking up his brain. Luke contemplated ending it for a second, just like he contemplated killing Vader for a moment in ROTJ. Big deal.
yawn
Yes Luke had a moment of panic thinking Kylo was super evil while it was actually Snoke fucking up his brain. Luke contemplated ending it for a second, just like he contemplated killing Vader for a moment in ROTJ. Big deal.
TBH, it really doesn't. He was already evil and considering how fast he goes to murder half of Luke's students, he was a lost cause at that point.
The film doesn't bother explaining how Ben felt before Luke pulled a lightsaber on him so we don't even know if he liked the guy or felt absolutely betrayed by him or if he was already planning murder.
I need to know Ben Solo was a good person before he turned so I can know that he isn't some psycho.
And well, it's the eighth episode. Who would the villain be if Ben kills Snoke and turns? Hux? It would've been a good fakeout in Episode IX.
Self-defense. Darth Vader was trying to cut him open with a laser-sword.
Would you just stand around and let your monster of a dad cut you open?
Ben was defenseless and asleep.
Big difference between attempted murder of an innocent and what happened on the Death Star II.
Amen. It's not a good movie. I wouldn't say I hate it, but I'm not planning on watching it again.
Vader is mostly on defense in ESB and ROTJ. He's not trying to kill him, just trying to turn him.
Just like Kylo with Rey in TFA.
I love how that brief sequence in the video before the Finn-Kylo fight is basically a trailer for all the diversity in the movie. The Resistance people go from Ackbar talking to a white guy, to a white woman, to a black woman, to an asian guy.
That said, I think arguing about how Rey's howl is a clear sign of her falling to the Dark Side is a wee bit excessive for me.
It's however a good chance to discuss how the new trilogy doesn't give a flying fuck about the dangers of using the Force. Kylo is bad because... he's bad? Genetically? In the old canon, the lure of the Dark Side was an ever constant threat to all Jedis and force users. Anybody could fall, at any time. Using the force was dangerous and Luke's main hurdle wasn't becoming powerful but doing so without becoming corrupt. What tips Luke over in RotJ is the threat of seeing Leia corrupted to the dark side (Leia!).
In the ST, apparently you're either doomed beyond redemption because of some sort of hereditary genome or unescapable destiny (Kylo) or the Dark Side simply isn't a factor for you (Rey). Let's just say that the entire dark/light side thing is much less interesting in the new saga.
That said, I think arguing about how Rey's howl is a clear sign of her falling to the Dark Side is a wee bit excessive for me.
It's however a good chance to discuss how the new trilogy doesn't give a flying fuck about the dangers of using the Force. Kylo is bad because... he's bad? Genetically? In the old canon, the lure of the Dark Side was an ever constant threat to all Jedis and force users. Anybody could fall, at any time. Using the force was dangerous and Luke's main hurdle wasn't becoming powerful but doing so without becoming corrupt. What tips Luke over in RotJ is the threat of seeing Leia corrupted to the dark side (Leia!).
In the ST, apparently you're either doomed beyond redemption because of some sort of hereditary genome or unescapable destiny (Kylo) or the Dark Side simply isn't a factor for you (Rey). Let's just say that the entire dark/light side thing is much less interesting in the new saga.
6'5 ft tall murder machine with a few genocides under his belt actively trying to cut you into Lego blocks with a lit lightsaber =/= your troublesome nephew sleeping peacefully in a hut under your tutelage.
You're smarter than this, Einchy.
"Troublesome" like seeing a vision of Ben destroying the school, killing everyone and everything Luke loved and destroying the galaxy.
I'd say that's a bit more than troublesome.
And he didn't even do anything while in return of the Jedi he actually tried to kill Vader for a while. At least now he didn't lose control of himself completely.
The movie makes it clear that he's pretty far gone by the time Luke goes to talk to him. Him waking up to Luke standing over him with his lightsabre ignited wasn't the start of Ben turning bad, but it is interesting to know that Ben/Kylo has been stewing over it all those years. I think it's pretty clear he felt utterly betrayed in that moment and hasn't been able to let it go since. It definitely lets the viewer feel a bit of sympathy for Kylo; even if he is a petulant shitheel, we see that things might have gone another way. Then this point is reinforced in the teamup fight, just long enough to give us hope that he might turn back, before we're brought back down to Earth again.
There was no attempted murder. Well, not on Luke's part, at least. Kylo definitely attempted to murder Luke, and successfully murdered the other students :P
Vader was like "How many fucking hands I gotta lose, breh?"
I'm not sure we can even say what really happened that night after Luke passed out. Ben believes Luke tried to kill him and was justified in "killing" Luke and apperantly 6 students went with Kylo. Were they all evil? Did they believe Ben over Luke? Did the others not buy it and tried to kill Ben? It's obviously not as simple as him just killing everyone because he's bad, something else happened.
I just so happen to have the leaked Episode IX script here open to exactly the right page for the flashback scene:
Kylo Ren: "I've killed Luke Skywalker and I'm going to go and live with a creepy monster man in a gold bathrobe who treats me like shit! Who's with me?"
Other students: "Uh..."
Kylo:
Kylo Ren: "I've killed Luke Skywalker and I'm going to go and live with a creepy monster man in a gold bathrobe who treats me like shit! Who's with me?"
Other students: "Uh..."
Kylo:
I'll agree it's not a totally apt comparison whatsoever. It's just what goes to my head when I think of family even considering doing something so unspeakably evil. I get the whole "Luke was overcome with seeing great evil" stuff and hey maybe that's what Rian intended to show. But I saw it more as Luke having a psychotic breakdown, and I just think that's an unforgivable break in character.
Remember Man of Steel, where Superman snaps Zods neck because Zod just wouldn't stop killing. Well many Superman nerds revolted against that, they saw it as an unforgivable break from the character of Superman who classically never kills.
That's how I feel about Luke. The Last Jedi created a version of him that just breaks entirely from the one I have in my head. I'd be writing the same thing if Disney had done something as hackneyed as Luke turning to the Dark Side.
Look if you like TLJ enjoy it, I just wanted to express as a hardcore fan why I just cannot accept what Disney has done. And I hope the conversation can move from just dismissing TLJ haters as "basement dwelling womanhaters."
I liked Luke because of Mark's performance.
But goddamn do I disagree with what actually happened.
He wanted to spare Vader because he understood what the dark side had done to him, and he was his family.
He contemplated killing Vader ? Yeah because he threatened his sister. Family.
Here you have Luke, not just contemplating, but literally going into Kylo's room and turning his lightsaber on, to kill him. To kill his family, a kid. He didn't, okay, but going that far is already a bit much.
But this isn't the worst part.
"B-but obi wan and yoda left to live like hermits too, that's what jedi do". They had a plan. They literally awaited Luke and Leia. As opposed to "who are you ? Btw I came here to die".
You have luke literally abandoning everyone else ? Letting all of them to die horribly because of that new emo Vader he just unleashed ?
Why ? "I can't just get in with glowing knife and take out an army" okay, but that's the situation NOW. There is no fucking way in hell the first order right after Kylo took down the temple, was ANYWHERE near as powerful as the empire at its peak, that Luke and the republic went against. And he knew about Snoke. So what the hell ?
It also makes Snoke's obsession for Luke so... unsatisfying. They could have had the exact same story beats, yet not going completely against Luke's character, by just adding a bit more backstory. It just felt convenient. But I guess that's something I can say about a lot of things in this movie.
But goddamn do I disagree with what actually happened.
He wanted to spare Vader because he understood what the dark side had done to him, and he was his family.
He contemplated killing Vader ? Yeah because he threatened his sister. Family.
Here you have Luke, not just contemplating, but literally going into Kylo's room and turning his lightsaber on, to kill him. To kill his family, a kid. He didn't, okay, but going that far is already a bit much.
But this isn't the worst part.
"B-but obi wan and yoda left to live like hermits too, that's what jedi do". They had a plan. They literally awaited Luke and Leia. As opposed to "who are you ? Btw I came here to die".
You have luke literally abandoning everyone else ? Letting all of them to die horribly because of that new emo Vader he just unleashed ?
Why ? "I can't just get in with glowing knife and take out an army" okay, but that's the situation NOW. There is no fucking way in hell the first order right after Kylo took down the temple, was ANYWHERE near as powerful as the empire at its peak, that Luke and the republic went against. And he knew about Snoke. So what the hell ?
It also makes Snoke's obsession for Luke so... unsatisfying. They could have had the exact same story beats, yet not going completely against Luke's character, by just adding a bit more backstory. It just felt convenient. But I guess that's something I can say about a lot of things in this movie.
I really liked this, despite not liking Superman for being too much of a goodie two-shoes. But I've always loved Luke because even as a kid in the early 90's I realized he wasn't completely black/white good/bad There was a lot of grey. And the more filmmakers and movies bring these grey areas out the more I like them.
That's whats best about any fiction, you can re-write anything at basically any point.
TLJ Luke is the best and only Luke I will ever see.
When Luke cuts off Vader's hand, Vader has fallen to his knees, and Luke is hacking wildly at him, having given in to his hate and anger after Vader said that he'd try to turn Leia. Luke comes to his senses once he sees the wires sticking out of the severed stump, but he's not exactly being heroic as he does the deed.
There are some parallels between that scene and the scene with Ben Solo. Luke consistently has brushes with the dark side when he thinks his friends are threatened. It's both a character flaw and a strength, and it informs his character right down to the final showdown with Kylo Ren, when Luke at last reconciles with himself, and finds peace and purpose.
I understand what you're saying, but this seems like a problem with your relationship to this fiction, not the fiction itself. If what you're saying is that your reverence for a fictional character ruins your ability to see them as human, then that's not the movie's problem.
When you say things like "I cannot forgive Rian Johnson", it sounds like you're blaming him for this, when this doesn't seem like his issue. Treating Luke like a holy godlike character with no personal flaws is bad writing to me.
I feel like this reverence people have for starwars fiction can sometimes almost run counter to what these movies should be doing, which is being good. It also seems to shift the idea of what "good" even means from challenging, interesting work to fan service.
I'm sorry you didn't like it.
Fair point. And for the record I just remembered it was Superman Writer Mark Waid who especially was devastated by Man of Steel. He's far more eloquent than me, I think it's a good read when it comes to how serious we can take works of fiction.
http://thrillbent.com/blog/man-of-steel-since-you-asked/
The way Mark Waid reveres the character Superman I revere Luke Skywalker. And I think so do a lot of fans who spew bile at this movie saying that it was an act of Character Assassation on Luke.
But Superman actually does kill Zod in that movie. I'd totally understand where you're coming from if Luke actually had killed Ben. If he'd swung that lightsabre and even attempted to kill Ben, that would be a huge betrayal of Luke's character. But he didn't. The thing about him looking into Kylo's mind and being taken aback isn't even my interpretation of the scene, it's literally how Luke describes the event to Rey.
To take the Man of Steel comparison a step further, that movie deals with Superman breaking his most important rule by showing him distraught for like thirty seconds before moving on with some hokey jokey ending stuff and then basically never mentioning it again. The Last Jedi portrays Luke's failure as something that absolutely wrecked him as a person, fundamentally changed the lives of every main character in the series and doomed the entire galaxy. A literal moment of weakness; something he didn't, and never would have gone through with, but he's so ashamed by the mere idea of it that he has to spend this entire movie coming to terms with it.
And, I mean, look, if you just can't reconcile that with your idea of Luke Skywalker, that's OK. But, personally, I absolutely love what Rian did with Luke in this movie, and I think it's wonderfully true to his character. It would have been the easiest thing in the world to promote him to this trilogy's Obi-Wan role, the kindly old Jedi Master who more or less only exists to deliver exposition now that his character development is over and done with. Instead, I was delighted to see that Luke was still growing as a character, that he didn't just remain in stasis for the thirty years post-RotJ. He's still out there Luke-ing it up, that ol' impulsive farm boy, making his mistakes but always doing the right thing in the end. That's classic Luke Skywalker to me.
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Don't bother. It's obvious to anyone watching that scene that he's the better fighter
Luke didn't visit Ben to murder him. He wanted a chance to see into Ben's mind without the distraction of training and with Ben possibly blocking him consciously. He turned the lightsaber on in a moment of panic and fear when he saw that Ben had fallen under Snoke (a relationship that doesn't make sense in the films alone).
Luke also spelled out why he left. He cited how the Order allowed Sidious to take over, and it's implied between that and his talk with Obi-Wan in RoTJ that he's aware of the circumstances of Anakin's fall. Of which in his mind he just repeated sans politics with Snoke and Ben, but perhaps even worse as he was well aware of all the players and the situation and still failed to stop it.
He just got his nephew turned completely to the dark side, allowed Snoke to undermine everything, and had all but a small handful of students who turned to the dark themselves killed.
Issues of being able to remove oneself from the Force aside, how does it not make sense with all that in mind that Luke felt that he no longer had, let alone deserved, a place in the galaxy? It's not like there were some chosen children to give him an excuse to stick around, given that special child was the one who just kicked his ass and slaughtered nearly everyone. In his mind, again said quite plainly, he felt that continuing on with the Jedi order, himself a Jedi included, just invites powerful darkness to rise and cause misery to the galaxy. He had his shot(s) and blew it. In that depression, because that's what it was, Luke felt like it would only get worse with his involvement. He did have a plan, which is to no longer cause anymore harm and die off to hopefully have something else that isn't him rise to deal with Snoke/Kylo eventually.
And I actually like that about Snoke. He's so unaware of Luke that he doesn't realize he was no longer a threat. If it weren't for his continued meddling and pursuit of Rey, she may never have searched out Luke and been able to turn him back to the Jedi path. To be there in that moment to allow Kylo the opportunity to kill Snoke.
Luke's been depressed. He's had moments of the dark when surprised and loved ones threatened, only to step back. He's cheeky and sarcastic from time to time, and cocky to boot. Giving up completely was the only element outside of Luke's playbook, but we've also never seen Luke deal with anything even remotely close to what happened at his temple. The end of ESB hardly compares.
And honestly, how else would TLJ excuse Luke's voluntary absence for so many years? Perhaps one could point the finger at TFA for putting Johnson in the corner he had to write out from, but it would have been worse had Luke just been waiting for someone to find him or some other contrived BS.
It's interesting how different people can have different takes on a character.
I've always identified with Luke. The family has a picture of five year old me, wielding a flashlight saber, my mop of hair worn long to emulate Luke, striking a fierce pose. But the Luke I identified with was never perfect. My Luke had a complicated relationship with violent and overbearing father figures. He whined about going to Tashi station to pick up power converters. He got hurt. A lot. He lost is temper when defending his friends. He had an impossible time putting his feelings into words at his father's funeral.
My Luke would totally get all depressed and hide after having an impulsive reaction to seeing the evil growing in a relative. He'd wind up coming through in the end, because that's what broken but basically good people do. But the journey would be a tough one, and maybe he'd let some people down on the way.
I like that Luke, because flawed heroes are better reflections of the flawed people five year olds grow up to be. If you're in a different place, that's fine. But I'm glad that I got to see more of my Luke on screen.
I dunno man it's all stories after all. It's just that image of Luke with his Saber out ready to kill a kid. I just can't accept it. I think "Well what if I woke up with my Uncle holding a gun to my head." And it's like yeah that'd be fucked up and I'd never forgive my uncle.
I will never like TLJ. It's not the same Luke Skywalker that refused to strike down Vader. Rian went to far in wanting us to understand why Kylo would become a monster and I would have just preferred the answer to be that he was simply an asshole.
Well, hey, I won't try to convince you any further, but, like you said, it is just that image. It's the image of Luke's momentary reaction that's burnt into Kylo mind, too; not the meaning behind it, just what he saw when he woke up at the worst possible time.
I think it's interesting that the movie shows us two entirely different versions of that scene, too. When we first see it from Kylo's perspective, Luke's face has this eerie, monstrous quality to it, whereas when Luke retells the same events it's just his regular face. Kylo's memories of that event have twisted over the years into something worse than it actually was. It plays further into his role as the wannabe Vader, desperately trying to convince himself that he does belong on the Dark Side, focusing his energy on hating Luke Skywalker as much as he can.
Kylo is simply an asshole. You think his reaction to the situation was appropriate? Kylo probably had been planning to do exactly what he did without any provocation. Murdering everyone but a handful and burning down the temple was maybe a slight overreaction. That's probably what Luke saw when he looked into his mind.
And you are incorrect with that reading. She's reacting to him that way because it's a
edit: I should stop using the word 'bad' to describe their plan, as someone pointed out earlier to me, it's more that it's a super risky plan and unlikely to work, and Holdo thinks it has a chance to fuck up her better plan.
I think the entire discussion would be more meaningful if the ST didn't gloss over the Force and its implications so much.
Rey never struggles with the Dark Side; she's an incorruptible light force user and the story absolutely doesn't care about having her confront herself with temptation. She's untrained, unguided but the Dark Side is never even really on the map for her; in fact, nobody even mentions it to her I think. She descends into the "dark side place" but where Luke failed (in a much more clichèd yet powerful scene), she literally snaps her fingers and she's out.
Kylo's struggles are better explored; he's the "protagonist" in this sense, but to him the temptation is the light side, instead. But here is also where TLJ fails to propel the narrative in an interesting direction.
Ben used to be a light side user who was corrupted to the dark side by an evil mentor (Snoke). He fundamentally had two masters, Luke and Snoke, both teaching him the different ways of the force. And after he became Kylo Ren, we see him literally struggle with the temptation of the light side, which is something we never actually experienced before. The OT and PT sell us the idea that once you're tainted by the dark side you're done; it takes Vader a monumental amount of strength and love to break out of that "spell".
The fact that Ben has to look for guidance from Vader's (silent) mask means that he's very much tilting between light and dark, and it's only when he kills his father that he seems to take a definitive stance. This is also the proof of Luke's true failure - not his moment of weakness when he visited Ben, but having given up on trying to make things up and bring him back to the light when it was clearly still possible. Luke's exile is his true sin, but we discussed this already.
Now in TLJ we see Kylo rebel to his second master, and this would, ideally, come with an actual novel idea: a sith/dark side user that rebels against the dark side for his own sake. Ben has renounced the light side but he's also renouncing Snoke and his teachings. This all kinda goes nowhere when we see Kylo behave like he does at the end of the movie, as the entire perspective of the dark side and its corruption is dropped in TLJ. Kylo's simply rebelling against Snoke on its own volition; he's as free from the moral implications of the use of the Force as Rey is. It's basically an entire aspect of the idea of the Force that the ST has dropped, and there's cultural reasons to do so - the idea that you do what you wanna do and if you're a good person you're fine using the Force is much more in tune with the cultural climate of the new millennium than the idea that there's right and wrong and doing "wrong" things is something that is objectively determinable.
Rey never struggles with the Dark Side; she's an incorruptible light force user and the story absolutely doesn't care about having her confront herself with temptation. She's untrained, unguided but the Dark Side is never even really on the map for her; in fact, nobody even mentions it to her I think. She descends into the "dark side place" but where Luke failed (in a much more clichèd yet powerful scene), she literally snaps her fingers and she's out.
Kylo's struggles are better explored; he's the "protagonist" in this sense, but to him the temptation is the light side, instead. But here is also where TLJ fails to propel the narrative in an interesting direction.
Ben used to be a light side user who was corrupted to the dark side by an evil mentor (Snoke). He fundamentally had two masters, Luke and Snoke, both teaching him the different ways of the force. And after he became Kylo Ren, we see him literally struggle with the temptation of the light side, which is something we never actually experienced before. The OT and PT sell us the idea that once you're tainted by the dark side you're done; it takes Vader a monumental amount of strength and love to break out of that "spell".
The fact that Ben has to look for guidance from Vader's (silent) mask means that he's very much tilting between light and dark, and it's only when he kills his father that he seems to take a definitive stance. This is also the proof of Luke's true failure - not his moment of weakness when he visited Ben, but having given up on trying to make things up and bring him back to the light when it was clearly still possible. Luke's exile is his true sin, but we discussed this already.
Now in TLJ we see Kylo rebel to his second master, and this would, ideally, come with an actual novel idea: a sith/dark side user that rebels against the dark side for his own sake. Ben has renounced the light side but he's also renouncing Snoke and his teachings. This all kinda goes nowhere when we see Kylo behave like he does at the end of the movie, as the entire perspective of the dark side and its corruption is dropped in TLJ. Kylo's simply rebelling against Snoke on its own volition; he's as free from the moral implications of the use of the Force as Rey is. It's basically an entire aspect of the idea of the Force that the ST has dropped, and there's cultural reasons to do so - the idea that you do what you wanna do and if you're a good person you're fine using the Force is much more in tune with the cultural climate of the new millennium than the idea that there's right and wrong and doing "wrong" things is something that is objectively determinable.
You missed the whole point of the scene. The Dark Side doesn't feed her anger like it does with Luke. It stokes her feelings of loneliness and abandonment. Following that she starts to bond with Ren and lashes out at Luke before running off and doing exactly what Snoke wanted her to do.
Reylo, Poelo, Finnlo, FinnRey, FinnPoe, RoseFinn, all this shipping is fine and dandy and kinda weird and I'm not really a fan of any of it but I can laugh with you all and watch you discuss it. The thing that makes me happy in it all is that Chewie is friends/enemies with the Porgs.
Saw Last Jedi again over the weekend. The two things I was trying to pay more attention to over the course of the movie were Kylo Ren during the interactions with Rey, to see if he realized beforehand that Snoke was playing him, and the Holdo/Poe relationship during the movie.
- So yeah, I totally believe Kylo Ren knew early on that Snoke was manipulating him. Ren's reaction when Snoke reveals that he was the person who bridged them & Snoke's dialogue about how he senses absolute resolve from Kylo were the two big markers that made it apparent. Also, that Throne Room fight sequence is great.
- I really maintain my belief that Holdo is partially at fault for Poe going rogue and causing a brief mutiny. She's antagonistic towards Poe from their first interaction, and she goes after him without provocation as well. Poe sending Finn and Rose off on their side quest was still really stupid on his own. But the one thing I really noticed was that a few of the people in Poe's mutineer group were bridge crew personnel, meaning Holdo wasn't even keeping the bridge crew informed of the plan. The movie gives a strong implication that the plan was only known by three people (Holdo, Leia, and one other senior officer).
I really don't understand how having a fleeting moment of weakness is out of character... for ANYONE. It's way easier for me to comprehend why people complain about him actually abandoning it all, not sticking around the scene to regroup and go fight Kylo or try to fix him or whatever. I don't agree with either complaint, but I can understand more why people would have a grievance with him leaving.
