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Darcy

Member
Oct 27, 2017
127
People will learn the true story if those involved decide to tell it. Then said people can absorb the new information and make of it what they will. I'm not sure how that changes anything for now?

And the film does try to subvert the audiences expectations, a few times. What do you mean by asking that question?

Well learning this information is quite groundbreaking. It kind of question the classic inspirational ending they chose, imo. They decides this "history" has no weight outside of Luke and Ben narrative, it does, I think.
The expectation of the mythic heroic persona/action/sacrifice at the core to these kind of movies, SW especially. TLJ kind of deconstructed it to just throw it back for cinematic value and, imo, undermine what the movie did up until the throne room. A lot of shaking for, in the end, a very conventional answer, imo.

Well, isn't the more important question: How dead is he? Is he even dead?
Isn't he a force ghost or even some kind of force god now. If we think about "force ghost Yodas" abilities in TLJ, showing up (iirc not in the see through ghost form but 'solid' looking) and interacting directly with 'reality' (blowing stuff up using force(?) lightning).
With this in mind you could even argue that in his current state he is not longer bound to the 'limits' of a body and could be even more effective in the war than before.
He might even be able to play his 'force projection stunt' against Kylo or the First Order again.

I was responding to people saying it made him look like a God because people of the galaxy (FO, rebels etc.) thought he was still alive. That this illusion, a completely idealized and constructed narrative, made his tale work.
 

We_care_a_lot

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,157
Summerside PEI
You didn't understand anything of what I wrote, did you?
Yes, we just reject it. Your idea of what makes a legend or hero is narrow and superficial to us. I was grinning ear to ear when I realized what Luke pulled off. It's probably the most inspiring moment of the entire series, extended universe included for me. Many people consider it a watershed moment for the series. I'm sorry you didn't get to see him backflipping and wall running cutting down dudes like butter the way they did in the prequels. That was never in the cards.

Even Snoke realizes that Luke was smart to stay the hell away. The series reinforces over and over and over again that when someone in the throes of the dark side cuts down their enemy in anger, it makes them exponentially more powerful. Luke facing kylo in the flesh was a lose lose situation. They would have lost. He did the only correct thing in that scenario. Had he come back with Rey they would probably all be dead.

Instead of thinking people are incapable of understanding your deep thoughts, maybe consider that their are other perspectives besides yours and maybe, like the rest of us did, go back and watch the film with an open mind instead of going into it trying to reinforce your preconceived views. Maybe examine what the story is trying to say instead of what you wanted it to say.
 

Lunar Wolf

Banned
Nov 6, 2017
16,237
Los Angeles
Yes, we just reject it. Your idea of what makes a legend or hero is narrow and superficial to us. I was grinning ear to ear when I realized what Luke pulled off. It's probably the most inspiring moment of the entire series, extended universe included for me. Many people consider it a watershed moment for the series. I'm sorry you didn't get to see him backflipping and wall running cutting down dudes like butter the way they did in the prequels. That was never in the cards.

Even Snoke realizes that Luke was smart to stay the hell away. The series reinforces over and over and over again that when someone in the throes of the dark side cuts down their enemy in anger, it makes them exponentially more powerful. Luke facing kylo in the flesh was a lose lose situation. They would have lost. He did the only correct thing in that scenario. Had he come back with Rey they would probably all be dead.

Instead of thinking people are incapable of understanding your deep thoughts, maybe consider that their are other perspectives besides yours and maybe, like the rest of us did, go back and watch the film with an open mind instead of going into it trying to reinforce your preconceived views. Maybe examine what the story is trying to say instead of what you wanted it to say.

Nah. Luke Skywalker throwing his lightsaber away to proclaim himself a Jedi like his father before him and refusing to submit himself to the darkside to win is the most inspiring moment in the entire series and this doesn't even hold a candle to it.

That is probably what I would call the climax of Star Wars in general and it's not even based off of Campbell's framework. It was Lucas' very own idea.
 

Deleted member 19218

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,323
I'm pretty sure they think Luke killed everyone and blew up the Death Star himself with a Super Saiyan firebomb

Or at least that's how TLJ should have ended



Can we please let Chosen One die with midichlorians

The prequels were a mistake

But they gave us Obi-Wan Kenobi played by Ewan McGregor. He actually almost single handedly redeems that trilogy. I hope he gets a spin off story that he deserves.
 

Deleted member 11995

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,386
Scotland
https://youtu.be/JpoUN_A12Eg

This lady's thoughts on TLJ criticism echoes mine. Especially her observation that some of the worst criticisms really make you question if the person ever watch a movie before.

I loved her personal negative nitpicks.

What's up with Snoke's magic magnifying glass? When was that thing installed, and why?!!

But yeah, she quite comprehensively breaks down why a whole lot of the criticisms of TLJ just don't seem very well thought out (put it that way).
 

Lizzy

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,041
I loved her personal negative nitpicks.

What's up with Snoke's magic magnifying glass? When was that thing installed, and why?!!

But yeah, she quite comprehensively breaks down why a whole lot of the criticisms of TLJ just don't seem very well thought out (put it that way).
Only thing I really disagreed with was her assessment of Kylo Ren and certainty that he'll get redeemed. I hope not.
 

Angel DvA

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,232
I used to like RLM during the Prequel Reviews, as a teenager. Every review I've seen by them since has continued to convince me of one thing: They're terrible fucking film critics.

Or you liked them because they aligned with your opinion at the time, I think they're too soft with TLJ.

The narrative from internet tryhards like RLM about TLJ is already shifting from "I didn't like this movie because reasons!" to "it's just subversion for subversion's sake, that doesn't make it good!" and all of this is just so fucking tiring

The movie has problems, it's not because most of you are over reaching with everything this movie proposed that it makes people who don't like it wrong, there is no point to argue with people that are trying so hard to convince themselves that even Canto Bright arc isn't so bad after all... I respect people that really love it, we don't have the same tastes and that's ok but I can't seriously think that most of the fans or critics can get out the movie and said it's good.

this new trilogy is for Star Wars what DBSuper is for DBZ.
 

Ether_Snake

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
11,306
Obi-Wan was awful in the prequels, like the other characters. Bad dialogue, always cautioning others.

And the awful accent.
 

Inferno

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,554
Tampa, FL
Or you liked them because they aligned with your opinion at the time, I think they're too soft with TLJ.

Nah. My favorite critic is David Ehrlich, and I disagree with him a lot. He's my favorite because he's an incredibly strong and insightful writer with a deep understanding of storytelling and filmmaking. So, basically the complete opposite of the RLM guys.
 

Deleted member 5666

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
14,753
Or you liked them because they aligned with your opinion at the time, I think they're too soft with TLJ.



The movie has problems, it's not because most of you are over reaching with everything this movie proposed that it makes people who don't like it wrong, there is no point to argue with people that are trying so hard to convince themselves that even Canto Bright arc isn't so bad after all... I respect people that really love it, we don't have the same tastes and that's ok but I can't seriously think that most of the fans or critics can get out the movie and said it's good.

this new trilogy is for Star Wars what DBSuper is for DBZ.
TLJ is a better written and better directed film than most of the OT to many, if not the majority of fans. You can't say that about Super
 

Deleted member 11995

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,386
Scotland
Well learning this information is quite groundbreaking. It kind of question the classic inspirational ending they chose, imo. They decides this "history" has no weight outside of Luke and Ben narrative, it does, I think.
The expectation of the mythic heroic persona/action/sacrifice at the core to these kind of movies, SW especially. TLJ kind of deconstructed it to just throw it back for cinematic value and, imo, undermine what the movie did up until the throne room. A lot of shaking for, in the end, a very conventional answer, imo.

I'm sorry, but I'm really not following you here at all.

Are you saying that you think Luke's final act was a cop-out on the part of the filmmakers?
 

Visanideth

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
4,771
Overall I think you just have an extremely cynical view of this and that's not likely to change, but you're still ignoring the fact that regardless of the facts of the situation, Luke actually did save the Resistance! It's not a lie.

That's absolutely true. That's why I was discussing the political significance of saving the Resistance and how that would sparkle "hope".

I may be making this a little too grounded and "adult", but imagine a warzone. An occupying army. The very tangible threat of Stormtroopers showing up at your door.

You tune in for the evening news, and in a day where the Resistance fleet was annihilated and was about to be destroyed, Luke Skywalker showed up and saved them. Ok. But where are they now? How many? What happens now?

And mind you, if they lie, if the "Zaitsev" the story of Luke this can really work, because in the same day Snoke died.




Ok, now stop for a second. You see why this stuff bothers me? Ok, all that shit went down this week, including a weapon of mass destruction annihilating an entire star system - the most important star system in the galaxy. You really need to galvanize people and rally them to your cause. Let's see what you got:

- old, retired war-legend/jedi master who projects and image to allow the Resistance to flee, factually saving it, and then dies of exaustion.

- you also have a young, attractive and very much alive Jedi who this week alone partecipated in the destruction of Starkiller base, boarded Snoke's ship, ufficially killed Snoke, survived the distruction of said ship, and saved the Resistance TWICE (half the age, double the Luke!) in the same day.



Kids should play with Rey's doll, not Luke. And she's STILL a war asset now. She's the Resistance's weapon of mass destruction.
 

Eidan

Avenger
Oct 30, 2017
8,578
I still think RLM are capable critics, I just don't think their TLJ review is a good one. When you have a 40+ minute film review and you spend longer talking about a random Star Trek episode than you do the performances in the film you're actually reviewing, you have a problem.
 

Famassu

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,186
Or you liked them because they aligned with your opinion at the time, I think they're too soft with TLJ.



The movie has problems, it's not because most of you are over reaching with everything this movie proposed that it makes people who don't like it wrong, there is no point to argue with people that are trying so hard to convince themselves that even Canto Bright arc isn't so bad after all... I respect people that really love it, we don't have the same tastes and that's ok but I can't seriously think that most of the fans or critics can get out the movie and said it's good.

this new trilogy is for Star Wars what DBSuper is for DBZ.
The movie doesn't have problems as big as you falsely claim. That it's DB Super levels of bad is ridiculous hyperbole.

And Canto Bright has its issues but 1) it lasts, like, 15 minutes and 2) it's not all bad. Even if the CB segment was as bad as the prequel trilogies, it's still not enough to completely ruin the movie otherwise. But it's not even nearly as bad as prequel stuff outside of BB8 stunning all those guards. It has narrative/character developmental/world building function and consequences. Categorizing it as some RPG side mission is simply false. It has some unnecessary parts (the already mentioned BB8 part and the chase is too long) but it as a whole isn't completely worthless.
 

Orb

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
9,465
USA
The movie has problems, it's not because most of you are over reaching with everything this movie proposed that it makes people who don't like it wrong, there is no point to argue with people that are trying so hard to convince themselves that even Canto Bright arc isn't so bad after all... I respect people that really love it, we don't have the same tastes and that's ok but I can't seriously think that most of the fans or critics can get out the movie and said it's good.
I don't think it's really fair to say that we are "over reaching" to make the movie successful because almost more than any other Star Wars film, it actually beats you over the head with its themes to make sure you get them. After seeing it 3 times I can say I love the movie, but that's actually one of my flaws with it. There are a few times when it seems like they are being a little heavy-handed with that stuff, which is a shame because most of the time it is handled very well. In that way, it's not like we are trying to give the movie more credit than it deserves or something. In fact, I would say a vast majority of the problems I've seen expressed about the movie can be explained but stuff that's actually in the film. So if anything I think many of the detractors are glossing over the movie rather than the other way around.

I truly believe if you examine this movie on an artistic level and a critical eye, that it's probably the strongest Star Wars film in terms of theme and character. But I also realize that for some people, that's not enough. They watch these movies on a purely emotional level and for some, the way Luke died just stuck in their craw. For me, it was a perfect realization of the entire movie and the saga as a whole.

I don't know. Like you said, ultimately people are going to have different opinions, and it doesn't seem like anyone's in this thread is changing much. It's the same 20 to 30 people going at the same issues over and over again. I think there have been a few people who have softened from their initial harsher opinions. I've personally grown to love it more as I discuss it and break it down. But go back to the first OT and look at the people who disliked it vs. liked it and most of us are still here with those same opinions.

I would love to be able to break down why I loved the movie and approach it from the perspective of film theory but some people just don't care to hear any of that. And I guess that's fine.
 

Darcy

Member
Oct 27, 2017
127
I'm sorry, but I'm really not following you here at all.

Are you saying that you think Luke's final act was a cop-out on the part of the filmmakers?

It was a way to give him a cool ending (because all the Legacy characters have to be phased out at some point) but, imo, it undermined the ideas raised before Crait.

RLM feelings from their review is: it is complicated. They used the "subverting" meme when they were drunk during the BotW. They don't hate TLJ.
I share Jay POV mostly.
 

Deleted member 11995

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,386
Scotland
Only thing I really disagreed with was her assessment of Kylo Ren and certainty that he'll get redeemed. I hope not.

I think I agree, at this point in time. It seems wrong to think he could ever be forgiven, but you never know. We've got another film left before the end, and he could go in a few different directions.

I'm trying to keep a little bit of an open mind about Ben. I really want him to acknowledge how wrong he is, for example. That seems important to me, for some reason.
 

Visanideth

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
4,771
Almost halfway to OT4 and ultimate power!

cJlBUVL.gif
 

Deleted member 11995

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,386
Scotland
It was a way to give him a cool ending (because all the Legacy characters have to be phased out at some point) but, imo, it undermined the ideas raised before Crait.

What ideas, in particular, did you think Luke's final act undermined?

I'm genuinely curious, because for me it seemed to perfectly tie in with the message that he shouldn't just give up, run away and hide from his past mistakes, but rather face up to them, try to learn and then do some good with his knowledge and power.
 

Angel DvA

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,232
Nah. My favorite critic is David Ehrlich, and I disagree with him a lot. He's my favorite because he's an incredibly strong and insightful writer with a deep understanding of storytelling and filmmaking. So, basically the complete opposite of the RLM guys.

What does he think about SW8 ? I'm curious.

TLJ is a better written and better directed film than most of the OT to many, if not the majority of fans. You can't say that about Super

lmao, RJ is an okish director, the photography of the movie is really great ( who is the the man I need to thank for this ? ) but the scenario is terrible, character arcs are a joke and they wasted so much in this, talent and story plot.

The movie doesn't have problems as big as you falsely claim. That it's DB Super levels of bad is ridiculous hyperbole.

And Canto Bright has its issues but 1) it lasts, like, 15 minutes and 2) it's not all bad. Even if the CB segment was as bad as the prequel trilogies, it's still not enough to completely ruin the movie otherwise. But it's not even nearly as bad as prequel stuff outside of BB8 stunning all those guards. It has narrative/character developmental/world building function and consequences. Categorizing it as some RPG side mission is simply false. It has some unnecessary parts (the already mentioned BB8 part and the chase is too long) but it as a whole isn't completely worthless.

See , it's not all that bad!!! of course it is, Canto bright is not the worst thing of the movie to me but it's terrible in every way.

I don't think it's really fair to say that we are "over reaching" to make the movie successful because almost more than any other Star Wars film, it actually beats you over the head with its themes to make sure you get them. After seeing it 3 times I can say I love the movie, but that's actually one of my flaws with it. There are a few times when it seems like they are being a little heavy-handed with that stuff, which is a shame because most of the time it is handled very well. In that way, it's not like we are trying to give the movie more credit than it deserves or something. In fact, I would say a vast majority of the problems I've seen expressed about the movie can be explained but stuff that's actually in the film. So if anything I think many of the detractors are glossing over the movie rather than the other way around.

I truly believe if you examine this movie on an artistic level and a critical eye, that it's probably the strongest Star Wars film in terms of theme and character. But I also realize that for some people, that's not enough. They watch these movies on a purely emotional level and for some, the way Luke died just stuck in their craw. For me, it was a perfect realization of the entire movie and the saga as a whole.

I don't know. Like you said, ultimately people are going to have different opinions, and it doesn't seem like anyone's in this thread is changing much. It's the same 20 to 30 people going at the same issues over and over again. I think there have been a few people who have softened from their initial harsher opinions. I've personally grown to love it more as I discuss it and break it down. But go back to the first OT and look at the people who disliked it vs. liked it and most of us are still here with those same opinions.

I would love to be able to break down why I loved the movie and approach it from the perspective of film theory but some people just don't care to hear any of that. And I guess that's fine.

That's why people stopped arguing about it, I come here some time to make gentle trolls and that's it, it seems like some people will need years or the next episode of the series to see how mediocre this one is. When the movie released, every persons that didn't like the movie came here and said the same thing, the same problems over and over but they got tired trying to explain why this or this scene is badly written or executed, I deeply respect people that are loving it, it just means we don't have the same expectation and tastes. I think it's not a terrible movie as a all but for a Star Wars movie, it's garbage.
 
Oct 28, 2017
13,691
What does he think about SW8 ? I'm curious.



lmao, RJ is an okish director, the photography of the movie is really great ( who is the the man I need to thank for this ? ) but the scenario is terrible, character arcs are a joke and they wasted so much in this, talent and story plot.



See , it's not all that bad!!! of course it is, Canto bright is not the worst thing of the movie to me but it's terrible in every way.



That's why people stopped arguing about it, I come here some time to make gentle trolls and that's it, it seems like some people will need years or the next episode of the series to see how mediocre this one is. When the movie released, every persons that didn't like the movie came here and said the same thing, the same problems over and over but they got tired trying to explain why this or this scene is badly written or executed, I deeply respect people that are loving it, it just means we don't have the same expectation and tastes. I think it's not a terrible movie as a all but for a Star Wars movie, it's garbage.

Gotta admit your gentle troll and declarations of the film being shit with no substance to back it up just convinced me. This movie really IS garbage.
 

Inferno

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,554
Tampa, FL
It's not in his 25 Best Movies of 2017 list, at least. And Mother! is, so that's that.

It's a very peculiar list. I agree with a lot of his picks, actually.

Well yeah. Because mother! (gotta remember that lower-case 'm', my man. :P) is brilliant.

He also saw Star Wars after publishing that list. On Letterboxd he said: "Would I put in my top 25 if I could go back? I don't know and don't care."
 

Visanideth

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
4,771
Well yeah. Because mother! (gotta remember that lower-case 'm', my man. :P) is brilliant.

He also saw Star Wars after publishing that list. On Letterboxd he said: "Would I put in my top 25 if I could go back? I don't know and don't care."

If I can be completely blunt, when I read the review before knowing it was his my reaction was "This guy decided to give a blowjob to Disney while exposing himself as little as he can".

The entire review only discusses the movie in terms relative to the saga. It's basically the equivalent of "subversion for the sake of subversion" written by someone who feels that's a good thing. He barely discusses anything that actually happens in the movie, and focuses on why it's good that many things don't happen. Which is a problem I had with a lot of early reviews too: I was about to scream "Stop talking about what isn't in the movie and tell me why it's good!".


Mind you I think he's bloody right about a lot of things, including several points about the slaying of sacred cows. I don't think anybody should disagree that changes were needed, and that many, many of the bold choices of TLJ are worth it, and even when they lack in execution, they still have their heart in the right place.
But he also says:

If Hollywood isn't going to risk telling new stories, the least they could do is not fuck up the old ones.


And TLJ doesn't come out scott free in this regard.
 

Orb

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
9,465
USA
But it's the ways in which Kylo Ren overlaps with Luke that make him such a compelling foil for Rey: Both her mentor and her nemesis are essentially arguing for the same thing: destroying the things they hate about the past. It's no wonder they both see so much potential in a Force-sensitive girl who doesn't have one.
someone find this guy an editor NOW /s
 

Inferno

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,554
Tampa, FL
If I can be completely blunt, when I read the review before knowing it was his my reaction was "This guy decided to give a blowjob to Disney while exposing himself as little as he can".

The entire review only discusses the movie in terms relative to the saga. It's basically the equivalent of "subversion for the sake of subversion" written by someone who feels that's a good thing. He barely discusses anything that actually happens in the movie, and focuses on why it's good that many things don't happen. Which is a problem I had with a lot of early reviews too: I was about to scream "Stop talking about what isn't in the movie and tell me why it's good!".


Mind you I think he's bloody right about a lot of things, including several points about the slaying of sacred cows. I don't think anybody should disagree that changes were needed, and that many, many of the bold choices of TLJ are worth it, and even when they lack in execution, they still have their heart in the right place.
But he also says:

If Hollywood isn't going to risk telling new stories, the least they could do is not fuck up the old ones.


And TLJ doesn't come out scott free in this regard.

I guess I should be clear, that's not his formal review of The Last Jedi. He didn't write one for it. That's more of just a "think-piece" on his thoughts about it's relationship to the culture of blockbuster cinema.
 

WadiumArcadium

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
5,238
UK
That's why people stopped arguing about it, I come here some time to make gentle trolls and that's it, it seems like some people will need years or the next episode of the series to see how mediocre this one is. When the movie released, every persons that didn't like the movie came here and said the same thing, the same problems over and over but they got tired trying to explain why this or this scene is badly written or executed, I deeply respect people that are loving it, it just means we don't have the same expectation and tastes. I think it's not a terrible movie as a all but for a Star Wars movie, it's garbage.
Ah, I do love the old 'you'll see I was right eventually!' bs. You could just say you dislike the film and leave it at that.
 

Angel DvA

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,232
If Hollywood isn't going to risk telling new stories, the least they could do is not fuck up the old ones.

I love this sentence, he should have said it to RJ before he started filming TLJ.

I'm sorry but it's not what I called a movie review, he's just putting some thoughts into it.
 

Angel DvA

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,232
What's wrong with YouTube critics ? I watched more interesting things on YouTube than I did in mainstream media.
 

Punished Dan

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,246
Just got back from seeing it for the first time.
I'll keep it short, I didn't like the first half of the movie all that much. I really liked the second half of the movie, liked it a lot.
 

Visanideth

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
4,771
Even if it were his formal review on "The Last Jedi," would it really prompt anyone who was approaching it openly to say "this guy gave a blowjob to disney?"

That's basically evidence of starting from an unfair position and reaching a preordained conclusion based on unearned cynicism while admitting no real knowledge of exactly what it was you were reading in the first place.

"Here's why I'm not gonna like a thing"
*finds things to dislike*
"Here are things I disliked"
*frames disliked things "rationally" using invented standard nobody's ever heard of before*
"Here's the metric by which I measure these disliked things. You see how they fall short"

Wrap it up with a couple sentences that back away from that tinfoil on fillings approach so that the appearance of fairness is layered on top, and voila.

You're a YouTube critic.

Thanks Threepio.
 

Angel DvA

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,232
They're bad critics. By-and-large.

I disagree, I think they're a good mixed between average moviegoer thoughts and critics, at the end of the day, the best critic is yourself, I can show you everything wrong with a movie with objective statement, if you like it, you'll like it, I mean people loves ESB but the movie isn't without flaws, there many thing you can criticize in it but it's still the best Star Wars to me.
 

Deleted member 11995

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,386
Scotland
What's wrong with YouTube critics ? I watched more interesting things on YouTube than I did in mainstream media.

It just depends how the critic approaches the criticism. YouTube or mainstream (and by the way, isn't YouTube mainstream as fuck these days? My autocorrect is capitalising the Y & T). It also depends on what you're looking for, as the audience.

A lot of people on YouTube come across as irrationally antagonistic, relentlessly cynical and plain bloody childish, to me anyway. There are always exceptions though.